Please stop hammering the mesmer skills...i thought you wanted to improve them?
[Dev Update] Skill Balances and Hero Battles
Ferret
Again a PvP event has a permanent effect on PvE
Please stop hammering the mesmer skills...i thought you wanted to improve them?
Please stop hammering the mesmer skills...i thought you wanted to improve them?
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
[*]Capturing and holding any or all shrines on the map now contributes to your morale. The center shrine now grants twice the amount of positive “pip” arrows on the morale meter than other capture points. The secondary benefits associated with these shrines will remain unchanged.
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As for the other changes: the SP/BoA assassins still need a real nerf imo, I don't think the SP/BoS nerf is going to change anything. Like most people already said discord was nerfed in the wrong way but the changes for ritualists are good. I do hope to see more of these smaller updates in the future instead of the previously huge skill updates.
Terra Xin
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Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Ritualist
The following skills have changed: Gaze from Beyond: increased casting time to 2 seconds. Spirit Burn: increased recharge time to 8 seconds. Lamentation: increased casting time to 1 second; reduced damage to 15..75. When these skills were first implemented, they required the caster to be very close to a Spirit in order to use them effectively. We recently changed all such skills to work at a much greater distance, though they became too powerful. Our intention is for these skills to remain effective but not be out of scope with other damage-dealing options. |
I've been using a build that uses a combination of those skills since factions first came out, I was doing very well then, and 'now' its overpowered? What really pisses me off is that it took a lame-ass build like the following, to nerf these skills;
Wanderlust
Pain
Painful Bond
Spirit Burn
Lamentation
Gaze From Beyond
^ - whoever invented this build is an idiot, but I should thank the person, because had that one discovered that channelling outpowers communing in terms of damage, alot more skills could have been nerfed.
I'll get over it in like a week, in the mean-time... Anet you suck!!!
Wildi
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| [dev] update skill balances |
anet I fixed it for you
Kabale
The change to Discord is really bad. And there is no nerf to Burst of Aggression.
At least some skills were nerfed
At least some skills were nerfed
djbartek
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Originally Posted by Lord Oranos
In case the devs haven't seen any discussion on the skills:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10125730 -Many dagger attack issues, ie, no one uses them, buffing golden attacks, etc. Making leads useful, etc etc. People have talked about AoD being inferior, and it still is comparing the cost of both of the combo styles involved with hexed and enchanted. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115432 Honestly, I think BoA made the Shadow sin overpowered, not the hex. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10119903 -Another discussion on a skill that was "nerfed". Pats idea seemed to balance out the damage, while keeping the skill worth taking on a primary. This only saw play as a gimmick, I doubt it will see use again with a 2 second cast time. Its like putting a 2 second cast time on Searing Flames. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10125403 -Another skill discussed. In two threads. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10127114 |
I would like also to point out good Patccmoi post, where he proposes needed changes to sin elites:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&postcount=58
As for SP: it's obvious for me that this was done for W/A, and big TY AN for that. Maybe this will severe overusing this skill by warriors(they shouldn't be able to use shadowsteps as effectively as sins).
Lynnrose
Thanks for the update, but you forgot some major problems. Jade Isle and BoA still unchanged? Unbelievable!
bungusmaximus
Big ARGH at what they did to discord, but probably necessary. Too bad I found good uses for it in PvE paired with mark of rodgort . If it was me i would have changed the recharge but it's still a nasty spike then, especially if combined with a SP sin.
I like what they did to SP, especially after getting owned by a warrior using it in TA. like, hello, i just ignore the rest of your team and bash you over the head with no drawbacks. Some people say that they should nerf BOA instead, but there are more warrior stances and you can't nerf all of those IMO.
. If it was me i would have changed the recharge but it's still a nasty spike then, especially if combined with a SP sin.I like what they did to SP, especially after getting owned by a warrior using it in TA. like, hello, i just ignore the rest of your team and bash you over the head with no drawbacks. Some people say that they should nerf BOA instead, but there are more warrior stances and you can't nerf all of those IMO.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Then decrease the unconditional and increase the conditional damage - 1 sec on this spell makes it totally unusable. It is just as conditional as an interrupt spell - how exactly are you supposed to that with a 1 sec spell?
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Originally Posted by Draikin
This doesn't stop the holding builds, it makes them even stronger. This solution would work if the holding builds were holding *only* the center, but this is not the case. They usually have 3 characters spamming spirits at the center and an assassin running around capping the shrines. What you've done now is make them stronger, the extra shrines the assassin is capping will only make them win faster. Sure, maybe now I could make a 3 Mo/A build + Rt/A and control three heroes at once who do nothing but run around and teleport all over the map. Sounds like fun. The real problem is the fact that you only need to hold shrines to win, which will always encourage a defensive build since you don't need to kill to win. If you want this to work just include the TA/RA maps into rotation so running/holding builds are at a disadvantage.
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tacitus
The changes to discord and the rit skills are good in my opinion not perfect in the way they were done but at least changes have bene made.
I would have loved to see changes come to HA as well as/rather to hero battles
I would have loved to see changes come to HA as well as/rather to hero battles
Mysterial
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Originally Posted by Draikin
This doesn't stop the holding builds, it makes them even stronger. This solution would work if the holding builds were holding *only* the center, but this is not the case. They usually have 3 characters spamming spirits at the center and an assassin running around capping the shrines. What you've done now is make them stronger, the extra shrines the assassin is capping will only make them win faster.
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The change really will break holding builds, but unless they also significantly reduced the morale speed to offset the additional pips it'll just switch to a gimmick of running four characters with teleports and micromanaging.
Juicey Shake
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Originally Posted by Mysterial
If you can't beat down a single assassin with four heroes, you wouldn't win even if there were no shrines.
The change really will break holding builds, but unless they also significantly reduced the morale speed to offset the additional pips it'll just switch to a gimmick of running four characters with teleports and micromanaging. |
LightningHell
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Originally Posted by Juicey Shake
apparently you have not heard of the skill shadow meld
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=O
zwei2stein
At least one thing anet got right ...
makes changes AND explain why they were made.
makes changes AND explain why they were made.
Red
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
At least one thing anet got right ... makes changes AND explain why they were made.
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Just echoing a few comments here:
-) BLADES OF STEEL: Assuming three other attack skills and 13/14 Dagger Mastery, BoA sins have been running Blades of Steel at +60 for some time now. The only nerf here is assassins running 15 Dagger Mastery, who will strike for 10 less than before (remember that dual attacks hit twice!). Those of us running minor runes aren't nerfed at all.
-) DISCORD: .... well... at least we won't have to face HeroWAY Discord spike again. :x
-) SHADOW PRISON: I guess it hurts Eurospike and its variants--rather, any Warrior using SP - Dismember - Critical/Executioners--though warriors have taken Shock for a long time now, which effectively costs 10 energy (exhaustion!) anyway, right? I'm interested to see WHAT it does.... though, like Blades of Steel, this nerf does NOTHING to BoA sins, except -possibly- force them to lead off with Black Lotus Strike or take another rune of attunement? :x
-) HERO BATTLES: Just wanted to mention again how much I personally appreciate the effort to spice these up again. (heart)
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Bastian
An assassin is not going to be able to cap all 3 other points because my team of 4 will be pwning his ass
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Bastian
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Originally Posted by Draikin
Recall, shadow of haste, shadow meld,... You run to one shrine to pwn the assassin and when you get there he teleports back to the center and heads for another shrine. You cap one shrine, he's capping the center and another shrine. What do you do?
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Then split...
Choc
Good work on the Rit and Discord nerfs, it was definately needed. However, I cannot understand for the life of me why ANET didn't hit the BoA Assassins where it would hurt! The BoA skill, the BoA skill! Come on guys, simply change the duration to 0..9 based on your Strength attribute.
Bread Fan
.....WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET INFORMATION ON HA????????????????? ITS A WEEK OVER DUE. (even though we have been waiting months)
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Bastian
Realize that his build is crap and can't do damage because he decided to bring all teleport skills....
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Originally Posted by Bastian
Then split...
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- player assassin >> heroes
- player assassin >>>>> moving heroes (they don't use skills while running, easy target)
- center morale boost > all other shrines -> he only needs to cap the center and one other shrine to win.
Jetdoc
Thank you SO much for giving us the rationale for the skill changes. This type of feedback is really appreciated by the community.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by Draikin
It may be crap in any other PvP format, but here he's winning.
A few observations: - player assassin >> heroes - player assassin >>>>> moving heroes (they don't use skills while running, easy target) - center morale boost > all other shrines -> he only needs to cap the center and one other shrine to win. |
1. How is he winning? I can split 2 of my heroes to cover the shrine he is at. He can't cap, and he can't deal damage = pwnt.
2. Why do you have to split heroes to take care of the assassin? I can have 3 shrines capped with 4 (potentially 5) npc's. If the assassin is interested in teleporting everywhere by the skills on his bar, then let him. Chances are he doesn't have enough pure damage skills to outlast me or my npc's killing him. Interrupts would be a big thread as well against his self-survival skills. In general, it would be really leet to know when he has used a skill, and know the recharge of the skills to ensure a kill.
3. Let him have the center, if he has 3 defensive characters on the center, then I can cap the others and get random kills against a player capping shrines. If he wants to move his other heroes to cap a shrine with him, then the center will be left open for capping.
In general, I would expect to see much less defensive groups because of this change because of their lack of ability to cap/hold/do damage/movement...
Again, snares and speed buffs will be very effective, if not essential, in being able to do this properly.
I find it funny that you are speculating as to how these changes are bad, they were purposefully made to stop the defensive builds. I would be surprised to see defensive holding builds with 1 assassin ganker, it would pretty much spell insta-loss against a player with good tactics.
Zonzai
Thank you Gaile. We appreciate the information.
furbat
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Originally Posted by Bastian
You do realize what the mesmer's primary attribute is?
Wrong. Think about it. If you have an assassin that has capped the center shrine they get 2 pips for morale boost. If you hold the other 3 then you get 3 pips. An assassin is not going to be able to cap all 3 other points because my team of 4 will be pwning his ass - thereby netting me points for kill on the assassin for the time it took me to cap the points. Now I have greater kills and 3 pips of morale vs 2 pips. GG me. I would suggest bringing speed buffs and snares however. |
The thing is, SP sins can currently spike down a Hero while the team is moving before they can react to the damage. Hero AI is horrible while they are mobile. Heroes tend to react much better while the team is stationary.
I will give an example. Team1 is at shrine A. Team 2 is moving towards shrine A to attack team 1.
Team 1, flags his team to not move foward. While team 2 is approaching the SP sin on team 1 moves towards team 2. Teleports to the team 2 monk, unflags his team, and spikes down the monk. Often the monk will not even use a spell in defense even if you try and force cast a spell.
Some of this can be mitigated with player skill, but team 2 in this scenario is at a huge disadvatage.
Now if, the assasin is approaching a team standing still, this is not a problem at all.
Because heroes respond very poorly while moving, whether they are flagged to move or just following their human leader, it is very easy to use an SP spike to take out a monk while the team is moving. This is an issue with Hero AI and not assasins, but HvH is still flawed under this format.
An Ideal change would be to remove morale from the maps entirely.
Ekelon
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Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Ritualist
The following skills have changed:
When these skills were first implemented, they required the caster to be very close to a Spirit in order to use them effectively. We recently changed all such skills to work at a much greater distance, though they became too powerful. Our intention is for these skills to remain effective but not be out of scope with other damage-dealing options. |
J3mo
And I was hoping the old HoH came back -_-'
Well some of the changes are ok tho
Well some of the changes are ok tho
Sectus
I like the changes to hero battle. But I'm getting a bit tired of seeing anet constantly beating up mesmers.
I don't really know how imbalanced Wastrel's Demise was in PvP, but it was cartainly an okay (note, far from imbalanced) spell in PvE which is now a ton weaker. This spell was supposed to be used with the timing of an interrupt, but now being 4 times slower I got a feeling it'll be completely random.
If they really wanted to nerf it I would suggest this change instead:
"Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell (up to 5 equipped spells)."
That would reduce the damage by 21 (at 14-16 dom), but it would have little effect on pve since monsters carry few spells anyway. And you would still be able to time the spell.
(original description:
Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell.)
I don't really know how imbalanced Wastrel's Demise was in PvP, but it was cartainly an okay (note, far from imbalanced) spell in PvE which is now a ton weaker. This spell was supposed to be used with the timing of an interrupt, but now being 4 times slower I got a feeling it'll be completely random.
If they really wanted to nerf it I would suggest this change instead:
"Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell (up to 5 equipped spells)."
That would reduce the damage by 21 (at 14-16 dom), but it would have little effect on pve since monsters carry few spells anyway. And you would still be able to time the spell.
(original description:
Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell.)
Guildmaster Cain
Good thing my spike team doesnt depend on those skills. Too bad anet keeps nerving the Ritualist Skill-builds, but they OVERPOWER the Ritualist Bosses, *looks at the Heket Rit Boss in Vabbi with the 420 dmg (!) Spirit Rift spam*. Or that Margonite one in Torment, or the one in Cantha with Vengefull. Seriously, of all bosses, I fear only the Ritualist ones. And now, our ritualist Channelers spike and Spiritspammer builds are being destroyed one by one.
Glad to see something shift in the Hero Battle department, now the nubs are being forced to cap the other shrines as well. HB were always short for me, usually won 90% within 3-4 mins, it will be even shorter.
Sadly, we still can not get consecutive wins, which really makes HB suck for me. Change this and it would be attractive to more people I think.
And forget about nerfing any other skills, except STONEFLESH! It makes too many people sick with a socalled 'god-complex' in their unimaginative, ripped off builds in AB. It is way too easy to counter, but I do not want to be forced to have an enchantment remover with me every time I play AB.
Those are my 2 cents about nerfs and AB.
Glad to see something shift in the Hero Battle department, now the nubs are being forced to cap the other shrines as well. HB were always short for me, usually won 90% within 3-4 mins, it will be even shorter.
Sadly, we still can not get consecutive wins, which really makes HB suck for me. Change this and it would be attractive to more people I think.
And forget about nerfing any other skills, except STONEFLESH! It makes too many people sick with a socalled 'god-complex' in their unimaginative, ripped off builds in AB. It is way too easy to counter, but I do not want to be forced to have an enchantment remover with me every time I play AB.
Those are my 2 cents about nerfs and AB.
frojack
Good updates and a nice new way of dealing with adjustments. Telling people 'why' makes all the difference.
Rit spike (as much a fan of rit's as I am) was way too good. Definitely needed a nerf. Good call.
For the main skill update I'd really like for you guys to look at the Xinrae skills. A cost and recharge assessment would be much appreciated. Loved what you did to Kaolai. If you look at Mingson in a similar fashion that would be great. There's more (spawning attribute, spirit creation, etc.) but one step at a time I guess.
Discord is a quirky skill for sure. A 2 second cast is a bit much though. There are probably better options for adjustment.
All in all, this is a much better face for guys. These test weekends with feedback were interesting but the 'why' is far more useful and valuable to the community I think. Great work.
Rit spike (as much a fan of rit's as I am) was way too good. Definitely needed a nerf. Good call.
For the main skill update I'd really like for you guys to look at the Xinrae skills. A cost and recharge assessment would be much appreciated. Loved what you did to Kaolai. If you look at Mingson in a similar fashion that would be great. There's more (spawning attribute, spirit creation, etc.) but one step at a time I guess.
Discord is a quirky skill for sure. A 2 second cast is a bit much though. There are probably better options for adjustment.
All in all, this is a much better face for guys. These test weekends with feedback were interesting but the 'why' is far more useful and valuable to the community I think. Great work.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by furbat
While he is wrong on why SP sins will be stronger in this format, he is correct.
The thing is, SP sins can currently spike down a Hero while the team is moving before they can react to the damage. Hero AI is horrible while they are mobile. Heroes tend to react much better while the team is stationary. |
If there is only 1 SP sin, then I will probably move as a group to gank the sin. as he moves about. Dash isn't going to save him because I guarantee you I will have both snares and speed buffs in my and my hero's bars. 1 SP Sin vs. me and 3 or 4 NPC's = GG.
If there is a sin that is using Shadow Meld or some other lame skills (remember shadow meld is an elite skill) then they will not be able to do enough damage to make me care, therefore, I split.
Either way, with 3 heroes holding the center and 1 assassin ganking, I will win. There is not enough 1 assassin can do to keep me from capping and holding all 3 shrines without giving me additional points when I kill him.
Keep in mind, this is all based around the 1 sin + 3 defensive hero meta that is prominent in HvH. Other builds would be a completely different story, but the point of the update was to stop the potential of the above mentioned meta.
Shmanka
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Originally Posted by Ecko-
Oh please, dont be mad because your discord build that MATH was using to farm their way up the ladder got nerfed.
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If you cannot beat a gimmick build you don't even deserve to TA.
This skill was overnerfed, everything else is completely justifyable thank you, even if the shadow prison nerf was so damn late, Mesmers abused Gale and you nerfed that but not warriors abusing shadow prison? Oh well I guess late is better then never.
Sakura Haruno
BoA isnt really overpowered and if it gets nerfed will just switch to another 33% attack speed boost. theres many others\. if experienced the frenzy/dash variant is good.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
TomcruiseJr is 1000% correct. Its a gimmick build they deserve to exist, if your gvg build has condition removal that is OVER 1 seconds cast time your a horrible guild. Pure and simple, don't even give the argument of "I can choose what I want to play" because you don't it is a competitive environment if your enemies have Nuclear Warheads your not going to fight then with Slingshots and expect to win. Anything that is condition removal based which is massively played counters this skill. This includes: Draw Conditions, Mend Condition, Mend Ailment, Dismiss Condition, Restore Condition, Extiguish, Mending Touch, Signet of Malice... and the list keeps going. I see no justification to increase the cast time.
If you cannot beat a gimmick build you don't even deserve to TA. This skill was overnerfed, everything else is completely justifyable thank you, even if the shadow prison nerf was so damn late, Mesmers abused Gale and you nerfed that but not warriors abusing shadow prison? Oh well I guess late is better then never. |
If you can't beat gimmick builds (like warriors using Shadow Prison or Euro-Spike) you deserve to not even play TA....
I mean, c'mon way to be completely hypocritical.
noocoo
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Originally Posted by Sakura Haruno
BoA isnt really overpowered and if it gets nerfed will just switch to another 33% attack speed boost. theres many others\. if experienced the frenzy/dash variant is good.
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So, other examples?
Shmanka
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Originally Posted by Bastian
So, in your opinion, it is okay to nerf some gimmick builds but not others?
If you can't beat gimmick builds (like warriors using Shadow Prison or Euro-Spike) you deserve to not even play TA.... I mean, c'mon way to be completely hypocritical. |
This was a problem with shadow prison, warriors do not care that a hex or condition is on them as much as the degree of knockdown or pure constant DPS. The hex and conditions are bonus. Nothing about Shadow Prison warriors and Euro Spike is "gimmick" Iway is Gimmick, Bspike is Gimmick, and Rit spike became the new "Gimmick". You did not see builds of 6 Shadow Prison warriors and people complaining. Shadow Prison had one thing going for it, stronger effects then 90% of the other snares in this game for 5 mana.
A very, perhaps too completmentary skill warriors could use.
Discord Spike is something that Shadow Prison is not, conditional. It follows the exact line of OG spike. Something must follow in order for the effect to come through. This is gimmick due to the fact that things must follow in order for it to even work, ex Iway needed pets to die and the battle to last longer in order for the effect of most skills to eventually have great effect. Discord Spike needs a condition on the foe, and after one spike the monks and support should realize condition removal is priority.
Conclusion: Shadow Prison is abused, not gimmick. Discord Spike was overnerfed. Just because there is a notation for a build, does not mean gimmick it means it has popularity. Eurospike abused all the gate times and easy access NF gave as options.
Snype
could you please fix this while your at it?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124822
It really ruins recovery as a skill
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124822
It really ruins recovery as a skill
crimsonfilms
While I agree Discord was nerfed incorrectly, still many condition removals are not effective against it. Rotting flesh and such makes it more difficult than others would like you to believe. Yes you can still save the spike but with skills like Rotting Flesh and Enfeebling Blood and a built in energy management - two monks are easily overwhelmed by Discord spikes. Unless you will bring Martyr and/or Restore, the non elite condition removal is not enough to counter Discord.
I agree that the damaged should have been rolled back instead of the cast time increase.
I agree that the damaged should have been rolled back instead of the cast time increase.
Swift Thief
Please move bloodsong back... and put Anguished was Lingwah in channeling, communing does not need to have two pain spirits.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by furbat
An Ideal change would be to remove morale from the maps entirely.
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The rest of this update looks fine, though.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
There is a HUGE difference between gimmick and abused.
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This was a problem with shadow prison, warriors do not care that a hex or condition is on them as much as the degree of knockdown or pure constant DPS. The hex and conditions are bonus. Nothing about Shadow Prison warriors and Euro Spike is "gimmick" Iway is Gimmick, Bspike is Gimmick, and Rit spike became the new "Gimmick". You did not see builds of 6 Shadow Prison warriors and people complaining. Shadow Prison had one thing going for it, stronger effects then 90% of the other snares in this game for 5 mana. A very, perhaps too completmentary skill warriors could use. |
Additionally, SP is an Elite skill. I would be willing to suggest that because it is elite it deserves to be stronger than 90% of the other snares in the game.
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| Discord Spike is something that Shadow Prison is not, conditional. It follows the exact line of OG spike. Something must follow in order for the effect to come through. This is gimmick due to the fact that things must follow in order for it to even work, ex Iway needed pets to die and the battle to last longer in order for the effect of most skills to eventually have great effect. Discord Spike needs a condition on the foe, and after one spike the monks and support should realize condition removal is priority. |
As for Iway, the pets didn't really make much of a difference. It affected 1 skill on everyone's bar, and could be replicated by having any one of your teammated die. Remember, there were 8 resses in IWAY for a reason.
I would also be willing to say that yes, SP is conditional. Most notably, assassins running SP usually rely on the hex to trigger off-hand attacks. Without the hex they are useless. Does this make the change to SP any less deserved?
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| Conclusion: Shadow Prison is abused, not gimmick. Discord Spike was overnerfed. Just because there is a notation for a build, does not mean gimmick it means it has popularity. Eurospike abused all the gate times and easy access NF gave as options. |