skill nerf already?

An advantage in skill as in the personal ability of a player or as in the skills you bring on your bar (i.e. Build)?

Because, if you are talking about the latter, then the conclusion to your argument - if you follow it out logically, would mean that only certain "Advantageous" skills or builds would be the only ones that get used in PvP. Again, this would actually lead to what the poster below is stating about PvP...

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PvP should not be rock-paper-scissors. That leads to FoTM's and generally a stale meta-game. High end PvP should really be about individual and team skills (not the build but player ability) and tactics. Sure, there are going to be FoTM's. The problem is that without skill balancing then the same builds would get run over and over - as well as the same counter builds. Rock-paper-scissors is boring, and will lead to the end of PvP in GW without balancing. That is why skill balance is important.

This does not just mean nerfs but buffs as well.

To my knowledge Shield of Absorption is the last refuge for monks to farm a decent amount of gold in an acceptable timeframe since the new AI. Is the imbalance in pvp of that nature that the skill should be nerfed?

SoA is such a good skill in PvP that many people I have talked to say it is on par with having an extra elite in your skill bar. It absolutely abolishes any kind of pressure on a target. IMO, the skill shouldn't be nerfed, but perhaps the recharge. I <3 SoA as a monk, but it is extremely powerful.

Ok, question: what is the definition of a "balanced build"?
Is maybe a "balanced build" something that uses 1 character for each class? This is impossible, since teams are made of 6-8 players and there are 10 classes.
Do "balanced builds" actually exist, or are they just a speculation?

Let's imagine that A.net nerfs all "overpowered" skills: FOTM builds are destroyed, and players find that they are weak against a "balanced build".
In a short time, the "balanced build" will become the new FOTM, its classes and skills will be considered overpowered and unbalanced, call for nerfs will start and so on.

Maybe the only way to make PvP really balanced would be this: players start the match without choosing class and skills, these would be randomly assigned at the beginning of the match, so no FOTM would be possible, and everything would depend on tactics, individual ability and coordination.

Balanced builds are those that are built to handle almost anything you throw at them. Hell, there's even a State of the Game article about it.

FOTMs place priority on imbalanced skills and focus along a single line of attack, and player skill is secondary. Balanced builds place priority on player skill and strategy with multiple ways to attack, and imbalanced skills are secondary. When an overpowered skill gets nerfed, the FOTM loses its only strength but the balanced build just swaps out a few skills.

No, then the people randomly assigned overpowered skills win and it becomes a game of pure luck.

Assasins would kill you on the spot if you suggested this out loud.

Bah.

I think they should just leave all the skills as they are.

All these suggestions of nerfing are fairly ridiculous.
I believe that once a skill has been made a certain way that provided it isn't an all-slaughtering armageddon skill then it should just be left the way it is. I mean for instance... the factions boss... Shiro Tagachi. His skills are way more powerful than anything available to a player character, but there are still ways to give him the total r4pe-treatment. Theres nothing out there which doesn't have some sort of weakness that can be exploited by another build.... so really..... quit the damned changes already. If the A-Net folks don't like how it works then they should do more initial testing before release.

Was that even an english sentence? Could anyone decipher what he's talking about or what his point is? fact of the matter is ..., what exactly? comboing skills is bad?

You could try bringing some skill into the picture and actually plan for that ahead of time and force the mesmers back off of the NPC characters so that cant happen. O but wait, that skill is overpowered and skill definitely has no chance. Darn!

I think that worrying about NPC's at VoD is somewhat of a straw man arguement.
VoD exists to shorten the matches, so using it as the crutch of your arguement against spiritual pain seems a bit specious.
Any aoe will do here, for example, "meteor shower" kills all the npcs at vod so it needs a nerf.
Yeah that sits well with me.

As a previous poster intimated, a 30 sec recharge, makes this skill roughly 3 dmg per second, maybe 10 dmg with AoE effects.
This is not alot of pressure and 30 sec spikes are not all that great. Sure they can get their spikes thru at times, if the infuse monk lags or misses it, but it's not a certain win.

I'm not saying that sp wont get nerfed, I'm just saying your arguement, doesn't hold water.
I feel that anet is doing a good job of generating new skills that are elite versions of existing skills or vice versa.

Spritual pain doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are some readily available counters to it, namely heal party, and unlike spiritual pain, heal party can be spammed endlessly.

To be honest I think you are just trying to draw attention from the real problem skill, overused more than any other in the game, and it seriously needs a nerf...rez sig.

1. If you played PvP on any decent level then you would know that, while there aren't "all-slaughtering armageddon skills", there are certainly overpowered skills. In PvE, this is fine because they aren't really affecting you. However, in PvP they become used to take advantage of one skill as the basis for a build (you know its that way because the name of the build usually revolves around the one skill being used) and it does become a very powerful unbalanced skill.

2. Again, this does not really affect PvE, but skills that are unbalanced create an environment that is not fun for PvP and quickly becomes stale. Therefore, while I am sure there is a lot of revenue from PvE players - there is quite a bit of revenue from PvP players, especially because they almost need all the campaigns that are available and the future ones as well - to stay competetive. Therefore, PvP players generate higher revenue per person than a PvE player (especially considering the ones that bought the skill unlocks for $50 per campaign). This is a huge reason why Anet probably wants to be concerned about making PvP balanced and fun.

3. Your argument for Shiro is not even valid. First, that is an environment where you are 1 vs. 8. There is no build for 1 person (that I know of) that can compete with Shiro's skills. Additionally, Shiro is going to do the same thing and use the same skills everytime. In PvP there is no set skills that the other team is running. It is always different. Because of this, a balanced game ensures that you can bring sufficient counters to what you may expect to come up against (AKA the metagame).

4. Anet does do testing before they release the skills. However a minority of people are never going to be able to test the possible combinations of all skills like 3 million will. The fact is, people are constantly trying to find ways to exploit skills in order to give them an advantage. While there is no problem in doing this, balance needs to happen if skills combination are found that are genuinely "overpowered".

5. Your post about "there is nothing out there which doesn't have some sort of weakness..." Guess what? That is exactly what skill balancing is about... making sure that this is the case on a consistent basis.

You sir, have not played pve with a level 30 boss casting a single skill that damn near kills everyone instantly.
If I'm not affected by that I don't know who is.

I can definitely agree with that. i think the problem here is that the skill balance was too long in coming. Anet needs to address this perhaps by releasing the next expansion to coincide with the gvg championships a bit better so that perhaps a month or so after release a skill balance update could be put into place during the gvg championship gap.

/agreed

Yes, you are right. In PvE I was thinking more from the player standpoint, but yes, the monsters in NF can certainly do quite a bit of damage with some of their skills. I think the Drought is certainly one of them. Additionally, the SF ele in Elona is a pain as well. Interrupts ftw!

And I totally agree that the skill balance is a long time coming...

im not. prot spirit. end of story. they do no more with prot spirit than anything else can do.

What concerns me is that the skill balancing will be done by testing in a PvP weekend. The result will most likely be quit the opposite of what PvE players want. Not to mention how it will affect builds where players have spend tons of gold to get the right skills/gear. I hope Anet realizes that skill testing in a PvP environment will have an outcome that is is supported by a part of the PvP community, but not by the majority of the GW players...

The skill balances will be global, and I am quite sure that ANet realizes that most of their player base is PvE players. I am sure that they will not do something to short sight the PvE'ers out there.

I am pretty sure that they are going to be making some massive changes, this would be the reason why it has taken so long and why they are doing a test of the update beforehand. They have so many broken skills at the moment that many people could be upset by the updates. It should be a very interesting weekend.

The skill balancing will be global. There is not a way to test skill changes to just PvP or PvE. Additionally, if you read Gaile's post - they are asking for feedback from every area of the game. That means PvE and PvP players alike. I would recommend that everyone make a solid critique on the new forum provided about how they feel the skill balancing affected them and the game. As long as it isn't a flame, I am sure your opinions will be heard.

The majority of PvE players don't notice and don't care about skill balances.

Define tons of gold, and define builds where people have to do that.

I hope PvE players will someday realize that PvP skill balances don't nerf anything that wasn't overpowered in PvE as well.

Wow...a lot of anti NF Sentiment...I'll admit I am a PVE...don't care much for the "Metagame"

But theNerfing of the NF skills? Come on...let's keep this interesting or else the builds are non-creative and boring. I have about 20 different templates and try different things all the time...If we did not have new skills and balances, the chapters would be indistinguishable from each other...did you honestly want to run through NF without capping or buying a single skill?

be creative. I have not seen a decent new build on wiki for a while...

LMFAO you honestly believe that skill balances are done in PVE??? ROFL. ALL skill balances outside of maybe like 2 have been because of and came from imbalances in PVP.

Hmm, so many people posting don't seem to understand this.

Skill Balances are made with PvP in mind, PvE is almost completely ignored.

Stop posting things like "these skills don't need nerfing, they are fine in pve", it's just stupidity. All balances are based on PvP issues. No one cares how balances will affect how fast you can kill Margonites, or whether you can solo at the same places. This is ENTIRELY about PvP.

gotta agree with that.

i dont agree with you Savio, PvE players feel the skill nurfs as much as pvp players. for pve players, pve is the only game that exists, that they are interested in enouthg and that they enjoy (well, occasional pvp doesnt make it to be important enouth to care about) no mattter what game is it, GW, WoW etc.

if lets say spitful spirit was nurfed to the point that you cant use it anymore, dont u think that you would start seing waaay less necros around? thats just an example btw. PvE players care about skills and build as much as PVPers, we dont just mindlessly put skills on a skill bar and run out of the portal. we read skills, theres skills that we use all the time (relatevly) and skills we never use, and skills we used to love but now threre useless, and WE ARE upset about them as mucha s PVPers.

PvPers go to HA to gain more fame to have a pretty emote, we go to farm to gain more gold to have pretty armors. PvPers have cookie cutter builds (like IWAY) to farm fame (or guild rank, but not with IWAY ) easily, we have our own cookie cutters to farm gold easily (like 55 monks)

we have party builds and strategies just like you guys, and its just not fair that ANET doesnt seem to consider PVE in skill nurfs. If SF is gonna be nurfed, so what, i have to go back to the same old boring echo - meteor shower to provide enouth damage to kill a mob of 10 lvl 28 monsters? (that was an example as well, dont flame )

The majority of casual players don't register for forums. They just play the game a few hours at a time, come up with their own builds, generally have their own fun. Many of them do play PvP on a semiregular basis, even if they aren't very good at it.

The chances that a casual player will randomly come up with a power build is slim. How many PvE necros out there do you think are using SS? Probably not half, probably not even a quarter. The majority of the PvE crowd will be casual players who slap on whatever elite they want, whether it be Flesh Golem, Life Transfer, Flourish, or no elite at all. The power PvE crowd, a noticably smaller group, will be divided among the more popular/stronger elites, of which Spiteful Spirit is one among several. The farmers, also a smaller group, will also be divided.

Were SS to be nerfed, some farmers and power PvE players would feel it. Farmers will complain for a day before the next popular farming build comes out, power PvE players will just switch to another strong Elite. PvErs' fun doesn't die from nerfs, unless you were having loads of fun using an overpowered skill against hordes of dumb AI.

...

Of course, you could just tell us how many farming builds rely upon overpowered PvP skills and then explain how they're not being badly abused in PvE. If there was a skill that, through some slip in the system, made you permanently invincible in PvE but not in PvP, do you think that it wouldn't be nerfed? Arenanet doesn't seem to like braindead farming builds.

No, most PvErs don't, to my extreme disappointment. And I'm more of a PvEr.

Doesn't Heroes count as a group formation and strategy?

My PC + Heroes worked that way: Me as SS for hexing + Barbs for Olias, Olias for MM, General Morgahn with "They're on Fire," and Zhed with Searing Flames, which triggers "ToF."

Although I agree, most PvErs don't think like that and just throw any 3 random builds together. (groan)

But you have an 8 person party, whether you like it or not...

(And if they nerf SS, that's going to be a permanent game-quit for me, unless they madly buff other Necro elites. There aren't really any other "strong" Necromancer elites for PvE. )

I PvE, I PvP. PvP matters waaaay more. I mean, finding a build against AI is easy. Finding one to an endless amount of oppositional forces is very very tough. stop your god damn flames, and lets keep this civilized.

I like Reaper's Mark myself....gonna watch it get nerfed soon.

But i doubt SS will be nerfed, its good, but its not destroying mobs instantly. and its not like the metagame is based on it atm.

Weird that some players seem to think skill balancing does not affect PvE. Of course it does!

I make much effort in putting together good working hero teams. The balance in such teams depends very much on timing and calculation. Skills are triggered from left to right (with some exeptions). This means that on the moment a skill more left in the skill bar becomes available the computer ai will try to execute it. When something changes, e.g. in energy cost or recharge time, you need to re-calculate if skills still become available in the right order. If not, the whole system might collapse... Making the build completely useless!

Another thing is that special monster skills never change. Skill balancing would be no problem in PvE if it worked out equally for every creature on the map like in PvP, but that is not the case...

ANYHOW....

Aside from the skills that are going to invariably be made worse..... hopefully Dervish and Paragon skills and NOT any Assassin skills.... I hope that a few skills that are currently useless will be made better instead.

Admittedly... skills which for some people seem useless might actually be useful for others. For instance, I never found any effective use for that skill which makes casting half-range spells quicker etc since I didn't know of that many half-range spells and thought it applied only to the few assassin spells that involved throwing daggers. I have since learnt that its useful for monks.... so..... while I would have considered it underpowered, others considered it overpowered (but then that was genuinely bugged from what I heard and has since been fixed)...

But still... some skills need pumping up. I have no idea why Distortion was completely nerfed into uselessness, but it could do with re-pumping (something which I know will never happen).

Yes, of course, I just cast prot spirit on all 8 members of my party...

Let me guess u play assassin? Seems a bit selfish if u prefer the sin and expect them to nerf other classes but the sin. The thing about nerfs is that most skills ARE interrelated. If you change a few skills say dealing with shouts, then other skills that are also related to shouts would be affected and need changes. That's the idea of balance - its an intricate dance.

Distortion : nerfed(or balanced) because perhaps it was considered overpowered in comparison to other evasion stances. (Admittedly arguable)

Nerfing sins would be stupid, you dont see them in groups of four (with 2 monks) owning hoh or drasticly hoarding ectos.

Some like pve some like pvp and most like both .

I think the good ol spirit spam needs some re thinking not because its paticuarly over powerd but because it encourages camping and thats no fun
(I guess traps can do but they are easy enough to go round).

Yes. I play Assassin... typically Assassin / Mesmer. Doesn't take a degree in rocket-science to work it out. In fact its listed to the left of this post under my avatar. ^_^

But there is method to my madness, and my "selfishness". That is to say that the Dervish and Paragon, listed by myself for tweaking... are the newer Nightfall classes... and that includes all their skills. Most Assassin skills have been around since the release of Factions and as such shouldn't need much adjusting... whereas the entire function of the Dervish and Paragon hasn't been as thoroughly tested and tweaked yet.... and hence is more likely to need..... well..... more of it.
Its not completely unreasonable to assume that the longer something has been around and updated for, the better balanced it should be.... right?


But its practically the ONLY truly defensive skill the Mesmer class has! Likewise their only effective heal involves feigning injury (Illusion of Weakness)... Not fun. Made self-defence as an assassin (without shadow-stepping) very difficult..... before I figured out how to stick Dark Escape / Feigned Neutrality with Illusionary Weaponry.... ^_^

Yes because all 8 of your party are being attacked at the same time...... and if they are, spread out. if you cant understand that logic, you deserve a party wipe.