[State of the Game]: PvE to PvP - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

28 Feb 2007 at 05:02 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

It is interesting that you say this actually. I am one of the people who think the article was perfectly fine and unoffensive. But I think the emotions that stirred up over the article here and on other forums really brought to light the division between the PvE and PvP community. It is something that is basically undeniable now.

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

28 Feb 2007 at 05:05 - 162

Quote:

posted by Gaile Gray
Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

You correct right now ANET can't and until the community can come together it will get worse and become more polarized especially with this tripe being posted on an ANET website. I don't know what the answer is to bring the community together but I sincerely miss the early days of GW and the days of non-existing emotes. I hope an answer comes soon. If I can make a suggestion Gaile please look at the root causes for PvE player base to not get as involved with PvP play. If ANET can solve that mystery I don't think you will see the polarization in the forums anymore.

BTW... PvE players always welcome PvP players into thier fold in PvE missions. It would be good to see the same from PvP players.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 05:17 - 163

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

This isn't a matter of favoritism. This is a matter of recognizing a simple fact of the community your company is responsible for creating. There is PvE and there is PvP and those are the polar ends of the gameplay spectrum and the two seldom mix. The tension has been there for quite some time and I know you and the other staffers have a presence on this and other forums. How could you not have recognized that this would be a problem? I honestly gave you guys a lot of credit but I've worked in your world and I know a corporate script when I hear one. Rather than owning up to your lack of foresight You're straddling the fence, afraid to do anything more than token gestures for fear of offending either side too greatly, and the reason for this is because you don't play favorites. You can however be fair and in all fairness you had to have known this wasn't going to go over well. I'm not insinuating you're a member of the editorial staff responsible for green lighting this, but I assumed you were our go between. This was an error of policy and it's going to be raw until it is satisfactorily addressed.

Priest Of Sin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.

Live For The Swarm [ZERG]

Me/N

28 Feb 2007 at 05:20 - 164

Actually... I don't let rank 3+ into my groups. He's spent way too much time with Spikes and Pressure in HA for me to give a damn about what he can do in this mission. He can go screw himself, because he will be way too reliant on the whole team. Correct me if i'm wrong?

SCENARIO: my Alliance leader (rank 11 nublet) decided to come along with us in FoW. He single-handedly caused 7 near-wipes because he wanted the monks (and only the monks) to heal him. We tried explaining that we had him pack 3 Earth Prayers skills for a REASON, but he would not listen. He was then flabbergasted that the monk was using rebirth so that we could continue. His exact words were "Wow, our monk sucks. Why did I die? LEARN TO INFUSE... so we starting over? Wtf, why does he have a rez?"

-sigh- PvP turns the mind into goo. (jk)

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 05:24 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

This isn't a matter of favoritism. This is a matter of recognizing a simple fact of the community your company is responsible for creating. There is PvE and there is PvP and those are the polar ends of the gameplay spectrum and the two seldom mix. The tension has been there for quite some time and I know you and the other staffers have a presence on this and other forums. How could you not have recognized that this would be a problem? I honestly gave you guys a lot of credit but I've worked in your world and I know a corporate script when I hear one. Rather than owning up to your lack of foresight You're straddling the fence, afraid to do anything more than token gestures for fear of offending either side too greatly, and the reason for this is because you don't play favorites. You can however be fair and in all fairness you had to have known this wasn't going to go over well. I'm not insinuating you're a member of the editorial staff responsible for green lighting this, but I assumed you were our go between. This was an error of policy and it's going to be raw until it is satisfactorily addressed.

excellent post, Strobo -- you really cut through the fluff to get to the core issue. As long as anet nerfs a skill because it's seemingly unbalanced on one side, it adverseley affects the other side, and resentment is created. Throw on top of that the pvp controlling access to a pve area (uw/fissure), and more is created (there is a very interesting, and lengthy thread in this forum about that). Gaile claims that one side will always complain whenever something is done for one side or against the other, when in reality this division was created long ago purposefully by anet by trying to split resources between the two.

This division starts at the very first screen you see when you create a character: roleplaying or pvp.

edit: and one more thing, Gaile......retreating from the raw nerve that was hit with the posted article because it wasn't by a paid employee is weaksauce. If it's on the GW site, it represents GW.

Priest Of Sin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.

Live For The Swarm [ZERG]

Me/N

28 Feb 2007 at 05:30 - 166

I don't recall PvPers complaining about PvE nerfs. They're just very different nerfs, you see. In PvE, things are determined by brute force usually, with very little tactics involved. So, we get things dumbed down (minions, aggro, AI).

In PvP, it's all tactical (except spikes, the lowest form of PvP). When something is nerfed in PvP, the complete skill is reworked. (Spiritual Pain) Some skills are rightfully nerfed, and it cannot be helped that PvE feels the squeeze.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

28 Feb 2007 at 05:40 - 167

So... I'm gonna back off commenting further, because Str0b0 is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. I'll just let him speak for myself, lol.

I'm holding to what I said earlier, though, that you guys (Anet) are doing a really good job with both sides (PvP & PvE). The problem, as Str0b0 points out, is that there is a separation there to begin with, and instead of embracing that fact, you guys (Anet, again) continuously keep trying to glue the two sides together.

Just face it, because of the way the game is designed, there are two main groups in the community, and neither can really get along.

But yeah, take it from here, Str0b0.

gone

Guest

Join Date: Jan 2007

28 Feb 2007 at 05:53 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

since she(gaile) started posting here, not one person "yelled" at her. lmao they would be perma-banned quicker than you could say mod-brutality..

according to gaile, it is an opinion of a writer, and for her to try and explain someone else's opinion is frivolous, because it is -their- opinion.

the net isn't as anonymous as one might think -lol

DIH49

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2006

28 Feb 2007 at 05:57 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fossa

Have you evenr played PvE?

I have 10 PvE characters fully through their respective chapters. Many have gone through two or even all three. They all have multiple elites capped and several suits of armor. I helped alpha test ch3 PvE and completed most of it before the chapter was even released. In short, yes, I have.

Quote:

Because from your post it seems that you're saying that PvE is PvP light. It's a totally different game, if you try a PvP build and tactics in PvE you'd most likely fail. Miserably.

Actually you do amazingly well. When everyone was crying over THK, we ran IWAY straight from tombs and got so bored we had to camp their spawn points. But that's not the point I was making, I was talking about skill selection. In builds you choose the skills most effective, that's how flavors get formed. Since PvE is far more forgiving than PvP, many more skills flourish. Unfortunately PvErs often try to take those skills into PvP, which is not forgiving at all. It's a simple application of natural selection.

Quote:

Rebirth could possibly be one of the best situational res spells there is in PvE.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

28 Feb 2007 at 06:03 - 170

Quote:

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

I agree even if I disagree with the "State of the Game". Gaile nothing I write is intended to insult you in any way. You do us PvP or PvE a good service and you have a hard role to play. My thoughts and posts are constructive criticism of the situation at hand and are in no way personal. However I stand by my opinions and statements and I also agree with Str0b0 and the posts of many other veteran PvE players in this forum. That "State of the Game" post was not worthy of ANET posting it.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 06:07 - 171

While I get why many may be offended or annoyed at the extremely basic mistakes this article addresses, If you really believe "this is stuff *everyone* knows" then you A) never PuG in PvE and B) Never play RA/AB/Aspenwood. Mending wammos I see constantly, feigned/IW mesmers that try to play tank are popping up in RA (though I wouldn't have singled this out, it's more pvp-viable than PvE), and there are plenty of noob monks bringing rebirth into PvP and breeze anywhere. There are people who need to read this article, though I'm not sure how many of them actually will.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 06:19 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fossa

Have you evenr played PvE? Because from your post it seems that you're saying that PvE is PvP light. It's a totally different game, if you try a PvP build and tactics in PvE you'd most likely fail. Miserably.
Rebirth could possibly be one of the best situational res spells there is in PvE.

2.8 cartographer titles says that I've played a lot of PVE. All of it was done with PVP builds (in fact I just loaded them onto my heroes from my pre-existing templates) and I blitzed through PVE faster than I've ever seen a PUG do it.

A (PVE only) friend asked me to help him do Gates of Madness, I came along, looked at his and his heroes builds, asked him to change them to what are essentially PVP builds with some minor tweaks, used the same PVP builds on my heroes and myself and smacked Shiro into oblivion.

The moral of this story is that PVE is *easier* when you use PVP builds, because PVP builds don't take garbage skills. I've held the view for a long time now that the thing that makes PVE difficult for the average player is their own retarded builds, not the game design. If they used PVP setups this wouldn't ahppen...

EDIT: And Rebirth is horrible, it essentially says "I accept that there is a high chance that we will catastrophically party wipe". Instead of accepting that, I just don't suck and don't party wipe...

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

28 Feb 2007 at 06:27 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

2.8 cartographer titles says that I've played a lot of PVE. All of it was done with PVP builds (in fact I just loaded them onto my heroes from my pre-existing templates) and I blitzed through PVE faster than I've ever seen a PUG do it.

A (PVE only) friend asked me to help him do Gates of Madness, I came along, looked at his and his heroes builds, asked him to change them to what are essentially PVP builds with some minor tweaks, used the same PVP builds on my heroes and myself and smacked Shiro into oblivion.

The moral of this story is that PVE is *easier* when you use PVP builds, because PVP builds don't take garbage skills. I've held the view for a long time now that the thing that makes PVE difficult for the average player is their own retarded builds, not the game design. If they used PVP setups this wouldn't ahppen...

EDIT: And Rebirth is horrible, it essentially says "I accept that there is a high chance that we will catastrophically party wipe". Instead of accepting that, I just don't suck and don't party wipe...

lol 2 things made me really laugh here along with the rest of this post of yours

1. 2.8 cart titles say you played alot of PvE hahahahahahaha
2. so exactly how do you rez your dead members of your party then. just leave them there.

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

28 Feb 2007 at 06:30 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

... Mending sucks in PvE too.
...

Why does all the 55 use mending again?

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

28 Feb 2007 at 06:33 - 175

Quote:

posted by dgb
PVP builds don't take garbage skills.

When will the pain and laughter end?

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

jayce

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/

28 Feb 2007 at 06:33 - 176

it is clear to me that ArenaNet designed Guild Wars to focus purely on PVP, yet there are way more people who actually PVE. this article is undoubtedly an attempt to get more people into PVP. its just that the author forgot that he was sitting at a 'Round Table'.

i understand the intended focus of the game.
i also understand where the bulk of people play (PVP or PVE).
what i don't understand is why would Anet even pretend to play with people's emotions by 1) allowing that article in its current state on the website in the first place, 2) leaving it there after the people (bulk of players) did not think that it was funny.

i have to agree with what Str0b0 has posted. i couldn't have said even close to the way he discribed it. but i sure was thinking the exact same thing that he was. i also think that Gaile should stay out of this one. i like her, but her last few post didn't sit too well with me. Anet now knows that there is a problem with the article. i just hope that Anet do not treat this like a petition in Sardelac Sanitarium.

Jayce Of Underworld

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 06:34 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

lol 2 things made me really laugh here along with the rest of this post of yours

1. 2.8 cart titles say you played alot of PvE hahahahahahaha
2. so exactly how do you rez your dead members of your party then. just leave them there.

1. So what exactly is your measure of how much PVE one has played? I'm trying to provide an indication here - otherwise everyone would just come up and say "you have no PVE experience".
2. It's called Res Chant. You use it in the battle, the thing that dies gets up, smacks the thing that killed it and then you move on.

Chris Blackstar

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

United States

28 Feb 2007 at 06:34 - 178

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

The fact that you responded to our concern is fair enough to show that you at least care about the situation at hand, but the rift is still there. Now how to bridge that rift, well I don't see it happening because both PvP and PvE players are in a pissing contest, an no way is Anet going to satify one group with out pissing off the other. In all honesty any player with any rank does not prove nothing as part of game play, I am only R1 because I don't play HA much, however I am still called a noob by PvP players out side of my guild who are R6 or above, however 1v1 and I defeat them hands down, why? Because rank means nothing in this game, all it shows that you are a grinder of fame, and is not extent on your abllity to PvP.

You want to explain the concepts of PvP vers PvE, it's simple, they are both the same, it requires team work, communication, orginization, and thinking out side the box, using tactics and stragities to best defeat your opponents. Add all that together with plenty of practice, and I can bet any type of team build can go far in any PvP area.

gone

Guest

Join Date: Jan 2007

28 Feb 2007 at 06:42 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

1. So what exactly is your measure of how much PVE one has played?

Protector titles help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

2. It's called Res Chant. You use it in the battle, the thing that dies gets up, smacks the thing that killed it and then you move on.

--Spell. Resurrect target party member with up to your current health and 5...29% Energy. This spell has half the normal range.

Rebirth lets a smart carrier who sees a wipe coming, run, break aggro, and rez from a nice SAFE distance. (if it comes to that lol)

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 06:45 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

If you're going to take for an example the trash brought by everyone in RA as an example of a PVP build, you're an idiot. There was an obvious implied comment that I was reffering to tested, proven PVP builds. Feel free to continue being obtuse though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Ok, do an experiment. Go out, get a PUG in a normal PVE area. See how many *clearly* bad skills there are. The last time I did it, I was watching Precision Shot, Dwarven Battle Stance, Blood Bond to name three being used. Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

Actually, save yourself the time and just look through the PVE build forums here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

It was meant as a general comment but whatever pleases you...

borkbork

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Me/

28 Feb 2007 at 06:46 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

...I am still called a noob by PvP players out side of my guild who are R6 or above, however 1v1 and I defeat them hands down, why?

This is a team game. I seriously hope you were trying to be sarcastic.

TsunamiZ

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

28 Feb 2007 at 07:01 - 182

another way to get more players to get into pvp is to offer more pvp armor and weapon skins to choose from. some of the current ones offered for pvp characters are either boring or hideous.

jayce

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/

28 Feb 2007 at 07:03 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Ok, do an experiment. Go out, get a PUG in a normal PVE area. See how many *clearly* bad skills there are. The last time I did it, I was watching Precision Shot, Dwarven Battle Stance, Blood Bond to name three being used. Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

dagnabit, i knew i should have puchased me a PVE unlock pack from the gwonline store.

Jayce Of Underworld

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

28 Feb 2007 at 07:19 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

Gotta agree with this. There is way too many selfish players that think the game should revolve around them and what they do (PvE or PvP).

As for Gaile Gray's earlier post, I can see why so many PvE people took the tone of the article personally. And it shouldn't be surprizing that people did. The article was all about don't do this, don't do that, and some of the scenarios he gave as bad examples of PvP builds (Fire Nuking Monk, for Pete's sake!!!) are not acceptable builds in PvE, either!! (And what right-minded Monk is going to use rebirth while ANY battle is raging?) Thank God that there aren't many who try that crap in PvE.

Want to do something to help PvE players make the transition to PvP? Give PvEers some ideas on learning how to PvP (Wait! I already said that earlier!), not a list of skills that suck in PvP (several of them suck in PvE, as well)

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

28 Feb 2007 at 07:22 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Tell that to the reigning champs. Or to the euros who won gold before that. Or to any of the other dozens of spike guilds that have held top 20, earned silver capes, and held their own in the playoffs. Or to any tombs player, where spiking is clearly the dominant strategy atm. Its only in guru forum wars that spiking doesn't work -- on guru every spike is infusable, disruptable, or splittable. But in the real world, it is alive and well and works in just about every game mode, every meta, and against just about every opponent.

You do have a point, but you’re also discrediting your previous statements. Simply being able to count from 3 did not get those guilds into the top 20; strategy, knowledge of skills, the current meta and player skill did. Saying that you only need to count form 3 to be good at pvp is such trash it’s not even a valid argument.

Quote:

PvPers like to pretend it takes much more skill to PvP; this is a joke. If you can follow basic instructions from a caller and run a bar you are given, you are as good of a player as at least half of the PvP players.

A build may only have one target or tactic caller, but ever person in the team needs to understand game mechanics and be skilled at their role. Simply following orders might get you by at the lowest levels of play, but you won’t ever be a good player without skill and understanding.

Quote:

If you are merely average in PvE, you can expect a lot of frustrating attempts to beat hard missions -- because they are always the same difficulty. In PvP, even if you are merely average you will win a lot of the time just because so many people are so bad -- and sometimes you will get lucky and win just for showing up.

Pvp forces you into becoming a better player… or being a permanent scrub. In pve bad players can keep sucking and still manage to finish the game. At any decent level of pvp you’re playing against the other team’s tactics and skill; you're playing against live human players who can out think you, outplay you and capitalize on your mistakes. In pve you’re fighting inherently dumb monster AI which is predictable and exploitable, and can't do anything but throw random damage at you.

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

Sea Edge

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

Black Eagles [BEG]

W/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 07:26 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

Tea Girl

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 07:37 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Edge

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

More like you will be the one who hero/hech everything in PVE when you don't feel like dealing with a E/R with savageshot or a R/E with firestorm.....

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

28 Feb 2007 at 07:41 - 188

Why do you blame the people using mending and all that crappy skills? You should blame A.Net for not removing them from game.

No crappy skills, no crappy players.

.defekt

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ex Talionis [Law], Schindlers Fist [ouch]

28 Feb 2007 at 07:45 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Edge

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

Wrong. The other weekend, about the ONLY time I've voluntarily done PvE (thunderhead keep) I ran with a PuG and a guildie.

Their dervish used Watchful Spirit and some other dumb enchant.
Their ele was an E/N with minions and grenths balance as their elite.

If THESE are the types of players that are near the END of prophecies, I would hate to see the PuG's before it.

I agree with Scout. Not sure why some skills are still actually in the game. Flamebait for those who use them, probably.

Nith47

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Void Walkers

28 Feb 2007 at 07:57 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

What do you think? What got you interested in PvP (or why aren't you interested)? Did you struggle with these issues and if so, how did you overcome them?

Guild Wars is the only "MMO like" game where i haven't really enjoyed the PvP. I'm a casual player and Guild Wars does not provide an enjoyable PvP experience for the casual player; Fort Aspenwood being a lukewarm exception.

I do RA from time-to-time, but never for long. While its entertaining for a little while the rewards for succeeding are small and the attitudes of many players are grating at best and more often offensive.

I like that to succeed in PvP in GWs requires skill, organization, and team work, however, I dislike the commitments that are required. I don't wanna sit around for 30 to 60 minutes organizing a party, get everyone on vent/ts, or ever feel obligated to play because it took so damn long just to get a group going.

I honestly feel the same way about PvE Elite missions. I love that they're a challenge, but I hate that most of that challenge is just finding the time to do 'em and managing other players.

Shmanka

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

In Your Head

The Brave Will Fall [Nion]

Me/

28 Feb 2007 at 08:16 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

Post 185 wins the thread! We can all now go home to our mothers!

@Gaile: Thank you for replying, but in all honesty I would have rather you stayed silent. I predict alot of people paying 15$ a month for what you just said.

cthulhu reborn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

the Netherlands

W/Mo

28 Feb 2007 at 08:43 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And nope, we're not going to ask the community to approve our content before we publish--that's simply ridiculous.

If someone threatens to quit over the publication of such a benign opinion article--or if someone actually does quit--I wish them well. There are a million thoughts behind that message, but in the interests of closure, I offer you zero offensiveness, condescension, or hostility.

I do not like the PvP game play and I love the PvE and I didn't think much of this particular article...but so what?

In response to your comments I can only say one thing: you are quite right.

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

28 Feb 2007 at 08:44 - 193

So, someone says that this will be an issue "until it is satisfactorily addressed" or something of that nature.

How?

Let's review:

Someone wrote an article.
Our Editing Team reviewed it, edited it, and we posted it.
Some readers didn't like it.
I personally found parts of the article less than warming, but that's ok, because I recognize it's one person's opinion, and I don't demand that everything I read be lockstep with my own opinions -- in fact, I like seeing a diverse representation of many different opinions.
I took the complaints to the Editing Team; they reviewed the document with heightened sensitivity to possible offensiveness, and they determined that, because it's an op/ed piece, and because it's not written with intention to offend, they stand behind approving it.
I respect their opinion, and I commend their professionalism in both the willingness to give the article a second consideration and in the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the review.
I suggested that we should clearly call out the opinion-based nature of State of the Game articles, and see to the addition of that note to every such article.
I continue to communicate to you, here, what we've done, and give the best and most straightforward explanations of the events that have transpired.

And here we now are. Some people saying we're being corporate, some implying that we're dishonest, some suggesting there is more that we are obliged to do. Really? I'd say we're being pretty upright about this, and that we're taking a pretty direct and active approach. So if you need more, tell me expressly what that would be. I see the demands for something, but I don't know what. Is it a demand to recognize that we have two communities in PvE and PvP, and to admit that they are often populated with different people? Done! Is the request that we state that the communities are often a loggerheads, or may fail to see eye-to-eye? Yes, that's true. Is it a request for more information about playing PvP, so that this article does not stand alone? Let me introduce you to the nearly two-dozen PvP Primer articles! Is it a request that we censor all controversial articles, that we fire the writer in question, that we upbraid the editors, that we only write articles on "safe" topics, or... ? You tell me, because I really think this issue has been addressed and we're well beyond issue and into needless drama and pointless, circular discussion.

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

28 Feb 2007 at 08:57 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

When will the pain and laughter end?

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

Again, this is comparing competent pvers to the dregs of RA, and vica-verca. Look at the scale, not everything is equal on a rung.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

28 Feb 2007 at 09:08 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So, someone says that this will be an issue "until it is satisfactorily addressed" or something of that nature.

How?

Let's review:

Someone wrote an article.
Our Editing Team reviewed it, edited it, and we posted it.
Some readers didn't like it.
I personally found parts of the article less than warming, but that's ok, because I recognize it's one person's opinion, and I don't demand that everything I read be lockstep with my own opinions -- in fact, I like seeing a diverse representation of many different opinions.
I took the complaints to the Editing Team; they reviewed the document with heightened sensitivity to possible offensiveness, and they determined that, because it's an op/ed piece, and because it's not written with intention to offend, they stand behind approving it.
I respect their opinion, and I commend their professionalism in both the willingness to give the article a second consideration and in the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the review.
I suggested that we should clearly call out the opinion-based nature of State of the Game articles, and see to the addition of that note to every such article.
I continue to communicate to you, here, what we've done, and give the best and most straightforward explanations of the events that have transpired.

And here we now are. Some people saying we're being corporate, some implying that we're dishonest, some suggesting there is more that we are obliged to do. Really? I'd say we're being pretty upright about this, and that we're taking a pretty direct and active approach. So if you need more, tell me expressly what that would be. I see the demands for something, but I don't know what. Is it a demand to recognize that we have two communities in PvE and PvP, and to admit that they are often populated with different people? Done! Is the request that we state that the communities are often a loggerheads, or may fail to see eye-to-eye? Yes, that's true. Is it a request for more information about playing PvP, so that this article does not stand alone? Let me introduce you to the nearly two-dozen PvP Primer articles! Is it a request that we censor all controversial articles, that we fire the writer in question, that we upbraid the editors, that we only write articles on "safe" topics, or... ? You tell me, because I really think this issue has been addressed and we're well beyond issue and into needless drama and pointless, circular discussion.

Gaile, the audience may be to the point where any little game change, or article can be said to favor one mode of play, PVE or PVP, over another. I can't help but feel that it seems that way from how skill updates look at least. The feeling is like a powder keg, and the article isn't the problem, but a spark under the powder keg.

If both communities were to be satisfied, one mode cannot be shown favoritism over another and despite what a little article has fueled here, it stems from something that is largely shown ingame through one mode negatively impacting the other. Part of the solution would be completely separating the two modes, because they really are separate experiences. This would involve ridding Divine Favor's influence on PVE areas, and incorporating separate skill effect descriptions for when the skill is used in PVE or PVP.

There are probably other aspects to the game that fuel the fires of PVE or PVP prejudice and the belief that the dev staff is prodding players into playing one mode over the other, but I am very tired and have to sleep.

Edit: I need to check my spelling more closely before hitting 'post'.

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

28 Feb 2007 at 09:31 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

I mostly agree with what you wrote, except for one thing. The skill level to excel in either PvP or PvE is quite high - though note the word "excel". In PvE one can be drug through every aspect of the game, have multiple FoW armors, and countless max titles. That isn't "excelling" in PvE - that is getting drug through the game by people who do.

I'm not one that excels at the game - I tend to either drag the group on or am the weak link (hence I hench/hero everything - I *hate* being either case and they are only ad good/bad as I am). But that doesn't mean I do not know greatness when I see it.

As to Gaile's explanation: this particular article is fairly bad. Saying "It is their opinion" doesn't really do much when it is an *official* article. It wasn't just a post on a website run by you - one amongst many. But one that you guys selected for publication, that is this person got a refereed publication through in an online publication. If nearly every article you guys got submitted made it through with some editing then that would be one thing, but in this case you selected it from how many? If just a few then next time do what other refereed publications do - tell what your requested topic is, format/size, and a deadline. It's not that hard nor is it new, other groups have been doing it for years. I'm willing to bet you will get a number of submissions.

Normally I side with Anet - I've been there done that (I worked in a research institute for about four years developing software and understand that we do not have access to internal documentation). But in this case it doesn't hold water for how this type of thing normally happens. Someone needs to have a better vetting process for articles - once they become official publications from Anet (and those are few and far between) it tends to say someone out there in Anet-land agrees with it. It's not a like a forum post where there is just a few minutes spent thinking about it.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

28 Feb 2007 at 09:44 - 197

Face it Gaile, this whole article has blown up in your face, PVErs resent it because you/the author have lumped everyone together, when really he only means to comment on 95% of the PVE population. It's gone beyond avoiding damage, you're now in damage control mode and you can't fight the fires as they crop up. The small number of rational posters who aren't actively inflaming the situation generally agree with you and that probably makes you feel better, but really you should ask the developers to put a /resign into your job, because you're facing rit spike on isle of jade and your guild lord is at 25% health fighting this.

Oh yeah. Rit spike. Nerf it. Nerf it into GOREDENGINE oblivion so that we can see all the PVErs cry IMO.

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

28 Feb 2007 at 09:46 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

Rebirth lets a smart carrier who sees a wipe coming, run, break aggro, and rez from a nice SAFE distance. (if it comes to that lol)

Although im strongly against the article in question, One thing in PvE that irritates me is people relying on rebirth. Its one of the first skills i get my new guild members to drop in end game PvE area's. Its much more reliable to not get into a near wipe situation. player skill over rebirth.
If you fail then try again and learn from your mistakes, then the wipes stop happening.

I don't PvP because i have no interest in it, But i still like to use efficient tactics in PvE, And rebirth is far from efficient.

My personal play style is one of the reasons the article offended me, and every member of my alliance. We are all PvEers of different levels and dedication and all had a discussion on how the article came across after reading it.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

28 Feb 2007 at 09:53 - 199

TBH, the only type of build I ever use Rebirth in is an MM. It's just not that great in any other build, honestly.

Now, in DoA, I could see a good use for it in more builds, mainly because 3 hours into a zone, it would really suck getting a wipe. All other areas, it's pretty easy to just redo it if you ever get in a party-wipe situation.

Remember, just about 99% of all the skills have their use in the right build. I mean yeah, there is that 1% that really is completely useless (Otyugh's Cry), but Rebirth is definately not in that 1%.

gone

Guest

Join Date: Jan 2007

28 Feb 2007 at 09:58 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

If you fail then try again and learn from your mistakes, then the wipes stop happening.

exactly when rebirth comes in handy...I don't want to re-do an endgame elite area because the last man standing used his sig. (notice how that happens?)
rebirth lets the surviving gamer retry/rez from a distance w/o having to /resign and start all over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

I still like to use efficient tactics in PvE, And rebirth is far from efficient.

seeing as you might have a tight guild that has active members, who listen (lol), you can prolly afford to let rebirth slide. go out adventuring with a group of nobodies, as a healer, who knows his job well, and you'll be warping/resigning to the nearest town/outpost pretty quick.