[State of the Game]: PvE to PvP

Not really. Those situations are typical of any endgame PvE.

The latter. Except in PvE also. I would have thought that was obvious in context.

My evaluation of Mr Sunstrom's intelligence can only be dependant on his writings. So far, so bad. If he represents ANet collective wisdom on PvE or PvP... well, frankly... we're f**ked.

Oh! Was that the point? Next you'll be telling me I shouldn't use Frenzy against Bladed Aatxes, or maybe, that I shouldn't sell my Black Dyes to the Merchant anymore.

Adam Sunstrom needs better PvE builds to make the transition to Post Searing.

yeah, but they are a start

I'm not sure where he said he uses those skills in PvE.

I'm not sure where he advocated the use of those skills in PvE.

He didn't say "i use dis shit yo", he said "dis shit might fly sometimes in pve but it won't fly in pvp ever".

This thread and the opinons on the article, defenitly was the last nail in the "NO WAY PvP for me " coffin.

The PvP base in the game wants more people to try Pvp, but at the same time you bash every try from A-Net to lure new people in.

Supposedly it was stated somewhere betwen all those "insults to PvE'ers.

What I find more demeaning to PVE'ers is the amazing number of them who can't interpret an article because they apparently lack reading comprehension skills.

All this reminds me of having to train new hires and have them cop an attitude during training...that they know everything when they clearly do not know everything. I suppose that if education is an insult to the ignorant, we should all feel very abused through out our lives.

The tone of the article is not insulting, it is light hearted and straight forward. The article isn't a master piece or widely scoped work, it is a simple introduction of some basic things for PvE players to consider if they want to broaden their in-game horizons.

Obviously, ANet doesn't need to encourage the "hordes" of PvP'ers to try out PvE. Trying get the mass bulk of players to try PVE is reasonable goal. My feeling is that the next Campaign will lower many barriers in that regard. But, at the end of the day, we still have to endure with each other.

the article's fine. i have no idea what some of you are complaining about. it's a perfect introduction to someone who know nothing about pvp, and i find the tone to be perfectly reasonable.

All people who thought the article was bad are PvE'ers? Can we say... "assumption"?

"Yeah, heh, *smug complacent smirk* anyone who disagrees with me must be nub like my new 'hires'. Heh. Have you noticed I've been working out?"

*

I think we said being patronised was insulting. I think the quote you should be considering is: "A wise man knows what he does not know." - Socrates.

**

So why are all these people posting about how insulted they are about this article, but not the other PvP Primers?

***

Agreed! Oh wait, there's more...

Read: patronisingly simplistic.

****

* throughout[sp]
** light-hearted[sp], straightforward[sp]
*** masterpiece[sp] widely scoped?
**** endure each other [grammar]

PS: I included corrections because, as you yourself say:

Gee, Rene Saliere, you kinda full of yourself. I find you "patronizingly simplistic".

You seem to have some comprehension problems yourself, irregardless of my typos and spelling errors. You realize that reading comprehension isn't in the same category as perfect typing or immaculate spelling?

I didn't say "all' people complaining were PvE'ers...you said that...I said "amazing number" which doesn't equal "all".

M'kay, Rene?

You seem to have an issue of trying to force non-absolute statements into becoming absolute statements. Well, that is called being intellectually dishonest and lazy.

So, keep up the ad hominem attacks; it's great way for you to be consistent if you can't manage to be correct.

Insipid little snipes don't make a debate, but since when has that stopped anyone?

It’s amazing to me how this article even got to the ANET homepage. It has to be the worst "tripe" ever posted for state of the game and it is complete trashing to veteran PvE players and the larger PvE community as a whole. ANET you seriously need to remove that article.

Yes its true many PvE players use the listed skills such as Mending but there is a reason for using those skills in PvE.... It’s the experience, "their fun" experience. Many PvE'r don't care about mathematical power just the "fun" aspect. This also does not mean they are less able to play PvP on a power level because they use Mending for PvE only. I’ve seen new PvPrs in RA and TA use “Mending” so it’s not an exclusive “PvE noob” skill no matter what PvPr’s tell you. Players can adapt to HA level when its "fun" for them to do so and HA is simply not fun and has become rather complicated even for veteran PvPr's.

At least one thing is nice for PvE introduction for PvP... "AB" through AB an average PvE player can stop by and enjoy a quick fun mass combat PvP game without the elite attitudes of HA or TA. The casual player feels safe without too many judgments on his build. He can use Mending if he wants to and learn from his mistakes or he can test new personal builds, meet people, and enjoy a large quick game without flashing his bambi as a requirement for joining a team.

Now lets go over the skills we “noob” PvE’rs use according to the article and debunk the myths behind the lies.

Mending
Many Players in PvE often desire a need to feel like a regenerating Troll of fortitude. Mending creates this in game feel even if there are better options out there for healing.

Healing Breeze
Where would the PvE Assassin be without this valuable skill especially when used in conjunction with Vigorous Spirit? Many Assassins would still be in Cantha somewhere hoping for mercy from some Monk. Healing Breeze is defiantly not a PvP anti spike skill, but extremely valuable non the less. Healing Breeze also helps deal with many degen skills such as Phantom Pain, Conjure Nightmare, Bleeding + Poison etc.

Remove Hex
An effective simple Hex removal skill that has no attribute requirements that makes it appealing by its low cost.

Rebirth
A safe way of extracting your comrades out of harms way without drawing agro from monster mobs in DoA or anywhere else but a PvP area. Also since it is likely that your comrades are going to die again and again in PvE its valuable to have a safe reusable res skill anyone in the team can use.

Heal Area
This is a quick way of getting the team up and ready to go after a monster mob fight or healing up your minions in masse.

Illusionary weapon
Great for defense against monsters that get to close to you when your going Illusion as a Mesmer. Why do 11-22 to that Stone Summit Dwarf when you can do 42 a swing. To kite is good when you can; but dammit as soon as I move so do my henchmen and I need them to Attack! Attack! Attack!

Animate Flesh Golem
This skill is good for both PvP and PvE as it creates pressure just by existing. You can ignore it in PvE but its still there. Tell me how many you see and AB and explain again why this is a useless skill for PvP? Isn’t AB PvP?

Disclaimer
Yes PvE players use the above skills but that does not mean they are weak or use them in a PvP environment. If all skills were made for PvP then it would ruin the PvE experience; and that experience is what draws more to PvE than the power game of PvP. Stop antagonizing the PvE player by ruining his experience.

lol..I am sure some PvP elitist will say that AB is not "true" PvP...adn I am sure i will back up that claim by saying I enjoyed doing this in the lat two weeks and I am hard core PvE

elitist my butt. How does the pvp community turn you off when you play RA and other casual pvp modes? I wish they had this article one year ago. I'm sick of w/mo with mending and healing monk with rebirth in RA. If you don't want to pvp then don't comment on the article. The article is for pver who want to try RA. I hope I see less w/mo mending in RA. I want good casual pvp experience too. And those who talk about elitist in pvp, please stop and play more RA/casual pvp.......

Are you kidding?

The 13 year olds are all running around tombs/ra. Look at how many r9+ 13 year olds there are. By contrast PvEers tend to be older and more carebearish. Part of the reason many pvers dont play pvp is they dont have dozens of hours a week to devote to practice, grind, or team play. Unlike most kids, especially 18-21 year old college kids.

As for understanding the game, lets be real. If you can count down from 3 and run the builds you are told to run, you can play pvp as well as tons of pvpers. It doesn't take much to PvP and even to win at PvP some of the time. PvEers are generally much less gimmick/spike oriented and rarely run the builds others give them. They usually pick their own based on their experiences/preferecnes (for better or for worse).

Dear God...the article was innocent enough and highlighted a lot of common problems you see for people new to PvP. Not everyone out there is dead set against making the jump from PvE to PvP and for those who aren't it might help them avoid some very comman pitfalls in skill decision. If you've tried PvP and you don't like it thats _fine_, just don't get all upset when someone writes and article encouraging people to try while also picking on some commonly seen bad choices. No one has a gun to your head screaming at you to PvP, in fact the vast majority of the updates and game content are directed at you the PvE player. BUT there is a side to the game that still needs enocouragment and proper attention called PvP that is for many people a great part of the game. If you don't like it then just ignore because its not directed at you. Its directed to those people who have heard of this thing called PvP but don't know anything and might be interested in trying it out.

This reeks of falseness.

I truly can't fathom how you feel so strongly about this article. At it's worst, it states what is more or less obvious to veteran players. How stating the obvious becomes the "worst tripe" completely escapes me.

I see a huge and ridiculous over reaction from many posters in this thread. If the outrage is so righteous and deserved than why is it so difficult for anyone to clearly explain its cause? It doesn't add up.

I hear people nit-picking details, objecting to matters of opinion or declaring that they are offended; plenty of posturing but no actual rebuttals.

The only time I play PvP is with people I know. There is just too much shit talk and bad attitudes. In fact, even in Rollerbeetle Racing... there was so much crap-talk going around... and poor sports... that I got tired of it. I've met a lot of really cool players... but the number of ass-hats far outnumber them.

PvE on the other hand is a nice break from real life. I can log into the game and I'm off questing (with or without others) and I feel the community in general is MUCH better in PvE than it is in PvP.

The day PvE goes down is the day I move onto another game. Hopefully that won't be happening anytime soon... cause I love this game!

Uhh....especially with heros...yes you can...most of my PvE skill bars have minimal healing skills...this is beacuse Dunkoro is decked out and Tahlkora is an uber prot monk....if they cannot help me, no one can.

True...in Urgotz either the rit lord, R/RT or the BIP do the rezzing

As I see it, the skills portion is talking about the extremely coordinated (Top level-Elite) aspects of PvP...TA, HA, GVG...NOT AB, RA or JQ/FA...but his arguments about PVE to PVP can be the same as those made for PVE to Elite areas (DOA, The Deep, Urgotz)

Some general comments:
On...HB and Mending are good for countering weak degen or sacrifices to take presure off the monks...besides how often do you use ALL 8 Skills

Remove Hex: holy veil cost a regen pip..sometimes this in not a trade you can make

Heal area can be useful if you need to heal NPCs if they need to stay alive for a quest...Heal area combined with Enfeeble blood (ah-ha Combine skills for desired effect)

Animate flesh golem vs Jagged bones...I have treid to run jagged bones with bone minions...with the 20 sec recharge jagged bones, it is tough to keep this on all the minions...especially since A level 13 Bone Minion has 340 health and 39 armor...they DO NOT last long in PVE...sometimes not long enough to cast both copies...Especially if there is holy damage. I doubt that in PVP they would last long either...especially against AOE of metoer shower or SF. Now the FLesh golem does about 110 damage per hit to the back line...that can really change things...it cannot tank, but it can distract...refocus attention and irritiate

I don't know. The game is balanced between PvP and PvE. Any changes you done to one side will likely affect the other.

makes me wonder if Adam over there ever ran into a friend of mine that used to play once in while (much less now if at all).

When he played monk/ranger, he fell in love with mending and blessed signet, can you guess what he did ??

had a pet for damage, maintained mending on everyone, and used a few smiting skills. and he got as far as the jungle, only to be ran to droks for armor.

lol that basically sums it up there... its was very hard to explain to him that healing multiple digits is better than just 3 regen on everyone who would die anyway just slower. all they needed was a cheap hex for degen and they would lose their healing for what its worth.

Good to hear...I am a casual PVP player...glad to know I would be welcome in RA.

Because of its generalization of PvE as a whole when PvP players make similar mistakes in skill choices [check out RA for details]. It identifies PvE’s as less informed when in fact many PvE’rs such as myself are highly informed and see the destruction of the PvE experience through the lack of creativity of the PvP mindset.

To simplify the topic a bit and include PvE into PvP, two things are needed.
1) Get rid of all rank emotes.
2) Separate competitive level GvG from casual fun GvG.

All skills have their uses and to only state why a skill is bad for PvP and leaving the mental assertion that PvE’s use these skills and are therefore inferior, when stating the obvious is both rude and condescending to the average PvE player. It does not leave a favorable impression of those skills for PvE or PvP when there are real uses for these skills in a PvE environment.

Overall it wasn't as bad as some of their previous articles.

Some problems though, Mostly him confusing Noob to Non-noob transition with PvE to PvP transition. This is where the arrogant attitude says up - throughout the article he associates the common actions of "noobs" and new players with the overall PvE community. This is exactly what Ensign said...

The article does barely anything to teach anyone about coming from PvE to PvP, which was the focus. It is a decent article telling some new players what not to play ANYWHERE (pve or pvp) though...

I do as well but something was missed. I read the article for a fifth time just trying to justify why he chose the words he did, and look for a reason as to why he was so insanely blatant and bland about the entire thing. As I said earlier my "left foot" could write something better but then I am starting to see something different. What he did was two different but very good things.

The first was being basic, even having this "wide brush" of players put into one category it is true for the most part experienced in PvE or not there is a difference in skill level compared to the whole of experienced PvP. Not only that but the fact that if he did go into detail about a specific play group then he is anihilating every other PvE based player. I see the reason he used this term and now I come to agree with it, but yet he failed to give pure detail.

The second thing I am starting to like about this article is that if your planning to purchase the game and looked over the article for a quick glance to see how detailed the game would be if I had read that and was completely new I would be thrilled to open up the box. Even though he did not have the good detail all the experienced players on this thread do have, he did the main thing every piece of writing wants to do, KISS. (Keep It Simple Stupid, or so my theatre company tells me)

I see both sides of the coin after reading it thoroughly a few times I suggest more do the same, he did accomplish a priori yet left the people who had already bought the game in the dust. Guess which part I still don't like.

This is the most ridiculous statement.

Getting rid of rank emotes? Why? Cause someone roflcopter'd you?

Your two suggestions are weak beyond belief. Seperate Casual from competitive? Have you heard of Scrimmages? Alliance Battles? Random Arena?
Competitive Missions? There is nothing abosolutely competitive and shows the relevance of pvp and pve transition. There is a reason why Kurzick/Luxon donation Titles do not add to Balthazaar Faction total.

Great article, not insulting like HA int dis 1. He should have mentiond that Remove Hex sees some use by Mesmers in GvG's sometimes.

A lot of the griefing in GW comes from PvP players, either in the PvP areas (which are just horrid places of hatemongering and misplaced-elitism), or when they play PvE and keep aggravating everyone by LOL'ing at skillsets of new players, or go banana because the group went 5 meters to the west of the perfect line.
If PvP players where more... normal, GW would be a much nicer place IMO.

So this "state of the game" sounded to me like more like "whinings of a PvP griefer".

Wow if he got any more condescending I'd want to take a swing at him. I think the attitude right there is why you don't see a lot of transition. People like that abound in PvP, in PvE as well but not to the same extent and you know it. To me this is just another condescending PvPer trying to mask his insults behind the benevolent mission statement of "Helping out all us poor PvE people who don't know the joys of PvP play." Stuff it I say. I have to agree this is hands down the worst State of the Game article ever. They need to have some sort of editorial process over there at ANet and if they do have one it needs to be overhauled big time before more tripe like this gets published on their site.


Not trying to be rude or insulting, but this is a personal peeve of mine.

regardless. Not irregardless. There is no such word and if there was it wouldn't make sense in the context you are using it in. IR is a negative prefix LESS is a negative suffix. Put them together and you have a double negative in one single word.

I am sitting here looking at the wall map that came with my Prophesies game. I got the game 11/2005. Originally there were 8 PvP arenas 1 in each area. Assuming you came to postsearing at approximately level 5 and progressed through the game as originally intended, 1 area, 1 mission at a time, you could use the armor and skills aquired in the area to 'practice' pvp in the arena. This probably worked great in the early days of the game. Now 2 years into the game, when you sear, buy run to Droks, get the armor and get the skills for the high end area, and return to Ascalon arena, and wipe the noobs out. Getting wiped was/is not my idea of fun. That is why I spend 99.99% of my time in PvE.

If you can restore the 'along the way' training areas, with restrictions on the armor and skills that can be used there, (only those that can be aquired up to that point) this might bring back a more balanced learning curve for the transition from PvE to PvP.

Exactly...

More to the point, the reason this article is such a big deal for some people is that it's on the 'official' website. Almost endorsing this attitude that PvE players are 'lesser' than PvP players.

While true in many cases, generalisations are dangerous. You make them on fan-sites not official ones. It's just asking for trouble...

Thank you, totally what i was trying to point out (but was too incenced by the article to articulate properly)

I think the attitude of the people reacting to the State of the Game article is more pertinent to the issue at hand.

Indeed, "the Guild Wars community is deeply polarized around PvP and PvE".

I have parsed the article and I don't conclude that it is condescending. Since being offended is largely subjective process, I won't dispute that people can be offended.

But, in the case of the article, I think the fall out surrounding it speaks more of the posters on this forum than it does about the "most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp".

It's extraordinary that any experienced player can come away from reading an article about beginner PvP and feel offended.

I find it all rather silly. It smacks of politics, not rationality.

I think he nailed it right on the head with that article. Notice how when some skills get nerfed PvE players revolt. They are used to playing the same skills over and over again without actually understanding game balance, ie counters etc. I noticed somewhere in this forum it was mentioned about PvE hard mode. Although I never bothered to actually read it but could you imagine if PvE monsters had migraine mesmers that would actually cover hex with interrupts? Instead of the monsters attacking first thing in aggro they would actually go for the monks or other softies. I used to PvE and it was bad enough trying to get blind removed as a warrior while in a pug if the monk even bothered to bring some sort of condition removal.

Seriously you guys need to get the sand out of your vaginas over this article. I think it was well written and covered what happens when players try to make the transformation from pve to pvp. Strobo even goes off saying he would take a swing at him.....haha...Ahh look at that bright yellow ball in the sky, smell that fresh air. Get out more.

Went try bit of RA (ineptitude screwing sin spikers, etc, P4F)

Every other monk usued healing breeze at some moment, seen mending-dolyak wammo, etc... seem Me/E who obviously read that article as he used mending, healing breeze, remove hex and firestorm.

From what i gather, author had really bad day in RA (IW mesmer trying 'n failing, all kinds of terrible monks and wammos ...) and had to vent.

WTB PvE-2-PvP article by Ensign or someone.

That's very special, but I never claimed I would never use non-standard english when posting on an internet forum. So, I tend to view this comment as another snipe that has nothing to do with the State of the Game article.

What was covered in that article though is common knowledge. We all know that those monk skills are inadequate for PvP and most of them inadequate in PvE as well. The very nature of the article is condescending. It would be like me walking up to you and saying." You know what? They sky is blue and cows go moo and puppies go arf." You know these things, everyone knows these things from the time they are 3. The immediate assumption that most people would make is that whoever spoke to them in such a manner must think they are an idiot. By that same token the article itself, in explaining such blatantly obvious things to a population that is not nearly as woefully misinformed as the author believes them to be, is insulting to the intelligence of the average PvE player.

Your post above though illustrates my point. Apparently you are aware that irregardless is not a word and is not proper English. My explaining it to you was viewed as a snipe because it insults your intelligence. It's something you already know and therefore the implication is that I think you're stupid.

I think you need to read the article on why a Me/E can't use the stated MONK skills. SotG articles aren't really taken seriously by PvPers anyways. Stop QQing.

...common knowledge...everyone knows these things...blatantly obvious things...

You know those things and veteran Guild Wars players may know these things, but is quite the stretch to say "beginner players" will "know" these supposedly self evident things.

This is the equivalent of choosing to read a preschool alphabet primer and then loudly declare in outrage that "everyone knows this stuff!"

notice how pvper's ask for skills to get nerfed? ask yourself Why...

LoL-- abused skills in pvp = nerf for ALL, that is why.


LoL-- go PvE and see what happens...holding aggro is quite a talent these days

If he replaced all references of "PvE players" with "novice/new pvp players" there would be no issue. He could still talk about things that tend to be PvE mistakes without being as blatant.

The people who this article is aimed at won't be offended, of course. But any half-decent PvE player will be offended at both his tone and the implications of skills like healing breeze, mending, etc. being used by such players.

Have to add, GvG is already seperated by casual/competitive. Guilds with weak ratings are matched against each other, and the ladder is now seperate from tournaments.

If this Adam Sunstrom speaks for Anet, then the poeple of Anet are the biggest jerks around, the artical makes me want to PvP less, not more. I read it and basicly my grasp is that he is saying PvE is for beginners, but PvP is for the pro's.

Why would I have to unlearn what I have learned in PvE to play PvP, infact I played both versions of the game, while playing the game as a whole, your artical Adam is a bunch of eletist crap.

Serously, I think Anet needs to appolgize for that artical, I find most thing not to be offense, in fact I hate when people feel offended, I guess now I know what it feels like. It's kind of bad when you enjoy playing a game, and the Dev's team or the complany spoke person says you SUCK because you fit into a catigory (PvE), and they want more people to play PvP, so they down grade you for it.

I say PvEers should boycott Anets products from now on in, all new chapters and existing chapters, or atleast send them a message that we as PvEers have had enough with being forced to play PvP.