[State of the Game]: PvE to PvP

This is the real problem. The article isn't really offensive, it's just that an almost perfect line can be drawn between the people it addresses and the people who end up reading it. These people end up thinking the author is being condescending. Banality ensues. I think they have the right intentions but they need to send the articles out in game for them to become a little less pointless.

Well I have to say that I slightly agree with his statement that some players who have beaten the game need to unlearn it.... I will never forget the day in HA when some wammo wanted to play stance tank for our team. He even went as far as to tell us all we needed was a stance tank and that that was all the skills he had (including mending)... I think a little part of me died that day of laughter of course. However it was not his skills that bothered me as much as his innability to learn from what we told him and how you cannot "stance" your way to victory in HA... *sighs*


What's this mission!?!
and Glint is the last boss in the game!

Maybe they want to make glue.

I still believe that having seperate effects for PVP and PVE for skills is the way to go. PVP and PVE do not happen at the same time in this game. You don't find yourself using your skills against a monster and being ambushed by a player and have to use the same skills on that player.
The two modes are completley seperate.
You are either fighting against monsters or fighting against players, except Fort Aspenwood, but that's not enough to make a difference.

All skills should have a PVP description and a PVE description. You just toggle them with a checkbox. Before bashing the idea, it's being done already in other games. It works to help keep both modes of a game balanced, because it handles skill changes seperately.

The saddest part is, while the article lacks some content I would have like to have seen, it is full of sad truths about Guild Wars.

From playing this game since nearly the beginning, I can tell you that at least 90% of the players in this game have no idea how to play pvp properly. I am fine with that if they don't feel like playing pvp, but to say that this article is way off base is absurd.

Go to any pvp match with new players (such as random arenas) and you will find skills such as mending or healing breeze or rebirth on nearly every bar of warriors or monks. People trying to deny this clearly have not played these arenas anytime recently.

Speaking of mending, this skill is bad in pve as well, but what do 90%+ of warriors carry on their bar when asked to show their skills? Mending. As far as I am concerned, this article brought up sad truths about Guild Wars that people are trying desperately to deny.

It's just that some people think about and play the game a lot more than others. Some are diehard and some are casual. I don't think either one should be bashed for how they play, it's just important to recognize that they both exist and accept that.

this article is merely the latest installment of how deep the disconnect is between anet and the gw community

that the article was such a piece of flaming poo is one thing, but that his superiors allowed this is another thing.

a new low

Well from what I've seen of at least the last 2 PVP primers, some of the articles are written either very hastily or by people whose knowledge of the game comes from talking to other people.

I have to agree with you, Redfeather. While seperating pvp and pve versions of skills would add another hurdle in the pve-pvp transition, it would help eliminate a lot of the unrest surrounding each aspect influencing the other. The change could also in some ways force players to not take their pve builds into pvp with some type of warning when entering pvp areas.

This separation would also allow harder controls on bot farming through skill changes if Anet desires without crippling pvp.

I think numbers would've helped the article, I've much cared for the whole "Don't use this skill" approach to teaching. All he really says about Mending is that it takes energy from the monks (I don't think he has to mention that it's not an anti-spike skill...). If you want to say don't use Mending back up what you say with numbers.

As far as getting into PvP, friend's list for me. I met someone in PvE who eventually joined a guild with a PvP focus and they asked me to tag along every so often. They eventually became more competitive and I was given numerous chances to experience higher-end PvP. Before that, I played around in halls a little (maybe 20 fame?) and messed with RA as a 'tank'. Boy I was leet then.

Saying PvErs are noobs and that they should go learn to PvP or STFU is a sure way to bring in more new customers and retain existing player base. This is "definately" gonna help sell GW. gg ANET.

yep go ahead and close this thread for PvE against PvP who cares anyways.

The skills the author picked on are still commonly chosen skills that show up in RA unfortunately. The people who run warriors who cast life transfer, heal breeze, energy burn, etc or rangers casting firestorm and flare somehow got the wrong idea about what is good in pvp. The real question is whether these problem builds are the result of PvE players dragging over their PvE assumptions or something else. I think this may be the case in sometimes but I also think a great many pve players would think of these things as equally bad. I think the problem in general isn't always about PvE players using bad pve ideas in PvP but just about poor player skill and game understanding in general.

From my own experince I played PvE for a long time before digging getting into PvP. I actually really enjoyed the transition and now PvP is by far my favorite part of the game. Now, this of course isn't going to be everyones experience, but I would suggest to everyone that they at least try it out because you might end up having a lot of fun. If you make a real effort and get past the annoyance of RA at times and meet some people also interested in getting into PvP you might find you really enjoy it. Its not going to be for everyone, but it is a great part of the game that can add a lot more depth and replayability to gw.

You summed up my feelings perfectly. GW is just right for me to enjoy a cooperative story with some friends. When we feel like PvP, we turn off GW and load up in Marauders and Atlases and blow the hell out of each other. I don't see why people try and push PvP on PvEers, or PvE on PvPers. There are some awesome PvP players, and they get alot of respect for it, but the two aspects of GW are very different and don't appeal to everyone.


Lastly, on those rare occassions where I actually decide to try PvP, I have no way of actually proving that I have attained at least rank 1, so it's easier to just go AB or Aspenwood, where I don't have to wait forever for a team, and I get some amber out of the deal. He never addressed that at all. He makes it sound like PvP just welcomes people with open arms and it's our fault for not trying it. Truth be told, most of us (on both sides) don't care. From now on, IMHO, they'd be better off calling it the State of the Games, cause I see them as separate.

Don't tell me that 10-15 years old kid playing PvE for free monthly subscription can ever understand the mechanics of PvP and making and modifying his build. Their ability to understand that become much less when they face the elitism in PvP.

Read the article, must say this is Anet's best way of speaking the truth: they want more PvPer's.

Well, just a little problem: it is partially their fault.

From the beginning, many people did PvP for fun, competition, and they really liked the difficulty on the many levels of PvP. However, they saw that people were having trouble getting into those high levels of PvP. Instead of making a training area or letting them get better on their own, they made different changes.

One of the most devastating one of all is the 6v6 Double Fame weekend. Anet heard many complaints from the low-level place holders of PvP that they could not get into a group because of ''rank-discrimination''. From my own standpoint, I will have to say that I am disgusted by this. Since it is and always will be Anet's passion to get more players into PvP, they listened to these people.

Now, instead of looking around at sports and other competitions around the world (and do not tell me PvP-gaming and real life sports are not the same; when it comes to the main point, they are), they made it more accessible for players who never had enough people to get into a group, and prompted more players to get their rank faster. However, it had a reverse effect on the community.

After making the change based upon the results from the weekend, many experienced players of HA uninstalled GW and went to other games. This caused a chain reaction. With no more experienced players to group with, even with the 6v6 group size, the players still highly dedicated to HA had to settle with other PuGs. But, since the lower-level PvPers (or the ''newbs in PvP) do not have anymore nice and well-experienced players to group up with, their primary objective to get into groups with higher-end players was nearly gone.

I respect Anet for making many efforts to restore PvP, and Adam's article was fair; it did not state that they wanted to force devoted PvE-ers to PvP but instead helped the players that were interested in PvP that didn't quite have a grasp on how to play differently.

This is not a flame post; this is merely me pointing out how their in-game changes did not satisfy all and that taking an outside approach was smart.

I think that article was GREAT! He also left out endure pain. Not only do I see PvE players using those skills in RA but HA as well. Some of you need to lighten up because as harsh as you may have found that article it is so true.

I would actually like to see that article to let me read if you don't mind, but I think we can all agree that even my left foot could have wrote something better. This is such a bland bland article, basically Sunstrum put up a couple "Do Not Pass Go" signs here and there. Even though he is correct it could have been done in a better fashion, like instead of looking at individual skills saying that they are "slow" casting time and immediate effects could have been looked as to how they are better in PvP which is more time based then PvE where it is patience based.

Since when did a skills usefulness matter to PvErs? And yes, I've seen many stupid reasons to use mending.I've seen people seriously say mending is good for countering vampiric degen. And use it for that purpose.

Anet fails to see one thing - PvE players interested in PvP already made this transition and are happy. PvE players not interested in PvP simply dont do it because its not fun for them.

no amount of insulting articles (i find this insulting as author seems to thing that every PvE players is simply dumb and thtas reason he wont PvP), silly incentives (double fame event - who cares? Crystalines and others drop in hoh chest - so what, realistic chance of getting one only deffers you from wasting time in there.) or tying PvP to PvE (see how hated favor is) is gonna change view.

Just for kicks, I went to HA and saw LF R5++, even a R10++. No dice. So I head on over to RA and get in with a good group. My Ranger, an Assassin, a Monk and another Ranger. We crank off 3 wins, and I'm like... Ok, not bad. We crank off 3 more. Ok, great. We crank off 3 more. Fantastic! Now I'm a win away from my very first Gladiator point... and I guarantee you we'd have got it. I figure we're all going to get one. Then I see all 3 of the other people type 'Thnx for glad point' and they leave. I end up in a group with 2 Paragons and a Dervish.

WTF?

In that time I could have been up to 2k in tombs getting ready for the boss drops. One grind is enough for me, thanks.

some people just think for themselves and do not want to try and get u one or two more in TA, i usually ask and try. Its often worth a shot, though harder as u will not be as balanced as a good team.

For the rest. I think first time PvP can be quite confronting to PvEers. They finished the PvE game, and might think they are good at GW. No, they are at best good at the PvE side of the game, but even if you are not good, the PvE game is quite forgiving to mistakes or just mediocre or bad play.

PvP is just different, and u must relearn the rules here. Just ignore spoofing and insults, and progress. If u see yourself become better it will be rewarding.

The biggest glaring problem with that article is that he misspelled the word 'shitters' as 'PvErs'. There are plenty of shitters in PvP (think RA, AB) too, and they use those same skills for the same reasons. It wasn't an article explaining the differences between competitive PvP and competent PvE, but the differences between how decent PvP teams work and how that differs from what utter noobs do.

Yes, when you start talking about utter noobs and use the wide 'PvE' brush to describe that, you're going to insult a lot of people that you shouldn't be.

Peace,
-CxE

Thought id fix that for you.

Well, the article did not offend me as I view it along the lines of "If the shoe fits, wear it". What does bother me though, is the underlying sentiment that I must be an idiot because I do not PvP. That sentiment is not so much in that article, per se', but taken as truth by (in my opinion) the majority of the PvP community. To me, that is the obstacle to getting involved in PvP.

On a much funnier note, this line: had me rolling on the floor. The lad seems to have confused a fantasy game with real life. Go figure. Last time I checked, killing people does not pay very well but the graphics sure are better.

i'm a pver and i'm interested in playing pvp, but this article didn't help me very much.
a guide with infos about getting started in pvp, creating pvp chars, gaining and spending faction, different kind of arenas and so on would be really great and not a 1 page article about a few skills.
somebody who thinks that he would help a pvp-newbie with this article should check his brain.
this article is an insult to everybody who wants to get started in pvp.

I agree with Ensign 100%.

I'm gonna quote this for thruth and hope Anet never places such articles on their main website again.

I am an avid PvE player but I have tried playing PvP at some point just to see. I didn't like it for a couple of reasons:

- random arena's, while allowing for any class to join in it also means teams are random and that has big problems. You are not at all in control of what your team does and you have a lot of leavers because they don't think they can win with a certain team build.

-beyond the random arena's - well, you can pick your team now but since only certain builds are wanted only certain character classes will be accepted and only with certain specific builds....the fact that there are so many char classes who are basically out of the PvP game makes it kinda lame. Only certain classes with certain builds = boring to me.

Whereas I love CTF in games like Unreal, it's ill yto me in fantasy settings...in the random arena's I've never played a CTF game that actually was about the flag...it still turns into a team deathmatch...

I would like a one on one arena...now that would be fun...even if it's just at the guild hall.

This article has addressed none of my concerns and has therefore not given me one reason to go try PvP again...and the content seems to be based on a lot of assumptions about PvE....certainly doesn't describe my palying style

I actually didn't think the articles was that bad. Sure, it's a bit out of touch in that Remove Hex in an MoR is pro, and some builds run Hard Rezes without fastcast or gluph ([SCC]).. sometimes, and mending and such aren't "hailed" as anything great by the majority. Oh, they aren't rare, but if you get into a group in PvE, see someone use mending and click while holding down ctrl...

Some Guy(1) is using mending on Some Guy!
Some Guy(1) is using mending on Some Guy!
Some Guy(1) is using mending on Some Guy!

A few or at least one person will go "wtf" or "lol". So you know not everyone's an idiot, as Ensign and a few others have said. However, the article isn't really that bad, it's in the right direction, and it's not like anyone reading it will suffer from any delusions by writing broad, not overly accurate statements. So I've nothing against the article.

As for tanking. See, if you send a guy in with MAYBE endure, but perhaps sprint, or even escape, or just some prot first in PvE, while casters stay our of aggro range while casting, monks especially (aggro range is less than wand/cast range), the "tank" can usually waste the first few, possibly energy intensive spells from the AIs first. For example, MS gets casted on a tank who, seeing that, runs to another area first, so the MS is out of way, or, another example, SF and other AoE spells is used on him, away from the group, yay, they waste energy, your other guys own them.

Some differences in PvE and PvP is the ability to abuse AI stupidity (like you abuse human stupidity sometimes in PvP... I dunnno, cancel casting? Something like that). For example, using a 55 Famine. Normal players will NOT keep attacking. Another difference is that you can adapt your build to the PvE, as you know who you're against. ie. The Deep/Urgoz Warren/DoA.

Also, in general, PvE mobs sometimes bring AoE. They are like Ele Ball, where everyone has Heal Area and Wards of Stability/Melee/Elements. A good team can crack them, but damn annoying. This means that having frontline as the main source of damage as a lot of PvP does, wouldn't be as viable. Oh, it still works, but not as fast. AoE is by no means effective in killing human players, but that you can't just have 6 warriors bash the hell out of the mobs because they decide to deepfreeze/SF/Ancestors'Rage (from a Boss, no less, so double damage) makes it much easier to just spam SF/MS or use Barrage.

That said, organized PvE in GW isn't that common. Vent is used sometimes, but not really that much so compared to, for example, WoW. Really, if I could make a Splinter Barrage team in PvE, that'd be kickass. But is that going to happen?

"Safage shot? Wuts that? I don't have skill."

GG? Okay, someone said he's going to use WoH. Why on earth does he have healing breeze? And did he just rebirth me? Mid-battle? Well that's smart.

FYI, I'm a pretty decent PvE and PvP player, and I actually know quite a few good/decent PvP players who do all kinds of PvE stuff, quoting vebratim "chest running, D2/WoW to farm phat loot". I like to look sexy when I eventually get on TV more often. More importantly, what do I do to distract me from History papers when there are no GvGs? Time to trap DoA.

Also, to the above. GvG is a lot about morale, and the flag can sometimes become very important, and use see Bull's Charge, Freezing Gust, Water Trident and such come into play, keeping that runner knocked down so he can't cap.

What will Thom do if he gets chosen? Flagrunning!

This is something that I see a lot - the difference between PVP and PVE here is that the opposition is doing their damn best to kill you in PVP - in PVE it's more a mediocre lets put up some fight. Using varied builds in PVP inevitably leads you to substandard builds, which leads to them failing to win, in PVE it just means that it takes a little longer to finish a mission.

This is unfair Ensign. Adam didn't say all PvErs do anything. He said many do, and that of the PvE population there are some common mistakes. The kind of PvEr he is referring to is in fact probably best described by the word "many;" I certainly seem to see this sort of thing all the time in alliance battles, something I do every day. It's not fair to Adam to take what he said about common mistakes and extrapolate it to him talking about all PvErs.

I believe the title of the article was 'From PvE to PvP'...

Man, you guys need to chill out. Words on a website about a video game really shouldn't spark so much emotion like this.

no, usually not, but when its on the Guild Wars home page, then it does spark more than it should!

Yeah, that's why people need to actually read the article instead of just the title and bullet headers.

People are not considering that Adam Sunstrom may have access to ANet's skill usage stats and therefore, might be basing such radical statements as "hailed by many PvErs as the most useful skill in the game, it provides a constant, accessible, and fairly cheap source of healing" on recorded behavior patterns.

Sure, he's editorializing why people use Mending, I suppose they might be using it because they think it's a god awful skill, but more likely they use it because they perceive it to be useful.

meh... its not that bad. I play both, but not too much PvP anymore, and think it is fine. He makes some valid points. It really isn't insulting or condescending, IMO.

Mending does see a lot of use in early post-searing. I used it there myself, because at that point I'm usually still scraping to get 8 useful skills on my bar.

EDIT: Oops, posted this in the wrong thread. Never mind.

As a PvE player i found the article to be quite insulting and demeaning. It was obvious he has no experiance in such a transition. while there are alot of bad players in pve, the same is true for pv and any other game.

by grouping eveyone together under one name was sure to cause an uproar, which i believe to be prefectly justifiable.

TRhe only reason i dont pvp is sheer lack of interest in it. If i have nothing to do in game at the moment i'd prefer to help other people than enter pvp, not because of his narrow minded reason.

In PvE you can't always count on your allies to cover your back, so it's understandable when you bring some defensive skills even if you are a damage dealer.

Right... you know how long a healing Ele is going to last in my Urgoz team?

If you are a Monk, don't cast Fire Magic spells.

Right... you know how long a Monk with Fire skills on his/her bar is going to last in my Urgoz team?

Though most resurrection skills are Monk skills, they're not best used on a Monk. If your Monk begins to cast something that takes six seconds to complete, the enemy team has a huge window to bring all of their damage to bear while one of your Monks is rendered completely useless.

Right... you know what I call a Monk in my Tombs team who wastes their Energy on Rebirth when there are FIVE R/Mo's standing around? Clue: It's rude.

Mending – Hailed by many PvErs as the most useful skill in the game...

Huh? Really? How many? Who are these people?

I want to write to Adam Sunstrom and warn him not to do these things in PvE. Or he'll never make the transition to Post Searing.

Note to beginner PvP or PvE: Bookmark guildwiki.org forever. Go to 'Builds'. Read. Ignore everything Mr Sunstrom says, particularly about PvE.

Hahaha wow

Wiki builds are terrible

So, take a general statement about PvE and tie it down to a specific PvE situation. Way to entirely miss the point!

The point: what can generally work in PvE won't generally work in PvP. You can dwell on all the exceptions but the statement is made in order to illustrate behavior patterns in PvE that don't translate well to PvP.

There you go again. Same response to that as I made above.

What are you disputing? The obvious benefits of Rebirth in PvE as opposed to PvP? Or, that resurrecting fallen players is not solely, nor should be, the Monk's job in PvP? Your response makes no sense.


Adam Sunstrom is probably in a lot better position to know than you about how much Mending is used. He may have to editorialize as to the perceived reasons Mending is used, but that's what intelligent people do when they reason things out.

ANet does track skill usage statistics on its live servers. It does so for many reasons.

You still entirely miss the point: Mending may have some uses in PvE but it's a generally bad thing to use in PvP.