Petition: Soul Reaping

Ok well my main toon is a necro and I play him all the time. I stick to PvE mostly and rarely ever venture into PvP anymore except on a monk. Soul Reaping is the profession specific attribute(PSA) for the necromancer. This like many other PSA's it provide a bonus that only the necromancer gets, Which is Energy when something dies. This comes in handy because alot of necros skills have a hefty cost, most costing around 10-15 energy. Now because of Soul Reaping it helps the necromancer be rewarded for killing an enemy(or multiple enemies). That was the point of Soul REaping.

Now, Arena Net has yet again nerfed something that is completely good for PvE players yet for PvP players it is not. The nerf now makes it so you only get the energy reward every five minutes...What does this do in PvP? Well first it helps stop spirit spammers and other energy costly necro builds...But what does this do to PvE? well it makes killing or helping anything more of a hastle because it will take more time because now instead of using soul reaping(which now is useless) we(necros) must wait on energy regeneration. This is even harder then it sounds becuase lets say a minion master is set up with fiends and a golem....well golems=15 energy and fiends =25 energy....yeah with soul reaping its hard to stay with enough energy to keep your minions at 10.

So Arena Net this is for you, Please either change Soul Reaping back or please do the following.
Make Fast casting slower then it is
Make the heal from Divine Favor less then it is
Make the armor penetration less then it is in Strength
Make energy storage less then it is
Make the saved energy in Expertise less and increase skill value
Make the chance of critical strike less and energy gain from it less
Make the health bonus in Spawning power less then it is
Make the gained energy from leadership less then it is
Make the health and energy gain from Mysticism less then it is.

This request shouldn't sound to rediculous because its the equivilant of what you(anet) did to Soul Reaping.


Thank you in advance because I know you will at least reply because I am a long time costomer of yours...

Do not dare taunt the Gods, or they shall smite you.

Yeah my edit button doesn't work but its not 5 minutes its 5 seconds...yeah sorry for that.

And @ xaleo21 these gods you speak of aren't my gods....I would only worship smart gods that know what they are doing, and know why they are doing it.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=19

So I don't have to repeat myself with lots of words

Honestly though, it's a change that was needed.

Honestly...in PvE...I almost never had problems with minion mastering, I often have toomuch energy in battle, with the change to soulreapin, playing a necro only got harder, not impossible.

Honestly that is a load of crap!!! You talk about as "buldozing" through things...yeah because we all know if we have 10 minions we are unstoppable...*sarcasm*. also you talk about the endless supply of energy...yeah right I wish...energy only comes after a death which means you get low really fast and if nothing dies(which happens) then your stuck waiting to get to 15 energy to cast a spell.


Necros have gotten the blunt of the major nerfs recently, AI nerf which almost killed SS in any form not just farming, the minion cap which stopped alot of minions from being produced, then this with our primary attribute...and its all for the pretty boys over in PvP...but I spent over $150(american) to play this game...making me a costomer and I want to be heard!!! Anet if your going to nerf something for PvP don't screw us PvEers over...

PvP needs to be balanced, PvE does not.

You seem to forget that your enemies in PvE are mindlessly easy to beat. Unless the nerfs ever make it impossible for a certain main mission to be completed out of sheer difficulty ( Wont happen, LoL ) PvE'rs have no right to complain.

The problem is where you were getting energy when something died you are no longer getting that. ie. If three things died you got say 30 energy you are now only getting 10 after 5 seconds. I agree the cost of the other spells need to be reduced to make the necro not play like the poor energy constrained warrior. My main character Vinny is a warrior and I hate the fact that warriors have so little energy. Next thing they will find an excuse to reduce the maximum energy an elementalist has.

Its an unbalanced change, sure it may have been too much the other way but to swing from 100% to 25% is crazy IMHO. Maybe it should be a every 3..1 seconds based on spawning power, or reduce the amount of energy returned, so instead of say 10 reduce to 8, but this is like instead of 10 reduce to 3.

Well the Spiteful Spirit necro has surely been sorely targetted. Curses!

You mean that you have a problem with the SR nerf because you will have to take energy management like EVERY other caster class?

Basically you are only complaining because the primary attribute is not overpowered anymore. I played on my necro, using various builds, and still had NO PROBLEM managing energy, if you are running out of energy on a regular basis, take energy management, and if you still have a problem, you are doing something wrong. I tested the builds with QZ up, just to try to replicate the worst case scenario, and still had no problems.

oh no right to complain aye??? yeah well then I want my $150 back...because as a costomer I have every right to complain. yalll PvP guys shouldn't be able to complain because yall claim to be "leet" so stop complaining about an "overpowered build" and just come up with something to counter it...

QFT, PvP balance. And besides, MM's do bulldoze through PvE so it won't hurt having their initial minion buildup rate capped a bit anyway.

How are you going to counter it? E-denial? That definitely will NOT work. Interrupts? The spirit spammers used weapon spells like weapon of warding, so that most likely will not work. Teams had between 2-3 spirit spammers, so the only way to shut them down would be to take 2-3 mesmers all dedicating their bar to shut them down, which makes the team ineffective versus other teams.

BTW I play more PvE than PvP, and with the change it actually makes the necros in PvE think instead of just spamming hexes everywhere because they do not run out of energy, while the MM was pretty much untouched, because you can just take consume corpse.

Well just got back from in game and over 75% of all the necros I talked with agreed with me on this stance. I think anet needs to think " if we want to nerf something for PvP how can we not nerf it for PvE?" well they dont and thats sad...


Oh and about "energy managment" yeah us necros have no energy skills axcept a couple of elites that will give us nrg...now its all good saying that we need to learn to manage energy like other casters...just like an ele(good example right here) starts at 102 energy gets glyphe of lesser energy bam so much freaking energy. almost to much energy if you ask me. *sarcasm*

I am complaining because the nerf is over the top. We agree that is may have been too one sided but to go way to the other side. I have suffered with playing mesmer and warrior and having to eke out energy, and I did not enjoy playing that way. Oh well I guess ele's now rule even more extra energy.

If you are a MM, take consume corpse, that is net energy gain of +11. For curse or blood necro, I just put SR and death both at 10 so when I use CC I still get an energy gain of 5, which is usually enough.

Maybe it is all due to different play styles, but I do not have energy problems, and I know that there are many others that do not as well.

The Soul Reaping nerf was needed, you just had to go into observer mode in HA to see why.

Ok, it makes the MM role slightly harder to play, but hey, PvE is way too easy with minon masters anyway. With this new adjustment you are going to have to think a little now, which imo, is a good thing.

the nerf of soul reaping (maybe) makes the game harder. so when the game becomes harder u complain. hehehe....

did u know that if u add mm hero (olias, or master of whisper) the game become much much much much easier? so what the problem if they make the game harder?

where is your pve's spirit? don't lose hope glints bane! fight 'till the end! destroy anything in ur path and find ur destiny!!!

And some of pve players were saying that only pvp players yell ^^

Oh and btw- I still see necros running around so I think it means the change wasn't so bad

How should I say it...
Learn how to manage your Energy

Lets stop all this ranting and raving from both sides of the game (PvE and PvP).

No point in ranting and raving.

We all know that PvP dominates, primarily, the skill balances. Something we the hardcore PvE'ers have to live with.

I appreciate and understand that the necro class (my favourite char btw) is overpowered by soul reaping bonuses gained, primarily, from spirit-way related team builds, or so I am told by some of my pvp guild mates.

Fully understood and I agree that this causes unfairness to the pvp community.

So why fix something for PvE that don't need fixing Mr Skill balancer, fix soul reaping so that no energy gain can be gained when a spirit 'expires'.

I do hope that this 'so called balance' get reverted back to its original state.

How would the other classes fair if their main attributes where now balanced like for instance the Ranger's Expertise etc.

Sorry Mr Skill Balancer but no gg on the soul reaping 'balance'

The Defence calls Rebel Ghoul to the stand

Lawyer(lol): so Rebel Ghoul you are aware of the recent Soul Reaping change ?
RG: Yes sir.
L(lol): Did you find it harder to manage your energy ?
RG: Not Really cause i took out Bone Fiends from my build and added in Bone Horrors now only costing 10 Energy and Vampiric Horrors now only costing 15 energy. And with the shambling horrors also at 15 energy my Soul Reaping at 10 energy i was doing fine with energy management.
L(lol): I rest my case
Judge(Anetlols): I herebly declare the soul reaping change permanent change and adapt and don't dare complaining ever again or we'll send some wammo's over to youre house

I really feel sorry for people who do not have the Signet of Lost Souls. I guess that will be the next nerf to screw the energy of the Necro. Oops I should not have pointed that out.

Just a wild stab in the dark - But would it be possible to only implement this nerf in PvP and leave soul reaping untouched for PvE? That should make everyone happy and keep the balance.

deal with it and move on

just like you said

OF COURSE Pvp guys are the only ones complaining! Have you ever seen pve players complaining about paragon changes, soul reaping changes etc? I haven't!

yes because you see the PvP guys also complained about the "farming nerf" or when dying nightmares where added to UW, nope wait, those were the PvE guys

edit: rephrased my sarcasm to make more sense

i personally think is is a stupid nerf... we need to learn nrg management and suffer for it? thats one of the stupidest things i've ever heard, minions are nrg exstensive and require so much nrg its not like we have nrg management spell like elementalists (which is another nrg intensive class) or have the 100 nrg that they have. and if we have to have to add nrg management skills that kills the effectiveness of the build, i personally run 4 minion spells, fleshy, vamp horror, shambling horror, and bone fiend, i run this many to raise minions fast so i have an active spell recharged to raise a minion while others charge. so after 4 spells i use spells to keep myself alive, dark bond, healing breeze, healing circle and for minions blood of the master. where would i have room for nrg management spells and still be effective? next they needed to be nerfed so their more supportive and not so domanant? no they never were domanant, even use them as a solo is hard. you take alot of the harder quests in factions or especially nf with places like the underworld or elite mish like urgoz warren you can't keep minions alive and you need to constantly raise minions to even prove your worth to the party other than that minions are just distractions in situations like that with no real killing power especially now with out constant numbers. one of the most important things about it is when you raise an 11th minion so that one dies normally you get the nrg from ur minion dying which was a nice recycled boost now you can't nor can you keep raising to help the party much at all. if the nerf has to stay at least make the minons lvl 20+ so the pathetic lvl 18s don't die so fast and serve lil to no purpose as they do now cause you can't keep raising them so easily. they so low lvl the numbers of them make a difference but now that its harder to keep up numbers mm builds are so nerfed its not worth having in a party, and the necro fans will be really upset. this also hurts pro mm builds such as variations of death bomber taking the idea of creating lots of minions sending them into a group of nmes with death nova on them and destroying them. builds like this are no easy task for non experienced players and adds a fun challenging spin on having a mm build. i believe this hurts mainly mm and we all no mm are mainly a pve build and soul reaping serves no real purpose in pvp so i think it was a pointless nerf that just makes pple mad. any real pvp build just puts its extra points in soul reaping so its only like lvl 1-3 and isn't relied on, if a build in pvp does rely on this they don't know what they are doing. so bascally this nerf just effects the enjoyability and effectiveness of being a necro in pve. i believe its nerfs like this that kill something thats been fine for ages and gets players upset at developers and causes them to leave, it happens to every game i've played. developers mess it up and lose loyal players cause they don't listen. i've seen multimillion player games go to 20-100 pple on at a given time, so sad... i should start looking for a diff game if this is anet showing true colors.

That's why I said LEARN how to manage your energy...
Maybe it's time for you to start using Signet of Lost Souls/Reaper's Mark?
As you said- Minion Masters need a lot of energy, so why are you surprised with that you're eventually run out of energy if not properly managed?
Lolz0r, this is ridiculous... Let's get this straight...
Flesh Golem- 15e
Vampiric Horrot- 15e
Shambling Horrot- 15e
Bone Fiend- 25e
Dark Bond- 5e
Healing Breeze- 10e
Healing Circle- 10e
Blood of the Master- 5e
With this many skills that consume energy, no e-giving skills whatsoever (not even signet of lost souls), you're surprised THAT YOU RUN OUT OF ENERGY????

Now, I don't really like to say that kind of things, I don't want to sound like a noobish so-called 'pro' but... learn how to play Guild Wars

Posts like yours make me think that this change was absolutely needed

Just want to point something out... You suggest we all get Signet of Lost Souls and/or Reaper's Mark. Those are both Nightfall skills. Consider those of us without acces to Nightfall.

And everyone's only talking about MMs (again). I managed my energy fairly well, but I'm a blood necro, not a MM. Soulreaping will be sorely missed.

From the top...

Good to see you're being open and receptive to other points of view.

I rechecked my linked post to see if I said unstoppable, and no, I didn't. Please don't say I said things that I did not.

There is a difference between "bulldozing" and being "unstoppable." A team of the previous incarnation of Searing Flames could bulldoze through many areas, but they are hardly unstoppable.

If you're an MM, just let one of your guys die. If you're not, do what every other class does, plan for it when you make your build. And yes, Necros CAN (or could?) have massive amounts of in-flowing energy to make it seem endless.

I had to look at that twice, I thought you said Mesmer... I mean, Paragon... oh, drat, I'm so confused now...

Hardly. SS still works extremely well, and I can say this since I run an SS build as much if not more than I run MM.

That was the intention, just so we're clear. You don't really put in a minion cap without trying to reduce the total amount of minions. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.

It's not totally about PvP, although I will admit that's the pressing (loudest?) reason. As I said in my linked post, the developers may simply be trying to return the character to a supportive role, rather than the focal point of the party.

You're not screwed over. Your build is changed, perhaps, but not destroyed. Now, if you truly want to back the words you are saying, I should expect to see you voicing your complaints over the troubles the other professions are having.

PvE players have an equal right to complain (perhaps more so if said PvP player only purchased the PvP edition) since they paid the exact same as a PvP player.

And yes, PvE needs to be balanced too. A character pushing one skill button that kills everything in the area would be boring.

Warriors shouldn't be casting a huge amount of energy skills, nor spamming them. Warriors have 10 spells that cost more than 5 energy (and only one of them cost 15) and most of them have large recharge times.

So if your Warrior is trying to spam 10-15+ energy spells having only 25 energy, then YES it should have problems. Just like a Necromancer trying to spam 25 energy spells SHOULD have problems.

This is why Warriors have Adrenaline for instance. That's what they do. The same can be said for Necromancers (not the adrenaline part...). No class can consistently spam 20+ energy spells, why should the Necromancers?

Warriors aren't made to be casters. Elementalists have Exhaustion to deal with.

Spawning? Anyways... The reason people are having problems, is they are trying to play their builds as if it was prior to the Soul Reaping change. You can't. It's not "bad," it's different. We are just used to being able to spam spells, unchecked.

Like I said, playing a SS necro quite frequently... it's still the same ol' gal. I can cast just about every skill on my bar, and then in the following 10 or so seconds, the one or two targets die and the energy gained from Soul Reaping and Regen are enough for me to do it again. (Granted the build can kill more than two things in 10 seconds, but I'm going on a bare minimum here for point of argument.)

Two things. After you spent the first $50 you should have realized that the skills are changed, and that any feature of the game is up for dibs.

And you just said you had the right to complain as a customer... but PvP players have no right to complain? You see the contradiction?

And the majority of Necro players on other threads I have read are having little to no problem with the update. Isn't anecdotal evidence fun?

You aren't sitting in on the board with the developers, you don't know if they take these things in mind.

So, if they returned Soul Reaping to full, but many of the minion skills started to cause Exhaustion you would be... happy?

An elementalist doesn't "Start" at 102 energy. It's 105 energy for Energy Storage at 18, with all radiant insignias, staff with energy mod. That's hardly starting.

An elementalist with 12 energy storage, +1 rune, 2 attunements, staff and energy mod has only 39 more energy than any other caster. And most elementalist energy management skills are elites, AND they have to deal with exhaustion and generally expensive skills.

---

This change has been out for ONE day. This is just the standard "community backlash" of people who are accustomed to a certain style. We saw it with AoE, running AIs, and any other change groups didn't like.

Breath. Think. Act. Life will go on, and those wishing to end it, will still have their means to do so, without the massive amounts of energy.

If that is your example build its quite poor towards this arguement since the majority of necros do know for the most part that bone fiends have the highest dps which I tend to only run with aotl and occasionally flesh golem for a tank. The SR nerf really does hurt mm's trying to run a bone fiend filled corpse troop however i think a slight nerf was needed but not quite this harsh.

There are other options than just Signet of Lost Souls. Consume corpse is a perfect one for death magic. Offering of Blood for Blood magic (Both Prophicies skills)

If you're in the heat of battle, how about something like Channeling? Perhaps an interrupt in the mesmer line (power drain, leech signet).

Heck, even GoLE works, even for 10 e for two spells.

Read mystic fatality's post and see if it's my build or not

My builds aren't effective anymore and even when i did have the normal soul reaping i was groping for energy some times, this makes it even worse
/signed

do NOT touch to energy storage, lower mage


This nerf was needed, dumbass we say it for long enogh now ! And Energy once every 5 seconds is still great (and too much imo) AAAH sorry it makes farming less effective ... maybe that's why Elementalists are the true mages

I hate people who flame a nerf consistently, if it was needed, then so be it. Don't you think Anet has a better vision than your narrow point of view ? Many other professions were nerfed in the past, for the greater good ! ()

Look at it this way. Come GW: EotN they may give us a large bunch of soul reaping skills. Seriously have you ever known ANet to undo one of their changes to a primary attribute?

But yeah.. umm.. soul reaping is >>still<< overpowered. This is nonsense. Say you only get SR triggered once every 6.5 seconds on average (sounds about right for pve) and your SR is 13. Thats SIX ENERGY REGEN. SIX. SIX FREAKIN ENERGY REGEN FROM A PASSIVE ATTRIBUTE ABILITY. HOW IS TEN TOTAL ENERGY REGEN UNDERPOWERED?

Case closed.

c'mon all ! the nerf only makes this game a little harder! what's wrong with that? u all didn't like challenge??

While i aggree with the change to soul reaping myself, i'd just like to ask why you belive PvE'ers have no right to complain...they paid the same money as PvPers.
If you take PvP editions and CE releases into consideration then PvEers generally pay more.

Everyone who paid for the game has the right to complain about any changes they don't aggree with.

I couldn't agree more. I'm am predominantly a PvE player. I don't feel the need to rattle off my stats, but I've done very little PvP, and I still agree with this adjustment. Now, if we could only get them to make Ranger's expertise only work on Ranger skills...

I read nothing but complaints when this adjustment came out, but I decided to wait and see before making my stance. After rolling through a few zones in the Torment Realm with my curse necro, I really don't see what you are all complaining for. I rolled through the areas with no issues, no energy problems, and I don't use Signet of Lost Souls, mainly because I forget it is there or just don't need the energy (I ran SS/Reckless curse build, and let Olias do the MM duties).
After that, I thought, maybe I just got some lucky timing or something. So I asked my brother to try out his necro, since he is a lot better at necro than I am. He had zero problems as well, and he doesn't use Signet of Lost Souls. In fact, he told me "if you are having energy problems, use Signet of Lost Souls."
Basically, quit complaining. In reality, the SR adjustment was not enough. I think the real adjustment should be that "Soul Reaping does not trigger from spirits or minions." I'm sure that would double the line of rage-quitting necros.

/not signed, as if I had to type it at this point

Anet are never gonna change it back no matter how much you whine.

Don't waste your time or effort.