How to make Mesmers more wanted in PvE

Ok, so I have a question.

If it's really all about damage per second, and you can just have four warriors, a necro, and a paragon (six people!) attack a monk at the same time, deal massive damage, and move on..how is that the most efficient use of damage per second when you could have one (one!) mesmer shut down the monk while the other six people go kill everyone else?

Because a statement like that confuses me. It really amounts to, "Why would I use one person to do this job, when I could use six different ones instead?"

The answer is, it is all about DPS. What do I lose by turning a physical into a mesmer? Probably around 50-60 DPS, maybe a little bit more.

What do I gain? Shutdown? The monks are shutdown 5s into every confrontation allready because they are on the ground.

When you get something that has the tools to hold up to the physicals, then I might be interested in the mesmer to disable those tools. Until then the mesmer doesn't do the same damage and it's shutdown is irrelevant.

To give you an idea what I run with in PVE if I have a full organised group of friends, it looks something like one Monk, one Orders Necro, One Paragon, One Barrage Ranger, Four Dragon Slashers. If you want a mesmer in there, it has to contribute more than any one of those characters, which I just can't see it doing.

If you have six people spend five seconds on one monk, then that means by your calculations you have 400dps, 2000 damage total, & 5 seconds on a single AI character before you can move onto the rest.

Your individual characters are doing approximately, by your estimation, 65 dps. OK, take out one character and you've now got 335 dps for your 5 remaining characters. Add in a mesmer.

Now, let's say with the monk dead or out of the way, and a group of four foes remaining (generally, you'll find a single monk in a group of 3-7 foes, so average out to a group of five) that you spend, say, a little more time than it would take to kill a monk on each of these other foes - say seven seconds. So then you have seven seconds times four, so a total of 28 seconds.

With your group you have 5 seconds for monk + 28 seconds for everyone else so a total of 33 seconds, & a total of 13,200 damage done.

Subtracting one of your party, you can only do 335 dps. In the 28 seconds the first group was dealing with the non-monk characters, they did a total of 11,200 damage. Assume the same total damage needs to be done, divide that by 335 and you get 33 seconds.

That means that if a mesmer does nothing at all but deal with a single monk in a party of five, and doesn't contribute to the group in any other way shape or form...you come out exactly even.

Sigh, they were approximate numbers. I don't even know why you're bothering to run calculations based off them.

The end point is, you say shutdown is useful. I say between high DPS and distributed interupts it's not, because what you're shutting down gets interupted and then dies anyway. If you don't beleive me or don't trust it, then that's your choice but at the end of the day, just about every player who I think is *good* at the game thinks mesmers have no place in PVE, for the reasons I point out. In short, you don't need shutdown and what you do need of shutdown can be acheived on physicals.

You still need to kill the monk after wiping the rest of the mob, whether it's shut down or not.

...duh?

Peace,
-CxE

The mesmer kills the monk...so he's dead.

I didn't say anything about shutdown. Straw man argument there. & if all the players you emulate & admire in the game think the way you do...that just means you hang around with a bunch of like-minded people, which is normal but doesn't prove anything.

My point was just that the damage per second argument isn't sufficient. It's not a bad method, it's just not definitively superior.

i only grab a mesmer when i know i have a hard target to kill (boss) and i believe that a few well placed failure hexes will benefit my group as a whole. but otherwise no mesmers in PvE for me.

While you have a point there, I'm just so glad it isn't a mesmer skill. Then every team you joined with a mesmer would ask "R U SS?"

Every time someone says "mesmer", everyone thinks "monk". Like these were the two magnetic poles. What applies to a monk, applies to all casters. It's not only a monk your mesmer deals with. It's the nasty SS/whatever-necros and the elemetalists as well. Some of the skills your mesmer carries even when an anti-caster build, may also be against melee fighters. So what else you get except shut down? You also get less load to your monk. Less damage to your team. If that counts. And in some high damage places I know it counts. Especially if mobs have enchantment removals.


Heh. Either your friends aren't good, or your thinking has something to improve. Or you all just play farming trolls and griffons.

-----

What I'd like to see, is more mobs that would use the dead corpses (or no dead corpses at all). So your team couldn't trust on minion body blocking everywhere. Add that and enchantment removals, and interrupting would be very useful there to reduce the damage team gets.

And what comes to these give mesmer AoE damage spells, I'd just hate to see mesmer becoming another (boring) elementalist.

I dont know hot to make mesmer more wanted in PvE except telling my own testimony of how great is to play with mesmer in the team.

Not long ago i've finished prohecies campagin playing ranger and my guildmate played mesmer we wre playing with his heros as i haven't got nightfall at that time and henches. Game went really smmoth and we stormed through missions with ease getting masters in almost all of them. Later on i bought nightfall and finished it with my dervish character. So then agian me playing dervish and my guildmate playing mesmer went for a bit more chalange and go to FoW and UW. Playing with heroes we finished all quests and completly cleared Fow and in UW we cleared it as well and made all quests excpet the The Four Horsemen and Servants of Grenth ( but not saying that we wont complete them in futere as these two needs some more practice). From my experience mesmer is great class in PVE and great addition to the team.

The problem is that people will just bring one Broadhead ranger and solve all the problems. Mesmers have optimal long-term skills, which is why they are so good in PvP. E-denial is weak unless the fight lasts long, in which case it takes a severe toll on the enemy casters (try denying an enemy Elementalist in PvE, they always die before they hit zero energy). Shutdown is useless unless the enemy has a chance to wait for 1 cooldown at least (i.e. why use diversion to disable a spell if the enemy will be dead before he can cast it again?). All the Mesmer degen skills are second rate compared to Searing Flames, which due to the stupid AI bunching together, puts an entire mob into -7 degen. All the mesmer hexes such as backfire and empath are second rate to Spiteful Spirit.

If the AI is smarter, then people will have to focus on long term strategies rather than "spiking" all the enemies to death with high DPS skills before they can do anything. However, making a good AI is very difficult.

What Mesmers need are PvE specific skills, skills that take advantage of the stupid AI. All the popular PvE builds depend on skills that do that (Barrage, all forms of nuking, SS, etc).

What? You mean as apposed to when i join a group with my necromancer and they ask "SS or MM"?!

You CAN drain an elementalist's energy in PVE, but it's usually not smart playing. Elementalists have the largest energy pools, mesmers don't, and you end up using up all your resources on one character.

IMHO, when you have a strong elementalist foe and you're playing a mesmer you stop them from using their skills at all and then let the warrior go in and bash up the soft target quickly and painlessly.

On the other hand, you can kill warriors quickly PVE with energy denial, then spamming mind wrack and wastrel's worry on them.

Incidentally: the point of using diversion is that the enemy will be dead before he can cast his spell again. That's my ideal situation.

Non-elite, non-elite, elite. Backfire deals alot more damage than SS, and be aware that scatter occurs as well.

I agree with Lopezus:

because that's the only way that a person can tell whether or not they have actually had a good mesmer in their party, because once the battle is over, the mesmer gets praise.

I've played with my own mesmer through all three campaigns. I honestly have no trouble at all with getting into mission groups, albeit, the groups that I don't get into, aren't really friendly people to begin with. FoW is easy to get into, because mesmers are more popular in that area now^^.

Anyone who truly believes that the campaigns can be run with Nuker + Tank + MM + Monk has some serious boredom issues to deal with.

A person who utterly and confidently thinks a mesmer is a legitimately strong class in PvE is incorrect.

I say this, having advocated mesmers in PvE since I started the game, having PvE'ed near-solely on mesmer through the mundane and elite areas. Time have changed. The structure of PvE creates only niche uses for mesmers where other classes are more effective. Increase in enemy health has raised the demand for direct damage and firepower, while effects such as degen and conditional damage hexes lose potency in relativity. Mesmers likewise cannot be given spells that mimic the firepower capability of other classes, for reasons of imbalance.

The fact that mesmers should even require such skills to be on a level field is a testament to the structure of PvE being a pure DPSfest. Yes, skills that deal shutdown and damage work. You can run multiple mesmers in areas and get away with it. In a few situations, a single mesmer can even outdamage an additional ele (echo/mantra'ed shatter hex targetted a tank in hex-heavy zones beats meteor shower), but this tends to be the exception, not the rule.

With the increasing AoE and damage options, as well as monster power (Compare shadow warriors and Abyssals to Anur mobs) makes the vast majority of mesmer skills redundant. Rangers (broadhead/epidemic, or conc/epidemic/barrage) are more capable at caster shutdown and interrupts. Elementalists can throw out more disruption and damage with chained meteor showers. Larger mob packs make old staple PvE skills (empathy?) largely useless - the focus is now on the spamming of heavy nukes (shatter hex, chain backfire, etc). With the current trend, mesmers will utterly lose their place in a PvE context.

It's not like that's unexpected - the pinnacle of PvE is to gather, group, and wipe mob packs in the quickest possible time. Very rarely does a mesmer fit into this tactical plan (shatter hex and dom aoes). Disruption is better dealt by other classes that are also capable of stronger dps and versatility.

Mesmers work, but so does everything. This is PvE.

How to make them more wanted? Step back from the number/stat pumping of Factions and Nightfall elite areas. Areas like FoW and UW used more variety without rediculous number raising, and mobile patrols to create a challenge to PvE players. Make the maximum mob level for standard packs 24, 28 for bosses, 30 for superbosses. Give real skillbars to the monsters. Vary the content of the groups so that even when all on a single target, they don't stand so close together. This wouldn't solve the fundamental problem - the PvE objective does not include a mesmer. However, it would increase the effectiveness of the mesmer's skills in comparison to the situation now. Groups that used counters to end-all effects like daze and knockdown would result in a higher demand for mesmer hard shutdown.

You can't effectively make mesmers truly wanted because they can't fit into the standard structure of PvE. Mesmers are there to make killing things easier and more effective - but 'efficiency' in PvE is how far you can spread AoE damage and mulitply the efficiency of your spells. In PvP, when people balled up, you didn't need a mesmer - you'd blow them apart with hero SFway. In no circumstance will mesmer shutdown be able to surpass taking a spell of X damage, and multiplying it by 5-10 on several targets.

The mesmer was an inventive class to put into the game, but it doesn't fit with the methodology of PvE. When you block skills and capability, you reduce the effective intelligence of the enemy, as they can no longer do complex of efficient things. PvE mobs are already at 0 effective intelligence, and need very little shutdown - the only example is ridiculous single skills (300hp Orison on Willa the Unpleasant -> Diversion). Disruption is easier caused by Eles and Rangers. That's not going to change without an immense fundamental overhaul, and I don't see that coming.

Another thing that I won't see coming as well, but might make Mesmers more wanted is toning down the party size in high end areas, combined with fewer enemies who are more spread out.

Max party size 4, most enemies in one pack 6. AoE gets less effective and a backfire is now more interesting then a meteor shower.

Granted, this would require the complete game to be redesigned just for one class. But there's a million to one chance it might work. And if I have learned anything, a million to one chances always come true.

First, a player who says that mesmer has no use in PvE, is incorrect.
And second, you quote me but put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

As I've said in my earlier posts, my emphasis is on the end game areas. Namely UW, FoW and Tombs. An interrupting+shutdown mesmer there is a very, very good team member. A mesmer there doesn't need to be a better interrupter than a ranger is, since they have other functions what make them different professions. I've played hundreds of trips as a mesmer to these places (as well as many other professions) and there is no way in hell I will admit there is no use for mesmer there. If one looks only the damage output, then one doesn't see mesmer's role right. If one sees only monks as mesmer targets, then one doesn't see mesmer's role right. In the high damage areas that have hours of play time, there is value with someone who is preventing damage and reducing team mortality. As I've said before, sometimes a mesmer can reduce more damage from your team than a monk can heal. That's not useless. Mesmer is not a monk, but protection is one of mesmer's dimensions!

Still I strongly feel and agree that PvE mobs (AI and group composition) should be touched to make mesmer more popular.

Yes and no. The mesmer doesn't have to do 50-60 dps. Your warriors spend at least part of their time running around, he can just cast away.

I see your point, as you want a dedicated spike team. Still in PUGs I found the mesmer to work very well - I can shut someone down, and weaken other enemies significantly before the heavies arrive, protect an ally under pressure - so I swap raw damage for flexibility.

It is hard to argue with you, as you have more hours on your mesmer than I on my account. Large uniform mob packs are a significant part of the problem.

So is hex removal - one of the areas a mesmer should excel. Only he doesn't - monk spells are usually superior because they also heal, and a mesmer can't deal with mass hexes anyway. He has some more ways to shatter them, thats all. Enchants - no real advantage. Weapon enchants - helpless. Conditions - helpless.

As said before, only people who aint got a mez underestimate them. IMHO, they are good enough in both PVE/PVP. Its all about that little thing behind the keyb..

I've got a PVE mesmer. After monk it's the class I enjoy playing the most in PVP. I am fully aware of how they work and they are not a first choice class in PVE. Do they work? Yes. So does a warrior with an empty skill bar - who really cares?

Well PvE mesmer are still by far limited to certain roles but pale in Comparison to all other class as they are even more conditional now with spike nuke nerf

Limited to Boss killing
Fast cast Resing
Interrupt <-- still pale compare to ranger spammer interrupt,
as compare to hero mesmer human still lacking as human limited to players reaction time thou there are some spell to aid this but extra slot and energy require to operate still by far not a solution.

PvE mesmer still rate second last being welcome by General PvE public and with all the bad mesmer around its easy to understand why they aren't very welcome and have lesser need in PvE context

even DoA by design support the holy trinity

Wellll... Implying that a PvE Mesmer is no better than a Warrior with an empty skill bar? Sad. Very sad indeed.

I don't PvP much, but I know this: A good PvP skillbar doesn't necessarrily mean it will work well in PvE. I know the skill sets I use to rip through PvE won't work worth a crap in PvP.

Yes indeed. We have two kind of warrior players in PvE: those that are good, and those who think playing warrior is the easiest thing.

Ironic how that mesmer would pwn that warrior with just wastrels worry anyway.

Maybe if they had more big bosses instead of huge mobs of 20+ creatures, so that there is more focus on shutdown instead of overpowering damage.

One does DPS... The other doesn't...

You workout which one it is...

Hint. Auto-attacks.

Actually it tends to work this way. Aggressive PVP DPS orientated builds translate well to PVE. Dragon Slashers, GFTE! paragons, ORders Necros etc. all translate very well into PVE. Just about any PVP monk does as well.

It's true PVE builds don't translate to PVP, but the otherway just isn't true at all if the person knows how to play them. Factions and Nightfall release both saw me and my friends running through PVE with for the most unmodified PVP builds and blazing through it. This is excluding ridiculously extreme areas like the DoA as well because the game mechanics are just so twisted there.

pvp aims for versatility, pve aims for specialization and adaptation. i think there is a difference. i wouldn't bring holy veil to a place where the worst possible hex is life siphon.

You accuse me of something, making a false interpretation of my point, and then proceed to do the same. Well done. I said people that believed mesmers were a legitimately strong class for PvE were wrong. This doesn't refer to you, it was a generic comment, and it is still right.

Your entire argument can be countered with this;

It doesn't matter what you run, you can do well in most areas with people that have a clue. This does not and will not disguise the fact that with the few exceptions I mentioned, the class is inferior.

That isn't important to the point as a whole. It doesn't matter if you can do many things, in PvE enemy content is extremely one-dimensional, and as a result the best counter is one-dimensional in nature as well. Mesmers serve a purpose in some areas (Urgoz) where they can serve as DPS (shatters) and shutdown (aoe interrupts), but for the most part a high degree of specialized character capability is superior to multi-purposing. Your character will work, it will make the task easier, but raising the characters in the group from 7 to 8 will always make the task easier. It will not (in the majority of cases) provide as much benefit as a different class, however. In those few cases where it does, this is not because of the capability of the mesmers, but rather that the AoE skills of a mesmer can match and surpass a single ele - replacing another class's forte, not being brought for the special capabilities of the class itself.

Yes, it is sad. It is very sad that his point is, for the most part, nearly correct. All that matters in PvE is DPS - very, very rarely does a fight last long enough to outpressure monks, so long as the group of players is capable of rational thought (don't have 3 super runes, 60AL, and tank the Anur Ruk). DPS is important to just smash the enemy into the ground and move on - and offence DOES replace defence in these cases. Mesmer DPS is a joke. A very sad one.

Hi there. Who are you?

/me runs through topic

"Tweak Inspiration to offer group support"

/me runs away hoping people aren't sick of me sayin that

I think this post alone explains why mesmers defend mesmers and other classes don't. The mentality here is, "bugs in your kitchen? why use a fly swatter when you could use a frying pan instead?"

Honestly, look at the basic reason anyone plays any class specifically: Runes, Armor, and primary Attribute. Right?

1) Runes - This will allow the character to get 13-16 in any attribute that belongs to their class. What does more points in an attribute give you? For most skills, more damage and a longer-lasting effect, be it enchantment, hex, condition, etc.

What does this mean for the Mesmer? Well, your hexes can last a little longer - not terribly important. You inflict more damage, right? Well, as everyone says, damage is not what the Mesmer is all about - obviously not that important. Honestly, would a mesmer decked out in runes be that much better than a Mesmer with no runes?

2) Armor - Standard caster armor, with some specialties like +armor for each signet on your bar. Yay. But hey, it is pretty!

3) Primary Attribute - Honestly, this is the only reason to choose a Mesmer over any other class. So any discussion about the effectiveness of a Mesmer, really should be discussing the effectiveness of Fast Casting.

Fast Casting is useful, no doubt. But you can't look at it on it's own, you have to compare it to other classes that share Armor properties (+2 energy pip, 60AL), since for now, I'm removing the effect of runes from the discussion. We are left with: Elementalists, Necromancers, Monks, and Ritualists.

Monks and Rits can pretty much be discounted, because their Primary would not really help with the kind of basic spellcasting of mostly Mesmer skills. So, we have Eles and Necros. Eles have Energy Storage - very useful since it gives a large pool of energy for those powerful 15e and 25e spells. Necros have Soul Reaping - quite possibly the best [passive] energy management in the game, no one can deny the usefulness of SR.

Now, we've got two really good Primaries versus Fast Casting. Let's get the Runes back into the picture. You now have a choice of: large energy pool, excellent energy management, or faster casting and slightly more damage/longer lasting spells. Really, that's what it's about.

There is the issue with spells linked to Fast Casting. I think this is what needs to be improved. There needs to be a bigger incentive to "need" Fast Casting - and mostly for Mesmer spells. Perhaps more interrupts in PvE? Better spells linked to Fast Casting? Maybe even another effect Fast Casting can have, as others have said.

Otherwise, we're left with a class you would only choose to cast spells a little faster, and pretty much no other reason. They shouldn't be called Mesmers, they should be called "Fast Casters!" Just doesn't terribly fit the lore, either. Seriously, what does Lyssa have to do with casting faster? Ungh, now I'm just rambling, sorry.

yes - this was always my fear for the messy. being typecast.
but you know what - currently the messy wont get into a team because its not good enough, and with a ss-like cookie youd be able to get into a team (pretty much always) but would be prefered (or they would actually demand) to run that skill. so with a cookie we get to a position where you can get into a team or you end up playing with heroes/hench/friends if you dont like running that cookie.
it just gives one more option for the mesmer! and thats why id welcome it! give me a cookie that works - and ill decide if i want to play it!
i have a necro - and i almost never play a mm since the heros do a superb job at it. i prefer curses - and if i dont feel like taking ss - i dont take it! but its very nice to know that i can switch around my attributes and get a pug anytime id like it.
it gives me a choice!

- Wastrel’s Demise: increased casting time to 1 second.

this way ?

The Mesmer class seems to be getting by with bluffs and masked assumptions to lead people into thinking that the class is useful, which is something admirable towards the people who really like the profession. I think, however, its time we took a look at our class and think "what can we really do, specifically?"

Answers:

1. Yes, we have... e-denial and shutdown, both of which are not effective in PvE.
2. Yes, it's that alluring... thing.... about the mesmer that makes you want to look at it and think "let's take a mesmer". IMO, it's pity...
3. Yes, Fast Casting - the only primary attribute that has a diminishing value with higher ranks...

I don't really want to wait until 2009 when the supposed "guild wars 2" is released, because if they don't make considerations to develop the game to become more complex than it currently stands - rather than giving us more complicated skills that can't be used in PvE, then those who play the Mesmer will "only" have their wits at their disposal, to get them into groups

Pun intended?

___

But anyway, When my Mesmer decides she wants to PuG I've never really had much trouble getting into groups... I would always have a Mesmer and a Warrior in any PuG I build rather than 2 stupid wammos...we need some brains in a group...not just braun

I cleared fissure 4-man with an Illusion/Healing mesmer once. Then again, the other three were the holy trinity of Warrior-Monk-SSnec. Afterwards, I did it with only those three. I've also cleared UW while playing a dom mesmer - not noticing all my points were in illusion. Nobody else in the team noticed either, and we went smoothly through the area. There are lesssons in there somewhere.

I've ran into plenty of incompetent mesmers, and some masterful warriors. Class has no link to 'brain or braun'. The number of good warriors is much higher than the number of good mesmers, as well.


The issue at hand is mesmers can get into groups, mesmers can kill things. The problem is they can't do it on the same level as a lot of other classes, for two reasons;

The structural design of PvE.
The progressive development of PvE.

I've gone over the structural issue in one of my earlier posts here. To recap, a mesmer's hampering effects reduce the effective capability of enemy mobs. However, PvE AI is already at minimum effective capability - they just spam skills, and can be relentlessly abused by positioning and gimmick defences. Furthermore, mesmer's raise group efficiency by reducing enemy effectiveness. However, quintupling spell damage by hitting 5 enemies at once, consistantly, with AoE spells is a much greater efficiency, and most heavy offence classes have disruption to boot - making mesmers versataile but incapable of bringing anything needed to the field.

The progressive development of PvE is also a serious issue, and it's why people complain about 'PvP nerfing PvE skills'. Let's look at Spiritual Pain. Good skill, very powerful in PvE and PvP. Everyone with a clue knew it was going to be nerfed sooner or later. When it was, people acted like it came out of the blue, and was a terrible thing for PvE (and PvP was ruining the game).

Examining this a little more in-depth... mesmers in prophecies had no Spiritual Pain, and they were still a decent class to bring in a lot of situations. So why would the introduction, and then removal, of Spiritual Pain cause such a problem?

What else changed in Nightfall? Take a PvP example - health of players, by average, rose from around 450-500 to 600~ on many characters. The force of damage rose in kind, with spells and skills that could deal frightening amounts of quick damage. This paralell'ed PvE - Anur mobs have near to double the health of Shadow Mobs, not to mention the immense boost to other stats.

So we have a situation of higher damage and higher health. Ok, that sort of balances out in the end.

Now, we knew Spiritual Pain had to be nerfed. It had already proved ridiculous in the extreme in PvP, and in PvE it had become a staple skill on a mesmer skillbar. People say it was nerfed for PvP, and it was, but covering over the fact it dwarfed the rest of the mesmer bar in PvE would be a mistaken assumption. It needed the nerf in both areas (not discussing whether it was nerfed 'right').

The end result? High health mobs... and prophecies-level skills. The rest of the mesmer skillbar would work fine in FoW, and older high-end areas, but in places like the Domain of Anguish, and Factions Elite Missions, there is a rift between the firepower capabilities of other classes, complete with new skills, and the firepower of the mesmer, as well as the ratio of power from mesmer to mob. This problem already existed because of the style of mesmer damage skills being inefficient in a PvE setup, but because mesmers lost their high damage power, they are in a sense obsolete.

This is also a fundamental problem of PvE and mesmers. You need high damage to go quickly, and that is the focus of a PvE build. However, giving mesmers high damage and high shutdown, in the same line, at incredible magnitude, breaks some very important parts of the rest of the game (PvP), where the issue of shutdown being obsolete is not so much of an issue.

So you could split the skills, in theory. This only glosses over the fact that mesmers can only maintain their place in the PvE running by using skills that effectively mimic other classes. You could give mesmers meteor shower, replace fire with Chaos, call it Ether Upheaval, and it would make them work bettter - but these are not mesmer skills, with relation to the mesmer line and design. The design is, as I have mentioned before, incompatible to a large extent with the current fundamentals of PvE - which have to change before anything is really going to improve.

Spam Wastrel's Worry against 1/2 duration length boss mobs...? Otherwise I don't see the point. It's also sad because the only good looking armor (Enchanter's) is not + health, and the Kyrtan Costume that can be selected in PvP looks about as nice. Pssh, my PvE mesmer has been forgotten.

I think it's more like, "Ginormous cockroaches running around your kitchen? Why use a fly swatter when you can COLLAPSE THE CEILING?"

Assuming you don't care about the kitchen's welfare.

That's my way of thinking

I always love Avarre's posts. It's like sitting down on a comfy couch with a good thing of popcorn and someone you care about, watching the best movie.

"The way she cleans the floor with these people is insane!" is a great way to describe Avarre and those foolish to challenge a skilled mesmer

You've got it all wrong.

To illustrate the chain of the events, I've added here the quotes.

In post #164 dgb says the following:
In post #168 I quoted the above statement, and said myself:
In post #174 you quoted the above statement, and said:
Thus you defended dgb's statement.

In post #176 I quoted the above statement and said:
See now? I did not put words on your mouth! The poster who said "mesmer has no use in PvE" was dgb.

But when you quote my statement and say I'm incorrect, you do defend the statement "a player who says that mesmer has no use in PvE" that I was criticising! So my reply was quite in place.

as off-topic as it was, Avarre did say: 'A Player who utterly and confidently thinks a mesmer is a legitimately strong class in PvE is incorrect.. Regardless of whether he used your quote was just making an example. In earlier posts, you'll find alot of people who made their argument that Mesmers are a strong class. I bet if you asked Avarre about his accuracy on the statement he made, I'm sure you'll get the answer you're not looking for.

Yup, Anet designed and maintained a class that is too complex for PvE. Firstly, they need to stop looking at gvg matches to determine skill balances for GW entirely. Everyone was looking at Nightfall as the next PvE installment, but that feeling ended the moment Gate of Anguish was opened, because the focus just switched to PvP after that .