[State of the Game]: PvE to PvP

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...6-pvetopvp.php

Disappointing article imo. Very condescending, with numerous jabs at PvEers, including how "someone who beats the game needs to unlearn the game," etc. Kind of sad, because some decent, if superficial, info is lost in the arrogant tone.

But the pve to pvp transition is a relevant issue imo and worth discussing. I always try to encourage my PvE friends to PvP more, but many people never really get interested in PvP. I believe the reason so many people don't make the transition is not incompetence (despite the article's sneers) or lack of interest, but because of flaws in the game itself.

I think the reason so few people transition into PvP is 1) the game has poor support for learning PvP, forming PvP groups, and playing PvP casually, 2) the game has very poor pvp rewards, especially for casual pvp, and 3) the pvp community is generally hostile, arrogant, elitist, and nasty. The poor rewards have recently begun to improve (HA wins are much more rewarding now), but that is only for a select few. For casual players, PvP has no reward (other than the inherent reward for winning -- faction is not a reward. It is a tool at best. And emotes/titles are not a real reward either and take sick amounts of grind to boot). Group forming anet tried to improve with party forming, but the system is still terrible. The social and grind barriers to PvP are staggering and many people just don't want to invest hundreds of hours to earn the tools required plus hundreds more hours of time to learn to excel at the game just to then have to spend an hour or more each day just to form a casual team.

What do you think? What got you interested in PvP (or why aren't you interested)? Did you struggle with these issues and if so, how did you overcome them?

I wanna slap that dude. Mending sucks in PvE too.

And... I agree, Blame - there is very little turorial on how to move on to PvP in PvE. I found out what works and what doesn't because my guild *back in the day* ran a fair number of Guild Battles, and as a willing (and none-too-shabby) monk, I saw firsthand what other teams, and our own team, ran - I saw what was successful (warrior adrenal spikes, blindbot eles, boonprot) and what sucked (nukers, mending, etc.) and from that *valuable* starting experience I knew roughly how to build PvP chars.

IMO the closest thing around for transition would be AB - it is mostly about battling the NPCs, like PvE, so standard nuker builds are effective to a limited egree - but if you pay attention, you will see people running good builds you can learn from (getting spiked down in 4 seconds by a SP/burst 'sin and going 'ah...').

Worst State of the Game article EVER!!!

1) Isle of the Nameless needs an urgent and much needed update. Too many new installments in PvP since this place was last updated.
2) I agree, but this feature is also lacking in PvE as well. Especially considering that noone uses Search :S.
3) Random Arena is the most common form of casual PvP play, that's all I'll say on that matter.

Adam Sunstrom some village is missing its idiot. You are the weakest link. Anet needs to let you go for that poorly composed and horrible article. Again my threads about PvPers getting more love then PvEers. Well theres more fans for the flames.

I PvP when I get bored from PvE. I used to do Random Arenas until I got tired of the shit talking from other players. I used to do HA, but waiting an hour plus just to get a team got boring real fast. Now the only PvP I do is Hero battles, or festival events. I spent the better part of the weekend playing in the dragon ball arena. The fact that everyone was on a level playing field, was the real winner there. I had a blast. I think thats the only PvP I will ever do. It took me a year to get my r3 Deer, and I am happy with that. But its PvE for me until the next festival event.

heh, the thread on gwo is about 17 pages now

but anyway:

Just saw the article on the gw site, great thats what we need, more crappy articles.
And if he thinks mending is hailed by many pvers as the most useful skill in the game then he know crap.

He has been playing since 2004 but I think he is playing some other game.

Before writing an article, please do some investigative journalism first.

Anet, please take that crap from your site

As I said in the other thread, I'm actually offended that someone got paid for writing up shit like that.

A couple months ago, I would write a much better article for anet on the same topic for free if they published it on their site. Now, I just stopped caring. PvP has clearly gone down the gutter and this crap they're putting out to attract players is too little and too late.

Lmao, Mending IS hailed by many PvE players (55monk?Whammo?Newplayers? and more) but if you want to argue about the Mending statement go to http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10124187
(BTW he didn't say it is one of the greatest skills in PvE, he said people many PvE'ers believe it to be)

More so on topic... I don't see it as an attack on PvE players, I think he is just trying to say that you need to forget everything you have learned in PvE if you want to transition into PvP (wich is true, PvE and PvP strats differ greatly). I'm pretty sure you don't use Remove Hex or Rebirth in PvP, at least I hope you don't O.o

It has some good information for people who are new to PvP. I didn't know that monks shouldn't bring a res.

Geez, take a deep breath people. It's obvious that Adam Sunstrom was directing his article at people that are curious but timid about PvP but are primarily PvE. Making that transition isn't always obvious for the novice.

He basically is covering some very fundamental concepts for that rather large portion of the Guild Wars player base that has hesitated jumping into PvP.

NEWSFLASH people: most players aren't PvP'ing, ANet wants them to try it out because it is a core part of the game.

It's a superb article that's aimed at getting people to not be "scared away" from PvP.

And it is certainly a lot more help than most of you "know-it-alls" offer.

/agreed, when I first started PvP way back when (sometime in '05), I could find plenty of people willing to help me get into it. Now if I go and ask for someones help they call me a noob and tell me to go back to PvE. what ArenaNet is doing here is good, elitists and Hardcore PvP'ers push PvE people away and Anet is trying to push back.

Question from a long time and successful player of both PvE and PvP;
What is this "mending" of which he speaks?

But seriously I think one of the main reasons players don't or are hesitant to move from PvE to PvP is a lack of knowledge about it and a fear of being treated badly from the "1337" PvPers, and lets face it we all know how a new player can/will be treated by alot of these people.

No solution here except maybe try to help out a new player with advise and or patience and we may actually find some talented players who would have never been around otherwise.

Oh the article is not the thing that will keep them from being scared away but nice try tho.

I'm personally not offended by the article in any way being primarily a PvE only player. But its going to take more than a 1 page article of weak jabs and trash talking 7 spells to keep them from being scared away.

It would help if he didn't talk down to them so much.

Other than that I did find some useful information. Nice to see an explanation of why popular bad skills are bad rather than simply dismissing their noobishness.

I'm the player Mr. Adam is writing to: I've played nothing but PvE (save a few random arena battles) and quit WoW months before that game introduced its significant PvP updates. In other words, I've only experienced the PvE side of MMORPGs. Frankly I don't know where to start on the PvP element.

I appreciate Adam, and Anet, trying to encourage more people to PvP. But the article was lightweight at best and didn't really answer my questions. What caught my attention: "There's a huge hurdle here."

Exactly! By publishing this piece does Anet also acknowledge that? So instead of having people write articles, why doesn't Anet reduce or outright eliminate the hurdles in-game?

I must say that I am constantly amazed at the convoluted thought process that some of you possess.

Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. He stated, and I believe correctly, that most casual PvE'ers consider Mending to be useful.

You are going to let one characterization trip you up. Try taking a sentence and applying it to the context of what he is saying.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mending is used more in PvE than in PvP. Anyone disagree?


Puhhhhleeeze!

Players don't have coded aggro, hate and threat tables.

Stop trying to rewrite game terminology by making the term "tanking" apply to PvP. Sunstrom is correct to point out that you can't "grab" aggro from other players using taunts, etc. He advises that you leave the PvE tanking skills off your quick bar when you go to PvP.

Sunstrom:

"A PvP Warrior needs to focus on dealing damage, because opponents merely ignore defensive Warriors and go after softer targets. "

I think that's fairly practical advice for most PvP scenarios involving a Warrior.

You seriously are going to contest that point?

Edit:

The ARTICLE is welcoming PvE'ers to try out PvP and does so in a easily understood and straightforward manner. What drives people away from many things in Guild Wars is the elitist attitude that dominates PvP. It goes with the territory. Nothing new about that.

But it's gets silly when people get offended at an article that is a basic introduction to PvP for non-PvP'ers.
==============================
"In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp."
==============================
I think he did a good job.

He wasn't trash talking those spells, he even listed advantages to them in PvE, he is saying (with truth) that they do not belong in PvP.

In my opinion the article has just one problem: it looks like the typical pvp(only) players viewpoint of the things. I could go on a lenghty report about mending etc now, but short:
I can live with most of it, some points amused me, some irritated me, some were right.

But all that's written is not the reason why many prople don't move from pve to pvp. It's not the builds, it's not even that you have to "unlearn" anything, you just have to adapt a bit, just like when first entering any endgame area.
If you really WANT to start pvping, technically everything you need to learn the first needed things are implemented. We, back in the days, had to look how we got defeated the first few times (just like in pve) and then adapted, but now you even have observer mode as a tool for looking what and how people play.
Basically pvp is somehow like pve, just the enemies have better skillbars and act in a more chaotic and less predictable way

You don't jump right into highranked gvg, you start your way in TA and from there through HA to GvG. And that's where the problems start. TA is pretty friendly towards casual play, but HA is definately not (the reasons have been discussed to death, buildslavery, fotms, rank, etc). In addition there is something missing in between those modes. 8vs8 HA and a semicasual 6vs6 mode or something like that is needed.

Also:
1.) many simply don't like pvp and don't even want to try it, it's not their playing style
2.) many don't feel pvp is rewarding
3.) many, and I think that are the most, feel offended by the rather hostile tone thats used by the pvp community. And that's the most severe problem and it's homegrown by the pvpcommunity.
4.) I know many who don't have a pvp-slot and their pvecharacters are simply lacking and subpaar to any pvponly character due to lack of flexibility in equipment or skills etc. Nobody wanted to take them in their team.

Point 4 is a reason that's not to forget. Almost all players I know ingame come from a pure roleplaying background. The lack of slots hurted them and they were almost forced to fill all slots with pvecharacters and then they either farmed like crazy or were basically unable to pvp outside of the casual modes.
As a start a PvP-equipmentbuilder being able to spit out pvponly gear for rpg-characters and the ability to salvage runes out of your armor without destrying it would help tremendously.

An article saying "mending is THE pve skill, but leave it there and don't use your stance tank, then you will win HoH" does not really help much. Ok, don't nail me on that last sentence, but I hope you understand what I mean with it

Mending is possibly the most expensive heal in the game - casting time, efficiency, and wasting a potential skillslot. He certainly did say it was fairly cheap, when it is not.

You can not read.

Learn to read.

There is absolutely no "tanking" in PvE in Guildwars outside of the conditions I mentioned. Learn to learn.

Also read.

I don't know if you know what tanking means.

Mending is used in PvE by people playing PvE. You can debate that if you want, but people use Mending. Whether you like it or not.



Oh, I can read AND comprehend just fine.

We are speaking of PvP. He referred to low damage warrior builds...I gave his quote right in the same section.... "opponents merely ignore defensive Warriors "

Tanking in Guild Wars PvE is different, no doubt. But a Warrior is still a TANK because he is ideal for soaking up damage.

Depending on the game, what class can absorb damage/tank will vary. In Guild Wars there is less pigeonholing of classes but the archetypes of the Holy Trinity are still present:

-Tank

-Heals

-DPS

They are just shared across all the different builds and professions.

So, learn to be more civil and stop picking fights over minutiae.Being all prepared to "punch" Adam in the face might be an indication that reason isn't your strong suit.

I'm generally a PvE player (although I do play plenty of AB), and I really didn't find the article insulting. Its a good introduction to pvp, and while the information may seem condescending to some, to newer players they may genuinely not know some of this stuff. Also, we should look at the author. He straight up says "the beautiful PvP system which, to my mind, is the shining feature of the game". He's a pvp player, so he's bound to have a bit of bias toward his favorite part of the game, along with maybe a deficit of knowledge when it comes to some of the details of PvE. I'm sure he didn't mean to put down all of the loyal PvE players.

You see, during World War 1 there was this weapon called the semi-automatic rifle. It is extremely good at killing someone at a very good range.

In open land warfare, this results in a massive inability for for someone to approach an entrenched position, especially when that position has machine gun support.

So the majority of the war was fought by sitting in long trenches, and getting trench foot.

Toward the end of it, heavy armored vehicles were developed under the cover-name of "water tanks" in order to break trenches.

World War 2 involved much less sitting in a hole.

So in conclusion, the enemy AI prioritizes targets based on armor and health and runs right past warriors unless they're body blocked. The end.

Analogies are pretty and all, but they don't apply. The word "tank" as it's commonly used in GW (and other online games of this type) refers to a character designed to soak up damage so that his allies don't have to.

Look, I'm sorry you're bad at tanking (or have partied with people who don't know the aggro system) but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

lol, BryanM you obviously have never farmed SF/UW/FoW etc etc, or you have never played a warrior in those situations. Do you know how people are so good at destroying mass groups of monsters without a single death? Because the tank holds the damn aggro and the Casters destroy them, while monks bond the tank and heal someone who is being chased by that ever so annoying enemy who losses tanks aggro.

Tanks hold aggro, taking all the damage. The End.

Probably because the hurdles are self-built by the PVE mentality - everynow and then when I'm feeling charitable in randoms, I'll spend some time talking to the average mending tank and explaining to them why their build is bad, how to improve it and what PVP is about.

The resistance alwlays comes from them, they don't accept advice, they certainly don't want to listen and for the most they are rude about it. What people need to realise, when you step from a PVE only background into a PVP arena is that you know nothing about how Guild Wars is played in PVP and that there is only minimal crossover knowledge that you can take with you. Does that sound arrogant? Maybe it is, but it's true.

Should A-Net try to lessen this? I don't think they should or will, as much as I would like it, improving the AI and skill-sets of PVE would cause a large number of PVE only players to struggle with the game which isn't what A-Net wants. The whole PVE game is designed so you can get through with well below average builds, intentionally - to minimise the crossover between PVE and PVP you'd have to re-write PVE such that you can't get through it with average builds, you need good well performing builds. That wouldn't be good for the playerbase.

I didn't get that horrid article and I'm getting ADD from reading this thread. Too much off topic and flame bait.

Well, duh.

ANet coded PvE to behave somewhat like a PvP encounter.

But, as I said before, despite all that you still have the Holy Trinity: Damage Absorber, Damage Mitigator, and Damage Dealer.

Specifically in PvE in Guild Wars, Warriors will go for defensive builds over offensive builds when they have a balanced party.

Again it's all about the CONTEXT of what Adam S. was discussing:

You are getting all hot and bothered over the title of a bullet statement:

You know I'm not surprised by the reaction that the community has given. A person has written an article sharing his Own opinion, and a couple of you people trash him like he was wrong for saying anything in the first place. Can you people get a life please. Yes, the article was crap, that's all you need to say. But low and I mean LOW insults like this:

and this:

Is totally uncalled for. (btw if it's a form of amusement and you dont care, don't post in here, because your retribution is just as meaningless.)

If you do not like the article, say so. Do not harrass the person who wrote it because it was in his right to write the article, and the community should be looking at its flaws in a constructive way (like what this thread is doing). Demeaning another person achieves nothing.

I am primarily a pve player. I just do not care for head to head competition. I do resent being pushed a bit toward pvp by the game as well. Ok enough background:

From these experiences, I have been turned off of pvp except for an occassional aspenwood game. It is likely many players who have tried to get into pvp have been turned off by the pvp community like I have. While I do realize there are many nice players out there, I do not have hours for the painful work of searching for a team that just wants to play around and have some fun.

I do agree that the style of play in pvp is a large hurdle that Anet needs to wean players into. A handful of articles such as this one will not do this as well as some type of in game tutorial where the player's hand is held through the basics. Few pve players seem to shake up their builds.

I do enjoy festival pvp like dragon's arena and snowball arena, however.

Or the other characters are out of the threat circle. Or there's a choke point that can be body blocked. Everyone in the universe knows this.

Bringing a warrior in a PUG to "absorb damage" when the party just blasts away at a mission is the worst PUG misconception and why I do not waste time with this PUG guy.

That you think the picture of him smirking in derisive triumph, after having possibly stomped another guild in fierce combat, is completely tasteful - I disagree. I do agree with those who feel the article had a condescending tone, and is silly this late in the game's life cycle.

I agree. The personal attacks are really uncalled for.

I hate the occasional trash talking 12 year old PVP players as much as the next guy but some of you talk as though PVP is the only format filled with these degenerates. Heck, I'd say that most serious PVP players don't act like that. You mostly find these trash talking nobodies in RA, HvH, and other lesser forms of PVP. I dont see this kind of crap often in GvG where for the most part it's pretty civil.

Anyway, some of you are getting worked up over nothing and taking the article a bit personally and making it personal as well. By the way you're acting, you're no better than the people you bash and label as PVP elitists.

While I don't find the article offensive, I find it pointless. Only the very bad players are going to be using some of the PvE tactics he talked about in his article, and those that do are probably not reading the State of the Game articles. If PvP is the ultimate destination for the game then ANet needs to get players involved somehow. I admit, it's going to be tough and I have no good ideas for it, but an Aspenwood type idea would be great. Unfortunately, Aspenwood was plagued by AFK players and such but...

Gotta call BS on this. First of all, the hurdles of going from PvE to PvP are the direct result of the difference in game dynamics, not by the "PvE mentality." To go from fighting AIs who are limited by their programming to playing against real people who aren't limited by what code is written for them is what makes the hurdle.

And there's nothing about the PvPer's attitude that keeps PvEers from jumping into PvP? I didn't detect much of the condescention towards PvEers in the article (other than equating all PvEers with "newbies"), but here it is in all its splendor!

I found that the article itself was not very helpful. All he did was list a few skills that aren't good for use in PvP. Didn't say anything about skills that are useful. Granted, he had limited space, but that space could've been better used giving tips for people new to PvP in what to expect and encourage them to check out fan site forums to study up on different PvP builds for each profession. If I do ever decide to jump into the PvP side of things, that's what I'm going to do. (Sitting around watching Guild Battles is quite boring to me)

Truth beyond truth.

The truth, also.

If they want casual players to play PvP, they have to offer areas without constructed teams.

It's a one page article meant to be a primer for people who might want to give PvP a try.

Anything is "easy" if you know how to do it.

Knowledge advances via a building block approach, at least at first. The leap frogging and "Eurekas!" come later after the simple concepts are understood.

PvP does need more integration with PvE in Guild Wars. People balked at ANet's attempt to do that in Factions, although I think a lot of the criticism was really aimed at the very restricted maps.

In DAoC, PvP was intertwined well with the PvE world. The back and forth struggle impacted, positively or negatively, Realm Bonuses for all the players in that realm.

Also, it was exciting to be defending a Tower Keep as its walls got blown apart around you as the enemy made their final push through the breach...



...good times...

Not bad players, but people who are new to PvP.-_-

Since there is an urge that what we prefer, and how we do things, has to be proven as better, we do this over analyzing and bashing/trivializing/down grading of what other people prefer and how they do things.

It happens all the time, everywhere....especially on the internet.
It won't change.
I even did what I'm talking about in my own post.

What I got from this is simple: Anet still is desperate to get people to play the PvP game. It apparently is a conversation topic at Anet... hence the write up.

Some people, like myself do not like the game play of the PvP game in GW. It's the pace of the game and the "tag-like" mechanics of it. I find it very boring and ugh... Other people love it and that's great, but Anet really needs to stop wasting time on this "push". I never see any PvP to PvE pushing going on, and in fact I recall something that completely works around PvE (PvP only edition). Maybe Anet should release a PvE only edition?

Anet as stated even in the article and in many other places knows by now, many players have no interest in PvP. Move on already, work on improving the game's PvE and PvP play and let the merge attempts stop. This is like beating a dead horse that has already been turned into dog food.