[State of the Game]: PvE to PvP

The point of the matter is that it did offend PvE'rs so whether or not this was the intention doesn't matter.

Okay, I could not sleep.
I wanted to point out 2 big pros to creating skill effects variations for both PVE and PVP.

1) There is a lot more versatiliy in how skills can be balanced. If a skill is too powerful in PVE or being abused, ie. farming, only the PVE variant needs to be tweaked, thereby avoiding a negative impact on how the skill is used in PVP...and vice versa. There would be a LOT less complaining from the players and polarization of the communities after skill updates.

2) A great variety in gameplay can be created by changing the functionalities of skills to be unique in one mode over the other. That way a player familiar with skills and builds in PVE, could find a fresh new experience when trying to use those same skills and builds in PVP...and vice versa. This increases gameplay longevity quite a bit!

What is required is that each skill has 2 variants. The game's skill window has a drop down chooser to display either PVP effects for skills or PVE effects. The game also decides which variant is equipped when the player leaves an outpost. If they enter a PVP area the game equips the PVP variants of the skills and if the player enters any other type of area the game defaults to using the PVE variants. That way only PVP areas need to flag the change in what skill variant is used, just to make the whole process easier to control.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Gaile is absolutely correct. Even if Adam's article was offensive (and I don't buy it), you do not have the right to not be offended. That's what it comes down to. If you want to live in a candy-cane world where carebears give you hugs every day and tell you you're special, take some opiates and check into a hospital. In the real world, you don't have a right to shut anyone up who you disagree with. Get over yourselves and stop crying. If someone does an editorial you don't agree with, do an editorial of your own in counterpoint.

Very good point Gaile

5-year-olds throw temper tantrums...some never get beyond that I guess. I like a good discussion. I like to agree and to disagree...I do not like childish tantrums being thrown simply because they don't like someone's views or opinions...it's beyond silly.

My view is that the article doesn't represent how I feel...so he and I disagree and we co-exist without any problem. Just cause I don't share his view does not mean any censorship is to be applied. I know this game is for all ages roughly but we should be more grown up in our attitude.

Disagree all you like but please don't cross over to the 5-year-old-not-getting-what he-wants side. Again, it's beyond silly

The discussion is about an article aimed at people who have never PvP'ed before in Guild Wars.

If people are going to morph the article into the embodiment of every perceived slight they ever received in their lives, then that's their doing not ANet's or Adam Sunstrom's.

If your emotions are clouding your reason then your conclusions will likely be flawed.

Hysteria is a good way to get people wound up but it doesn't make them immune to foolishness.

All the objections to the article have been based on such stellar commentary as these:
The comments quoted above spring from a list of claims:

1.) The article has an "offensive tone".

2.) The article is offensive because it is "common knowledge."

3.) The article states that <insert statement, examples below>
"trashes" PvE'ers, considers PVE players "noobs", "all" PvE players use Mending, PvE is for "beginners".


Concerning the "tone" of the article:

This largely depends on what each reader brings to the table. Another words, if you bring a skunk to a picnic don't expect to have a pleasant picnic.

Being offended is entirely subjective even in extreme situations. But, it doesn't give anyone a trump card for winning an argument.

Concerning the article being "common knowledge" and so, therefore, useless. (also this is brought up to support the "offended" position)

First off, it's argumentative to call something common knowledge. Another words you can't prove it as truth. Just one person not knowing something proves that "something" isn't common knowledge.

But, this position doesn't get out of the starter gate, because the stated scope of the article specifically says that:

The author of the article never presented his work to be an "advanced" source of information or guidance. He clearly states his goals with in the first paragraphs.

Concerning various claims of what the article states:

This is a big category, but easily cleared if one looks at the actual claim and then reads the article to see what is actually stated.

I'll cover the two standard variations.

-"trashes" PvE'ers, considers PVE players "noobs", etc.

The biggest group of claims about the article are created from the perceived "tone" of the article (see point one above). The words used are not in the article at all but what certain readers divine to be what the author is saying. It's very much like a Rorschach Inkblot Test or reading tea leaves. The claims say more about the reader than they do about the article.


-"all" PvE players use Mending & PvE is for "beginners"

The smaller group of claims used as a basis for debate is the parsing of the statements about "Mending". The outrage is directed at the article because it is said to paint all PvE'rs as users of skill that is popularly considered "poor".

The article makes the following comments regarding Mending:

The claim that the writer painted all PVE Players with the same brush solely hinges on the use of the word, "many". I would just point out that the established definition of "many" does not equate to "all".

Lastly, the claim that the writer categorizes all PvE Players as "beginners".

This is sprouting from "perceived tone" and is not stated at all with in the article. In fact the word "beginners" is used to refer to players coming from the PvE portion of the game to play PvP for the first time. The usage of "beginners" here is a fair description of people that haven't done a particular thing before.

What is it they say about arguing with idiots?

Should I refute your implication, or shall I be accused of something?

Sometimes, after the skunk is brought to the picnic, some air freshener is in order.

I'm not offended by the article. On a side note, nice try to get more pve players into pvp, but really we won't see a major change. Pvp is more for fast paced and often younger people. Gamers are at their prime around 16. Once you are above 25, forget it if you want to compete with those teenagers at a serious level. RPG's have an older playerbase than for example a FPS. Lots of RPG players don't give a damn about competitive play, they just wanne have a good time without stress and the 1337 stuff.

I couldn't agree more.

It's absurd to say the article isn't offensive to a lot of people, when clearly a lot of people are offended by it.

No doubt Kuldebar will reply to this post with some more long-winded, unsupported assertion-filled nonsense, ending with some quotation he got from a 1980's self help book for small business owners.

The most consistent winners in HoH are guilds of mature players as far as I can see. Maybe not at Pokemon though.

I'm not offended or anything. I didn't even read it until the 'controversy' started, because frankly, the title of the article told me I wouldn't care about the subject matter. And I was right, I didn't care and still don't care.

I have to say though, as I did before in this thread, the article starts off on the wrong foot. I'll repeat my opinion here because Kuldebar conveniently ignored it when he criticized (quote) "all objections to the article have been based on such stellar commentary as these". Perhaps because I was right?

Could be but actually I don't know those people. When I played warcraft3, I knew who the best players and clans were, like 4k.Gruby, Tillerman etc. It's a fact that in this RTS game, the best were under 20, same goes for FPS like Unreal etc. So no it's not only in Pokemon. Would be interesting to get a list of core pvp players and their age from the top 200 guilds or so. Also we don't have gosus like in wc3. PvP in GW is too small and too incognito on this part. It doesn't live amongst the majority of the playerbase like in wc3. The 8vs8 is not an easy format to follow or learn from. Too much happens at the same time. It's not like a soccer game where you follow the ball. The entertainment value of the beholder in PvP is too low to please the crowds.

Maybe a 1vs1 format with ladderplay and ranks can bring some new life to pvp, don't know. It's an RTS I know but if we look at wc3 again, 1vs1 was the most popular, played and watched format. It's an ideal platform for potential gosus, people need human heroes to admire and learn from, gvg and 8vs8 are too unpersonal.

The future of this game is pve imo though.

I myself as a pver/pvper can understand why so many are offended by the article. The wrong choice of words as Ensign pointed out earlier in the tread was one of the reason that so many here, are angry with.

There are those who did agree with the article, also there are those who were not offended by it. But all in all the damage has already been done.

And now the space between the PVE & PVP is growing bigger and bigger.

Come on now Gaile. Seriously that entire statement was pointless because all that was basically said was," We stand behind our procedures, which we followed, and you guys are just out of luck." That's rubbish. I think that what is being asked is that the editorial staff try to consider the community more before approving these things. I still fail to see how anyone that had spent any time on these forums could possibly not know that this would be an issue. I think a lot of people, myself included, would like to see a public apology on the main site, not just plastered up here in the fan forums and a few words of contrition from the author as well would go a long way. I don't think any of those requests are unreasonable.

No one is asking to be compensated in any way other than the balm of an apology to ease sore feelings. I understand that the editorial staff has reviewed this and stands behind their original decision. I'm glad they took the time to make a second review, but right now that's a moot point. It doesn't matter anymore whether or not the editorial staff thought that they were spot on or not. What matters right now is that a lot of people were obviously offended by the content of the article and rather than copping out and saying," Well we weren't wrong.", it's time to just knuckle under here and do what every person who has ever worked in a customer service industry has had to do at some point and that is apologize. It doesn't matter if you think you are right. It doesn't matter if you think your customers are nuts and wrong. What matters is good community and customer relations and all this tripe about editorial review and lack of culpability is just hurting the situation even more.

I know that I personally have gone from offended to livid. I was offended by the article. I am livid with Arena Net's tepid response. Basically I am forced to do what all dissatisfied customers are forced to do when their needs are not being met or their issues are being inadequately addressed at the base level of an enterprise, I'm moving up a rung. Since Arena Net will not own up and do the right thing I'm going to see if NC Soft will and if they won't then I'll find somewhere else to spend my money. I hate resorting to such tactics but at the end of the day the only way to get corporations to listen is to start hitting them in the wallet. While I don't pretend my 80 bucks is more than a drop in the bucket you better believe I'm not going to be the only one that is going to pass on your products. I'm probably just the most vocal about it.

So as someone who has to work with customers and clients every single day I urge you to do the right thing and make the apology, publish the apology and be more considerate of your community before your green light articles. I'm not saying you should put it to democratic vote or anything like that, but try to get a better grasp on the people you serve. The first step towards doing that is to soothe this situation.

You are critiquing more than actually objecting to the existence and presence of the article. I, for instance, would have titled the article differently. But, I do not reject or express outrage at the article because of my opinion.

So, your assessment didn't have a place in my example spread, consider that a good thing. You have a reasoned position, not an emotional or hysterical one.

It is really sad people are offended and wanting an apology on an article they claim that is 'condescending' and 'common knowledge' ???

So common knowledge is now offensive?

Wow - just wow.


As for the gap between PvP and PvE - its moot. GW PvP is dying. Koreans left. Americans are half way. Europe will eventually join IMO.

I dont think an apology is an outrages request at all.

When you have accidently or unaware that your oppinion/action/words hurt someone, the decent thing is to say some of the most powerful words to mending broken relations. "Im Sorry"

If Anet and/or the author made some kind of "Im sorry that this action offended you it was never intended for that. Ill be sure to take these complaints to heart for future articles to be better at avoiding offending people in the future". If something like that was given im sure a hell of a lot of the outcry the article would be gone the people would accept the apology.

Right now the damage control "we reviewed and still dont think anything is wrong"/"Its not us its you" attitude is only hurting more.

As was stated and from someone whos worked with customers all my life of working so far and always will really you cant alow a large portion of people to harbor such ill feelings to your company.

A company when they screw up and disatisfy a customer have to go out of there way to make amends to the situation. If they give the customer a faulty product they give em a new one and say IM SORRY for the inconvienence. A food indostry when brought forth with a complaint of bad food gives the customer a new fresh plate to there standards, often on the house with an IM SORRY the first dish wasnt to your standards. Not every time do you give out faulty or broken furniture, cds, clothing, food, etc so not everyone is obviously offended but hurting them happens and when you get that percent whos upset the good successful companys say those little powerful words and it goes an incredibly long way to making the disatisfied cstomer happy. In fact it makes em happier then they would of been if they got it right the first time cause it shows that that business cares for there customers and they want to keep there business.

To even extend that further a business BEST advertisment is Word of Mouth. They can give all the comercials, billboards or radio or TV ads they want but the best way to have there product or service promoted is through the customers they have allready.
I believe the figure is for every 1 happy customer you get they tell 1 person about how good your company is. But for every 1 upset customer you have they tell 10 people about how bad your company is.

So no its not unreasonable for the upset people that article offended to expect an honest apology. Its only natural and an honest fair thing that anet and/or the author to make would be to take some humble pie and hand really just say those powerful words. "Im sorry"

State of the Game— February 28, 2007
(a re write) From PvP to PvE

By GloryFox


The Guild Wars community is deeply polarized around PvP and PvE. Very few players dedicate a lot of energy to both, and fewer yet are successful at both. One reason is the difficulty in learning PvE when you're accustomed to PvP; the two sides of the game are designed differently. There's a huge hurdle here. Someone who has learned the game while just by creating a PvP character has a lot to unlearn to have a chance at playing PvE at a high level. It causes a lot of players to miss out on the beautiful PvE system, which, to my mind, is the shining feature of the game.

In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvP players make when trying PvE, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp. Hopefully this article will help experienced PvEers as well, in that they can post a link to it when they don't want to explain why Mending isn't a good way to stay alive.

First, some concepts to internalize if you hope to succeed in Mission based objectives:

1) Versatility in teams, not in characters
In PvP you can't always count on your allies to cover your back, so it's understandable when you bring some defensive skills even if you are a damage dealer. In PvE, if you can't count on your teammates, then you can't hope to win at all. Make sure your character focuses on what it's best at, rather than spreading too thin.

If you are a Monk, don't cast Fire Magic spells. You have the Divine Favor primary attribute, so your healing spells are inherently more effective than anyone else's. Use your Energy for that and leave the Fire Magic to the Elementalists.

The exception is the split character. If you're running a character designed to split off on its own to Draw aggro or protect NPCs near an enemy base, it is perfectly fine to bring several self-sustaining skills.

2) There is tanking against Enemies
In the same vein, run Shield Stance or Dolyak Signet on your Warrior to help hold aggro. A PvE Warrior needs to focus on holding aggro, because opponents do not ignore defensive Warriors if he can hold them and won't go after softer targets. If you do enough aggro containment, you accomplish two goals: 1) you force the opposition to pay attention to you, drawing fire away from weaker allies; and, 2) your allies kill enemies before they kill your allies. A Healing Signet to lighten the load off your Monks is a bad thing as it affects your armor keep it up, but don't try to be too aggressive. Alone against several skilled enemies, you will accomplish everything. As a Warrior, your ability to keep your teammates from dying is very important. Focus on drawing aggro to yourself before your teammates die and let Monks, Paragons, and Ritualists handle defense.

3) Resurrecting is a Monks job but not always.
Though most resurrection skills are Monk skills, they're not best used on a Monk. If your Monk begins to cast something that takes six seconds to complete, the enemy team has a huge window to bring all of their damage to bear while one of your Monks is rendered completely useless. Expect a good Ai to get at least one kill in such a window. It is better to bring several Resurrection Signets on damage dealers and one rechargeable resurrection skill ("hard rez") on a midline character like an Elementalist or Paragon.

Skills

The following are some skills I see constantly in Hero's Acent, Random Arenas, and Team Arenas, almost always on the losing team. Most of them are useful in PvP, but they just don't work.

Mending
Mending – Hailed by many PvPrs as the most useful skill in the game, it provides a constant, accessible, and fairly cheap source of healing. However, it has no place in PvE mission, and is actually a long-standing joke in the PvE community. Skilled Ai try to kill in one of two ways—either by spiking you out or overwhelming force. A spike is designed to kill a character in a fraction of a second, during which Mending offers little help. When faced with a spike build, Monks need Energy for skills like Infuse Health and Protective Spirit. Running Mending reduces the Energy available for other healing. Overwhelming damage is similar to how players try to kill you in PvP, but in PvE it's far more versatile, pinpointed, and coordinated. A good Overwhelming Ai carries Enchantment removals, Energy denial, and similar things. To counter this, you need truly Damage Management spells like Spirit Bond, Spellbreaker, Reversal of Fortune, and Convert Hexes.

Healing Breeze.
Healing Breeze – This one returns quite a bit of Health for the Energy investment, but it suffers from one of Mending's problems: it requires ten seconds to have its full effect. Though seemingly less efficient by comparison, Monks need spells that replenish Health immediately. A strong Ai can overcome the Health regeneration of Healing Breeze and kill a character in a few seconds, not to mention remove the Enchantment and destroy its efficiency altogether. Healing Breeze isn't useless though, as it can sometimes be effective in split situations against fewer enemies.

Remove Hex
Remove Hex – A popular and straightforward spell, but never used in top level PvE play. The reason is the two-second cast time, during which a monster spike team can easily drop one of your allies. A better choice is Holy Veil, which has a shorter activation time, the added benefit of pre-casting, and potentially immediate Hex removal. It takes a bit more player skill and hand speed because you have to quit maintaining it right after you cast if you want to remove a Hex, but it's easily worth the work.

Rebirth
Rebirth – Useful in PvE for resurrecting allies and pulling them out of monster aggro range, but thats about it. Ai's aren't dumb; they will see you casting a resurrection spell if in aggro range and pounce on you right away. Rebirth is probably the worst resurrection spell you could bring in PvE if cast in the middle of a fight. The best replacement is usually Resurrection Signet, as the full Health leaves the revived character much harder to kill immediately. Make sure there is a boss nearby to kill to make sure it recharges. If things are going very bad make sure the one with rebirth (usualy a monk) moves to a safe location.

Heal Area
Heal Area – This skill attracts a lot of new players because it produces big healing numbers. However, large numbers don't matter if you can't get close enough to help your allies. The most effective way of staying alive in PvP when targeted is to move away from the source of damage, rather than standing still and trying to heal through it. While the second approach is sometimes necessary, you should avoid it if possible as it quickly drains your Monks of Energy. Heal Area also has the negative side-effect of healing enemy monsters in range.

Illusionary Weaponry
Illusionary Weaponry – While not a completely useless skill, it is mediocre at best yet very popular amongst beginner PvP players. Even though it cuts through blocking skills, armor, Blindness, and anti-melee Hexes, it is susceptible to simple counters such as Enchantment removal. Also, the damage it produces is far less than an Empathy spell on a Boss monster, and placing a Mesmer in the front lines is like waving a steak under a dog's nose. Mesmers are much more effective positioned in the midline with ranged spells and thus not exposed to immediate attack.

Animate Flesh Golem
Animate Flesh Golem – A good tank and destraction in PvE. Most Ai ignore the Flesh Golem and kill your Monks instead, making you wish you had brought an elite skill that could deal more damage, but thats ok Animate Flesh Golem is fun. (hint: FUN IS OK IN PvE) One such elite skill for a minion-based Necromancer is Jagged Bones, which has excellent synergy with bone minions. Make sure your team has a minion master on your PvE team though, because corpses are very abundant in PvE both monsters and yours. Also it gives the Ai something to pound on other than you.

Frenzy
Frenzy is a warrior’s best friend in PvP by its popular use, but in PvE missions and quests it will get you killed faster than a henchman monk can physically respond. Don’t’ get me wrong you need to attack faster when you need to attack but please find another suitable fast attack skill such as Berserker Stance, Flail or Tiger stance. Remember you’re a tank do the job of a tank and reduce the damage you take not increase it.

Disclaimer

Eventually parts of this article may become outdated with new balance changes. Remember Monsters don't rage quit or Flash Emotes and that the best way to learn about the game is to observe Monster behavior during missions, and watch the aggro range. Good luck making the transition from killing players to killing monsters.



About the author
GloryFox has been playing GW since it came on the market and misses the days of no Rank Emotes. He has two GW accounts one PvP and one PvE and held rank 11 with his PvP account before he chose to go pure PvE. GloryFox has 10 PvE characters in DoA and has released Razah for 7 of his 10 characters. GloryFox does not like raisins in his oatmeal cookies but prefers chocolate chips.

This article was not a mistake and no apology is needed. Please read Kuldebars post its basically right. I dont understand how youre offended unless you simply didnt read the article closely and jumped to conclusions based on content that wasnt there.

Every time the discussion of PvP and PvE comes up it becomes a useless rant fest. People say valueble things on boths sides but it gets largely ignored because people just want bitch. Ive tried in many threads to have reasonable discussion about this topic but it doesnt ever work and Im sick of it.

1) the mentioned skills are bad in PvP contexts generally
2) new PvPers still use these skills with a lot of frequency
3) new PvPers are in most cases coming from PvEing
4) many PvEers think these skills are good (there are about a million mending threads I think...ok thats an exaggeration, but if you dont think there advocates of these skills look around the site)
5) many PvEers realize these are not so hot
6) In general a good player, be they PvE or PvP, will realize what skills are valuble for the task at hand and what skills are not.
7) If you are a good player this article wasnt about you, and it said so explicitly, so dont freak please


I cant help but think the only reason there is such massive annoyance with this article is baggage from other PvE vs PvP threads.

Some people might want to try to get into PvP from PvE...it happened to me and its happened to many others. For those NEW players the point of this article was to help them avoid common pitfalls you still see today. You might be a hardcore PvE player and have tried PvP and found it not to your liking. Great, fine, more power to you. Enjoy the game! But just because this is your expereince doesnt mean its everyones, and it doesnt mean that many PvE players who have never tried PvP shouldnt be encouraged to give it a go since its a huge part of the game and can be a great experience.

Your attempt on putting the shoe on the other foot failed miserably. It moved from mediocre op-ed to unintelligible and sophomoric attempt at satire.

Damn you, GloryFox, you beat me to making the PvP-->PvE primer...

You win. =D

No that article was a mistake in judgement and an apology should absolutely be rendered here. You don't just apologize for mistakes you apologize for offense, whether it was intended or not or whether you agree with it or not, particularly if you are in the business of customer relations and service. It's so basic that even the sixteen year old kid manager at McDonalds knows how to do it. You acknowledge the problem, you apologize, and you fix it. In this instance an apology is the only fix needed for this. One thing you do not do is try to take the high ground. Even if when you say I'm sorry what you really mean is " I'm sorry you are such an idiot you took issue with this." I don't care if it is a superficial apology. It would be better than this " It's not us it's you" stance that they chose to take, which is more insulting than the article itself since it minimalizes the feelings of a significant enough portion of their player base.

This stance is hurting more than it is helping and the more they stick to their guns the more they are going to alienate these people who are already feeling as if they got left out to dry.

Gaile, you're paying too much attention to this thread. (5 posts, OMG!) I think there are some scrubs in LA int1 crying about being unable to stack old and new dyes, go pacify them. Shoo.

Nah, i think we're about to see the second coming of Guild wars...

At least I'm hoping so, or I'm gone

All the hurt feelings are basically a the result of confused mass hysteria generated by the people in this thread. This article WAS NOT a mistake and I havent seen a bloody thing in any posts to indicate why it might be other than the repeated claim that people are angry (why I still dont know). This means the percieved wrong is just that, a very subjective feeling that has been fostered by a lot of thoughtless ranting (think mob of south park citizens). In this case it would be like asking MCdonalds to apologize for the term BIG MAC because it seems to insinuate that the people buying them are fat. Maybe its good corperate policy to say sorry for such things, who knows. But on a much more important and non superficial level there is NO apology needed and you really need to stop being so lame.

At this point it doesn't matter why all that it matters is that it's not just me, or me and one other guy. It's a whole bunch of people who are ticked off about this thing. That says something right there. If it was just a handful of people on one forum it would be different but we are talking about a significant portion of players from several forums. The fact of the matters is that The article offended people, more than just a few people. It doesn't matter if the reasoning is off or if there is no logic behind them taking offense. In other words the reasons behind the phenomenon are immaterial all that matters is the event itself. You deal with the event not the reasons behind it. I know I'd be fired right now if I took that same stance with an offended client or group of clients, particularly if they weren't asking for any sort of compensation aside from an apology.

I can see your arguments. I don't agree with them and I still think the article itself is insulting. My point is the time for debating whether or not the article is offensive is passed. People got offended and now it's time to make that right and smooth it over. If they aren't willing to do that they have lost my business and I will not offer any favorable word of mouth either.

To respond to Winstars response to me.

I still echo I think its not an outragous cry for some people to want an appology.

I myself was a bit upset with it and found myself grinding my teeth a bit when I read his article for reasons I stated and echo now: Not what he said but HOW he said it. Sure there was good tibits of info but ultimatly it was lost in the impression he left to many on how he was saying it.

I say again an apology is fair cause a large number of people were in fact upset to a much greater degree then I was(I found it midly annoying but shrugged it off thinking he wasnt the first wont be the last and how Ive probably done similar issues to that).

Im gonna further Stobos example since I happen to be one of those young McDonalds managers well studying to become a carpenter.

When someone comes to me with say there Burger wasnt what they wanted and/or there food is cold. We take that food and make there burger right and make sure its all fresh and out of vats and grills and all to make them happy. We also, depending on the severity of the issue will mostly hand them a free pie or give em a refund of there meal well giving them the fresh and right order. But to make it better and what te customer really wanted in this scenario is acknologment that we screwed up and apologise. Generally the famous words to the incredibly irrate and upset I say is "Im really very sorry we screwed up on your meal, heres a fresh order to what you wanted. Im really sorry". Youd be surprised at how saying that to someone that was in a bad mood with a raised aggresive voice, near or at yelling sundenly calm down and more often then not I hear in return "Its ok" or "Dont worry about it. mistakes happen".

Or there is times when a customer has in fact misintereted a joke an employee tried to make to liven the mood or just something in the convo. They get upset from this joke/oppinion and what do I and the employee say to this customer. "Im sorry we upset you. It wont happen again". Guess what, problem solved before it became something real bad.

Another example I will be faced with when im a full carpenter and not a student is as an example say we shingled a roof but somethign bad happened along the way we didnt know about. We get a call, there roof is leaking there upset. What do we do. We apologize on the phone to them and go out promptly to fix the problem at our expense in an ASAP manner and again apologise to the home owner about how we screwed up and caused him this inconvience.

This article personally to me didnt make me lose any sleep or hours in the game but I can CERTANLY see where the outcry is comming fom and can see and agree to the need of an apology in some honest form.

Whats more upseting and disheartning to me is the aloof nature that has been returned to those outcrying and upset with the whole "quit yer bitching" attitude. That is not a fair attitude to take and only makes the issue worse and further strengthens and makes the present rift between the 2 W communities stronger and worse.

I can be as proud and stubborn as I want and it can get right up there to bad, but the thought of how some people have such a hard time admiting a mistake or even just apologizing to someone cause you offended them still shocks me. :s

Tipical British reaction, face it everything to brits is a joke anyways, that is why they don't even get offended at jokes that insult the royal family. "Bloody well absub, I say, those dam yanks. Always pissing into the wind, when there feathers are ruffled" Sound familar Winstar?

Well here in the states, things are a bit different, any company that deals directly with the public, weither it be the press, politics, corporations, if a comment or article is taken out of the original context that it is meant for, then it is politicly correct to offer an apology and retract it to save face with the public.

I have to disagree. The logic and reasoning behind the feelings is what is most important. If a person is not willing to take some time and seriously examine why they feel as they do, and as a result to take appropriate action then there is a problem. I agree that one cant help ones immeadiate reactions in many cases and they cant be faulted for that. BUT one can take 2 minutes and examine why they feel like they do and if they are overreacting then they can realize this, calm down and deal with it. If they arent overracting then they can take the appropriate course of action in the face of the injustice. This is thread is a case of the former not the later, and it is the responsibilty of people as mature adults (or people becoming so) to at least try and use your brain instead of simply being tossed around by their emotions.

If youre going to push your weight around by playing the youre not getting my business card then go for it, and maybe on some commerical level you have a right to. But on a more important level you are in fact being lame.

I've had 24 hours to think this over. I think the article itself was presented in a condescending manner. I think the target audience for it was talked down to, by that I mean PvE'rs who have gotten to level 20 and more than likely to at least one high end area. Basically people that already know the stuff the article addressed. That position and the material presented created an atmosphere of condescension. I think that Anet, while certainly not responsible for the content, should have exercised more editorial oversight given the nature of the community and how polarized it is. I have examined my reasons and I find no flaw in them. Granted a lot of it is subjective but then again when we are talking about bruised feelings we're talking about a subjective thing in the first place. That being said I don't think I'm being lame if, after sleeping on the issue and examining it, I feel the same level of offense.

The lukewarm response from Anet to this hot button issue has not helped matters any at all. From a customer service stand point alone their reaction and handling of this matter has been horrendous. As a loyal customer I feel I have been mistreated and my complaints marginalized and that is bad business no matter how you look at it, particularly when I, and many others, are not demanding any sweeping change to the product, we're not asking for anyone's head on a plate, and we aren't asking for any sort of compensation. All we want is an apology and their stubborn refusal to do that is just making a bad situation worse.

LOLOLOLOL

I am not british. Im Canadian old chap, so perhaps I should say things like this,

Hey, wuts the big deal, eh. I cant see what all the fuss is aboot.

Anyway...

I realize that in our cooperate society that it has become politically correct to make an apology for any possible offense absurd or otherwise to the public for whatever the percieved harm might be. Fine push for your apology. At a more important level I hate this fact about our society and I think it reflects the worst of the Karmer suing the coffee company for spilling coffee on his lap mentality. This thread also reeks of groupthink and hysteria generation.

Yeah, it's called a rioting mob.

Look, that guy is taking that television from the store window, I'm not the only one!

Look, let's go on a witch hunt and burn people at the stake! I mean, a lot of people feel scared, it must be the devil and his coven of witches!

Yeah, after a mob gets going, little else does matter until it has spent itself out.

LOLOLOL

I coundn't agree more, I guess we found our common ground on the issue.

As my Assie friend use to say, "It's water under the bridge, let it flow down stream into the falls of time."

Thanks for the well written response,

I have to agree that if there was a serious injustice done, then there is a right to demand an apology. I have no problem with that. I think in general customers have a right to demand better from companies. BUT I also think there is a more than that going on in this thread.

I have to reiterate something said before by many people. This article is clearly not directed at people who know better but at people who dont. I dont think its ambiguous in any way. But this thread has been a hysteria generating machine for anyone looking for a reason to complain about the topic of PvE v PvP. Its been this way in every thread on this topic EVER on this website. There are strong feelings here about this topic and they were present and raging before this article ever hit the website.

I dont think its mob hysteria so much as 2 strong oppinioniated groups clashing.

I think its gotten fairly bad but it seems to pick when you see the PVP is better or PVE is better attacks in there varying forms in this thread.

Hell all you have to do to create like 4 pages right now real fast is same something like "PVPers are arrogant jerks" or somethign equally inflamatory and over generalised about PVE.

But if you look through those inflamatory dung heap piles you do find those bits of honest gold and they do have similarities.

The flaming unhelpful bits aside BOTH sides say yeah he had some good points but the offended side is adding, and fairly and rightly so that he really made those points come out in the wrong way and in a way that a mass majority of the "apposing side"(which is not an over exageration)feel upset and offended to.

There feelings are fine and legit not lame and im pretty damn sure this wont be the last time somethign like this happens either and when it happens it could again happen to the PVEr side or it might happen to the PVP side that time.

However its not fair or right to simply dismiss the upset with a "quit yer bitching attitude" in whatever form you choose for those words be the polite and sugar coated or blunt and to the point. What matters is to acknowledge that hurt partys feelings and make honest attempts at making amends that show you trully listened to there complaint, took it to heart and trully want to dispell there upset feelings and truly make it water under the bridge.

People can forgive and forget or let bygones be bygones but you need to show them an honest reason why to follow that path and get rid of the ill feelings there now harboring from the offence or hurt. You cant simply tell them to quit there bitching and expect it to be so. It only makes the matters worse.

Heh, It's quite simple the article sucked in some way (when ISNT there some little issue?). Now many folks are trying to cash in on that as if it were a personal affront. I think you got that dead on Winstar.
Big deal, so the article didn't speak to you and make you want to cheer. It's just an article. The pve/pvp rift is wider now than it ever was, it's hard for new folks to get into higher end pvp since the older hands want to win. It's a natural progression, and understandable. This article (and in fact NO article) can ever hope to correct this state of affairs. If you really hate the article, write one of your own and send it to Anet as a resume. Then folks can whine about your writing.

I never failed to acknowledge anyones feelings. I said that those can't be helped. All I ask is that we examine them carefully.

I agree completely and have stated clearly that I think this thread simply claws at underlying PvE v PvP tensions that have been present in every thread ever on this topic. I think the underlying emotions are clouding peoples judgements on this article and creating a degree of hysteria that is unwarrented given the article.

I think that this is at worst a not so useful article. New PvP players need better information than this even though most of it is correct. I don't think this is scathing condescending criticism of every PvE playing in the game. All I ask for is a little perspective, and there is nothing wrong with that given that this thread has quickly generated into a giant flaming snowball of fury without much warrant.

Sure writers in a sense are in a lose lose situation when they write an article if we want to look at things pesimisticly. However its not always as bleak and confrontation/plroblematic as our current situation if certain steps and considerations are taken right?

I mean, probably not the best example but someone could possibly write an artical about how they like to eat babies get in thar bella! And so long as there aware there about to enter a controversial section in there artical and take proper precautions to avoid offending. Offending could be avoided all together. People would dismiss, agree or think funny the artical, but take offence could be dismissed to an almost literal non existence.

Articals to summerize them have 4 parts: Introduction, Opening argument, Closing argument, Conclusion.

In regards to the article that has caused this problem if we look at it he did a fairly good job. Going from top to bottom:

Conclusion was fine overall. Was what it should be, closure. Opening and Closing arguments were ok, albite a bit scetchy at times but overall you could walk away from them since they were oppinions of argument.
However I think where the problem resides is in the most important part of an artical. The introduction. It was in there people started and fairly so taking the over generalization that led to all this mess. The rest of the artical gets lost cause by then your reader is upset. There no longer reading to enlighten themselves to wisdom there reading "to see how much more ignorant this jerk is". So suddenly his tibit on skills no longer become examples(even though they werent that great, aka: the mending one) they become gasoliene to the fire of hate.

It is because of this were in this problem now. The intention as I honestly believe was never to insult the other half of the Guild Wars community(the PVErs), however he did give that impression ingraned into the PVErs brains.

Well foolish or not if you take the time to think on it you can see where the misinterpretation can come from. I believe even Gaile has admitted to the areas that can and have become the problem we have now, and they are fair to misinterpret into the fashion of upset anger theyve gotten. I go back to my bad joke theory on this.
You say a bad joke it upsets someone well others around you laugh. However out of your group of 10 9 are laughing but 1 is offended/upset. Its only poliete to apologise to that 1 and when you pop another funny out become more aware to the upset guy and try to change the joke around in a fashion where it doesnt lose its origional meaning or intention but also doesnt upset that 1 guy this time.

I think thats what people want to see and its fair to see that.
They dont want some inpersonal disclaimer. Just an honest attempt for the guy to say "I dont mean to offend if I do im really sorry".

Perhaps a solution to this is for the future instead of placing the inpersonal disclaimer stamp have your authors write it personally in ther articals as they go. Like somethign so simple that if there about to enter a "controversial topic area" in there article they write it somehow that hey they dont mean to offend if there wording comes off as that well your reading there artical then there sorry they never ment it that way. If you have somethign like that in your artical then when the reader reads that well reading your artical as there entering your controversial area they will automatically have it ingraned that instead of becoming angry and irrate they will re read to see if they can see the wording in another light and thus avoid situations were in now.

At least thats my oppinion

While I can't disagree with the point that the Pve/PvP rift is at the core of this matter I don't think it is really the salt on the wound. The Pve/PvP rift is an established thing in this community and I think that the real factor in this whole debacle is that they went ahead and green lighted this when anyone that has spent any time in these forums would have told you that this article was going to cause a problem.

The article can be perceived as offensive, it was perceived as offensive. It shows a gross lack of insight into the community that they helped to build and to make matters worse they refuse to offer even a simple public apology. I gave Arena Net more credit for knowing their customers. I mean they have a presence on the forums, they listen to suggestions and I've never had a problem with the way they handle things until now. This is just uncharacteristic of their community relations and I'm frankly baffled as to why they are baulking at this issue. Still the fact remains that personally, as a consumer, my mind is made up and I will not purchase anything form them until they apologize and I will urge my friends, coworkers, and customers to not purchase NCSoft or ArenaNet products as well.

The "issue" is that there actually is no issue except what people are forcing to be an issue.

The article is being used as a scape-goat by posters that believe that PvP and PvE are somehow at odds with each other. And, this is not the subject of the article in any way, shape or form.

That's lame. I mean, really lame.

So, if I demand you apologize to me for making that ridiculous statement, will you do so? It hurts my feelings that you and everyone else doesn't agree with me, I want an apology dammit!

Saying "sorry" when it is "forced" doesn't do anything but give the people that bullied for the apology a raging boner.

Geez guys, get a grip. So it wasn't a very good article. Check. Nobody spit in your drink or called your momma fat. Give it a rest.