[Dev Update] Skill Balances and Hero Battles

Yeah, well, It's harder to combo if I use Hex breaker or blocking. if Black lotus misses, they are screwed.

And if the hex fails, they are screwed.

So now I have a better way to counter them.



I never use it, because there are better elites. AP, Hidden Caltrops, Shroud of Silence, Beguiling Haze, ETC.

The skill update didn't change any of this...

The SP nerf was mainly aimed at Euro-Spike and SP Warriors. Assassins should have no problem with energy with the change...

If Black Lotus misses, they are screwed no matter if SP costs 5e, 10e, 15e or even 25e. Nothing you posted is impacted at all by the change to SP.

Assassins using Expose defense, Shadow prison, BoA and black lotus to start the chain must now care about energy management and have a minimum of 35 energy pool now.

I tried it yesterday. Bocking Lotus was screwing the assassins over pretty bad. Also hex breaker was too.


I'm just speaking from my experence.


I don't know what Euro-Spike is/was but I've seen the SP warriors, didn't nerf them overly. the ones I saw were using adrenal skills mostly.


Actually, They usually seemed to bring non invinci eles and my sin down pretty well.


Exactly. Either they don't get their expose out, BoA out, or they don't start with lotus, which leads to lots of bad things happening.

Well, using BoA before Lotus is dumb.

Anways, if an assassin can't manage their energy because of this change then its pretty sad.

Were you away from the game for the last 8 months? Blocking lotus and/or removing hexes has always been a way to stop SP sins - these changes don't affect anything from that standpoint. I would suggest taking a look at how the skills work so you understand how the black line of attacks happen...

Using BoA before Black Lotus is not Dumb, it's the best and quickest way to unleash the combo.

We never said that Assassin can't manage energy. We just say that now they HAVE to manage energy.

When it comes to EuroSpike, 2 things are key. The watch on the warriors for shadow prison. If there is a hex and there are no other hexes in the build... Eurospike does not have many except Diversion on the mes. If you see "Shadow Prison" on the top right corner of your screen your getting spiked, tell the monk and he infuses you. Thats how it is countered... nothing more, Eurospike beats the teams that are unprepared... and by unprepared I mean teams that do not communicate effectively and look for clues.

Yes it is. BoA is a stance, therefore it can be activated at any time. I would use it right after Black Lotus, thereby not losing any attack speed and still having the energy to use the rest of your combo.

Also, how is having to manage energy a bad thing? It doesn't really make the build any harder to use. Lets face it, the SP assassin is the easiest melee character in the game to play, except for maybe an RaO thumper. All you need to do is know where your number keys are and type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... all while being semi-conscious as to whether hexes have been removed to trigger your next offhand....

First point, we know BoA is a stance and can be activated at any time. The fact is that you lose attack speed when activate it just after the energy gain of Black lotus. Don't you think that Sins didn't test this and admitted that it's better to use IAS before the first attack skill?

Second point, it's the second time you deform my post. I never said it was a bad thing. I just said they have to manage now, and that was not the case before.

So you can use your first attack skill quicker? Whats the point? You're not spiking with Black Lotus, you're spiking with twisting, black spider, and blades of steel - those are the skills you need attack speed for so that your target becomes harder to heal.

The whole point is that these changes did not affect the way anyone plays an SP assassin. Unless that person is very very bad...

I did some experimentation with this. Going from RA to TA I was running a Melandru Imbue Dervish. Since BoA I have been running imbue to save monks from being spiked down by the BoA nastiness. In RA the BoA assassins are horrendous, as expected. I would usually see them not use expose or not even finish the chain. This is most likely because they are inexperienced and are using low energy weapons, non zealous daggers, no attunement runes, non radiant armor sets, etc. So yes to the population of noob assassins that have been abusing the BoA sin this nerf hit VERY HARD.

However going against some better teams in TA, I found that at times the spike hit so hard or I would be a millisecond too late and miss the infuse because it hit so fast, as if the nerf never happened. These are experienced sins, using the IAS before black lotus, expose, and running high energy gear, radiants, zealous daggers, etc.

In my experience this is a very good nerf. Before SP and BoA was hit a drunk monkey with 1 leg, half an arm, and three fingers can use SP-BoA and get an easy instant kill. However now that SP is double the cost, noob sins that aren't running the right energy management setups are finding themselves screwed by the combo. Also with hex breaker being able to stop the first hit, if a BoA sin misses with black lotus they are toast with the new requirements.

In short BoA takes more experience to use, its also punished harder if the BoA sin fails due to the new cost and slap on the wrist Blades took. It can still be abused to a great extent, but the bottom line is that its less potent of an instant kill for attack spamming noobs who dont pay attention to important things like extension or energy.

Before the build was unquestionably broken. Now its still powerful but can only be used to its max potential in the hands of people that know what they are doing.

~

I am glad that ANET sees that the metagame was horribly lopsided after the update, and did something about it. SP-BoA, combined with Rtspike, and Neoway really brought me to question the state of the metagame. In fact after the skill balance I quit momentarily because I was upset at the overbuffs and lack of decent fix. Its good to see that problem mechanics are being spotted and isolated to prevent imba skill abuse before the tournament. I think this is a good step in the right direction and is enough to instill my loyalty back to the pvp aspect of the game.

As for ritspike, its still usable. Even after the nerf ive seen some teams hold the altar with some modded version of it. However before the update Lame -ntation spike was absolutely rediculous. Im glad to see this uneeded holding build get the flush, especially since a fortress build like that loaded with railcannons was extremely imba in killcount, which no one really likes too much anyway. Before the nerf you could have the best team in the world and still have a 3/10 chance of beating a rt team in a killcount map due to sheer cheapness and them picking off the weaker team and ghostly's with spikes.

~

Im not sure on how the overall community feels about this but personally I think kill count needs to go. Its extremely punishing towards degen and hex based builds and pretty much puts a fortress spike build on a golden pedestal. Kill count is one of the reasons why BoA and Lame -ntation were so dominant in halls, because of the unwarrented amount of pressure they apply. If diversity is the main goal in HA, kill count is not the way to go.

As for 8v8 im torn on the arguement. Bringing back 8v8 would simply mean the domination of spike teams in HA. During the 8v8 test, bloodspike, obsidian flame spike, and Rspike were already attracting droves of people. To me 8v8 is just asking for an all out sniper war. I can understand ANETS point of view on 8v8. With 8 people someone WILL find a way to abuse a high damage skill for a spike. 8v8 is best reserved for GvG, where killing is just a cog in the whole process of winning and more strategy is involved.

If more constructive goals were applied to HA, 8v8 would be a viable option. However, with killcount and the current HA setup. Theres not really much reason for the team to split, and splitting is what kills spike teams.

If HA had more of an emphasis on things like running flags or defending more than one area of the map at once, you would start to see more diverse builds, like what is seen in GvG. If the whole team is allowed to sick together for the duration of the battle of course you are going to see spike teams. If you want to improve HA and diversity, simply make it harder to camp.

Well, obviously you don't seem to have experience of this build, so I will stop arguing there.

Well said.

No, I've been playing GW the last 4 months. SP wasn't aroun 8 months ago, because there wasn't black spider, BoA, or SP, Because Nightfall wasn't released yet.

And, no, Using zealous daggers with the combo and using spider-TF-Lotus-BoS Is what usually happens to me pre nerf. Post nerf I've been getting Lotus-TF-Spider-BoS.

yay expose defenses still lasts as long as usual, now all the BoAs can use Deaths Charge in place of Shadow Prison, and Shattering Assualt in place of Blades of steel...

woot?

Or perhaps because you know that I am correct and unwilling to admit you're wrong. I mean, honestly, please tell me what the point of having a 33% attack boost for JUST black lotus strike will do for you? The killers in this build are twisting, spider, and blades. Black lotus is just for the energy. Its like saying that using frenzy before you shock is needed. No, you fenzy to get the deep wound followed by the next attack skill to do a huge amount of damage with the effect of the deep wound. Obviously, you don't understand what the important factors are in a melee spike.

The timeline was an exaggeration. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what offhand is used to trigger the attacks, both rely on hexes to be used. Also, using spider second has the added benefit of covering the deep wound from twisting - making the spike much more dangerous.

My input on this is that BoA is a melee spike that you will want hitting as fast as possible. Once the shadow prison is laid down on the target, that starts an internal clock in the mind of the monk healing. The .5 seconds that you waste by NOT using the BoA stance during the black lotus strike is a window of opportunity for a healing monk to spirit bond, rof, or do something to save your target. Shadow prison is a dead giveaway that you WILL spike a target. You would be insane not to use BoA before the whole combo lands, because once your target is SP'ed it's a race between you killing your target and a good monk healing. Why they hell you even want to sacrifice a millisecond of your time? You could fail the kill.

Its SP > BoA > stab > stab > stab > dead.

not

SP > do your laundry, walk the dog, go swimming > BoA > stab > stab > oh damn, spirit bond > not dead.

BoA before the whole combo ftw. Anything else endangers your ability to kill in a high level game. Also black lotus is needed to start the combo. If you waste a split second using it, the monk might have enough time to dehex himself with holy veil. After you hit air, you can be damn sure the wrath of god is coming down on your poor little assassin heiny after that. I wouldn't take the chance. BoA is a build designed to kill as fast as possible. If you decrease the speed at which the chain hits, you are only betraying the nature of the build altogether.

This is the best reason I have heard as to why you would want to trigger BoA ASAP. However, if you are spiking with sins in a build without other hexes, the spike will get caught by a prot spell even if the sin is just using SP. If you are trying to use SP & Exposed on a targer to spike them, then you have already given away the spike by using Expose first.

If you are looking at this from a time standpoint, then energy management is not even a problem, because using exposed defenses takes away from the "surprise" of the spike and you should be using SP without Exposed.

Keep in mind, the whole point of this argument is based upon the fact that people are saying that the SP "nerf" will affect the SP/BoA Sin because it creates energy management problems, when in fact it won't.

Didn't the Rt skills just get a big boost? Already they're taking them down... and even with the boosts the skills are condition-based making it hard to do even some damage. for example

[skill=big]Wielder's Strike[/skill]


without a weapon spell on you do only 63 dmg at max channeling. And that's not counting the the dmg reduction from elemental armors!

and compare that to this

[skill=big]Flare[/skill]

it has 12 seconds less of a recharge and does 5 more dmg. I think thats a little unfair. If thery're gonna change those skills they need to make recharge times shorter and get rid of the conditions like the item, or weapon spell or spirits nearby. Rt's need some "just hit" skills. not conditional "do some minor dmg" skills.

I don't see a problem with wielders strike. With a weapon spell, (which is not hard to come by) it deals 126 damage. Try taking a ritualist with spirit's strength, give him a bow with dual shot, nightmare weapon, and wielder's strike with some points in channeling.

I don't know many eles that can throw two flares at once. Also take into account that flare is a projectile attack. It can be sidestepped. Wielders strike hits you where ever you stand for some decent damage. If flare had the same properties as wielder's strike, it would never leave my bar. Flare spike anyone?

If you are having issues with dealing damage as a ritualist you must be using the wrong builds. There are some sickeningly damage rit builds out there, including the nightmare archer I mentioned, spirit bomb rits, and yes channeling still hurts even with the nerf. Try destructive was glaive and spirit burn, those still hurt.

Ritualists did get a nice boost, but you have to admit Lame -ntation spike was way overpowered. I mean it got to the point where 4/5 teams holding were lamers that just snipe at people during killcount. Channeling should not be blown out of proportion to the point of matching ele damage. I will say this because of the defensive capabilities that ritualist have with their binding rituals. If you overbuff channeling you will only paying the way for a fortress spike team thats going to be pelting you with 200dmg undodgable shocks while hiding in a sea of spirits like shelter, union, displacement, shadowsong, wanderlust... etc.

Well, I know I am correct because, unlike you, I have the experience of this build, and I'm not only making theory. I will never argue on a build I don't know, calling people dumb. Anyway, Lordhelmos already showed you the light, so the problem is solved, it's BoA before Black Lotus. If you use Expose defense, you must have a pool of 33 energy minimum, so care more about your energy than before.

Again, it does change nothing for the typical Random Arena Burst Prison sin, as they hardly take expose defense.

Perhaps you didn't read my response to him, or understand what I meant. I understand after reading it that it may not have been properly stated. Let me refresh for you.

1. We are talking about less than a second difference in time.

2. If you bring expose defenses the target is given away anyways. Anyone with half a brain can call the exposed defenses on a voice com and GG.

3. If you use expose defenses, then, time does not matter because the target is given away; therefore, the time on the spike does not matter, just the potential for killing the target because of monking issues.

4. Therefore, if you use expose, then energy is not a problem, because time is not a problem, and you can easily use BoA AFTER Lotus.

If this is not logical, please tell me where the flaw is.

Or consider your argument PWND.

Other notes:

1. If you just use SP without expose, then energy is not a problem no matter where you use BoA.

2. If you use SP without other hexes in your team's build, then GG, your target is as good as protted, or veiled removed before you get to spike.

3. SP+BoA+Black Line assassins are the easiest melee characters to play in the game, and being proud of the fact that you run one helps me to understand the level of skill you have for this game. Furthermore, this helps me to understand why you may not understand the logic behind my argument.

GG

P.S.

Weren't you the one that suggested bringing flurry if BoA gets nerfed? As well as saying that flail wouldn't work in its place because of adrenaline issues? Obviously, I'm arguing with a pro.

/sarcasm

Why did they nerf Lacerate? I can't find any use for that skills, cos of its long recharge anyway. Plus lots of other Rt skills do more dmg anyway, even before the nerf.

Again, you insist on using BoA after Black Lotus. Expose defense or not, no sin will do that. Time does alway matter in PVP. Again, you're just using theory.

Again, you deform my post: Just where did I say I use this build and I m proud of it ? I ve got the experience of this build, and if you checked my post in this forum, go further and you would have seen that I use a moebius/blossom build since the update. But unlike you, I have experienced this build, and I know what I m saying.

Yes, I suggested Flurry, yes I m was not convinced by Flail. Did I call people dumb by suggesting it?

Another deformation: I don't remember calling myself "pro", but quote me again when I said that. It's another personal attack, and that shows me in fact your logic and argument.
True enough. It's just that I can't stand deformation, insult and personnal attacks when we can argue in a polite way. So I will stop here.

Would you two stop sniping at eachother? Your starting to act like children.

Anyway the Burst sin, when first created by one of my guildies, came out like this

[skill]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill]Open Space[skill]Deadly Paradox[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]

now with that open space you can *gasp* put in Expose Defense!

I've trained with this, I've taught with it, I've killed with it and experimented the frick outta it, and yet I still die from time to time. I know that since the target is given away by that 3/4 casting time monks have a spilt second to start the healing train. But with the build I have with an empty space up top, the origonal, has to first warning so the monks heal midway through the spike. With the recent update it'll be harder to kill with this, but thats the nature of this game. To die, suck it up, analyze, and react with something stronger.

gl to ya all
~Eroth

LMFAO!

You're not even arguing. Your only defense against my logical arguments is that you have played the build before. Guess what, so have I!!!!!

I never posted anywhere that I didn't.

Anyways, what the hell does "Time always matters in PvP" mean?

Please enlighten me.

The only speed burst you need for this build is Twisting/Spider/BoS. Why can't you get it through your thick assassin mentality that those are the only skills that actually create the "spike"?

No, you are dumb for suggesting it. Unless you're a CG ranger, then bring flurry while I don't even worry about protting your target as you spike them. In fact, I'll probably be more busy laughing at you on vent while my team rapes yours.

I guess you didn't notice the "/sarcasm" part of the post? Its people like you that I shouldn't even be arguing with because I know you can't even comprehend what I am writing when I put it right out in the open. God, I'm glad I tried to show that I was being sarcastic there, but I guess reading is FTL.

Yes, please stop posting unless you can come up with a valid reason why you should use BoA before Lotus while using exposed defenses.

The whole "I've ran the build so I know" argument doesn't mean crap. Again, I've run the build too, so where does that leave us?

P.S.

Quit QQing about the personal attack things, If you don't like them, then I suggest you stay away from any online forums. Or learn to argue something effectively so that people actually have to try to offend you.


WTB Res Sig?

the change to wastrel's demise is pointless... your reason is that it was a source of follow-up damage, DUH! That's what it was intended for and that's why we have aftercast. And this skill requires the timing of an interrupt almost... you dont see any interrupts with a cast time of 1s, so why should this have it? That would be like having Overload have a cast tiem of 1s... it would never be seen on any bar ever again.

Luxon vs Kurzick implementation want still attention from devs and actually doing something to them (Jade Quarry and Fort Aspenwood). Devs like play own game but not gonna fix what pretty much needed improving since Factions release.

Kill Count maps/altar maps. Pretty much that alone.

You're right BoA doesn't make much difference in organised PvP, but I don't usually go into HA/GvG so I don't run into those builds. RA/AB is what I usually do.


But this change to Shadow Prison isn't a huge nerf(In organised PvP), because Guess what? In GvG/HA you're going to run into more hexes than just SP.


BoA isn't very needed before Lotus, because Lotus isn't going to strike much faster. (About .17 secs if I did the Guesstimation right...)

And a full 1 secondwon't make a huge difference in GvG/HA because the target will usually be targeted by more than just one assassin, because, well, you want them to die now, so why not focus.

Or, the sin can do a attention draw for the opposing monk, and then you spike a different target.

This makes your post singlehandedly redundant. Time does infact matter, but this shows how much knowledge you actually have.
Bastian is correct, infact it cannot be said better. The attack skills are the spike. Just because the warrior uses Eviscerate on the spike does not mean Frenzy is on the spike. It helps. Experience adds to credibility, but trust me someone would not argue or debate if they have as well. If flurry does infact not reduce damage on skills, it would still not be used. Two reasons, Primarily because of the duration and cooldown, in other words you would most likely need to abuse flurry during non-spiking times to add pressure, which is not a good thing, daggers do little damage as it is. Assasins would be seen using frenzy before this. Flurry is a CG ranger skill, it seems Anet had something along the lines in mind for this skill essentially, I do wish though that Flurry would recieve a time duration buff.

So...because it costs 5 more energy you can counter it more easily? Was this that hard before?

3 out of 4 can be kited away, especialy Beguiling Haze. Caltrops would be the only elite Id bother taking.

Yeah. Well, if it requires more energy, so they drain it faster, wich in turn, they're screwed faster? Or am I wrong?

They could just stick around and hit a couple times with a zealus weapon, or get a crit and zip off. Really, using BLS with shadow prison kinda nulls the cost, and if its taken off they wait around for 20 seconds... imo enough time to recharge 10 energy.

The nerf on Shadow prison really disapointed me... 10e is too much, now you MUST get black lotus strike on the combos so you can get it off... That doesnt change anything for W/A cuz their atks are adrenaline based...
And about BoS... How hard is it to prot before 4 attack skills hit you?

Sure, there is something change for W/A.

Since warriors have 2 pips energy regen, they only have 13 energy for every 20 sec which is the same as shadow prison recharge time.

It was very restrictive for warriors to use other energy based skill, such as sprint.

Also, shadow prison boa sin is still very overpower now. Even though my favorite character is sin, and I love sp boa sin build, I'm sorry that I would like to see it get more nerf in the future cuz of balance.

@eroth, created it? I think not


I like the shadow prison nerf, in HB there's a lot of bad shadow prison sins, so an esurge or two and they can't pull their combo off

the shadow prison nerf doesnt destroy the boa build however it is damn annoying to wait for 25 energy to pull off the spike. (sp 10 + burst 5 + blacklotus 10)

yesterday i was playing and didnt read about the nerf yet and was used to spiking everytime with 20 energy and im like WTF blacklotus isnt coming out

and i used vamp daggers so shit i might have to go zealous now and thats pretty lame

maybe drop burst altogether and go /mo for mending touch, same damage output just slower BUT yea that can spell the difference between a kill and a failed attempt

READ THIS PART ANET:
***what anet should do is PUT IT BACK TO 5 ENERGY AND LOWER THE DURATION SCALE INSTEAD. that way sins and wars need enough deadly points for both black offhands or axe skills to hit. IT IS AN ELITE AND SHOULD BE USEFUL AND POWERFUL. thats why we chose it over dark prison cuz of the cost, cooldown, and slow%***

and all you people saying it should be nerfed more stfu and gtfo

the bos nerf is gay, seeing double 103s pop out was so friggin cool, now its just double 98s -_- heck, they should put it back to 80

You just answered the question why it needed to be nerfed in your idiotic post. When you could pop out double damage in the triple digits in a couple of seconds with such ease, then yes it needed to be nerfed. Cry more about the nerf.

Yeah, but hitting twice with a zealous weapon gives time to remove SP. Which is nicer than it was.

as for the boa before or after bls argument, i think boa before bls is better, there is a noticeable speed difference in the animation and you do want the whole combo to be in ias.

however the difference is just a fraction of a second, if the monk is pressured enough he will fail to save his teammate anyway. yea tf-bss-bos is the spike, but if u can afford it, boa earlier does help

i would do boa after blacklotus if i absolutely HAD to kill a target asap and was just waiting for the energy, so at 20 id go sp-bls-boa-tf-bss-bos. perfectly feasible if for example some1 was overextended or the thumper hammerbashed the monk or the mesmer blacked out the monk and if u didnt spike RIGHT NOW the target would be saved

and no u shouldnt usually target monks all the good ones have hex breaker or shield bash now.. rely on them being too slow or ur teammates f'ing them up good