[Dev Update] Skill Balances for Early April

The Soul Reaping nerf was a little rough. I agree with alot of the people with the suggestion of gain 0 energy from spirits. Thats where most of the PvP necros are being misused. Or as someone suggested maybe make it 2 seconds instead of 5 or something. I notice I HUGE difference when I play my necro in aspenwood. I find myself running out of energy and dying alot now.

*yawns* Mmkay.

Read what I wrote:

Now read what you wrote:

Now....lets see if your reply makes any sense to what i said?

Lets see.... "Good plan"? where in my whole post did i mention any sort of plan for nerfing.............Anyone care to read?

Lets read it again shall we. Done reading?

Nope...no mentions for nerfing. I dont really know how you got off on that tangent...

Hmn nerf the basic triple-profession build of tank-nuker-monk ? Hmn...Did my post even mention anything about nerfing?

I will apologize that I didn't differentiate between a team-build (which is what PvP nerfs are mostly based on) and a solo-build (which is what most PvE nerfs are based on).

My memory is poor. Will someone remind me of a PvE nerf that was based on a team build? I really can't think of one. The only real nerfs are against solo builds that is pve-based that really comes to my mind, ie: the original Invincimonk build (pre-nerf Prot Bond). I guess the spirit bond nerf is one too, but that was both a farming and a pvp nerf (imo).

The post i replied to that tomcruisejr posted was that basically "theres no overpowered builds in PvE, only good farming skills."

with my reply basically being "farming skills can be overpowered, especially if it allows you to tank end-game enemies with zero effort."

I think Anet's philosophy towards farming is that....Farming is ok, as long as it takes some effort and isn't so....fast.

I see their nerfs to farming not as skill balances, but rather they prefer changing the bad guy behaviors such as with the AOE nerf, adding new monsters, changing monsters and skills around etc.

=============

As for soul reaping...i think Anet doesn't wanna kill Spiritway build, as make it less powerful.

let's make all professions only different in look and have exact same set of skills. The game would be top balanced and the PVP will never complain.

Seriously each primary attribute makes the profession unique whether it gives extra healing per cast, more energy pool or faster energy recharge (necro). Therefore, there always be some imbalanced be it PVE or PVP as long as each profession has its unique ability. There always will be some dominant builds and if the nerfing is the only solution to the imbalance of the game, there will be no different playing a Monk or a Warrior.

They may have 5-6 necros but the only ones that are able to spam all skills are the necros in a spirtway group pretty much. Not saying thats the ONLY way but 9 times out of 10 it is. So just nerf spiritway and be done with it. Meaning make it to where necros dont gain ANY energy from spirits. Or half energy from spirits every 5 seconds but full energy no time constraint from non spirits. Same with pets make them half every 5. That will solve the problem right there. If the other team dies and necros get alot of energy from that then thats the other teams fault for dying now isnt it?

Sigh,

First, an adjustment to soul reaping doesn't mean your necro is go to be running around with power attack. How you think toning down soul reaping erodes the differences between classes is beyond me. There doesn't have to be imbalanced PvP given unique class abilities. One can adjust said abilities so that they function but are not broken. This is what is being done.

Improper skill adjustments have a much greater negative effect on PvP environments than adjusting these skills does on PvE environments. In general, this change won't stop You or Olias from Raising minions when you need to. But of course I don't know why I even say this since this debate will rage on for all eternity. I play both sides of the game, PvP and PvE, seriously and there has never been a case of a skill change for PvP purposes that has negatively effected by PvE experience in any significant way.

What's with the Soul Reaping nerf? It makes absolutely no sense. IT was working fine in PvE. This seems to -only- affect PvE in reality. It's not going to matter a lot for PvP. What needs to be fixed is the retarded situation of Ritualists and Monks being replaced by Necromancer primaries because of the Spirits/Soul Reaping synergy. Just remove all energy gain from Spirits. Spiritway needs to die.

That's what I thought, but I hate making assumptions about PvP, since I don't do it much.

I agree with this completely.

Change SR back or limit ur changes to pvp.

Sr is not a skill balance, its not a nerf to a known solo farm build, it is not an AI change to combat abuse. IT IS A COMPLETE NERFAGE OF A PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE LINE. It was never done before and should not stick, how would u feel if next they nerf expertise, or devine favor, or strength? This nerf is utter bs and should not be allowed to remain.

Strength: Every rank gives an additional 1% armor penetration on attack skills and increases the effectiveness of Strength-based skills.
1. Nerfing this would suck? I doubt it.
2. Expertise should be nerfed to the extent that it only works on Ranger skills.
3. Soul Reaping is still the best at energy management.

After testing myself in PvE, since that's all that I play personally, I now agree with those who think the Soul Reaping nerf is a bit much.

I dunno much about PvP other than I avoid it because of these flavor of the month lame builds, and it sounds to me from what Im hearing that another one popped up, gave Soul Reaping a bad name, and got it nerfed to affect even the people who used it in a balanced way.

Let's just stop right here as there is as much point in ranting about SR getting nerfed, as there is in taking a blind man to see a silent film. I'm certainly no fan of SR being nerfed, but screw it!Ranting has never done any of us any good in 2 years since GW has been active...It didn't help with the first AoE nerf...There was even a petition, wich I signed along with alot of other people. Did it help?No.I'm sure not many people were happy when they made a minion limit and im pretty sure alot of people protested against it. DId that make A.Net change their minds?No.
Are you beggining to see a pattern here?Well I certainly am and I'm pretty sure that complaining about RS getting nerfed is, sadly, not going to help our predicament...
OK, the update sucks elephant testicles, we should just try to overcome it. Period

Well maybe if Anet sees our suggestion about No energy from spirits or minions not under your control, they will decide to give it a try. After all, they said to expect many changes this week.

Honestly guys. I'm a PvP'er who just recently quit GvG and HA to play PvE more, because I don't have time or dedication to compete on a high level in this game anymore, but enough about me....

The nerf to SR was needed, even in both facets of the game (pvp and pve). It made it wayyyy too easy to make builds centering around minions and CREATURES dying for MASS AMOUNTS of free energy. (hence the jagged bones complaints before). Its SOOOO mindless in PvE to just be a MM or have your hero be an MM (be honest most of you complainers can't micro as well as your hero does) and just roll through everything because you have infinite energy to work with, you have no worries.

Getting to the point...

I played MM yesterday, extensivley in PvE and played a Necspike in HA to test the after effects to SR's nerf.
I experienced little to no change in how I play, because I commonly learned in pvp and high level pve that you have to manage your energy better. You are complaining because its not mindless-autopilot stuff anymore, this is pathetic, really it is.

What CAN'T you do now that SR is one gain every 5 secs???? I maintained 9 minions in every mission I partook, I used jagged bones and signet of lost souls to manage my stuff.

Ever think about adding Signet of Lost Souls to your bar? Ever think about constructing a team around you so you don't need near infinite energy to spam skills? Ever learn to keep your minions alive better by micro managing minor heals on each?

No, you haven't. But you should.

My PvE farming and questing hasn't changed one bit, and I played Necro all night last night.

Listen, before you go on another ignorant tyraid without checking YOURSELF first and THINKING about how you can work around it, just chill and use your brains, I'm sure you can make minor changes to benefit yourself.
If for some reason you don't believe me, message me in game and I will show you how to manage a necro better.

thx

IGN- acct1- Wretched Soliloquy, acct2- Venomous Anyi

To be realistic in a fantasy setting... minions should not provide energy to soul reaping. They have no souls. Spirits are entrapped souls and should provide fractional energy... 1/2 effect as has been posted.

Personally I don't really care... I don't play necros. But this makes sense to me.

Erm first of all, at the least minions should provide 1/2 the energy gain, even though the full ammount never caused anyone suffering...And second Spirits DO give 1/2 the ammount and most suggestions have been to nulify that effect instead, wich certainly gets my vote.

I'm aware of spirits giving half already and minions giving and all that. However, I'm just saying that something with no soul shouldn't trigger soul-reaping. It's illogical for soul reaping to trigger on minions.

Lol, let's stop on the subject of logic then, shall we?Their explenation for the way creatures now react to AoE damage was "To make their behaviour more realistic". Now why the hell should a fantasy game need to be realistic?Is that what you would call logical?And how about ghosts that get killed?Does it sound logical to you that a ghost can die?I mean c'mon he's a freakin ghost!He's already dead!And transparent!Why should he need to die again?Why can't they just leave those poor dead souls rest?

They don't get killed... they get banished. Yeah, that's it.

I just find it odd that minions, which have no souls, trigger soul reaping. That's all. It's just never felt right.

I have mixed feelings about this update, about the nerfs and the Buffs. Yes I do know something needed to be done about SR, but alot of players will be working around/adapted to this in the next few hours. I think that pattern of releasing Team build based nerfs along side skill buffs make it really hard to see if the nerf was really effective. The skill synergy of many of the nerfed skills were keeping melee in check. (Yes, I know I will be flamed for what I'm about to say.) For example...
Yes, these skills were nerfed to shift the meta and open up viable options for other skill slots, but why nerf dmg mitigation and e-management when raw dmg has been steadily increasing? The cummaltive effects of these nerfs have yet to be seen. Skills like those were holding back alot of melee based "gimmick" builds.

For the failure Hexes, they were only trully overpowered in Hex overload teams. I think a 20 sec recharge is a bit too much for those spells.Yeah, I know it's only a 25% chance to miss, but it did help alot.
15 nrg for Reckless Haste, I'm fine with that. You just have to cast it at more opportune times.
Dropping ZB to 7 nrg return. I'm also fine with that. I don't believe spells should be free, no matter what hoops you have to jump through.

GoLE that scales with E-storage. The functionality is still the same. You won't see too many HB healer's spamming heal Party as much anymore, I definetly don't think a 120+ party wide heal should cost 5 nrg anyway.

These skills were a way to deal with all those Grenth Dervs and make those axe and Hammer wars have to wait for an opening, giving casters the time they needed to keep up with the DPS from melee classes.
My main Problem lies with how the big picture is affected. Player's will always be searching for the most broken skill combinations. Why would anyone want to play a build that is sub-par, especially when there is money on the line.(GvG tournaments) It is the mentality to abuse whatever you have at your disposal for the purpose of winning. There is nothing wrong with this, everyone likes to win. You create a build that exploits a certain set of skill synergies, sometimes they are very obvious other times they happen by accident.

Exploiting skills is becomming easier and easier to accomplish, each nerf to dominating builds is accompanied by the Over-buffing of under used skills. Some of these skills are literally screaming "OMG please I'm just waiting to be broken now!" (see the new Conjure's, warmonger/Brutal Wep, and soon to be Crip slash,Grenth Grasp,and Ava Lyssa)
After a nerf, players will natuarlly be looking to try new skills, they don't need much help picking new ones. Some skill builds evolve through time others evolve through pushing unused skills on players through over-buffs.

On the comment about the Nerf to ZB would make other monk elites look better. I think ZB would have faded out of the picture anyway. If this skill balance stays for good, ZB would have definetly taken a back seat to RC. With all the melee boosts, and the new spamable cripples and reworking of pestilence. RC would have naturally found a place in the meta.

Another problem that will soon be apparant is the new pet commands. How could the Devs not see the skill synergy with spells like Well of Profane and Brutal Wep/Warmonger Spikes. With the indirect and direct boost to melee chars, skills like RaO will be even more broken without something to keep them in check. As I see it, these new pet commands will allow some of the better teams to perfectly position a game breaking well of profane and Spike through and protect with Weapon spells. With e-management getting weaker as a whole, most melee based teams can just wait out casters, espiacially since melee atks are as un-mitigated as ever now.

So what will you do then A-net, will you throw out another Nerf/Buff combo?
I know that skill balancing is a very tedious process and it is very stressful trying to redo them every month, but please if your going to nerf builds focus in on them one at a time. Don't create more problems by making underused skills broken.

I will be able to adapt to this update, but please be prepared for the next x-way that you caused by over-buffing skills. Then again, maybe you are already prepared and this is all some kind of master plan for the meta.

Ohh well, GJ on the other parts of the update though.

Any creative work should establish its own realm of logic and stick to it. Arguing that realism or logic don't mesh within fantasy simply doesn't work. So long as fantasy obeys its own rules, it's logical and realistic.

As far as the actual changes go, I largely enjoy them (yes, even SR). I would like to see some better tweaks to Paragons though.

guys.... the nerf to soul reaping is NOT game breaking....

Honestly... soul reaping was (and probably still is) the single best primary attribute. Look at what some other classes get (fast casting, strength, spawning power) and quit your bitching.


However, the mesmer nerfs still pain me deeply, mistrust, guilt and shame which I used VERY often in PvE are now broken... nearly completely. The nerf on spirit of failure just nerfed my e-management for farming. Yeah, I actually have to bring a skill for e-mangement... necros can just sit there.

They even lowered minion costs to compensate... so I really don't see what the problem is.

That is an even worse idea than 5 second downtime on SR. with how often minions and enemies die, the necro would never be able to cast spells mid-battle

yes.. but necros have to invest a buncha attribute points into soul reaping to get the energy. And may I remind you that soul reaping only has like 5 skills attributed to it, 3 of which are elite and the other two are signets that require certain conditions to be met. So yes, a mesmer has to take a skill for energy management, but that skill can be in an attribute that you will have points in anyway, whereas a necro has to take attribute points for energy management in an attribute they likely don't need for any other purpose. And now that the attribute can only activate once every 5 seconds... the only TIMED attribute... well, you can see where I am going.
Really, whose idea was this? Why didn't you devs just make it so you gain no benefit from spirits? you made this change because of pvp, and pve players dont tend to rely on spirits for soul reaping. So by just removing the benefit from spirits, you could sufficiently "fix" pvp while leaving the pve group alone.
If you insist on keeping this update, give us more soul reaping skills to make it a more useful attribute again. And give them in a FREE update, because I bet your sharp business minds are thinking of including it as a feature of GW:EotN.

The nerf to SR only seems so terrible because it was so overpowered to begin with. All along, elems with their 'energy management' line, still need 1-2 energy spells in their skillbar, where SR basically took care of everythnig.

i hate conjures now..

+10 dmg with no investment in the attribute
ridiculous

Brutal weapon could be over powered +25.... thats almost as strong as assassin lead and offhand, if sins are spikers why can a monk just put this on when his team gets wiped and kill things -_-.

AVatar of Lyssa isn't broken it has 2 big +'s but a conditional affect that kinda balances it.

Must hit ppl activating skills, with so much 1/4 skills -_- uh..dam annoying. Isn't grenth dead now anyways?

And reckless +failure all that stuff, I still think there over powered, theres anti and then theres just.....overkill.

A simple blind can ruin a large amount of melee, but this hexes, Most melee DOES NOT have hex removal, and even by getting a secondary the hex removal there isn't good enough for them.

Assassin power is already conditional enough, must hit in sequence, make sure your not blind, empathied,blocked, e-denialed -spoil victored....but those hexes weren't something u could go through -_-.

"necros relying on SR for energy management."

Well ... umm ... because that's how anet made us.

As has been pointed out, SR is a Primary Attribute, *not* a skill.

To all the Ws telling us to just eat it up and enjoy it - let's say they did the same thing to your PA, Strength. Every point of Str gives 1% Armor Penetration, so you have 11 Str you have 11%AP, always. Add a 5 sec timer to that so you get that AP only every 3rd-6th blow (depending on your weapon speed). You'd all be screaming bloody murder.

Same with Rangers and Expertise - 40% reduction in E cost at lvl 10, suppose that only kicked in every 5 secs?

Or Mes with FC, can only FC a spell every 5 secs. (Oops, maybe I shouldn't give them an idea on how to further nerf those poor Mes, sry.)

How about we put the E return on Elemental Attunement & Fire/Water/Earth/Air Attunement on a 5 sec timer - ele's might appreciate that, don't you think?

As has also been pointed out, not all of us necros play MMs.

Picture this: a mob of 3 Beast-sworn Hecket and 3 pet elder crocodiles coming around a corner (so they're all in a compact bunch), after having cast Awaken the Blood (10E), I cast SS (15E), Mark of Pain (10E) & Suffering (15E), the whole mob goes down in 4-6 secs and I get a single 11E return on my 50E investment.

Someone commented that us SS necs tend to concentrate on 1 target(!?!), so the change shouldn't affect us too much - lol, as you can see from that example, even concentraing on 1 target has used up most my 60-65E, even if it did bring down 6 enemies. But, sry, my job is to hit as many enemies as poss with as many degens as poss, in the shortest amt of time. This nerf is a disaster.

I won't address the PvP/PvE dabate - of those 2793 hrs, maybe 30 has gone into PvP, so I don't have the knowledge or exp to know if SR has been abused there. But from talking with other players over time, I would tend to agree that the bulk of anet's income does come from us PvE'ers - we're the ones with the extra accts/char slots, not the PvP'ers. But if it's a prob in PvP, then fix PvP, don't nerf PvE to make up for it.

And, ya, I've often thought that us necs are over-powered but, hey, maybe I *like* being over-powered. I finally got the bonus on THK the other night with my SS nec (1st time to get that bonus). During a lull in the fighting, someone said "this is going well" and the leader said "well, thank <yours truly>, he's doing most of the dmg ... no, he's doing pretty much all the dmg". Nice to be recognized by your fellow players.

I think this is maybe anet's way of telling me that I'm spending an excessive and possibly unhealthy amount of time (2793 hrs/20 mos = ~4 hrs @ day) playing their game, and that's it's time to move on to something else. Or that I've spent too much money on their games (2 regular Proph, 1 reg/1 CE Fact, 2 CE NF, 4 extra char slots) already, and they'd just as soon forego the sale of 2 CE GW:ENs if that would enhance my financial well-being. Too bad, cause I was really stoked about GW:EN, but it's for my own good, I guess.

OK I think this thread well and truly supports separating the way PvP and PvE skills work. There is soooo much argument between the two sides and both seem to think they're right and in some respects both are.

There will always be people that prefer pvp and always some that prefer pve and ne'er the twain shall meet it seems here o_O

I hate the SR nerf in pve, but I could live with it if they reduced bone fiend spell cost to 15. At 25 it takes half a necro's energy nearly just for one spell. SR was there to counter the high costs - reduce SR you should reduce all the costs not just those of horrors.

As has been stated SR is an attribute not a skill, not a build. For two years it has been fine and now they nerf it because of a glitch in pvp. Attributes should not be nerfed there should be another pvp workround.

That said, I'm of the view they should separate the skills, if they need nerfing in pvp then don't nerf them in pve and vice versa. get the skills working the best way for each game. PvP and PvE are different, they require different things. Limiting PvE players to skills balance for PvP is ultimately going to cripple the PvE experience to the point where people will not want to play it.

If that's what Anet want then fine, theyr'e nearly there - keep going.

If not they should listen to their players and come up with a workable solution for both sides.

That's just a dumb example.

Strength is a passive PA. SR isn't. Besides Strength is already limited to attack skills only already. So yes it's ALREADY pretty much only every "3rd-6th blow" I wish SOME of you people will get your facts straight before arguing...

And now since "we're" using ridiculous examples, how about I say Strength should do 50 damage to all foes whenever something dies? That's more along the lines of what SR does.

SR could have used a different nerf than the way it is now though. This current solution wasnt the best one but neither is it that bad at all.

Since when did SR become an 'active' skill?

Unless I've missed something, Str works the same way SR does:

- for every lvl of Str, you gain 1% AP, so, for example, at lvl 11, every blow you strike has 11% AP

- for every lvl of SR, you gain 1E every time a creature dies, so at lvl 11, you get 11E when something dies

How is this different?

"Besides Strength is already limited to attack skills only already. So yes it's ALREADY pretty much only every "3rd-6th blow" I wish SOME of you people will get your facts straight before arguing..."

- Only the AP bonus Str provides is limited to attack skills, there is a whole host of Str related skills, last time I looked. Is Endure Pain an attack skill?

- Until NF, there have never been any SR related skills.

"And now since "we're" using ridiculous examples, how about I say Strength should do 50 damage to all foes whenever something dies? That's more along the lines of what SR does."

Talking about "ridiculous" examples, to use your words ...

- SR doesn't 'do' dmg, has never 'done' dmg, at least not b4 they added this new sig in NF. How do equate gaining E when a creature dies with somehow damaging that creature - it's already dead. You did the dmg b4 it died, and b4 you gained the SR benefit - it sure wasn't SR that 'caused' the dmg.

BTW, my other main playing char is a W and I've logged more hrs on him than even the necro.

And, just for the record, I think my W is ridiculously over-powered, too. Can we nerf these guys next?

Except for the fact that Strength has a TON of skills linked to it while Soul Reaping has 5... 2 of which are viable to be used in builds.

Most people wont put 10 points in strength without having some strength skills or a shield. People WILL put points in Soul Reaping just for the effect. That's what you forgetting.

I wasnt talking about Skills from Strength at all. I was making a point that your example was just bad. 5 second cycles for Strength is far far different than a 5 second cycle for SR. That's like comparing Critical Attacks and Divine Favor and complaining that you don't get +health for making a critical hit. It's comparing two completely different attributes with different mechanics.

Skills from either attribute have nothing to do with what I'm saying. You made a bad analogy and I called you out on it. That is all.

He didn't make a bad analogy. Putting points in strength gives you both armor penetration AND access to a bunch of skills. Putting point in soul reaping gives you energy at a max speed of once every 5 seconds, and maybe A skill that might be somewhat helpful if the conditional requirements are met.

Problem is this isnt compensating anything. Just because youre a necro doesnt mean you have minions. I use my necro often for Curses so low minion cost doesnt help me at all. I have a pretty low energy cost build yet I still find myself running low on energy now.

Oh god Necros can whine like hell.

Our energy managemtn took a 5 second nerf!

And dude who said 11 energy back for 50 energy, So what? lets compare some stuff

Ritualist
THey dont have an e-management PRIMARY, guess what because soul reaping is a an attribute it will work on its own without u worrying about it.

Ritualists spells cost out the butt chunks.

Dam argument is stupid
I dont have FULL energy instantly after killing a mob anymore -_-.
Meh MM's are Bordering on overpowered and the nerf just changes some skills.

Other Primary's have been nerfed
Look at the Dervish.

Whats more annoying is that in pvp those who werent MM and find energy management problems now.

That means you had someone more than every 5 seconds -_- 11 energy every 1/2 seconds then?
Most classes bring energy management or energy reducers why cant the Necro?

The work around is easy. dont allow energy gain from spirits. Thats what the problem is. Change that problem solved for both PvP AND PvE

oh no! SR doesnt have any good skills in it is your complaint now.... FEEL MY PAIN!!!! FAST CASTING HAS NEVER HAD ANY GOOD SKILLS IN IT!

No one understands this... like ANet does Gaile translate everything into english for the devs? I don't care how imba PvE is, this mod to PvP solves nothing to a great extent. Just make it not work on spirits why are the devs so insistant that it HAS to work on spirits?

My thoughts too Shmanka. All they need is the old SR, no energy from spirits, and 1/4-1/2 from minions.

ORBITUARY

RIP

here lies the the remians of the necromancer class.

after dealing and succeeding on deaths, through soul reaping it has been killed off by its creators.

'book'em danno. murder 1' (famous phrase from hawaii 5 0)