Who/what is to blame for PUG numbers dropping?

I personally dont believe or have noticed PUG numbers dropping, but by reading most threads recently, alot of you do.

Most threads in the last few weeks seem to deteriate into an arguement about PUGs and how there are fewer of them. The they start blaming certain aspect of the game;

The introduction of Heroes.
The party search feature.
The use of AI and henches.
The campaigns thinning the player numbers out.
The use of websites like guildwiki to find generic builds.
Not using "proper" builds, or more accurately the builds which they want you to use.

Basically blaming everyone and everything except themselves or the real course of the problem.

I say the real course of the problem, but its really just my opinion obviously. An opinion that I have seen a few posters agree with though.

The reason I believe PUGs numbers may be dropping, or the reason why people are resorting to using henches/heroes is because of the attitudes of playing inside the PUGs.

From my personal experience and the experience of others, the vast majority of PUGs are nothing more then immature, thoughtless, anti-social idiots.

(Im not suggesting that 100% of PUGs are bad. The odd few are fine, but rare. And im not anti-PUG. I have used them now and again to do hard missions or exploration.)

Examples;

You enter a PUG and you asked do you a certain skill. If not your kicked without a single word.
You enter a PUG and within 2 seconds, and no talking, they start the mission while your setting skills.
You enter a PUG and no one talks to anyone.
You enter a PUG and the entire time is spent arguing about which way to go and how to do the mission.
You enter a PUG and someone wants to be trigger-happy and kill everything in sight despite you drawing "no-go" lines all over the map.
You enter a PUG and you may be the leader, and you give directions which no one follows.
You enter a PUG as a Necro and ask the other Necro is their an MM, and they say no. Once inside the mission, they start using your corpses.

The list could go on. While alot of those may contribute, to one degree or another, I dont believe they are the main reason.

The popularity and use of PUGs is falling due to the people inside them. The lack of communication or patience, the elite and "I know better" atittudes. But people would rather blame the heroes and henches just because they offer an effective alternative.

Ther is also the "show-off" factor. Alot of people want to play in PUGs to show off weapons, and armor and to kill alot of stuff to look good. They then blame someone else when it goes wrong. They dislike heroes and henches because if anything goes wrong, they have no one to blame but themselves.

We need to stop blaming everything else and stop winging that people dont use PUGs, especially when the main reason are the people in them and their attitudes.

Unfortunately I dont see it being fixed because most people who play guildwars are probably males between 13-25. Most of which are teenagers who play online games because they havent learnt how to socialise probably and they find it easier to talk to people online. Meaning they dont have to look people in the face and feel the consiquences if their rude to them. I would bet that most rude players in GWs, wouldnt speak the same way to you face-to-face down the pub.

But as for the 20+ players. There isnt any excuse for them to act that way, unless they never grow out of the teenage anx, but thats just sad. If your an older, more mature player and you behave in the way Ive described, then you have no right to complain if PUG numbers are falling.

Dont blame heroes, or other new systems in the game. Grow up and accept responsibilty for how you behave.

Any players who come into the game and experience harrassment in PUGs are going to instantly dislike using them and resort to AI. Its not rock science. Its no different to being jumped on down a certain path when you walk home. Your going to avoid that same ruite from then on if its really bad.

[edit]

Some have made comments along the lines of...TEAMWORK

"You should do as your told in a pug and change your skills and builds to help the team, because its team work."

Which in a way is partly true. But only if your "asked" politely. If its suggested that you change your build and the leader goes on to explain why and gives you the chance to learn then thats ok. Chances are you'l agree and learn a valuable lesson about that mission or quest for future reference.

There are also times when (for instance) you might be an MM, but in this particular mission, no bodies exist. So the leader "suggests" changing and explains why. So you go degen or alternative instead.

It only takes politeness and communication.

But Ive rarely seen that. My experience is that you enter a PUG and they say *bluntly* demand a skill change. If you ask why, or say no, or you cant. Then your most likely kicked. There also times when a conversation can be going on and there is a slight disagreement and your just randomly kicked with no explanation.

I can remember being kicked from a PUG for absolutely no reason as an ele, only to then see the game PUG advertising for an ele/nuker...... which I am! I hadnt said anything wrong, or upset anyone and I obviously had the right build.

There have also been those who have said.... PROFESSIONS WHICH ARE NEVER USED

...some professions are less desired in PUGs then others. I.E Sins or Dervish (from what ive read). How are these professions to survive if they cant use heroes and henches?

You cant deny that in GWs, there are certain stigmas upon certain professions. A certain few you hardly see, or you dont want to see or people dont like to use or bring alot. I admit I personally dont like Sins because from experience they die easily and seem useless. But does that mean they should never get a chance in a PUG? ofcourse not. The user might be very skilled.

That either means people never create that profession or those who do, are singled out.

[example - update]

A perfect example of why to use AI over humans;

Tahnnakai Temple mission in factions. I think its fair to say thats its considered one of the more difficult missions (if you consider any hard). This week I needed to complete it for my Rit.

I've done it before several times with my ele and my ranger, so I knew what it was about. Ive got master on it before both times. But this time I figured ill play through factions with PUGs if possible....

...first pug we had 3 leavers after 5 minutes. We all left afterwards.

...second pug chucked me out because they had 6 players and only added me thinking I was a healer Rit, which Im not. I dont have any healing skills (due to lack of funding to get many skills and choosing dmg and protection ones).

...I then spent the rest of the day posting "Rit lfg for mission". No one accepted or invited.

I gave in and tried it with my hero MM and 6 henches. First try the NPCs died about 3/4 way round. Second try we breezed it with masters.

The moral of the story? I could have been stood there the rest of week trying to get a PUG and Im not optomistic that we would have got masters, let alone survived. Why? Most of Tahnnakai Temple was full of people spamming the chat channel with insults acting like 5 year olds. I didnt really want to PUG with people liable to being extremely immature and just leaving or being trigger happy.

And this isnt evidence of why PUGs just fail in so many ways?

Most of us that have been playing since the start would rather chew off a limb than take a group of unknowns. THANK YOU ANET FOR HEROES.

I wouldnt, would you enjoy Guild Wars as a singleplayer game?I spend a fair amount of time looking for a good PUG but when i find one its pretty fun,i do agree with the OP, attitudes have to chanche or noone will want to play in PUG's..wich by the way will also cost Guild Wars players, because i think many of you know better single player games..a multiplayer aspect is essential!

It's simple:

PUGs are usually not well coordinated. Even if a single leader is chosen and the members of the group actually do follow his directions, the problem of timing remains. This usually results in trouble with drawing enemies and focusing on targets.

With heroes and henchmen, in the current system, you may sacrifice efficiency (a coordinated PUG is vastly more efficient than hero/hench group) , but you gain in coordination.

There are some who would want to see henchies and heroes removed to FORCE players to PUG together for the reason that this is a multiplayer game and not a solo game. I say that's just stupid.

If the quality and attitudes of the average PUG doesnt improve, forcing people to group up together will only result in more frustration and hatred towards each other.

Also, people DO actually group up with other people. Most people by now have a steady list of friends and guildmates to group with. I doubt ANYONE is playing this game solo all the time.

There really is no solution to increasing the pool for PUG players. The way this game is set up in instances means that you can't just pick up a player that you run into while exploring areas like in other MMO's. PUGs really are inferior and only really used for the social aspect. Nothing can be done about this.

If you want to PUG, do so over Vent/TS. People are much less likely to be idiots when the party can actually yell at them. It's also overwhelmingly easier to determine everyone's build and what needs to be done.

TS was used widely at Proph. release because of the collector's edition, and it's dwindled off in PvE since. My guild uses Vent for everything they do from GvG to PvE, and it makes things run quite smoothly. Vent/TS won't save PUGs from being horrid, but they might begin to be tolerable for the people who find a lower opportunity cost using Heroes/Hench. Anet even talked about adding their own voice communication into the game, but I bet they dropped that idea long ago.

This problem only got worse soon after the golden age of prophecies (I.e. People were ACTUALLY SOCIAL).

Can't beat a PuG for some missions/quests.

It's equally pleasing to see DoA banned henchies :3

I enjoy playing with others, but random pugs just generally don't work. Mostly I just end up playing in groups where half of the people are guildies whom I know, and the other half are random people we pick up. This way there's at least some chance of coordination and usually the random people catch on pretty quickly. I think that if more good players played in PUGs instead of playing with heroes, there'd be a better chance to get good groups.

Still, I've had my share of bad PUGs and tend to avoid joining them. For the beginning areas it's only normal that most people aren't used to the game, but later on I have a hard time understanding how some lvl 20 players can still act like idiots.

the fact that heros are here allows people to go back to old campiagns and finish off missions.

From my personal experience :

Thunderhead Keep success rate with PuGs : 0/6
Thunderhead Keep success rate with henchies : 3/3


I only pug with my Monk nowadays, as I find it sad to protec an AI.

The quoted post here sums it up perfectly.

Heros are the main reason, the game has become a lot easier to solo in with heros.

my success rate with pugs is good. id take a mismatched bunch of noobs anyday over a bunch of heros/hench that dont talk back, but they will use emotes! XD if it werent for the pugs id have quit playing guild wars a long time ago. hero monks are great tho since real players only make monks to stand around afk, or dance and run around town and not join groups and just tease the general populance with their presence. lmao

It's threads like these that destroys people confidence in PuG groups. Yes I've had bad pugs like everyone else but I've also Pug'd my way through FoW/UW without losing a single soul. I've PuG'd THK numerous times just for something to do and my success rate still stands at 100%.

People that don't PuG tend to be ones with an high opinion of themselves.

"Why are the number of PUG members dropping?"

For the same reason I said they would be more than a month ago - the game is 2 months old.

I rarely pug simply because of the stupidity of some of the players, and the sheer number of people that simply don't listen or pay attention. I'm not saying they have to do it my way, but they don't offer anything themselves.

A very good example is getting non-canthan chars into vizunah local, you can only do this with a pug. Shortly after Nightfall's release I wanted to get 3 new chars there. Non of the group even bothered to respond to me asking if we could take the faster route through bukdek. No, some even refused to believe such a route existed. Well alright sure I'll take the longer route since I have no choice really. People that have gone through the Undercity enough times will know there are 2 afflicted bosses closely together, a necro and a monk, every group got killed by the necro boss and his mob, this was after I suggested to not go past him but past the monk boss instead, again no one ever responded. On my last run I simply aggroed the group so we had to go through them.

Heroes were a breath of fresh air simply because they don't disagree and you can make your own groupbuilds. This is one of the major reasons pugs are dying. Hero/hench ftw

Let's put it this way.

Can you PUG from Docks to Realm of Torment in roughly 6 hours of gameplay? When you're a ritualist? On the first try?

Heroes can do it.

Try PUGging doing something with non-trinty classes (ritualist, assassin especially).

Equpment and builds matter, so does synergy among them. A PUG can work, if you're willing to spend 10-30 minutes coordinating before the mission, finding workarounds for missing skills, hoping that at least half of the group has done the mission at least once before, and that they have max armor.

But then again, there's plenty of warriors in end-game missions with 2 or 3 superior runes, MMs with less than 15 death magic entering an area with no corpses, monks that bring orison and heal party as main heals, and so on.

Once you outfit your heroes and balance their builds, they outperform PUG members in 98% of the cases. It's simple math: PUGs aren't worth it anymore.

And if they allowed heroes for FoW/UW/DoA, you'd soon realize, that even there, they would be a much better choice.

I still do PUGs - but I always do them with low expectations and do it for fun

if I want to complete a mission, I hench or team with guild


with unknowns you can get
- Leavers
- AFKers, who AFK as soon as mission starts
- people who join the group with sole purpose of annoying others
such as drawing boobs and penis images on the map
(used to see this in Prophecies alot )

2 months old?

The game is close to, if not over, 2 years old. Its been around a far while now, so its age has nothing to do with it. PUGs have deteriated because in those 2 years, PUG attitudes have progressively got worse to the point of unnacceptable.

The same AI that protects your when playing other characters?
Irony

i thought heros could go into uw/fow?

According to Wiki the heroes are allowed in FoW and UW and DoA.

hehe i think u fail to mention that most people in pugs are much the same, i cant count the number of times ive seen people who PUG that think there gods gift to gw because there are a Warrior / monk or because they have an uber build that everyone else should resolve around rather than fitting in with the team.

Good PUGs are like Diamonds, rare and precious, when u find one u dont want to let go. Most PUGs fail through lack of comunication, lack of Teamwork, lack of thought, lack of maturity and/or lack of of pleasantrys.

People that dont PUG, are often people who know what they are doing, have a team plan and/or have become disillusioned due to the points above.

PUGing is unrealiable, its time consuming (just getting that party together), and its a gamble. on the other hand it is also fun to play with real people, to chat while u play, to share ideas but thats only when its not a bad PUG which most are.

A long long time ago when i first arrived at Thunderhead Keep, i tried to pug it, i suggested to every team(i think there was about 8 teams, possibly more) that we stay by the king, no one listened except one (but that team was suffering from 3 leavers), all the teams failed. Numerious hours of play for nothing. So i took a weeks break from gw, i came back and thought, ug! not more PUGing, so i decided to given the henchies a Chance. And wala, mission and bonus 1st time, It was a walk in the park. Ever since then I have always prefered henchies to PUGs, before then i used PUGs for all main missions, and used henchies only for Questing. I still PUG on occassion for fun or if i just feel like it, but the PUG unreliability is still very much present. Guildies and Friends are way more reliable for quests when you need a hand because they listen to what you have to say and vica versa.

So the reason behind Pugs dropping - PUGs being insanly unreliable.

i pug for fun and hench/hero if i accually want to get anywhere.

I PuGed my way through Prophecies and Factions. For the most part, it was a good experience. Maybe I was just lucky. However, in Nightfall, I played a Derv and, for some reason, Dervs had been blackballed the same way Sins had been in Factions ("GLF anything but Dervs" was pretty common). Even though I'm in a fairly large guild, no one in my guild was moving through the game as quickly as I was, so I Heroed and Henched my way through. Since I played 95% of the previous two chapters with real people, I was very surprised how easily I made it through NF with Heroes and Henchies. Because of that, I'll probably never PuG again. It'll be Heroes/Henchies and guildies from now on.

Honestly, it's a combination of all four of the above.

However, #4 is a common problem with every online game out there. The internet is a place where people are completely anonymous and, as a result, their is a lack of repercussions for acting like a complete arse.

Many say that "if you choose to PuG, you realize this." I say that "if you choose to play in a multiplayer game, you realize this."

The problem is that heroes and henchmen (#1 and #2 above) are meant to compensate for that problem. By appeasing those that simply don't want to deal with PuG's (and therefore play with other people), A-Net has really made the problem of #3 above (the ever expanding GW universe) WORSE for those that actually want to play a multiplayer PvE game.

Unfortunately, there is no realistic way to "fix" #3 and #4 above. However, #1 and #2 above ARE in the control of A-Net. The party search feature was meant to help the problem, but obviously it is currently seldom used and is more of a band-aid for a game that is increasingly moving towards a single-player PvE game.

Honestly some people (here at least) are way too "stuck up" for want of a better way of putting it. Do you guys play any other online games at all? Especially team based ones? GW players are no better or worse than any other public online game. Do you moan and complain about the same thing in those, that everyone sucks and you wish you could play with bots instead? *roll eyes*

Prophecies people teamed up. A LOT. Contrary to what some are saying here. People even teamed up for the side quests, not just the main missions. Then Factions came along and it seems it maybe wasn't so well liked, people ended up just not playing it so much, so that there were often empty outposts and hopping districts to scrounge up players for a team.

Nightfall of course, everyone is permanently in a party of Heroes and henchies so that was a further nail in the coffin.

Here's a thought, instead of bitching about random internet people sucking, have you lot even tried to team up with each other? Really, you guys are so great, I'm sure it won't be hard to add each other to friends list and team up for that perfect gaming experience... which also exists in every other team/party game online I'm sure...

I'm starting to think Anet made a mistake releasing it as online only. They should have gone the Diablo/NWN path, made it an offline single player game (with 7 heroes/henchies) and an online mode for co-op/pvp (without heroes). At least that way all the single players could remain offline and stop making it feel pointless to "lfg" these days.

Although NPCing your way through Nightfall was easier, the question you really have to ask yourself is - "Which was more fun: Playing with other people (even though it was harder) or playing a quick and easy single player game?"

What do you mean "IF"? Me and my friend clean FoW with Heroes and it I mean "clean". 2 ppl, 6 heroes...
Same with UW. We have not tried DoA yet, but I am sure ANet does not restrict you from doing that.
On the whole issue, I would rather play this as single player, solo with AI, beats the hell out of PUGS. At least AI will listen to you (mostly) and attack called targets, will stop when needed and would not aggro everything in sight.
Most aggravating is when people could not even read wiki for general strategy on specific mission and ignore you if you try to tell them where to go and what to do. This is a simple psychology. We are all think that we are superior to each other, and our opinion is THE one. All we need to learn is to listen and accept somebody else choice, as maybe, just maybe they read the damn walkthrough and know what they are doing. Most of the time this is not the case. My char is a protector of Elona and I was better off using Hero/Henches in pretty much every mission, actually in 16 out of 20, so that is what, 80%?

PUG haters are thin-skinned. I've had more good experiences than bad.

Whether you like PUG's or not, the main reason they've declined is heroes. Some people want to play with others no matter what. Some people want avoid playing with others no matter what. But there is a huge group in the middle that doesn't really care and will choose whichever is more likely to succeed. Before heroes, for the average player, beating missions was easier with PUG's than with hench. Now missions are easier to beat with hero + hench than with PUG's. So a lot less people use PUG's.

By the way it isn't just pick up groups which have been affected, I'm pretty sure guilds have taken a hit due to heroes too as from what I've gathered people are teaming up less within guilds too...

The Factions hench are far superior to the idiots in Prophecies, and better than most players. There isn't a single mission in Factions that can't be completed with just henchmen, even for average players. While Prophecies is a cakewalk for above average players, many have trouble with a number of missions. They need to group up in order to get through the game. With Nightfall and Heroes, there isn't a single mission that can't be beaten by below average players, and even average skill leveled players can Master most of them fairly easily. Anyone that has beaten either previous chapter has no need at all to ever PUG again, unless they choose to.

One only needs to look at all the threads about AFKers, and griefers in general to see why PUGs are ceasing to exist. Drop into LA, Kidash, or Kianeng and just read some of the crap in local chat. Who in their right mind would ever want to group with some of these idiots?

No question. Playing with real people is a lot more fun. I much prefer human interaction. Honestly, when people do those polls asking what chapter did you like the most, I always say Prophecies. The most fun I had in GW was in Prophecies playing with PuGs.

I know I wrapped up saying I'll be playing with Heroes/Henchies and guildies from now on, but after having said that, I'd like to make a semi-retraction. If I wanted to play a single player RPG, I'd play Dungeon Siege or something like that. One of the things that makes GW so much fun is the human interaction.

You make valid points, but it doesnt change the fact that the introduction of heroes has changed the game forever. Its good and bad at the same time. Sometimes I enjoy PvE with real people, but its now more difficult to find decent groups because most of the seasons players use heroes and henches. Why would want to torture my self with anything less than seasoned players. Usually the left overs are noobs, jerks, tools, fool....etc.
I mostly pvp now, but the pve is so easy now since you can set up awesome customized builds for heros. If you party with just one other seasoned player and you both use your heros the game is a breeze. It makes no sense to pug anymore unless I'm just lonely, and even then I prefer my own company over the company of idiots.

Seriously.

Heroes have really killed the enjoyment for me.I heroed/henched through the game three times.It's really beginning to bore the hell out of me that I can't obtain a regular human party.

Yes we did. Most people are looking for minimal efficiency.
The big problem is that you don't need half a PuG to be morons to fail. You need one moron only. One moron on 8 people is common. Even if you have 3 powergamers, 4 average players, and one moron, you moron-leroy, by not fulfilling his role (whether it would be to heal, tank, interrupt or whatever) will doom the entire party. One MM overextending and getting killed, turning all undead against you. One Healer that reveals itself as a Smiter, so you don't have enoug healing power. A useless ranger trapper that doesn't interrupt key opposite skills. A warrior aggroing everything in sight without waiting energy to recharge using Frenzy+Healign signet. A melee elementalist dying repeatedly.
And so on.
That's why people tend to avoid PuGs. Not every people in a PuG is a moron for sure, but only one is needed to fail.

never had the same kinds of problems in other games like EverQuest, DAOC, WoW

reason why?

- party leader could *kick* AFKers or idiots out of the group while adventuring

in Guild Wars,
you are stuck with the few idiots in your party unless you dump entire party

I'm glad someone pointed this quote out to me. Obviously being the OP, that must mean that I have a high opinion of myself?

If you mean I have a high opinion of myself because I dont go around treating others ingame like dirt. Then yes I do.

If you mean I have a high opinion of myself because Im better then those people in PUGs, who have elitist atittudes and love themselves, then yes I do.

So yes, compared to alot of people who I have had the pleasure to meet in PUGs, I would say I have a high opinion of myself. Because I dont make a habbit of treating others like dirt ingame. So compared to those who do, I do think im better then them, as should everyone.

If that means I then dont want to take part in a PUG where someone is blatenly being an ass, then fine, I wont. If that makes me stuck up, then ok.

I'm not going to apologise for having too much pride in myself to want to endure a PUG like that, just to progress in the game. The last I knew, we had a right to choose who to PUG with and who not to. But it seems alot of people are saying we should put up with it and endure it and stop winging.

If you were at your local pub, trying to enjoy the night with mates
and some moron kept ruining the night, would you just sit there and endure it? or tell them to shut up and/or go somewhere else?

That might be exagerating, but its a valid example. It shouldnt be any different ingame. If someone in a PUG is being a moron, you either kick them or leave the PUG and use heroes or another PUG instead.

If every PUG you try is being moronic, then its perfectly acceptable to use Heroes or henches instead. We shouldnt have to endure that kind of attitude ingame or in person.

Bingo! Being able to assign a party leader and kick afkers, idiots, or jerks out of the group would solve alot of problems. Then if you could go an extra step and replace the idiot with a Hero of the same class.

Double posted... due to the usual database errors.