AI Changes for monster/henchmen 10/31..for the worse?

The problem with the recent AI changes isn't really due to regular mainland PvE, but mostly late game areas ie Realm of Torment.
If you have not tried Realm of Torment with the new AI, please do not bother posting authoritative comments. If people wish to post their experiences, please indicate whether you have or have not been out exploring or playing in the Realm of Torment.

The monster AI has definitely changed.
1) Monsters target backline and midline. They tend to ignore warriors.
2) Warriors/Assassins/Dervish can not hold aggro anymore. Even setting my henchmen far away, they switch from me to the henchmen regularly.
3) In later game areas, henchmen tend to kite the monsters repeatedly. When this occurs, the henchmen either:
a. Do not heal or cast their spells.
b. Aggro other groups.
4) To try to prevent your henchmen from kiting and actually fighting, you can use the flag system. This introduces other problems. Specifically, the henchmen ball up around the flag.
a. Choking gas kills your henchmen.
b. AoE Damage (Fire Djinn, Roaring Ether, Margonite Sorcerors, and much much more) completely destroy your henchmen.

Before this change it was possible to accidentally aggro two groups and survive, with maybe 1-2 deaths. If you aggro two groups of Skree Trackers, you will most likely die. Monster interrupts are potent, and they are very good at killing your backline. Also, it should be noted that your midline has ~60 armor, 70 if you're packing rangers. This means that they are taking level 24-28 warrior/ranger damage, and AoE. This is too much damage for the henchmen to handle with time.

Here is how a typical progression through a map goes.
1. Kill a group.
2. Kill a group.
3. Mhenlo and Odurra dies. Kill the group.
4. Kill a group.
5. Kill a group.
6. Nasty group. Mhenlo, and healer hench die. Everyone else begins ressing. Party wipes as all the NPCs waste their signets.
7. No more signets. Kill a group.
8. Kill another group. Mhenlo or healer hench die again from DP.
9. Party wipes. Everyone is hanging around 30% DP taking into account loss of DP from killing monsters.

From here on in, it's completely downhill. If you fight nasty groups from the get-go (ie multiple elementalists, or lots of caster shutdown), you are liable to just die from the beginning and never get back on your feet.

I have read arguments that this makes it more like PvP.
PVP:
In PvP I face 1 other group of 8 people, level 20, without AI-type interrupts and shutdown. I also have a capable team of 8 people playing with me. My goal is to just survive and kill ONE OTHER group of players. Matches last 20 minutes
PVE:
In PvE I'm facing hordes of monsters. Probably around 20-30 groups in an area, maybe up to 40-50, depending. I am facing ridiculous AI interrupts, ridiculously buffed damage from monsters 4-8 levels ahead of me. My henchmen do not heal like humans, do not hve skillsets like humans, do not have armor and equipment like humans, and tend to bunch up when I direct them to stand and fight. Any type of standard elemental AoE ends up killing them, as well as insane damage from high level monsters.

PvE is not supposed to be like PvP. The reason why PvE is easier from fight to fight is because you are fighting so many monsters. With constant deaths and then party wipes, the game goes from 'fun' to 'frustrating'. Right now the game is frustrating. If it means anything, I'm rank 8, and I have spent months in top 100 GvG guilds, gvging. I know what PvP fun is like. This is not it.

Thanks for reading, please keep up with your opinions on the AI change.


Old Stuff:
EDIT: The main problem now is that I cannot hold any aggro anymore. The soft backline always seems to be a priority for monsters, and the henchmen cannot deal with it. Elona's monsters have much better skillsets than the 2 previous games, and the difference is showing when the henchmen get rolled repeatdly.

The second problem is that Henchmen AI has changed as well. Either the AI has changed, or the AI is responding as it normally would, kiting around like crazy and then aggroing other monsters in tight spots. Maybe the AI was always this bad, and the change to the monster AI helped illustrate what the problem is.


People are arguing that this makes for a better game. I think that particular notion is misguided. In PvP, you face one other team. Not 30 other teams in succession. If you have DP, it only matters for that 20 minute match, not for 2 hours. In PvE, I face tens of groups of monsters repeatedly. If I am exploring or mapping, I am facing 10, 20, 30 to 40 groups of enemies, without rest. If my henchmen lose one guy every 5 groups or party wipe every 15 sets of enemies, I am playing with henchmen that are completley DP'd, die faster than ever, and provide for THE MOST FRUSTRATING GAMING EXPERIENCE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

Thanks ANET.


1) Monsters dont ball up on the first target as much anymore.

2) Henchmen act more strangely..kiting more often. Mhenlo seems to be REALLY late on some heals.

3) Wurms are virtually IMPOSSIBLE to kill with henchmen. The wurms target the midline/backline, and when your henchmen get hit, they run away. The wurm then goes back into the ground and comes back up again. You have no time to do damage, and the wurm has boss-type regen, so it just doesn't freaking die.

Not sure what's going on. If they want to change monster AI fine, but my henchmen are dying all over the place now.

Anyone else seeing this change? It seemed starkly apparent to me.

Yup, was doing a quest on noob island suddenly monk hero does a runner and I get ass f*cked.

I do....very obvious in fact. The AI priority basically reverted to the one before NF, where everything and their mother target the monk/casters first, which is annoying as hell. Having to continuously kite 5+ melee mobs is not fun, its almost like playing against an IWAY with uber health and armor and higher dmg attack, not to mention bosses

Now it got even worst since the warrior have a way harder time killing the enemy casters and hurry back to help the monks/friendly casters.

In conclusion, henchmen dies.

Why are they messing with AI? Wouldnt it be a better to time fix Moddok Crevice? --;;. And Pogahn Passage (if it hasn't been fixed, anyways)

ps. bonuses for both, I mean.

They read the numerous whinging threads on here I guess...giving in to the complainers ftw?

Even if they want to change the freaking monster AI, please dont mess with the henchies. It was perfect, but its just retarded.


edit: what the hell do they have beta testers for? -_-

To my understanding, the better the AI=the less server loads=less the spending=more money making.

you make absolutely no sense here (to me).

I don't see how monsters attacking you or vice versa does anything for server loads.

We chased the priest boss in Dunes of Depair for 3 whole minutes. That's NOT normal. A guildie claims he also chased a priest on Elona across the WHOLE area... which is NOT normal either. It also sucks when one monsters aggroes the next mob, which is huge as heck, and drive them unto you (even worse if that mob also has a few priests...)

And it's not just henches and heroes that gets stuck - minions will randomly stay beside you, stop attacking, or go back where you stood in the middle of a fight. They don't attack a called target anymore. Rit damaging spirits stop attacking if the spammer dies.

Now where is that bug thread... lol

I must have really good luck with my monk. I can charge into a group of Margonites, stand dead set in the middle, and they all go after my warrior Hero. Occasionally they go after an ele or something, but 80% of the time it's just going after my warrior hero. It makes Cynn's Firestorm actually good now.

I have plenty of problems with the new AI (stop fighting if someone picks up gold/items, cast/cancel/cast/cancel/cast/cancel patterns), but the one thing that is absolutely amazing me is the fact that even though I have played the healing monk role for ALL of Nightfall, I am only rarely the target. Probably less than 1% of the time I am actually damaged by a spell or something. It makes healing so much easier.

This new AI is making being a healer a lot easier than being a MM. I am already annoyed at trying to play my MM in Nightfall and I'm just at the Sunspear Sanctuary. I am sick and tired of my minions running off to fight groups that aren't even close to where we're fighting, and I'm tired of the minions just running back to me and not fighting in battles.

Well I can't really complain about the AI as I completed the whole of NF with my heroes and henchies on my Dervish and got my green endgame scythe

If anything the AI has improved. Enemy monks and casters actually kite and try to pull other mobs. So you need skills like hamstring etc.

Guys, I have no idea if you know how to read the title of a thread but..

I'm discussing the fact that the AI was changed today, and now it sucks.

One extra note:

It seems that the "won't scatter from AoE unless very healthy" is not working that well either. The mob scatters and when I looked at the health bar, alot of them are still at 85% health...I am not really sure though since I am in a mess of kiting like mad and all the flashes of 6 other henchies make it hard to see.

Oops I just reread your title. Didn't realise they made changes to AI yet again. Oh well, lvl 2 Koss not dying to level 20 monsters was getting a bit ridiculous, so the changes were probably in order

This _used_ to be true until the update today. Now the mobs don't go after warriors, in fact, they run from you. They target casters first and since the henches always group up together, they get "WTF pwned (for a lack of a better phrase)" by AoE's in seconds. I have used both my warrior and my monk for the Nightfall campaign and things were okay because the enemies always ganged my warrior or Devona/Koss when I am using my monk. After the update, however; the aggro is a total mess.

There is no aggro management what-so-ever. The enemies ignore tanks and runs around after the hench casters who are grouped together. After the first few hits, the hench monks starts to run around like headless chickens while the Elementalist hench drops spells like Meteor Shower on running targets. So... what else can I do as a warrior? I take chase after the mob which is chasing my henches... it's actually pretty funny... in an ironic type of way. When the dust settles, I am the only one standing because I was running after my target which was running after my henches the whole time. When I am on my monk, I basically can't do anything at all... If I wand an enemy, I am dead. If I heal my henches, I am dead. If I stay there and command my henches to attack, my henches are dead and of course... I live but I can't do anything alone...

I have played many online RPG's and I know the difference between them and Guild Wars. Most of these RPG's have some type of aggro management for the warrior class. They have skills that taunt the mob and keep aggro but in Guild Wars, there's no such thing. Most of you would think that's because Guild Wars is geared towards PvP but as long as there's a PvE element in the game, an aggro management skill is required, or have the mob aggro the warrior which is what the mobs were doing prior to the Oct 31st update.

I guess it is back to LFG spams to get anything done.

I haven't had that problem at all today. The only problem I have been having is that with my MM, my minions trap me when they bunch up around me because they won't attack ANYTHING.

Interesting, I didn't think I was getting the "mowing down" effect typical of a 16-attribute MM with 10 minions. Maybe they weren't attacking at all, which would 'splain that. For pity's sake, 2 max MS fire nukers + 10 minion max MM should be doing some serious damage.

Sorry to get off-topic--I haven't tried 10/31 update yet.

Wow, can people really stop complaining about this? When the old AI update made elementalist AoE DoT spells far less useful, they complained and nothing changed.

Most of this stuff people are complaining about, mobs prioritising casters, enemies running from danger, all of it only effects purely melee classes (read: Warriors).

I'm not saying this is what's happening in this thread, as yes, there are some things that need tightening - but I'm sick of all the WAMMO's (or DERMO's, that I would like to call WAMMO mk2) bitching about it - yes, you've been nerfed - yes, your strategy is going to have to change - stop complaining.

Yeah, and it's making Grand Court of Selbekeh even harder.

The game is beginning to be unplayable.

Unfortunately for me, hench and hero monks can not run away from choking gas and/or interrupts. It completely shuts my party down and from there on in it is completely freaking gg.


Most retarded update ever.

PS. Choking gas is a euphemism for any other backline shutdown such as massive distracting, savage, cry of frustration and other methods monsters employ in Elona. It's not so bad if you can get aggro onto you, but the monsters keep switching to the backline now.

No, that's not what people are talking about at all. Most of this thread is about AI affecting monks and MM's.

BTW, Anet is obviously doing some serious AI tweaking. It isn't a stretch to imagine that they will be flexible here. Didn't they implement some major AI change and undo it in the past? I kinda seem to remember this happening.

Yet another helpful contribution to the problem at hand.

No one pointed a gun to your head and forced you to read this. You did it on your free will knowing damn well where this thread is going. Care to explain what type of strategy a melee class can change to that will help NOT getting wiped?

As far as I can tell, there is no strategy unless you go solo.

You can take team-mates like Rangers with Pin Down, or Elementalists with Water Magic or Ward Against Melee.

I also resent the idea that a forum is not the place to voice my opinions on the whining that seems to be taking place with a large amount of the playerbase. Where else am I going to do it? Edit a page on GuildWiki?

If you read my post, you'll see I wasn't specifically criticising the thread or the original post, nor was I criticising EVERY player - just a portion of the playerbase.

spellcasting is officially dead.
tanking is dead, warriors/any sort of tank with high natural defense are mute at this point, the enemy will NEVER target them.

the only thing we're left with are spellcasters, who will do the damage, and also have to tank the damage (which they cannot do both at the same time) so doing anything without a live group of 8 people (no hench) is mute at this point also.

hence, if it's late at night, and you're bored, you might as well watch a movie or play a boardgame, you'll still be as far in guild wars as you would have had you played the whole night with not many people on, since henching now will prove fruitless.

Lol well there's always Dolyak Signet for everyone.

Something very unusual is happening for me.....

After a year and a half of play of playing very frequently (almost daily) I haven't played a mission/quest in over 3 days.
I camped my toon to get a pumpkin head and that's it...

I don't like the AI right now, too many problems with it.... i thought it was only monsters but others are now reporting henchies too.

Well I hope that anet can fix it and implement what they intended and that it works for the general population.

In the meantime I'm off to play some other well deserving games to fill the void....
(For those of you who'll say : go play PVP - PVP holds no interest for me.
For those of you who'll say : go play WOW - I have played WOW but didn't really like it much. Mostly due to the cartoon graphics and endless grind with little or no story)

PS I'll be watching the forums and hope to see a "YAY! they fixed it" thread shortly....coz I truly luv this game!

TES4 gets all my time now, this new AI issue makes me glad that I cancelled my game and put my money in Knights of the Nine

This is really bad...mainly because of the addition of the dervish. They always target the casters and has ALOT of AoE attacks, and since henchies always bunch up, you guess what happens? When you get more toward the end game, its harder and harder to play with henchies against the lvl 24 and higher mobs, especially if you are not playing as a backline class like monk that knows everything that's going on and can direct a retreat before its too late.

They did something, I was in Domain of Fear today..well I got raped so bad it wasn't even funny. Why? There are a bunch of eles there, they targeted me most of the time, but when I had Mind Freeze on trying to get closer to run..THE HENCHIES RAN RIGHT UP NEXT TO ME AND GOT DEEP FREEZED AND ICE SPIKES..SPIKED. They haven't done that before today, so I can't go back to that place anymore..not worth it.

Also that Madness titans whatever their name is, Dervish enemies, just totally go around me and target henchies and rape them. Before they only targeted me, it is very unfun to play when high damage enemies go to your casters. It's not easy to control yourself and your henchies at same time.

Didn't they implement some drastic AI change that they yanked shortly after? I seem to remember this.

I think it's unfair for people to be critical of those complaining about the new (and clunky) AI when we have--since the inception of Guild Wars--been treated to what has otherwise been an untouched AI code.. and a very workable one, I might add.

Sure, changes were made with AoE--but this was more of a reactionary change. The monsters still followed their standard targetting schedule. However, when targetted with an AoE, they scattered--and I adapted. From that point on, I brought an AoE as a panic button for when things got nasty.

Beyond that, the AI code was somewhat predictable. People understand the AI considered a number of factors in choosing targets--damage taken, distance, armor class.. with enough skill and planning, it could be balanced. Hell, I've used terrain to mitigate aggro.

Now, though.

For a few days, every monster was auto-lock on a warrior, regardless of everything else happening.

I haven't stepped into PvE since the Halloween event began, but apparently now the situation is completely reversed.. ?

The skill use AI is a bit borked, as well. It's interesting to see the henchies get locked between using two skills, unsure of which one to use, but determined to use both.

Kiting, as well, with henchies, no longer works--'cause when you move, they all stop what they're doing and move, too.

And did they always auto-attack the target I have selected--but not actually called?

Here's hoping for some feedback from Anet as to what they're trying to do, 'cause things are real confusing right now. I would like to know if this is supposed to be the new rule, or simply a very awkward exception.

I'm glad I finished the game yesterday. Now I can solo farm/explore while they mess around with the AI and pretty much be uneffected.

Oi, that quest to get to Kamadan from LA was fun. Thinking hell, it can't be too hard, I go in with my warrior, a monk friend, and henches. Quickly found that tanking is not possible, the mobs avoid me despite proper aggro tactics. Even after being knocked down a few times and with the monk a mile away, they still attack her and ignore me completely. Soloing it ftw. Can only imagine what rougher areas with tougher/more spawns are like now. PvP ftw 'til AI is fixed. <_<

I thought I was doing something wrong on a quest called "The troubled keeper" I have tried it a few times, it is a masters quest and have gotten to the 6th wave everytime. Until tonight... I cant even make it past the first. The mobs go straight for the quest guy your suppose to protect and wipe him out in seconds.

This change explains a lot, and did they do a similar change a few days ago? Cause my henches decided not to work then, and now its worse....much much worse.

Roll back please, Im sick of getting my ass handed to me, I try to control my aggro by kiting or backing up and the warriors stop attacking and the casters charge in. I dont want this to be another stupid MMORPG where I have to LFG for hours on end.

Henchmen are the best thing guildwars has going for itself, if they don't function guildwars is dead.

I just tested a few different mobs out with playing my monk as the healer to see how things are changing with all these updates. Only had Tahlkora as the other monk, and she was protection. I fought beetles, Kourna soldiers, and margonites. Yes the casters get targeted more, but I think it's only one factor in the whole problem here.

The key was flagging the map for my henchmen so I could actually kite things around. If the map's not flagged, the henchmen will follow your even slightest movement instead of fighting. This causes problems when the warriors and other melee classes do have the aggro but then lose it cause they rather be close to you.

Henchmen are kiting very well though. I didn't have an issue with that.

The enemy AI has taken very strongly to spiking. I died at one point when I tested taking on two groups at once. It didn't help that there was a boss that can do 200+ damage in a single hit, hehe. The moment I was rezzed I got hit with 5 Stone Daggers and 2 other earth spells. I died again almost instantly. Even in other moments I was getting spiked pretty strongly, especially from Margonite paragons and mesmers. When the mobs did turn on me and target me, it wasn't just one. It was at least 3 or 4. I'd go from 100% life to 20% life in a second or two. This was also the case against a necro Kourna boss and his crew.

I even tested fighting Margonites in the Realm of Fear area that has the zone effect that makes skills cost 40% more energy. That place isn't an easy place to monk at. The biggest problem I have is being the only player and being the monk. To actually target and find the next target that should be taken down distracts me from focusing on healing my team. And letting the henchmen pick the targets themselves is just really bad.

A good thing though is that the henchmen are now targeting what I was. Before it didn't matter how many times I called the target, I just couldn't get them to stay focused once I switched back to healing the team.

For the most part I think the changes are logical and were needed. The AI before was TOO easy. In this I mean that it was ridiculous that everything went after Koss as if he was holding a gear back in the old days of farming SF. And I should not be able to run into a group of Margonites first with my henchies and not get attacked once. That's how it was. Of course, having to kite more doesn't make the game more fun...

I tested out the MM too. I still find it buggy with minions not attacking. My biggest problem is the Flesh Golem. He takes 5-10 seconds to realize there is a battle going on and another 5-10 seconds to realize I am on the run after the battle is done.

Just my observations from a quick testing of different situations. Obviously these could be isolated cases and just my bad/good luck, and maybe I just like more pressure while playing a monk, but I still found using heroes and henchmen playable.

There are still plenty of serious problems in the AI, don't get me wrong, but this thread was more about addressing the AI going after casters now, to which I think won't be so bad once other problems are fixed. Though if it means less use of heroes and henchmen and more room in parties for players, then I love this update I'm just willing to wait and see how it will get fixed/changed (if at all) instead of just panicking that it's the end of the game like so many have done with past updates and whatnot.

(BTW, it's 3am, so I really hope this post made sense lol)

3 Sapphire Djinn (dervishes) + 1 Ruby Djinn (elementalist with Searing Heat)
=
Brutal battle before the update, insane battle after the update

The problem I think boils down to the fact that Elonian monsters have better skillsets than those from other campaigns. In previous campaigns, it wasn't so bad if your backline was attacked. However, with Elonian monsters evidencing heavy edenial, choking gas/interrupts and other assorted pvp-related insanity (not to mention freshly powered up elementalists), it is going to be more and more of a problem when facing more difficult areas that are just only part of the storyline.

If you're someone who wants to map areas, then you need henchmen and heroes. If you want to explore on your own, then you need henchmen and heroes.

If henchmen and heroes die repeatedly to normal groups, you're not going to get anywhere. This update is totally BS. The problem is having your backline get shutdown, whereas before you could control your aggro. If the warrior can never hold any aggro at all, then all you have to do is watch your monks get edenied, distracted and shut down. Once your monks die, the rest of your party will follow shortly after.

This is not mentioning the fact that DP is consistently being acquired, making future encounters even more hazardous.



EDIT: TO KHA

I've been discussing this with a friend of mine as well. He also hasn't noticed too much a difference, like you. I think the issue is that you guys are both monking.

When you are a frontline character (my main character is a warrior), you depend on your backline to stay up - and you really can't help them unless you are using shouts. Even then, versus a spell heavy group, a warrior can just flail around and direct the damage.

The problem is at the slightest hint of trouble the monks start dropping. No matter how you look at it henchmen monks cannot tank multiple level 24 dervishes and warriors, on top of ele damage and assorted edenial/hexes. If you want to do something that's not directly related to game progression, you might as well kiss it goodbye, because as any other class you really won't have the ability to, later on.

Hmm i just started withnessing some strange hench behavior to :P
My MM hero who was always getting targeted, hostile minions and he would die seconds after being ressed.
before this update i did notice that healer henchies sometimes used a skill and canceled it until they were out of energy :|

Since this last update, I've been having a hard time controlling, in particular, my monk heros.

I was in the second to last NF mission earlier with a human monk, 2 warriors, myself (ele) and 1 other person that I don't remember. We had 3 heros with us, 1 of them was my Tahlkora. All of us died, except 1 warrior, the human monk, and another monk hero. The 1 monk hero got res on the other warrior, and one of them got res on my Tahlkora. Problem was, everybody was a bit spaced out. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get Tahlkora to effectively do anything at all while being dead. She would run toward the warrior to heal it, start casting the spell and run away cancelling in in the process. Or, she would start casting 1 spell, then interrupt it herself to start casting another and then stop casting that and be at about 4 energy or so. Repeat process for about 3 minutes. If I tried to tell her to res, she'd either start casting it and cancel it herself halfway through, or get power drained.

I've also noticed the earth henchie continually trying to cast a spell over and over and over. It's like the heal sig clicky when you move while casting it. She does it repeatedly, about 10 or 15 times, but it's not happening because she's moving. She's quite stationary while this happens.

It would be nice to have some official word on this undocumented major change, but I trust Anet to tweak all this eventually. Including heroes casting spells and cancelling them right away... it's not really helpful if the ele hero starts a battle with half energy just because he canceled Rodgort's invocation twice, thus not triggering the attument(s) energy return.....

AOE changes...thank you Anet.

They do not work as stated ont he web site at all lol.

All the enemy seem to group together on one target and my Ele Hero just nukes them and they DO NOT run...back to the good old days for eles.

Only enermy char type is a problem, thats the enemy monks, you hit them once and they run off in the direction of another group, so you dont follow and they come back and you start again....Unless you surround him with your 3 hero's and 4 henchman, then it's over in seconds.