How to make Mesmers more wanted in PvE

This should now be in the Suggestion Forum.

We all know one of the least wanted professions in the game is the Mesmer.

The profession seems to be focused on slowly taking down 1 target, or completly shutting down 1 type of class.

Both of these of course, are not the most efficient in PvE. In PvE, people want a group of headless chickens (AI running around) dead as soon as possible.

While I personally take Mesmers most of the time when I can (I know how unwanted they are compared to a Monk/Tank/Nuker), I notice the advancement of the group decline a small bit.

So, what do you think ANet could do to buff the Mesmer and make it more valuble in Pve?

Possible Ideas:
Add additional "mesmer-prey" to mobs. (Like Monks that are prone to interruption)
Improve Skill selection.
Add more skills that affect party.
Add more skills that are AoE.
Tie Inspiration to Fast Casting so its not abused by other classes anymore. :S
Add Party Energy Management. Like a group Ether Lord. (Only your energy goes to 0)
Put some E-Management in Fast Casting.
Reduce Monster Energy Pools.
More Elites (They have the lowest number)
More Visual skill effects.
Increase the limit on Degen based on enemies' level.

Put Willa the Unpleasant in every mob in PVE IMO.

(not that she is actually that hard to take out, with decent builds/players but the average stance tank and ECHO NUKAR generally struggles).

Yeah, I remember being in a group that each time we'd start that mission, we agreed to restart if she was at the beginning.

Give them a better Celestial Skill, for one...

It has become highly competive in the world of the Mesmer with new classes and such.There is one that could be usefull expel hexs or anything that can aid in the Monk like Necro.Then there are Me/MO that can do the ressing and cast aegis or heal party.

Mesmer is my favorite profession to play. The only people to rejct mesmers are the ones who dont have them. As for how to make them more popular, all mesmers need is one build that sweeps the game. A build that can a be a huge threat in PvP and deadly in PvE. So a great build to make mesmer popular.

to make mesmers useful in PvE they would need a new primary attribute that is actually useful. Fast casting is a waste of attribute points in PvE. In PvP it is godly.

Since when is casting fast in PvE bad? It may not be as critically important as PvP but ive never complained.

And in response to the thread...Personally my mesmer, is anti-attack/degen (yes anti-attack! Not anti-melee!) if he can't own something when its attacking, he can simply degen to death. Which i find quite fun.

Now not all mesmers follow my build but hey, mesmers own enough to be useful in PvE and PvP.

maybe a fast cast skill for the entire party?for a short while. If this already exists by bad lol. my pve mesmer is lvl 8

I got through all of prophecies and im at hzh in factions. I think im doing fine. Most of the time, i just go as fc nuker. i go to pvp to interrupt people.

To make mesmers better in PvE, they need more AoE skills. Perhaps an elite skill like an AoE conjure Phantasm that also causes Deep Wound?

Empathy: affect all foes in the area. Win.

i didnt say it was bad, i said useless. in PvE you dont need fast casts energy storage and soul reaping are just plain better.

QFT

Also, SV and AV could be an "AoE" enchantment, applying to target and all adjacent, creating an evil little frontline defense. Other enchantments like Persistance of Memory, Symbolic Celerity, and Lyssa's Aura could be made to be cast on "target ally", as well.

Certain hexes that could be changed to AoE (adjacent or nearby): Backfire, Empathy, Mind Wrack, Price of Pride, Visions of Regret (would be a PvE staple if it affected Adjancet), Wastrel's Worry, Clumsiness, Crippling Anquish, Images of Remorse (only the "if that foe was attacking they take xx damage" part would be adjacent), and last but not least, Spirit of Failure.

There could also be a skill that reduces the recharge times of your hexes by a certain amount times the number of targets hexed. Something like:

Deja Vu
10e 2c 25r (Fast Casting)
Enchantment Spell
For 10...45 seconds, each time you cast a hex, that hex spell has it's recharge reduced by 2...6 seconds for each target that is hexed.

That would also make Fast Casting a bit more useful in PvE. Fast Casting doesn't necessarily need to change in the way it works, it just needs more useful skills, like Strength.

I seriously love that idea! Way to give illusion a buff :3

Unfortunately 'buff' isnt ever associated with mesmer skills I'm sure that shatterstorm could be better...i mean where's the 'shatter' part (eg, shatter delusions and shatter enchantments cause damage), but back on topic.

To make mesmers more wanted in PvE? It is a tough issue to look at, since, from my experiences, Mesmers are a defensive class, eg Ineptitude, which requires, like alot of other skills for the opponent to attempt to harm someone.
Personally the direction i would take would be to give them more AoE skills like Priest of Sin suggested, let the inspiration attribute have more health gaining spells as the options are extremely thin as it is (ether feast anyone?).

What has been suggested that instead of introducing new professions in the next installment of Guild Wars, a-net could introuduce new attributes, which personally i see would be a nice additition, and to freshen up gameplay, so for example if this was done for mesmers, well you get the idea.

New and more felxible elites, as most or almost all of the newer elites that i have seen are more PvP orientated (i mean extend conditions...seriously), and could use a few more PvE orientated spells, especially AoE spells, which from my point of view mesmers are definately in need of. I know that oficially mesmers are the masters of 'subtle' magic, but with the standard that elementalists are at now, how subtle is too subtle

assumptions make you look like one! without the 'umption'. although - you dont really need those to look like one mr-bloody-leechers-at-aspy.
like ive said - ive prolly had more mesmers then normal players had chars and currently i know that if i am playing as a mesmer in a pve group - that place could be better spent on somebody else. the mesmers just dont cut it in pve - and its the ignorance of such ppl like you who keep them not only down but constantly getting kicked in the nuts. mr."oooh-i-like-my-messy-and-the-messy-is-doing-fine-since-i-have-so-much-fun-playing-it"
the mesmers suck in pve. they were made for pvp - and they need serious help to become party-worthy in a game with 10 classes and only 8 party slots.
and as much as i hate it - currently kicking the mesmer if you need a party-slot is completely visable.
they make a superb secondary though!

I have the solution: Mesmer/ELEMENTALIST!

So fix Mesmer PvE shortcomings by choosing a different class? Well, points for thinking out of the box, but not many for staying on topic

The main problem with the Mesmer is the lack of ability to take on several targets. Now, AoE Empathy would likely be too much on its own, however, some possible ideas do occur:

-skills that allow the player to spread existing hexes to other targets. Like a hex version of Epidemic
-some company for Cry of frustration, allowing AoE interruption
-AoE degeneration is an interesting idea, though we don't see suffering in use. Still, any AoE Mesmer hex would make Shatter delusion quite a bit more powerful...

Pull your head out of your bottom and just let those mezmers into your party for once.Problem fixed.

(Same thing goes for assassins.)

Fast casting in PvE is not bad at all...although I think they should make one minor alteration to the Fast Casting description...

Currently it makes spells cast faster...like other professions which have a Primary attribute which also acts as energy management...maybe it would be nice if it were more like "...and for each X ranks in Fast Casting you gain 1 energy from each foe you interrupt..."

If you're Me/E, assuming you mean fast-casting ele skills, fast casting Glyph of Sacrifice so that you can cast the Ele skill, Resurrection Chant, would be leet!

---

To everyone suggesting an AoE empathy...is that not, like, Spiteful Spirit? Also, as fast as an AoE empathy would be introduced it'll get so nerfed to hell it'll be useless... Sorry do put a dampner on it but it so would. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the idea if I didn't think Mesmers would get re-nerfed because of it.

Well, since Necromancers stole best mesmer skill (cough, SS, cough), there is little hope ...

We need more AOE interupts, AOE punishment or disablement hexes, Stuff like Fevered Dreams (but not being elites) ...

Or make inspiration line actually inspire and provide party buffs (imagine Chaneling being targeted ally enchantement, Imagine Keystone signet ally targeted to allow ally recharge signets, ally targetted Mantra of Recall or Lyssas aura)

I simply no loger accept Me/E in my parties (hello? if i wanted nuker i would get one but i want mesmer that knows his stuff, not the one that spent 90% of his pve life imitating elementalists), at least peope were cured of Me/Mo fast cast healer stuff. Frankly, i am alergic of all Me/x not being mesmers, 50% time i take mesmer in party he does something stupid (like Me/N spamming deathly swarm...)

OMG....

OMG....

It's someone who believes a class should be played as intended!!!

What a happy happy day!!! I thought I'd never see this!

Well how about making the mesmer's skills useful in PvE?

Mesmers have some energy burning, which is useless because most monsters have about unlimited energy (Unless you use visage against a bunch of trolls or whatever). -3 energy doesn't mean anything.

Fast casting bosses make it very hard to interrupt.
Shutdown mostly is useful for a few classes only, where elementalists, warriors, assassins etc. can attack any profession.

Mesmers need more multiple target attacks, and way more effective skills as well. In PvP, the -13 energy might mean a difference, but in PvE, the monster has it back in 2 seconds. Lightbringer's Gaze would make a great mesmer skill, for example. (mass interrupt and damage).

How about buffing Energy Surge again, with a bit less damage but more energy stealing?

Well, i have a mesmer and think i done my bit for the mesmer cause the other day in Dasha Vestible (Nightfall mission).

The other players in the group were soon saying great mesmer as i quickly shutdown and degen'd most of the opponents while the warrior finished them off.

Admitedly, the other mesmer in the party (yep, a party with two mesmers!!!) didnt exactly help by dying every encounter, but that was possibly an armour issue.

I think mesmer can rock (i play mesmer/monk, but mostly mix dom and illusion skills), but you need to be careful with skills.

Finally, i do think a few AoE degens and such would be great, but we kinda lost those to necros.

On a side note, all Mesmer females are hot. :P

I can think of a few ways to make the Mesmer more welcome in PUGs.
1. Introducing more spirit using AIs. That will give Spiritual Pain its life back (I still carry it, BTW)
2. Rid the GW community of people who refuse to acknowledge the exellent capabilities of a good Mesmer in PvE.
3. Know that the elite form of Empathy IS Spiteful Spirit (stupid necro's stole our skill! - LOL)
4. If you're a primary Mesmer, be a Mesmer! Let the Monks with their divine Favor do the healing - you don't get the extra health with FC, and let the Elementalists with their large energy pool do the nuking - they can handle exhaustion much better.
5. Don't play a Mesmer as a one-target at a time character. If you're the only Mesmer in the party, take something along to mess up 3 or 4 different enemies at the same time. I, using a domination build, backfire the healer, use empathy on a melee guy (it eats assassins alive), take interrupts for caster types, (no Searing flames for you!) throw in a bit of energy management & LB gaze for the Margonites(when they're around), and you're in business! If there are 2 Mesmers, have one set up as anti-caster, and the other as anti-melee.

There are no PvE "fix" for mesmers, at least Arenanet add a totally new attribute in a future campaign, or make PvE as difficult as PvP when you really NEED mesmers for shutdown monks, etc.; I mean adding very long battles with the same monsters, similar to fight real people (or heroes). I have never seen a PvE monk as difficult as, for example, a very well configured monk hero, aka Dunkoro, Talkora.

Most of the problem with Mesmers comes from the exact problem described in the initial post - monsters are a bunch of headless chickens that you're looking to execute as quickly as possible. A Mesmer can keep a particular enemy from doing anything useful for a time, or can pick apart defensive or offensive elements as neccessary - but neither of those are too valuable in PvE. If you want a particular enemy to stop casting, you can simply kill it - if you want to neutralize part of the monster's offense, the most expedient way is to simply drag their aggro onto a tank of some sort.

You'll notice that you never really need to pick apart particular enemy skillsets in PvE - when they do have something that's worth shutting down, you're probably being blown up by an overload of damage and there's no time to really start working over particular enemies.

I honestly have no clue what they can give Mesmers to make them useful additions to a team in PvE, without breaking them messily in PvP. All you want in PvE is damage and defense, and if you give either of those in sufficient quantities to be useful in PvE, you're going to cause a mess with a profession that'll drop those on top of its already strong mes effects.

Peace,
-CxE

I suspect one thing they can do, is move some skills into the fast casting attribute line(so as not to be abused by mesmer secondaries or pure dom mesmers),buff the casting time reductions of fast casting or extend FC to skills also.

They did this with monks and skills such as spellbreaker(which logically should be in prot) but that if placed in the prot line would make it OP for other professions.

Just do away with half cast times/half duration of hexex for bosses and mesmers would have it much easier finding a group. As it is bosses and mobs cannot be suppressed efficiently because of their skills and special abilities so the only viable way is pure damage and mesmers suck at that. And certain bosses are immune to certain skills like Power block (Drought) further limiting the class. Basically Anet killed them by making most enemys immune to interrupts, draining and disruption.

Mesmers aren't killed Jaml. They have never been fully understood and appreicated in the capabilities a player has playing a Mesmer.

Very few across the GW community understand the power of a Mesmer in a proper team. The times I have been in a team, I've been told I'm a "excellent mesmer". Usually, I'm having to hench my way through things which gets rather boring by your self (and a reason why I don't play Alsitha Freit as much as I'd like to!!!), yet when you get a comment like that every now and then, it's nice.

PvE Mesmers need to be able to do more with the skills they have, or have a few skills that do more AOE related like it has been mentioned in this thread. Something like a AOE Empathy would be insane, and would also create many new /Me's farming builds. Which, everyone must keep in mind here because ANET doesn't want to create a new host of farming builds by doing a couple of things for the mesmer.

I'm sure we won't see these implicated for a while more, maybe a month or so. Might even be longer if they await the realse for the new game since they already have the new "Design a Weapon!" contest going on. It'd be easier to get the PvE mesmer going in the new campaign I suspect then it would be to introduce them into the current game setting.

Then again, we never know with ANET do we? I think they just might be a collection of Mesmers screwing around with everyone. Causing Migraines and giving us effects like Cripping Anguish in our off time from Guildwars!....

There already is an AoE Empathy. It's called spiteful spirit. Acutally SS is more powerful than an AoE empathy as it works off any action not just attacks.

The cast and hex times for bosses are just fine.

As said above i'm not sure what ANet will do, but piling everything into Dom or Illusion would kinda make the class even more powerful in PvP than it already is.

I would hope a complete overhaul of the skill attribute lines, added with some decent AoE and self heal would go a long way to resolve things. My 1st pick would be to change mob behavoir but then the outcry from farmers would be immense.

The real problem is that people realy dont think outside of the box.
They just want players with high armor to tank (warriors) high aoe damage (nukers) and heal (monks).
They dont know what the other classes can do, for that they dont even take into consideration taking another class that isnt warriors, monks or nukers.

We can see this happen at Urgoz or at The Deep.
I have been playing as a Channeling ritualist with splinter weapon, when they think i am a "rit lord rit". When they see me casting Splinter Weapon they go "omg, wtf, n00b". But at the end some people say to me "yea you rock" (i hard that last night).
They couldnt see the potential of a channeling ritualist and then i showed to them.

For you all mesmers out there that are having problems with a decent PvE build i have a solution.
Grand Master of Degeneration: AlNAgxO7M4+AbNkhD4JAFw4A
Arcane Dominator: AlRAgyO3mz6AGoBGCcAogSAjDA

The first one you spread -8 hex degen to all your targets for 25 seconds and you hardly ever run out of energy (but eventually will, for some seconds). You just have to you the skills correctly i order to keep ur energy pool. At the end is all about sequence.
1st: Glyph of lesser energy
2nd: Mantra of Persistance
3rd: Conjure Nightmare
- next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
*Energy drain or Energy Tap
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
*Energy Drain or Energy Tap
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
* by this time mantra will have ended and the glyph will have recharged, then you restart the process.
In 30 seconds 5 targets will be suffering from -8 degen for 25 seconds, wich means 400 damage.
If there is a boss you should use all hexes, because bosses usually have some sort of auto-regen.

The second one its easier yo understand. Use Echo to multiply the skill you need the most. If there are too many melees, use it on Empathy. If there are a lot of casters, use it on Backfire. If there are too many hexes, use it on Shatter Hex. If you team is getting your ass kicked by a group filled with melees, use it on Blurred Vision. If there are a lot of dead party memebers, use it on the ress signet.
Just remember to use, at the beginning of the battle,Spirit of Failure followed by Blurred Vision (and not Blurred Vision followed by Spirit of Failure, 2 seconds will make a difference) on a melee to get your energy back.
I use this build at end-game areas, because blurred vision will help avoiding damage and shatter hex will help with the hex removal

Any questions?

Actually, all they need to do is make smaller, Tougher mobs.

A part of 8 vs 8 GOOD monsters, is better for a mesmer than a party of 8 vs 12 lvl 20 monsters.

there is nothing wrong with mesmers in PvE. there is something wrong with players. they don't know what a mesmer can do, and they are too scared to experiment. kinda the same reason why they stand in the middle in the 9-ring.
its not a game flaw, its a flaw in the average players mind.
I will take a mesmer over anything else if i have a spot to fill in a party. and especially the henchman interrupters are great. with their superior reaction time (interrupting a .25 cast spell with a .25 cast spell anyone?)

don't give mesmers anything special just because the average player is stupid. no reason to overpower them so people will use them.

don't agree @ Gregslot and Viruzzz. I own 2 mesmers (one will get fow armor).

Sure, "arkane dominator" is nice vs ONE enemy caster. But that's completey useless in pve compared to other classes. Some ele skills are too fast to interrupt and some others can be interrupted without mesmer skills (ele with meteor/meteor shower or by rangers/warriors).

And sure, it's not bad to completely shut down a caster mob by power block. But that is ONE skill and it's elite.

And degeneration without aoe effect is simply uber crap in pve. Some bosses have strong hp regeneration and degeneration takes to long time in general. its only a very weak support for nukers.


Some skill suggestions from me to make mesmers useful in pve:

-> cry of frustration #2

-> (change to) Conjure Nightmare (if target foe suffers from degeneration, all nearby foes suffer from that degeneration too for X...Y seconds)

-> interrupt hex (if the target foe tries to cast a spell within the next 1...8 seconds, that foe is interrupted and the hex ends - without X in attribute Y 50% chance to fail)

-> mirror of hex (15 energy) (if any ally is target of a hex in the next X...Y seconds, that casting foe is target of his own hex instead - without X in attribute Y 50% chance to fail)


and the ultimate idea:

{E} Endless Agony (everytime target foe gets a new hex, all current hexes or/and conditions on target foe last X...Y seconds longer)

Web of Disruption (that i usually carry) almost covers this, so it could just be altered a little to do as you say above.

lol no... not really. it's luck to interrupt a foe with web the second time. and you can't imagine the spell which would be interrupted the second time. thats a big difference to an interrupt hex.

It's not just down to luck, you just need Shatter or Drain Delusions and quick reflexes.

There's a similar thread in another forum... where I posted much the same as now here.

Exactly! That's the core issue in PvE. To kill the monsters you just need high damage output. The monsters cannot protect/heal themselves/each others. Player team healing/protection is superior to the monster teams, so players stay alive while monster die. When monsters win, that's when they do amazing damage fast. Hadly ever the monsters win, because they have good protection/healing.

Also true. Players tend to think they just need more damage to do the job. Or they need second or third monk (so we have a chronical monk shortage). They don't think: hey, "let's take a mesmer." if there are monsters that can be shut down or interrupted, a mesmer is your team's "second monk". And while protecting the team from damage, mesmer also does damage. For example, in UW I usually shut down the other Terrorweb Dryder, then interrupt another. Sometimes all 3 Dryders lost their Meteor Showers. Now, how much monk healing did I just save you from.. would 2 monks be enough?

I'm suggesting:
1) Add more healers and protectors among monster grops. Make monsters more skilled. That's when a mesmer would come handy.
2) Make the energy pool of monsters smaller. Now you simply cannot suck a monster dry of energy.
3) Reduce hex removals among monsters (the monsters may not have much healing, but they sure have hex removals!)
4) Remove the natural recovery of hexes and conditions from bosses.
5) Reduce the inhuman life regen from bosses and some monsters, instead give them better skills (life drain is pretty much useless in PvE)
6) Add new illusion line skills. While domination line is okay, the illusion line is mostly useless in PvE.
7) increase casting times of spells (at least in PvE). It's VERY hard to reactively interrupt spell casting or actions. Spell casting has become faster and faster all the time in GW, nerfing mesmer interruption continuously.
8) Nerf ranger interrupting. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but most ppl think a ranger can interrupt better than a mesmer.
EDIT:
Forgot this:
9) Give mesmer spells some visible and audible effects so that others know too, mesmer did something.