How to make Mesmers more wanted in PvE

I agree completely, Ensign. The bosses need to be the focus of PvE mobs. In fact, it might be good to take a page from Diablo 2 and have occasional "Champion" mobs - a group of 3-4 boss-like monsters, not as powerful as bosses, but much more powerful than normal mobs.

Also, I've often advocated a range in AI. Depending on the type of mob, and their level, shapes the difficulty and type of AI they have. This was somewhat implemented when Nightfall came out, with human groups like Kournans tend to kite and actually have formations of frontline/midline/backline, whereas the plants aren't as intelligent.

This could be taken a step further making the Bosses super-intelligent, as in above and beyond heros/henchies, and giving them a primary and secondary class setup with 8 skills. The "champion" groups could also have primary and secondary classes, with perhaps normal mobs remaining as they are.

More of the intelligent/tougher mobs in smaller groups, even interwoven with typical large, dumb mobs, would instantly make the Mesmer a needed teammate. I would happily welcome this, as opposed to re-working skills.

I think GrimWizard has it - so many of the best spells mesmers have are so focused that if you want to play an area effectively you either have to know it well, or read a few walkthroughs to have a good idea who your opponents are, and you have to shift your build constantly.

I also think the idea of multiiplying casting times & reducing energy costs is a brilliant idea.

I was kind of shocked when I first realized that mesmers are regarded as second-class citizens in the game. My first character was a mesmer, and when I started playing through with other characters I was struck by a sense of constant helplessness. Yes, it's satisfying to plow into a mob and beat monsters up, and it it was kind of a relief to throw a ball of fire at something instead of working through a whole strategy...but I kept thinking, "Ack, I can't DO anything to stop this monster from doing X or Y, why can't I just stop him instead of beating him over the head repeatedly?!?!?"

Incidentally, I'll just throw my hat in with the people who say that PvE mesmers have to hit multiple targets simultaneously and can't focus for very long on a single one, and the people who say that chaos storm sucks, which it really does. The monsters run away from AoE spells like chaos storm.

Mind you, I'm still a noob, so...

quote of the year. thanks for your post. exactly my opinion.

It should be the casting time of other professions doubled, not mesmer. As it is, no matter how much your fast casting is, it's pretty damn hard to react in time on spells or skills the foe uses. That's what renders fast casting useless!

I am sure I can "redesign" an explorable area or mission in a way you CAN'T go without a mesmer in your team. Do you play Heroes' Battles? Heroes are mobs, yeah, just mobs with the attributes, armor, weapon and skills of a player, with improved AI. Imagine a PvE area full of "like heroes" mobs; You couldn't win with a damage only build. Of course, you will start to see threads of people whining, like people whining about Factions that has by far the best mobs configuration of 3 campaigns.

Holy damage deals double damage to undead creatures, Chaos damage skills (or lets say mesmer skills instead?) should affect one target + 1 adjacent monster (monster only, would not affect pvp)

This really is a strange topic... it should be obvious that it's perspective based. Sadly, the larger perspective seems to have the opinion of mesmers not having PvE value. The real reason for this, in my tounge-in-cheek opinion, VISUALS.

With Prophecies and Factions, mesmers skills have no visual effects whatsoever. Let's face it... when an elementalist kills things, they die most dramatically in an envelope of fire or the like. Warriors hack and slash, assassins deal a dancing death. Every other class has some form of visual death inducing deliver, be it spirits, arrows, minions, etc.

What does a mesmer do? Points his/her finger and something suddenly can't cast. Flick the wrist, something dies. Sadly, the warrior or ele will take credit for the kill, but the mesmer simply nods and moves on to the next target. No fanfare, no exploding heads, nothing.

It's funny... when some of the Nightfall skills introduced visual effects, I was a bit disappointed. How DARE they show the enemy what I'm up to! I felt exposed. Naked. But it's a catch 22... if mesmers had more visual effects people would see thier power in action, but it would cheapen a most cerebral class.

So, in a nutshell, to make mesmers more wanted by the lesser intelligencia, we need visuals. But let's not go for the cheap theatrics of the elementalist or barbaric slashing of a warrior... let's go for more subtle yet noticable effects. Blood trickling from the eyes and ears of the enemy. Animated screams of pain from the foe as they battle within from the mesmers effects. The foe falling to their knees in pain as they beg mercy.

THEN, the mesmer would be truly appreciated whilst our dignity and sophistication in battle remain intact and un-tinged.

Chaos Storm has always had a visual

But this is exactly why the truly sophisticated mesmer shuns it. Far too much flash for so little efficiency.

So, we should make all the other classes worse to make mesmers better?! Wow, that made no sense at all.

All Interrupts have a casting time of 1/4. Exactly, how much faster can they get?! Fast Casting is not made to Interrupt it's made to Cast Spells Faster, But since most spells are not more effective when cast faster than normal there is no value in it.

All mesmers need is some group support option.
Every class can support the group in a way.
The mesmers support so far comes from disabling an enemy, but in PVE that doesn't last long enough to make much of a difference. And a disabled enemy isn't something that the group notices as a contribution.
Just a different type of group support is all, whether it be energy buffs for an ally or the group or fast casting buffs.

I think Mesmer needs more AoE spells, which doesn't really affect PvP, but would be very useful in PvE.

Maybe you didn't get it? The point wasn't to get your interrupt spells faster. The point was, if the spells and skills of other professions were slower, you could interrupt those. At the moment it doesn't matter how much your fast casting is, when skills and spells of your foes are 1 second or faster (and with 20% reduced casting time mods), you can't interfere no matter what! If their spells had over 1 second casting time, then you'd have chances, and casting faster would start to make sense. Now it doesn't make sense, since you can't interfere anyway. Earlier the spells were slower. But now everything is so fast paced.

Those who say mesmers should tab around enemies, surely cannot use interrupt skills! The spells you can interfere with tabbing enemies back and forth, must take several seconds to cast. Otherwise you have no chance in hell to be so lucky to tab to the right enemy at the right moment! (Sure, you can shut down one and tab to the next. But that's not tabbing between enemies).

As it is, that spells of your enemies have so short casting times today, fast casting has become less and less useful.

In my experience, the problem with PvE mesmers isn't that they don't have enough damage, it's that they tend to get killed very easily if they're good and try to be flexible against all types of enemies.

Why is this? This is because for all of their spell interrupts, they need to be within casting range of the enemy casters. And to be able to get that close to them, they're up next to the warriors tanking the melee monsters. So when that happens, the melee monsters notice a squishier target and switch to the mesmer, while the caster notices that it's taking a lot of damage from the mesmer and *also* switches target. What do we get? A quick way for mesmers to die. They don't have enough self-healing/defense spells to be able to handle all that aggro.

This is probably why people think rangers are better interrupters in general. They can use a longbow that puts them beyond the range of enemy casters (and melee-ers) but still lets them interrupt, PLUS they have more armor much and better self-healing/defense skills.

So to fix this problem, my suggestion is to change the monster AI so that mesmers have a lower priority. Even if they're up there next to the warriors, make it so that the melee monsters won't shift aggro unless the mesmer is actually targeting/doing damage to them. This wouldn't change PvP at all *and* it would also make it much easier for mesmers to maintain their energy pools in PvE (channeling, anyone?).

Added "More Visual skill effects" to Possible Ideas.

Thank you everyone for replying.

It seems like the biggest problems are; the lack of AoE skills, lack of party assistance skills, visual effects, and enemy stupidity.

Keep the ideas coming.

I'm not so sure if that situation can happen. Spiritual pain was really a pain in pvp, due to its spike potential. I still think the problem is not the mesmer alone, but the pve mobs and skill sets. Making them able to last longer with a full bar (just an idea) would possibly encourage denial and shutdown, which mesmers would fit well. Right now all you need is damage potency, so aoe is more than enough. Fit in mobs with recovery, blind, wards, amoung other skills and the triad of war/ele or necro /monk will see some variety. I remember going in Ring of Fire and spending 40 minutes trying to kill Covertina the Matron with my ele, and when I had my mesmer she went down so fast; the paladins were kinda surprised (orly).

Just keep in mind that mesmers are not the only classes that suffer in pve. Imo, rangers are in the same place as mesmers, underrated. Rts are scarse but they can provide healing and now spike efficiently. Assassins are just meant for a 1x1, it's the class' identity, so I don't think they are too secluded. Paragons can still provide support, even after the nerfs, but they tend to be.. boring. Dervishes are mostly those dumb Balthazar avatar, but they can blend in rather easilly. The enviroment needs some work, so they motivate some classes to shine more in some areas. Changing skills is delicate because it has direct impact on game balance, and immediate effect on the pvp. This "mesmer issue" must be addressed very carefully, so let's keep coming up with more ideas.

I find the first part of nightfall to be hard until you get past the hunger then its a breeze. I never realy needed to use a pick up group as I could do all missions with henchies and heros, I only did pug because its boring with all henchies.A good mesmer should be able to take out almost any enemy in no time flat, the other half is mostly spellcasters so there easy to kill with backfire and heavy degen. its almost a joke, the trouble with mesmers killing stuff is the group never sees it happen they just know its a lot easier with one. Pugs, IQ tends to be on the low side, no offense to anyone I do pug all the time, but ya, mesmers are deadly but no one see it happen.

Inspiration is probably the most nerfed attribute line in GW's history. Unfortunately it's supposed to be the main energy source for mesmer. Adding some kind of expertise effect for interrupts & hexes to the primary mesmer attribute would be helpful.

Kiting is a great strategy for Mesmers to use when tackling those pesky monks and necros that stay in the back of the opposing mobs. Get in, get your spell off, and get the heck outta there!

Your Entire Arguement is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. I guess i'll just have to simplify.

Mesmers already have skills that lengthen casting times of opponents. Ever heard of Arcane Conundrum? What about Migrain? I guess not. There is no need to naturally increase casting times of other classes' spells. These skills haven't saved the mesmer. The simple fact is a Mesmer's strength does not come from their interrupts. Every class can interrupt infact I would have to say that Rangers make the best interrupters.

Interrupts are weak in PvE because there's rarely anything that you really care about interrupting.

Look at why interrupts are valuable in PvP. The biggest target for interrupts these days? Aegis. Why do people bring interrupts just to stop Aegis? Because physical attackers get wrecked by Aegis, and stopping Aegis usually lets your offense go wild for a short time. Interrupts are also important to hit hard resses, to extend your powerplays, to interrupt a Ward that's keeping a team alive, and previously were key to hit Heal Party as well to make a team on the edge start to break. What do all of these have in common? They target big, important spells on the other team that prevents you from getting kills, and landing that interrupt leaves them vulnerable.

Does that situation exist in PvE? Are there mobs that are difficult to kill until a key defensive skill is interrupted or otherwise goes down?

For disrupting offense, the biggest value of an interrupt is breaking up a spike. Most spikes have some components that are two second casts, and hitting those bigger spells takes a lot of damage out of a spike. Interrupts are also great for stopping Diversions and other nasty mes effects from landing on your Monks.

Do monsters 'spike' in PvE, using a bunch of big skills where interrupting one can be the difference between someone living and dying?

The problem with interrupts in PvE is that they just aren't that sweet. You don't need them to punch through defenses, and you don't need them to stay alive. There's rarely a high-value skill in a mob that you really want to stop - and when there is, usually a Warrior or Dervish with Distracting Blow is more than sufficient to deal with it. Don't overcomplicate the equation - interrupts just aren't that sweet against the waves of trash that you fight in PvE.


Everyone who is saying that AoE doesn't have much of an effect on PvP doesn't have a clue. Why were Searing Flames hero teams such a problem in PvP? Why did Sandstorm get a massive overnerf? Why was Spiritual Pain such a huge problem in GvG? Because AoE matters.

Spiritual Pain, as a great AoE DD, finally pushed Domination Mesmers over a brink in PvP - they stopped being *Mesmers*, that picked apart opponents with surgical mes effects, and started to simply blow people up with fast cast, high damage dom nukes. Of course, they *could* still go into shutdown mode, with Diversion, Shatter Enchant, and other surgical tools, culminating in the 8 Dom Mesmer finals to the Wintersday cup.

Dom Mesmers doing good damage creates all sorts of balance problems. Making Dom Mesmers yet another AoE nuker profession - to clear out trash better - that just happens to have awesome shutdown tools is not going to be balanced in any sense of the word.

Peace,
-CxE

We sometimes joke at gwonline that Anet regrets creating the mesmer profession altogether. LOL
It could be true.
You don't know.
By you, I mean anyone who thinks I'm talking to them.

I have no friends.
It's cold here.

Well, yeah, but not if the damage is conditional and comes through hexes ...

Backfire isn't very popular in high end gvg ...

Empathy either ...

If empathy would do adjacent damage, would that really create that much of imbalance? So, your diversion spammer can also screw a thumper's pet, the metagame has shifted 180 degrees

Spiteful Spirit is regarded as damage skill in pve :S

Mistrust isn't imbalancing top gvg games, so if power spike did some dmg in nearby range would it be?


Besides that, my suggestion is to add aoe dmg effect (but not turning them into aoe hexes mind it) to illusion skills like ineptitude, clumsiness, images of remorse, maybe sig of clumsiness ---> these aren't used in gvg anyways.


And btw, eurospike was much less imbalanced than rit spike.


Reworking few skills that have little to no use in high-end pvp anyways would be a lot less work for anet than redesigning all pve mobs everywhere and even if so, they will still have static skillbars and daze will wipe any overpowered AI healer faster than diversion spam, since AI can't ask other bots for draw conditions or blind on specific target, its just AI ...

Another solution: Don't let people make new PvE mesmers, only PvP ones ... (joking )

Another problem: Degen flat-out SUCKS. And before you argue that "omg, -10 degen is hAXX!", consider this:

An elementalist does damage, pure and simple. No waiting around, no hex removal, no nothing. Just point, click, boom.

A mesmer? Cast a spell, cast another, finish with a deep-wound hex, and what do you have? 13 energy left, and your degen was just canceled out by the enemy shadow monk using Heal Area.

You should be pummelled unmercifully for that!

It'd probably be by my alliance - the mesmers literally run it!

Imho, good or bad in pve, Mesmer is the most original class I've seen in a role playing game. It's also the class I enjoy playing the most.
Of course you'll see more yellow numbers on screen playing as a Necro, and bigger numbers playing as a Warrior, but its a lot less exciting than nasty disruption.
Three guildies of mine recently created a pve Mesmer, and they are all addicted to it, because it might not be the fastest way to kill mobs, but it IS fun.

My suggestion for more PvE groups looking for a mesmer would be to rework ennemies skills, something like reintroducing tough monk bosses like willa the unpleasant. (The lack of good monking in pve mobs in NF is ridiculous)...
Visual effects are fine as they are, they just fit the class. Well, I wouldn't mind if all interrupts had a little comic bubble like cry of frustration.

Hexes are a pretty big problem in GW at the moment. Domination sticky hexes were largely ignored in the past, largely due to critical mass issues, but those obstacles shrink with every passing expansion. They are very viable in 4v4 formats, and sneak into 8v8 on occasion.


Uh, yeah. That skill would be nutty.


Some minimal damage like Cry does? Probably not. The kind of damage that would make it useful for clearing out trash quickly? Absolutely.


Is there a deeper idea to this other than to try and make "purple elementalists"? Because yes, you certainly could gut some existing skills, add the energy and recharge premiums that get put on AoE skills, and call it a fix. I certainly wouldn't get excited about relegating Mesmers to being second-class Elementalists in PvE...but I concede that it would be something.


Well of course, but would making second-rate nukers really be a solution? As long as the game is going to be about mopping up the trash, there's not going to be a lot of place for a 'finesse' profession like the Mesmer - just like water eles or hammer warriors or the like. If there's a brute force option I'm not seeing for Mesmers, great, use it. But that's what they need - their own role. Just making a second rate nuker will have a similar effect to what second rate tanks or healers get - a lot of cold shoulders. I don't consider that to be a real solution, but apparently it is one in a lot of people's minds.

Peace,
-CxE

Mesmer is meant to be the bard/fool/dance/performer kind of class that exist in other RPGs...

Now...why do you want a clown in your party?

What I meant by that was that the developers are probably struggling to find new ideas for mesmer skills and keeping things balanced. The mesmer is a tricky class to create new skills for all while trying to keep every aspect of the game balanced. I reckon.

Ok, suddenly makes more sense to me.

Well, Ensign made very good points, as usual.
Please, no "purple elementalists", that would not make any sense at all.
Mesmers are good at shutting down stuff, they just need some more valid targets.

People just care about damage, damage and damage... The more the better, screw shutdown, skill denial, energy denial and debuffing.

screw shutdown, skill denial, energy denial and debuffing because it isn't useful 95% of the time (pve)

It's so true... 95% of PvE really can be done by simply sitting back and flagging heroes and henchies into mobs.

A Mesmer is best suited at shutting down enemies, well, question is, what's to shut down? If your heroes and henchies can kill everything for you, why do you need a Mesmer? All you really need is a way to kill things faster, more effenciently, in order to get drops faster, and get through to your goal faster. A Mesmer simply doesn't fit into any of those gameplans.

That is the entire bone of contention, here. Mesmers need a way to help kill things faster. OR, there needs to be a shift in the way PvE works. One of those two things need to happen for people to actively invite more Mesmers into their teams.

I think you're attacking the wrong enemy. Ever played UW or Tombs and seen those dryder masses, wurms and scythes? An interrupting mesmer is there worth gold!! How about FoW monks and fire elementalists? Same applies to Sorrow's Furnace. It's not that there wouldn't be anything to interrupt, or that interrupting wouldn't be good. It is good! Also it saves you a lot of damage and when your team in high DP and lot's of leavers, things get so desperate, you do want to interrupt. Sheer damage output isn't worth much, when enemies only need to look at you angrily, and your team goes down. Lost your second monk? Only hence monks available? MM AFKing? Bet your sweet behind you would care to interrupt!

There are however things that undo the necessity of interrupting. Minions and pets can absorb the high damage from mob elementalists. Healing and protection of mobs is only rarely done by more than one monster (some places in SF you find more than one dwarf priest, and that's already making the group harder to kill).

I, like many others, have said from the beginning mobs need more skills and better AI: now you can work your way through with damage output. But having played a lot PvE mesmer, I just cannot agree with you that interrupting is weak, or that there isn't anything you would care to interrupt. I'd want an interruptor (a mesmer or a ranger) every time to a mixed composition UW, FoW or Tombs team!

In PvE there isn't enough protection among mobs you would need to interrupt it. That's been said throughout this thread.

Yes they do, but not in many places. UW and Tombs are examples of such places. Oh, the countless teams I have seen gone down with the dryder offensive in the very first room of Tombs!

Interrupting is actually the part of mesmer that works BEST in PvE. It's the using of hexes, life and energy drain that do not generally work good in PvE! (Yes, life drain works in UW - yes, hexes work where no hex removals - I said: generally). And no, you don't NEED to use mesmers anywhere. But it works. And interrupting works best. Admittedly, my emphasis is in the later or end game areas.

The one thing I really have not seen touched on in this thread is that mesmers are great at shutting down casters and for me the few areas in PvE that give my hero/hench party trouble is dealing with high level caster bosses. I think people just are not that familiar with what mesmers strengths are so they tend to be hesitant about taking up a party slot with a class that they don't really understand and doesn't do highly visible damage.

Might have been helpful to make Norgu unlock earlier in NF or not give people an option to pick Goren or Norgu. If people had to spend a little time using mesmers (and hero's might not be the answer since many people don't have a lot of mes skills unlocked) they would better understand why bringing a mesmer along can have a lot of benefits.

You don't need to simplify, but we seem to disagree. When spell casting times are so short as they are today, and if the trend continues, shorter after next skill updates, the amount of spells/skills interruptable are low. And even godly reflexes, and most certainly high fast casting attribute, won't help you there. Both of your hexes are illusion line. Would you have to be an illusion-line mesmer to be an interrupter? What about those interrupting skills in Domination (Illusion-Domination interrupter, how sensible would that be)? Migraine is an elite. Arcane Conundrum lasts 5 seconds and costs 10 energy. I agree those won't save PvE mesmer!

Yeah I said it too that ppl consider rangers better interrupters. And I don't necessarily disagree with that. Interrupting is however a part of what a mesmer does. But we were talking about Fast Casting, and interrupting is where you would think Fast Casting would come handy. I made an observation, that when enemy casting times are already so short, Fast Casting attribute goes wasted since you can't possibly be fast enough. And Fast Casting would be more useful, if enemy spells took over that 1 second to cast. Where am I in error about this?

hi ... yes i totally agree with you.

i have just finished nightfall with my mesmer, all the time while i played her i felt this class was secondary.

my ranger interupts better and at a lower mana cost.
my necro degens better.

i will still take her through prophecies and factions and buy and capture every skill, but this is only because i want a charactor from every profession.

i can never see a mesmer becoming a party player, they just don't have worthwhile skills or if they do then they cost to much to attivate and have a recharge time that is too long.

Interrupts are good, but I play interrupt mostly on my ranger and not my mesmer.
Ranger interrupts are more spammable and can also shut down.

I play Illusions most of the time with the clumbsiness / ineptitude combination.
Casters will attack right through them.
Interrupt with Leach and P-drain for energy. Combine with Spirit of Failure if you run Ineptitude.

When I want an interrupter, I take ranger.
When I want to have fun, I take mesmer