Ok, I no longer loathe GW2 now.

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anet
Then, when Guild Wars 2 arrives, each of these monuments will correspond to special features your Guild Wars 2 characters can "inherit" from your own legendary past, giving you access to exclusive titles, companions (Heroes and pets), weapons, attire, and miniatures.
This almost definitely means that my FoW armor will carry on, making me feel anger no longer at Anet. My high HA rank (which I haven't actually cared about since 6vs6) will cary over, and my minis! Yay!
Anet DOES love us.

The Great Al

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

ALOA

E/Me

We're not going to be able to transfer minis, how would that even work?

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Al
We're not going to be able to transfer minis, how would that even work?
They said miniatures. They'll make it work, they ARE the dev team, after all . :O

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Pay attention to these specific words:

Quote:
Then, when Guild Wars 2 arrives, each of these monuments will correspond to special features your Guild Wars 2 characters can "inherit" from your own legendary past, giving you access to exclusive titles, companions (Heroes and pets), weapons, attire, and miniatures.
You won't likely be keeping anything you currently have, rather, what you currently have will give you access to new stuff, exclusive, unique stuff, but not the same. So no, you will probably not get to keep your FoW armor, but you may get a cool outfit with little to no armor that says to the world "Hey, my ancestor had FoW armor! Look at me!".

EDIT: Minis will probably be little gifts that represent your "ancestors" titles. PvP titles might give you access to special weapons. But I seriously doubt your new GW2 character is going to be walking around able to flash a wolf and sportin' Obsidian and a mini Titan. No.

Exoudeous

Exoudeous

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Honor Warriors

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Al
We're not going to be able to transfer minis, how would that even work?
nothing that transfers is anything you have now. the hall of monuments is stuff you are unlocking for GW2. so you wouldnt be able to transfer your own mini, but would be able to unlock a new mini for when you get GW2.

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Pay attention to these specific words:



You won't likely be keeping anything you currently have, rather, what you currently have will give you access to new stuff, exclusive, unique stuff, but not the same. So no, you will probably not get to keep your FoW armor, but you may get a cool outfit with little to no armor that says to the world "Hey, my ancestor had FoW armor! Look at me!".

EDIT: Minis will probably be little gifts that represent your "ancestors" titles. PvP titles might give you access to special weapons. But I seriously doubt your new GW2 character is going to be walking around able to flash a wolf and sportin' Obsidian and a mini Titan. No.
That's admittedly a possibility, however it certainly could still be the other way around. Your opinion is far too pessimistic, methinks. I think Anet is willing to reward players who are established in Guild Wars 1 for buying Guild Wars 2. They have already anticipated people like me, who will most likely be unwilling to purchase GW2 if it doesn't give me the proper respect for having played Guild Wars as much as I already have. I will not say that Anet hasn't used strange wording in the past to slip by something that the gamers weren't particularly fond of, but I think it will be too much of a major selling point to go shy on the gifts given to long-time players, especially after all the hype Gaile Gray has been spewing about play investment, and how they want to reward the old-school GW fans. As a matter of fact, you could be correct, but still incorrect in your thinking. They may even have very elaborate FoW armors available to fow owners that surpass and exceed the originals in style and use. The reason for saying "giving you access to exclusive" and using the word "access" specifically may very well be their means of making it fair that you get usable FoW armor, and not just press /bonus to get it as soon as you start a character.

Time will tell, but don't give Anet so little credit so early into the game.

fRag_Doll

fRag_Doll

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

Australia

Prid of Ankh Morpork [Prid]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
You won't likely be keeping anything you currently have, rather, what you currently have will give you access to new stuff, exclusive, unique stuff, but not the same. So no, you will probably not get to keep your FoW armor, but you may get a cool outfit with little to no armor that says to the world "Hey, my ancestor had FoW armor! Look at me!".
That's exactly how it reads to me too.
All these people that are thinking "Yay, I'm going to keep my FOW/minipet/titles!" had better get ready for a disapointment. OK maybe, just maybe, it will turn out that we will unlock replica FOW for our GW2 toons, but I'd bet a Superior Vigor rune that anything we unlock will be cosmetic only.

Hell Raiser

Hell Raiser

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

[PHNX]

Mo/

As I have personally translated most of the descriptions, I believe that you can unluck certain monuments in GW:EN that will unlock exclusive things (such as minipets).

Domino

Domino

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Houston

A/Rt

exclusive items are like the pre-order daggers. Probably uniquely skinned aesthetic items or weapons that you can only get by linking a GW1 account.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Sorry, don't mean disrespect by piecing your reply apart, but it helps to explain my PoV better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
That's admittedly a possibility, however it certainly could still be the other way around. Your opinion is far too pessimistic, methinks.
To be honest, I'd much rather it be this way, to keep everyone on an even playing field at the start of a new game. So, in a way, I'm being optimistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
I think Anet is willing to reward players who are established in Guild Wars 1 for buying Guild Wars 2. They have already anticipated people like me, who will most likely be unwilling to purchase GW2 if it doesn't give me the proper respect for having played Guild Wars as much as I already have.
Proper respect is really a subjective thing. What you think is proper and "good enough" others won't. I, personally think it's "good enough", you obviously don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
I will not say that Anet hasn't used strange wording in the past to slip by something that the gamers weren't particularly fond of, but I think it will be too much of a major selling point to go shy on the gifts given to long-time players, especially after all the hype Gaile Gray has been spewing about play investment, and how they want to reward the old-school GW fans.
Again, it is a reward if it's similar to how I stated it. I think it's perfectly fine getting a bunch of stuff to show off what your new character's ancestors have accomplished, without "overdoing" it and giving veterans huge head starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
As a matter of fact, you could be correct, but still incorrect in your thinking. They may even have very elaborate FoW armors available to fow owners that surpass and exceed the originals in style and use.
No way. Style, maybe, strictly cosmetic is okay with me. Use? Like what, better armor? More features? Just, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
The reason for saying "giving you access to exclusive" and using the word "access" specifically may very well be their means of making it fair that you get usable FoW armor, and not just press /bonus to get it as soon as you start a character.
I have a feeling it will require a quest or two, anyway, and perhaps even access to the Hall of Monuments later on in the game. That's possible, and I have no problems with it. But as far as you getting FoW armor just because your GW1 character had it, I seriously, seriously doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
Time will tell, but don't give Anet so little credit so early into the game.
I think it is you giving them too little credit. Everyone starting GW2 at ZERO is IMO a much, much better idea than "Hey, I still gots all my stuffs!"

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

What we have here is another case of gamer's ego where an overly obsessed gamer demands satisfaction for an achievement or ingame item that gamer spent days and days with it's butt stuck in a chair stalking it's prize. It's main diet consists of grind in videogames because grind is easy and time consuming but this gamer has plenty of time to stalk it's prey.

Ego gamers are easily recognized by it's round body and pale skin. Approach with caution as they are scared of human interaction!

FelixCarter

FelixCarter

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Mo/Me

I'm actually extreamily curious what ANet has planned for this thing. Will it be a "one time" switch from GW1 to GW2? Or is it constantly updated, while you continue to play GW1?

Actually, I kinda just want to know what it is first before I start asking such questions. >.<

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Sorry, don't mean disrespect by piecing your reply apart, but it helps to explain my PoV better.
I hardly felt like you were doing it for anything more than just explaining your point of view, as I did mine.

Quote:
To be honest, I'd much rather it be this way, to keep everyone on an even playing field at the start of a new game. So, in a way, I'm being optimistic.
Guild Wars has proven that things can be uneven, and still be balanced. I have put more time into the game, and I therefore have more than someone who just starts. Be it a new game or not, it is still within a series, and the fact that they have a hall of monuments at ALL proves my perspective is being taken into account, at the very least.

Quote:
Proper respect is really a subjective thing. What you think is proper and "good enough" others won't. I, personally think it's "good enough", you obviously don't.
It's not only about respect. Something noting that I had FoW armor, or rank 12 during GW1 is certainly "good enough" in terms of respect, but other things, like the time I have put in to a game which has more or less been cancelled, are a different matter entirely.

Quote:
Again, it is a reward if it's similar to how I stated it. I think it's perfectly fine getting a bunch of stuff to show off what your new character's ancestors have accomplished, without "overdoing" it and giving veterans huge head starts.
I said something about how these things may be "unlockables" rather than out-the-door gifts. That I can deal with, as long as I do, in fact, get them.

Quote:
No way. Style, maybe, strictly cosmetic is okay with me. Use? Like what, better armor? More features? Just, no.
Eh, what I meant was that it would be better than the armor you get at start, though you wouldn't get it until it was reasonable to have:
Quote:
but you may get a cool outfit with little to no armor that says to the world "Hey, my ancestor had FoW armor! Look at me!".
I think, and hope, that it will be more than this. So on this I agree with you, I don't want it to give me an advantage, persay, other than cosmetic awesomeness.

Quote:
I have a feeling it will require a quest or two, anyway, and perhaps even access to the Hall of Monuments later on in the game. That's possible, and I have no problems with it. But as far as you getting FoW armor just because your GW1 character had it, I seriously, seriously doubt it.
I don't see why not. It would be proper payment for the people who committed to Guild Wars as a twice-a-year investment in which our characters would continue to grow throughout various continuing chapters. People who played GW1 as long as I have don't want to just "start again". I spent months acquiring everything I needed for FoW armor. I consider that one of my major investments in the game, along with my titles. Minipets... eh... I could really care less... :s

Quote:
I think it is you giving them too little credit. Everyone starting GW2 at ZERO is IMO a much, much better idea than "Hey, I still gots all my stuffs!"
I didn't necessarily disagree with this. I don't actually want to turn on the game and just be like: OMG MY VICTO'S BATTLE AXE WAHOO LOL. I'm willing to earn it, as long as the investment of time isn't anywhere near what I already had to go through to get them.

It's a good debate, me being the long-time gamer wanting to see continuity of play throughout my Guild Wars gaming experience, and you wanting a clean slate. I think Anet will satisfy both to some extent, but my opinion and wants are [obviously] preferable to me.

red13xx

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

Lol transfer fow armor hahaha that is one hilarious misconception. all they mean is hats that is all. Just useless stuff like mini and hats so people will flood there inventory with crap once again.

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

Sigh, I hate getting into these arguments about whether or not the Hall of Monuments transfers items....


Anyway, even if anything can be transfered (which I highly doubt..), I'd say armor won't be one of those things. I just can't see them remodeling every armor skin, for every profession, from every campaign to fit every race. In response to this people have stated that perhaps they will transfer for only human characters. I just can't see Anet doing that to us, someone wanted to make a charr warrior but their fow armor only fits humans so he abandons his charr dreams- it's just much more logical to unlock all new exclusive gear than transferring old stuff.

Yichi

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
They said miniatures. They'll make it work, they ARE the dev team, after all . :O
think back on reconnects, observer mode, and the better trading system. enough said.

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
This almost definitely means that my FoW armor will carry on, making me feel anger no longer at Anet. My high HA rank (which I haven't actually cared about since 6vs6) will cary over, and my minis! Yay!
Anet DOES love us.
I just remembered, on the topic of rank:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Quote:
Originally Posted by master_of_puppets
yeah um this is random and i only read the first post (not gonna read 1.6k+ posts) so this may have been answered but is stuff like fame gonna be transferable to gw 2
It hasn't been answered, actually. The question hasn't even been asked, or the issue addressed. That's pretty concerning, since people people cherish their fame the same way people cherish their armors and titles. If you weren't allowed your fame...how's that fair for the PvP crowd?
Because everyone will be on a level playing field? How is that unfair?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=1683

Might not see that transferring either

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
I just remembered, on the topic of rank:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=1683

Might no see that transferring either
I knew "fame" in any general sense wouldn't transfer, but rather you'd have a title.

Worse comes to worse if Anet bones me I'll just sell my GW1 account off for a few hundred dollers just to spite them. If they wont make my old account useful [to my standards and specifications], what do I need it for?

Exoudeous

Exoudeous

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Honor Warriors

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmerman
nothing you have now transfers over, the only things that transfer are what you unlock in GWEN, and nothing else. no Fissure, no HA ranks, NOTHING

TGgold

TGgold

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Flying Gophers

Rt/P

I'm wondering how minipets will effect transfers....

I can honestly see them transferring in full. Sure, they'll ahve to redo the models for the new game, but there aren't *that* many pets out there...

As for items/armor/etc, I doubt they'll transfer. I can see stuff like "Having Protector of XXX" unlocks a missions with a special reward. Having "Master Cartogropher" unlocks maybe a new item (such as maps) for regions. Things like this is what will happen methinks.

Lonesamurai

Lonesamurai

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Cheltenham, Glos, UK

Wolf Pack Samurai [WPS]

R/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exoudeous
nothing you have now transfers over, the only things that transfer are what you unlock in GWEN, and nothing else. no Fissure, no HA ranks, NOTHING
thats not what I've heard, read, or been told... Now please link where it exactly says that so i can broadcast that information please

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Instead of jumping to instant conclusions why dont people wait for some solid information from Anet on Guild Wars 2.

In PC Gamer it states you may be able to put weapons into display cases and then your GW2 characters take them out. Then we have another article that puts it in a way that we unlock exclusive things through our HoM. I understand why so many people are getting confused at this HoM. I would love for Anet to go into further detail about the HoMs features.

I also love how so many say "Omg theres no point to playing GW1 anymore because its all going to be useless". I forgot fun was no longer what people play games for.

Aegos

Aegos

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2007

Southern France (American from San Diego Though)

Droknars Arena Dogs [DAD]

E/

You'll just be able to "unclock" items like in a collectors account...

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner
In PC Gamer it states you may be able to put weapons into display cases and then your GW2 characters take them out.
What it actually says is "special weapons you earned in GW1 may be in a display case for you to take out and use". Special weapons you earned as in acquired by completing quests in Eye of the North, or acquired by earning a title. It doesn't say stick any ol' weapon in a box and it'll magically show up in GW2.


And Gaile is used to talking to the community
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
The Hall of Monuments, available through Guild Wars: Eye of the North, will provide access to unique companions, equipment, miniatures, titles, etc. that can’t be obtained any other way in GW2.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10133173
If she meant that it allows you to transfer items, she would've just come out and said that instead of "provides access to unique...". Also considering the unrest it would quell amongst the playerbase, if that were the case I'd say she'd have even more reason to just come out and say it.



I suppose there is a slim chance a few minor things could be transferable, but it's gravely outweighed by evidence to the contrary.

Aera

Aera

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Galactic President Superstar Mc [awsm]

E/

I don't really care about items. We'll be getting a lot more new items anyway But I do care about the PvP stuff. Like I've wasted hours on my rank 9, gladiator 6 and champion titles. Rather spent, not wasted. I'd really like account-based titles to be transferred.

But if there's not going to be anything similar ( which I HIGHLY doubt ) to HA, TA and GvG in GW2, I'd understand if it's not going to be transferable.

Unlike Mesmerman, I would still DEFINITELY buy GW2, regardless of titles/items. Of course you have the feeling you wasted lots of time. But hey, GW2 is gonna kick ass!!

I Will Heal You Ally

I Will Heal You Ally

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

In my HoM

Canthan Refugees [TOGO]

E/Rt

From Official Guild Wars Wiki

The Hall of Monuments is to be introduced in Guild Wars Eye of the North to allow players to transfer some information from their original Guild Wars campaign account into a Guild Wars 2 account.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hall_of_Monuments

So instead of attacking each other just WAIT!

Arduin

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

You'd better stick with loathing GW2, you really are. What's the use of transferring FoW-armor, when every armor in the game will be new? No people will recognize the fact that you are wearing FoW-armor. Plus, your FoW-armor is earned by characters who are already dead (died 100 years ago), so I wouldn't even want to wear it.

On a side note, info in game-mags (PC Gameplay, Netherlands) tells me that Anet is thinking of decoupling the armor from professions. So you will get light-medium-heavy armor or whatever. Don't know how this is gonna work out for the different races though.

Either way, get ready for some dissapointments, Mesmerman.

Prefectus

Prefectus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

New Jeresy

R/

would be happy with a mini me in my FoW that could be a nice comp if they will not alow us to wear the armor it self

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
What it actually says is "special weapons you earned in GW1 may be in a display case for you to take out and use". Special weapons you earned as in acquired by completing quests in Eye of the North, or acquired by earning a title. It doesn't say stick any ol' weapon in a box and it'll magically show up in GW2.


And Gaile is used to talking to the community

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10133173
If she meant that it allows you to transfer items, she would've just come out and said that instead of "provides access to unique...". Also considering the unrest it would quell amongst the playerbase, if that were the case I'd say she'd have even more reason to just come out and say it.
Its funny. After i posted that i knew i would get a reply from you on that exact line telling me how i am wrong

I did not post that to instantly say "Oh you are all wrong every weapon will be transferable". I was simply posting it to say maybe thats were people are getting confused. I do not really know why in a new game with new races,weapons and armor, people want their original armor and weapons.

Also when i said i would love for Anet to go into more detail i mean a page explaining it. I know Gaile has been answering questions on it throughout the forums but it would be nice for that info to be put together and broken down. Still since GW2 is in early development i know this will not happen for sometime.

Kakumei

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

I love people who whine about character transfer.

Go on. Name me a game that's done it. Ever.

Peter Panic

Peter Panic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

ct

Scars Meadows [SMS]

W/

idk if this is the right place to post this, but i have a few questions about GW2, NOT GW:EN. there has been a lot of talk about introducing jumping into GW1, and the main reson they didnt do it is because the ywould have to go back and take out all the imaginary walls, well since they are making a whole new map and a whole new terrain, do u think its possible that they would introduce a jumping feature into GW2?

Exoudeous

Exoudeous

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Honor Warriors

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Panic
idk if this is the right place to post this, but i have a few questions about GW2, NOT GW:EN. there has been a lot of talk about introducing jumping into GW1, and the main reson they didnt do it is because the ywould have to go back and take out all the imaginary walls, well since they are making a whole new map and a whole new terrain, do u think its possible that they would introduce a jumping feature into GW2?
please read the articles that have been posted, they say that there will be jumping and swimming, and that the whole terrain engine will be new so that you can interact with it better. which i guess means climb it and so forth

darktyco

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

lol where did you get that picture?

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

The words are too vague. Don't get too wrapped into them.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

JEFF STRAIN INTERVIEW

Quote:
so you've probably heard us talking about the Hall of Monuments, which kind of documents all the cool stuff you've done and things you've acquired. That'll be where your character is memorialized, so that when you play Guild Wars 2, you can choose to inherit the legacy from any of your characters
clear that you can *inherit* specific things?

minipets were specificall mentioned
in the article along with other items and you WILL get to use those items as the article specifically says.

quote tha article and what is confusing or unclear about this?

Quote:
for example, special weapons you earned in GW1 may be in a display case in your hall of monuments, and your GW2 character will be able to take them out and use them.

Mesmerman

Mesmerman

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Penis]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakumei
I love people who whine about character transfer.

Go on. Name me a game that's done it. Ever.
I use to transfer DnD characters from v1 to v1.5 to v2 and so on.

Arduin

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

for example, special weapons you earned in GW1 may be in a display case in your hall of monuments, and your GW2 character will be able to take them out and use them.

Tell me, what's a special weapon?

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Later articles have made it more clear that you can get bonus weapons for your achievements.

As for GW2, I'll put in on the wait and see list. It's up to Anet to make a very good game, not for me to blindly buy it.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

JEFF STRAIN drom a different interview.
Quote:
So the team started creating a wishlist of all of the things they'd love to see added to Guild Wars and when they were done they realized it was too much to stuff into the existing game.
Instead it was a master plan for how to build the "ultimate Guild Wars game," Strain said.
But the plan required something to transition current players from the original campaigns into the new experience and, in many ways, that's where Eye of the North comes in.
Most central to that idea is the Eye's Hall of Monuments.
In the hall you can store achievements that can then be transferred to a Guild Wars 2 account.
This hall will be located in a sort of base of operations you can establish in Eye of the North. The instanced base will allow you to store not only the Eye of the North achievements in the form of monuments but the achievements earned in all three campaigns.
Every monument earned will unlock something, from heroes and pets to weapons, clothes and miniatures, in Guild Wars 2.
When you create your character in Guild Wars 2 you can choose a character from Guild War to inherit these unlocks from.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

" love people who whine about character transfer.

Go on. Name me a game that's done it. Ever."

K.

Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc...