[Dev Update] Farming and Loot Scaling

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i see a major flaw in your assumption.
What you are saying, according to what i have understood, from your post, is that removing gold from low end farming is going to prevent cash from entering the game, and hence, the market will be less saturated with gold. Thus, causing money to gain value and decreases in prices, right?

But, the problem with your assumption is that you are assuming that money that comes from monsters are generated only, if not, mostly, by solo-farmers. The flaw is that is that money will keep on being generated as long as PvE is alive,even if solo farmers is nerf, since this is afterall the point of PvE i.e, to kill mobs for loot. The difference is that the money instead of coming from solo-farmers, it's going to come from those that go on major quest of mob annihilation which is what the new titles encourages. In other words, the high influx of cash from mobs are still going to enter the market in the end. The only difference is that it will be from other people and through another form of grinding (title farming).

We can also add that the bots which, according to you, is the source of the high influx of cash in solo-farming, is not even going to stop farming just because they got a reduced drop rate. Neither do they care about that, nor do they get bored because of that. They are, afterall, bots. The bots are still going to be there. Their progess may be slowed, but their actions are still there.

The mostly hit person then comes down to the casual farmers, who lost their low end farming, which was a rapid and efficient way for them to gain cash. Now, they have to do it through missions + quest which is going to take even longer. That means even more grind than before for them. Some casual players have life and dun't see it effective to spend their time with Hench/heroes just to afford a 15k armor or what other "candy" accessories they fancy. Afterall, these items are only there for vanity. They are as good as any other weapon. Which leaves me to wonder : why do people care that other people can afford these items or not?

Again... it is my assumption that yes, most of the money generation was due to farming. I cannot prove that, no, but like I said, I don't have to. Anet has that data, and chose to do what they did based on that data. Therefore, I can only surmise that their data said what I assume. Yes, money will still be generated, but not as much. You cannot deny that with a decreased cash flow all over the GW world, this will decrease the rate of inflation, correct?

Their progress is slowed by 8x. That's a lot by anyone's measure. Like I said, you cannot stop inflation, you can only slow it down. I think what Anet did does just that.

Or they can take up high-end farming. Oh is that too hard? Well, who is telling who they need to "work" for their cash?

It will not really decrease the rate of inflation since money is still entering the game. Bots are still present. The rich people who was affording those 100k+ xxxecto items are still rich and they will still have that same purchasing power. Afterall, they dun't get their cash from low end farming. On the other hand,Casual People will be more eager to go for Mr. E.Bay since it seem even more grinding to get cash now.

As you say, slowed, but not stopped. Bots dun't care how long they have to do it. They will still do it. So, their cash will keep coming in. The only thing is that they may even raise their prices. I dun't go ebay so I have no idea how much or what the prices will be. But, fact is they still can keep farming.

Some people have lives and dun't have the time to play GW all day long as many people do. That's the problem. That's also why many people use heroes/hench. You can't blame them if they dun't want to PuG. Afterall, they know what is going to happen and dun't want to go afk during the mission/quest and penalise the team for it. Henches on the other hand do not care. Using Heroes+ hench in Hardmode is purely suicidal.

They dun't want to work for the money. They want a quick, efficient, reliable way of getting their cash for 15k armor. It's not the best way to get money, but it is their little way of doing it. It's slower than high end solo farming like UW/DoA Duo Farms, but it takes faster than killing mobs with henches and praying for a good drops. It makes the grind less grind. That is also why casual players like it.

Now, you have not answered my question yet : why does other players actually care if other players are playing their way? Why does it matter that other players can afford their candy weapons or not?

Yeah... I'll just nod my head and move on.

Same here...


OK, no, I'll bite. So bots are making 8x less money, and you don't see that as a good thing?

I'm not even going to respond to the crap about heroes/henchies because it's irrelevant. That is exactly the problem. Casual players don't have time to farm, they just want to play when they have the opportunity. They have lives, ya know. If you want to farm, you obviously have the time for it, so apply it to actually working for your money, since that's what you want to do anyway.

Ohhhh, I guess I was mistaken. Then tell me, if they don't want to work for their money, why are they? They = farmers, right? I mean that is what we're talking about, people who farm, right?

Ohhh, so they want a big red button that says "Show me the money!" (This is so hilarious talking in the third person like this, considering I am a casual player, and have farmed, a lot)

Wait a minute, didn't you just spend all your post giving me reasons why people farm and what-not, only to give me this little ironic end-all be-all question (the second question)? As far as the first question, I will repeat this again: No one has stopped you from doing anything. Farm all day and all night for all anyone cares - you just simply make less doing it. If that is the way you wish to play, more power to you. If you want to just make a lot of easy money, well, me too! I also want to be able to walk up to Abaddon and hit the "You die! You die now!" button. Take a number.

Not really. Since it is going to end with the same result. Bot will still sell ebay cash. So, no change there.


I am sorry if you feel offended by this, but this is completely relevant to the question that you asked. You asked why did casual players not go to Hardmode, well the reason is that they dun't want to go with henches+ heroes or more exactly, they can't.

Not necessarily true.I think you are overreacting to it. Chill out. If you play games all day long or have the time to do so, good for you. But note, this does not apply to everyone.

Just because some farms , it does not mean they spend as much time as you or any hardcore gamer.

People have lifes i.e they only have have a limited time to play. Instead of playing with henches+ heroes and storm though a billions of mobs, and get crap as loot, they choose to solo-farm which will give them better drops.

In other words, with their limited time, they prefer to spend it more efficiently instead of wandering around and praying to get a good drops which never happens. By doing so, they are making the grinding less grind. Can you blame them?

I think you are generalising way too much there. There is a difference between your definition of "farmers" and the real definition of casual "farmers". The difference is that both dun't spend the same amount of time in farming. Hence, the term "casual".

According to you, farmers= people who play all day long and keep generating cash. This is false, and if you apply it to casual farmers, then your definition does not stand. Casual farmers only farm when they need the cash unlike the hardcore farmers (to which your definition of "farmers" apply) who farm all day long.


Your point eludes me completely there. What is it that you want to say, apart from your sarcasm and exasperation ?


In the same sense, we can all say what does it matter if other people are gaining their cash to but their 15k armor. So, since you can't even give even a slightest decent reason to support that idea, your point is in fact void, and feel more like jealousy or laziness. Game ethics have nothing to do with this.

Oh, an btw , No. I did not write all this to ask that question. But I would like that someone answers me since I did take time to answers all yours. This is a simple question of politeness. My whole point for posting was that your original idea was in fact, flawed, as I stated in the previous post.


Nobody said they wanted an easy mode. You are jumping the gun there. Hard mode is fine and all, but let casual players have their choice whether they want to go there or not. You can't force them to go there, which is exactly what you are trying to do, or implying at least.

As do you.

The average casual player I would assume spends no more than say, 4 hours a day playing? I'm picking an arbitrarily high number to illustrate a point.

Now a casual player is not solo vermin farming for those 4 hours, otherwise they're no longer casual. So we assume they're playing "as intended" PUGing and such.

Their rate of gold generation doesn't hurt the economy because GW hasn't changed the rate of drops for full 8 person parties in this update, meaning ANet doesn't feel they hurt/hinder the economy in any way.

Take the same player who turns to solo farming for extra cash. What could they need cash for? No one in their right mind expects to generate enough cash flow farming vermin to buy a crystalline sword, so it must be for other things, perhaps buying low end greens, cap sigs at 1k a pop for the skill hunter titles, and/or way overpriced runes and insignias to round out their character and heroes. THIS group has been hit the hardest, the casual once in a while solo farmer, because their target item, merch white/blues are no longer viable farming. The problem is, ANet decided that rather than deal with the real problem directly, BOTs, they chose to instead destroy the one sure way for the average player to generate a meaningful cash flow to build up their characters. Since as we all know, except for a very few number of repeatable quests, all quests and mission rewards are once only.

Now take the hardcore solo farmers, who have already got characters capable of soloing Hard Mode. These players are able to solo greens and golds at an INCREASED rate due to the changes. Prior to the update, the influx of these items drove DOWN prices because of the increased supply, negating the need for gold farming to a large extent. They are largely unaffected, and some may say even bolstered.

The true problem that should be combatted is BOTs, and since they require no rest of anykind and can farm 24/7 regardless of the crappyness of drops, all this nerf has done has been to increase the relative value of gold, which means gold sellers will be able to charge MORE real money for their services per gold piece.

Cause and Effect.

Supply goes up, demand stays constant, price goes down

Supply goes down, demand stays constant, price goes up

Simple economics. The simple truth is ANet has made BOTs and gold selling more lucrative, have hamstrung the majority of casual players ability to make gold in the game and actually play without saving every last red cent, and turned the economy into a player-player barter system with no better way to accomplish the exchange than spamming WTS for 2 or more hours in chat. Sure, you can use fansites to auction, but that onus should be on ANet to facilitate an in-game trade network, easily accomplished by a modified Party Search window.

And don't forget, as gold supply decreases, the relative value and time to acquire static priced items like armor, heck even id and salvage kits goes up.

And I'm not sure if you understand basic math or not, but several people have pointed out the justification of "all players make the same now regardless of playstyle" is completely rediculous in an economy with money. In a sense, ANet has said that with no better way to make money, all prestige items are now out of reach. They've made 15k armors, FoW, high end golds even MORE out of reach of most players than before, despite the FACT that Gaile has stated ANet's position is to make the items MORE accessible.

I'm not sure if you know what hypocrisy is, but that's it. I await your flames.

Hi

Granite Citadel Europe English 1

What if I prefer Normal Mode because I can survive in Normal Mode. I always have my trusty Heroes/Henchmen with me. I always beat at least 2 bosses when I do my Domain of Secrets farming. I study my builds there.

I tried Hard Mode. Ok I got a few purple items right off the bat for actually reaching the Mesmer boss, but by that time, me and my computerized buddies, who never complain that I'm a noob, have 60% Death Penalty. Yes, I so need to create a new build I so need to totally re-invent the way I play to make enough to buy a black dye on a work day.

I usually play 4-6 hours every day. I rely on my Normal Mode farming to get as many item drops as possible. So that I can salvage/sell/keep anything that may be worth selling(this pays for my Keys/Dyes/Skills).

On the side, I help other humans who prefer playing the game(I love playing this game too) to sell their items while they have all the fun.. But I do this for profit. I have 600k worth of armor now not from farming, but from doing odd jobs that require me to sit in a town and watch trade spam all day.

But when I go out to kill monsters and explore, cap skills, do quests, missions, I barely ever get the drops that most people can get 20-50k for (mods especially) from other players. So, in order for me to stay on top, after I spent all my other profits on my armors, I have to rely on the already cheap gold farming system that I share with my heroes and hench..

For example, a monster drops 108gold = 12gold for me. Kill 200 monsters.. get around 45 [money] drops 45x12= 540gold in 1 hour or so. Fill my limited inventory (cuz I love showing off my wares) with cheap items.. mostly white, some blue and purple, a gold item drops for me maybe 3 times a week(never a good one trust me). All that = 50-120g --on average, each-- JUST for me. 1 hour = 1.3k so for me to get a black dye I have to farm for approximately 6 hours in the Torment area[Normal Mode], which allows me to use Henchmen/Heroes* I'm just not interested in playing completely solo, or with other humans, ever.

But the quality of those items that drop in Normal Mode's high end area was reduced, thus making it impossible for me to sell anything to players, unless I save up 25 loot items(now takes more than an hour to farm) to buy a lock pick[which with my luck usually breaks after 2 uses]. So it's basically same price as regular keys.. but again my luck in the chest department lacks a bit. I've gotten maybe 20 perfect mods in past 6 months. Barely ever the best selling, most expensive ones.. and those are further reduced in price check lists almost every day, or people just don't bite when I want to sell(mainly low-ballers ruin the fun of Trading too). Taking more time from the enjoyment of the game(killing monsters, making decent builds--not the meta builds posted on wiki and what not, but my own creations, exploring, questing, missions).

So, yes I agree that bots need not reply, they won't care if it takes them 35 hours to get what they used to get in 10 hours. But I care that I haven't made 2 million gold yet by simply playing the game for 2000 hours with hench/heroes/humans, never solo, never in Elite areas where I can't bring my Heroes/Henchmen.

So, my suggestion is to develop a "in-town" character loop detection system (a bot that detects bots). As a human, I will never do the exact same actions more than once in a town/outpost or when I go out farming (with my hench/heroes). So if you see an account that is doing same exact movements (especially in Granite Citadel) more than 5 times, flush their IP address, not just the account, send an email explaining to them that a bot caught their bot. See how fast "blablagold.com" goes down the tubes.

Good job on everything else in the game. But the bot problem will never be solved without actual ingame enforcement, which costs money, unfortunately.

Truly a work of art you guys created. Thank you for the countless hours of enjoyment so far, and into the much anticipated future.

Right now I'm speaking as a casual player, and I'm going to call you up on this one. A casual player doesn't have the time to farm, but has to fit it in regardless, because the games money sinks are stronger than the money you get from just playing. Using myself as an example - I play 8-10 hours a week, during which time I'll make ~20k from adventuring. To keep the game fresh you have to continually buy skills so giving just 2 skills a week to each of my characters and I've already spent every cent I earned without even looking at things like xp scrolls for skillpoints.

No, a casual player doesn't want to farm, but unless they're the sort of person who can play with the same skill bar week after week, the game forces them to. Just since the update, my bank account has gone down 10k because the ability to do a quick rihlon or vermin run at the end of the night has been taken away. When my bank account hits 0 I'm not sure what I'll do, but it will amount to being forced to spend 3/4 of my time farming or give up playing altogether.

As a casual player, the update had done absolutely nothing to help me. It has not made the "coolest" items any easier get, but it has taken the absolute bare basics away from me.

Woosh.

My little argument (which i never did really finish) with Tabasco is that money doesnt equal an advantage. I still firmly believe that having more money doesn't give you any advantage, since PvE is a non-competitive environment, and even very badly equipped players can progress a player to the end.

However i do believe money makes the game way way way way way more FUN.

i like this point

I think "competitive" should be replaced with "equipped with all things they need to have the same equipment as someone who had a lot of money" (including runes/insignias/weapon mods).

People have said it on this thread, and i agree, Anet needs to add better rewards for actually questing through the game casually.

My want list would include:
1) Runes and insignias as rewards for Masters completion of key missions.
2) Quartermaster items usable for buying other things like skills and capsigs and maybe weapon mods.
3) Increased drop rate of trophy items to get collector armors/weapons
4) More variety and better stats for collector armors/weapons + collectors for weapon mods (only work on collector weapons)
5) Stop putting collectors in the middle of nowhere -.-

These increased rewards should be progressive and natural through the course of the games.

Well the update was intended to do easier obtain the coolest items to party players. There are 2 ways to do that, increase party drops that don't harm anybody, and decrease the solo farmers drops that damage a type of play. This is the problem, why the second?. One of the problems of these form is that the player who has 1000ks and 100ks in any character they are richer now because the gold is worth more, and the players who plays 5 or 6 months for fow armor for example they have difficult to obtain their goals. They have the data, then I think like that they think and no error is possible, is the only way I don't know the data, I will believe it with the eyes closed. They know with his data if you are playing to buy the FoW armor or to sell a gold item and they know if you like or not because the data says that, that data can say what you want to interpret, the player is the one that says what he wants, not the data. I believe that damage a pile of users never it is the best way to do nothing. Yes, a few users can be happy so that others do not gain so much and nobody gains more gold, nerf is the way to be happy.

I am not against that they try to control the inflation but there are many better forms, the form that they choose are a drastic form to do it. Simply to kill a type of game is not the answer.

arcanemacabre, first you need to qaulify your terms.

When one says "casual" farmer they mean someone who farms occassionally to get that skill, scroll, piece of armor, or alcoholic beverage to keep them interested and topped up so they can continue to play and have fun.

The "low end" farmer, usually meaning hardcore or bot, farms areas for white and gold coins that can be quickly merchanted for gold.

Yes, the "casual" farmer can be a "low end" farmer, but that doesn't mean the "low end" farmer is a "casual" farmer.

Example; occassionally player X farms Hydras for a few platinum to get some skills or keys.

"Hardcore" farmers spend a majority of their time farming.

"High end" farmers farm for ectos, greens, and rare skinned gold items.

"Hardcore" farmers can be "high end" farmers, but that doesn't mean "high end" farmers are "hardcore".

Example; occassionally player Y farms for a green item to equip some of his heros, or help out his guild/friends.

Logic 101.

FWIW, /agree! Really good ideas, all.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Maybe I'm missing something (which is highly likely), but I just finished vanquishing the Island in Nightfall (/highfives /backslaps /humble bows) running with full heroes and henches and, if you include what I've spent on lockpicks, made better than 30 plat just on gold and drops. The only sold item was an Elite dervish tome (15 plat, 5 minutes to sell).

It seems to me, being not a classic farmer, that there's plenty of income to be made just playing "normally". Caveat: It did take two to three hours a night (with a couple nights missed) over the course of the week, so I can't make any claims as to record gold/hour rates.

But the money's there... enough to finance anything you wish.

{Sidebar} Anyone else going for vanquisher with your mesmer? Good times!

A reminder regarding economics.

Some have said that you can't apply real world economics, because in this game, when gold goes to a merchant, it is taken out of circulation. While this is true, it does not mean that economics can't be applied, you just have to account for the differences and use a different and more advanced economic model, something more than simple supply and demand. Remember that while gold constantly leaves circulation through merchants, it also constantly enters circulation through monster drops and quest rewards(btw, in real life, there is also a control over money in circulation, on how much enters or leaves the economy, in the U.S. it is called the Federal Reserve). The question is are the rates equal, and if not, which is higher? This tells us whether there is more or less gold in the economy as a whole. Yes, if there is less gold in circulation, the "price tag" on variable items will drop, but the actual price, the value measured in terms of how much work it takes to get it, will go up. This is also a question of which occurs faster. However, the one major thing to remember about this particular economy is that there are many items in it, some vital and some optional, whose price tags are permanently fixed. This is important because changes in the amount of gold in circulation affect these items oppositely of how they affect items with variable prices. If the amount of gold in circulation drops, variable price tags decrease and the actual value of gold goes up, then the relative cost of fixed price items increases. By the same token, if there is more gold in circulation, the cost of these items is decreased. Something with a 1k price tag is a lot more expensive if the average person has a total of 10k than if the average person has 100k.

QFT, and:

QFT, second boldface added for emphasis.

These two posts say more than I ever could. We can argue theory and apply principles all day long, but in the end what really matters is the players' perception and experience. I've seen more than enough posts like these over the last few days, that combined with my own personal experience, I am more than confidant that this time, Anet has really screwed up. What are you going to tell these players? "Go ahead and keep playing with the changes anyway, it doesn't matter if you still enjoy the game or not?" The fact is that these changes are driving away players, or rather, customers. I doubt that Anet is attracting any new customers with the tagline "Hey, check out our new and improved loot system, monsters drop less stuff!" This is at least one bit of economics that Anet should be concerned with.

The sad thing is, it probably won't be fixed. Anet has a poor track record when it comes to these things. Typically when they discover that their "fix" was broken or ineffective, rather than remove it and try something different, they simply try to apply a new fix on top of the old. A patch on a patch just gets weaker. Pretty soon all you have left are layers of patches without much underlying structure left to support anything. If Anet truly wants to fix this or any other situation, they need to admit it was a mistake, roll it back, and try something different.

I think cellardweller is a great example of a casual gamer.

DING DING DING! This is what i have been complaining about since Factions but honestly it has been there since Prophecies. The money sinks (skills, low cost max armor, and max damage weapons) are too high for even the casual gamer. All that stuff should be given to the gamer. If you want 15k or FoW armor then farm/grind for it. If you want a rare skinned perfect weapon then farm/grind for it. If you want titles then farm/grind for it.

A casual gamer is forced into one type of playstyle, farming. Just playing through the game will not get you all skills for your primary and secondary, low end max armor, and max damage weapon.

For me that is a problem as it is bad game design.

Unfortunately, you will have to do what i have been doing all along, not buying skills unless i absolutely need them or have extra cash available. Right now my gold is just under 30k and once it hits 40k then i buy 10 skills. I can't tell you how long that will take to reach 40k. It may take 1 or 2 missions or i may never reach that again unless i farm.

There has been many ways suggested to fix this problem that Anet has ignored. From giving all skills for your primary and secondary at completion of the game to questing for "collector-type" max armor and weapons.

I don't think it will be fixed.

I mostly farmed vermin, so I guess that makes me a low end casual farmer. I'm not going to make any claims about other people, but I can say that I've never contributed to inflation.

My money has gone towards:
- buying skills, because its fun trying out new skill bars
- this includes capturing elites (also fun)
- saving up money for 15K armor, and the materials for 1.5k Kurzick armor
- buying keys, because I hate seeing those chests and not being able to open them

If I didn't low end farm periodically I'd either have to spend way more time just earning money in a group or give up some of the above.

By the way, why is key buying such a huge money sink? Is it only me, or is it just bizarre that a key costs more than the contents of the chest!

In total I've traded two items for gold (6k), and swapped one item for another, after which I decided that trading with other players for anything would be a last resort because the trading system (if you can call standing in a town yelling at people a system) was such a pain.

As a "casual player" I'm not likely to be playing in hard mode so farming in hard mode isn't an option (particularly as none of my characters have beaten the game yet).

The other irritant with the update is that there is no incentive to take less henchies into an area. It was fun seeing if I could survive exploring an area with less companions. Without the extra incentive (a bit more cash) for making things harder on myself the fun goes out of it.

So ANet has made the game less fun for me, to fix a problem which I had no part in causing. I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just pointing out why I don't like the update, and why I'm really unimpressed with the way that ANet treats their customers.

My wish list:
- undo the loot scaling
- increase the drop rate for large groups as an incentive to PUG (if that's what ANet wants people to do)
- reduce the price of keys (so that at least you have a 50/50 chance of making your money back)
- lower the cap price for skills (500gp?)
- institute a real trading system
- weight the probability of item drops so that items are more likely to be useful for the class of the character

This is wrong. We all know money comes in no matter what. The point is to control it, not stop it. Changing how solo farming works is key to controlling it & stopping ebayers. If solo farming wasn't such a huge part of the economy there wouldn't be so many people complaining. But no matter how much it hurts the economy, trying to tell someone they can't make cash as easily is never going to be well accepted.
Changing the focus of solo farmer's income to selling rare items to other players is genius, but there is a problem: they really need an auction system to make it as quickly as solo farming.

This is incorrect. The drop rates or rares are better, the droprate of gold & whites/blues is worse. Gold & Merching are the primary income of bots. Selling rares to the Merchant is not a good source of income for bots, they need quantity over a short time.(whereas a player can make 10k from something only worth 300g to a Merch) They are taking quite a hit from this.

Why would you think that anything related to the phrase "can't make cash as easily" would be acceptable to anyone? Geez, I get that every day in real life! Games are supposed to be an escape.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Because boundaries are a necessity to fun. A game without rules isn't a game. Tick Tack Toe is simple, but once you get to things like GW you need rules for every little detail. As much as people want this or that to be easy, if you can get what you want too easily, it ceases to be fun. People would leave because they had everything. Not only that, but nothing would have value. An elemental sword? big whoop, I have 6.

I want a Firey Blade Axe really bad. It looks so awesome. But I don't want to spend 50k on one and I have yet to find one after farming/chest running the desolation many times. But part of what makes getting the axe worth it is the difficulty in getting one. This doesn't mean that it should be a challenge to walk, but making money selling rares is hardly crippling the game fun. This game is already accessible to a embarrassing degree. Does it have to be a hand out?

The more I think about the new loot scaling it always takes me back to the same conclusion. WE NEED A NEW TRADE SYSTEM.

Now in the past I was never a big fan of an Auction House or anything trade related.

But if Anet wants to encourage more player trading, they need a new system. That's the only missing peice to this new change.

I was a big fan of the new party/trade search, but still it takes just as long to sell something on there as it does spamming in a local district. And what to sell? I wish I could sell everything I collect on my travels but I'm not going to sit in a town all day trying to sell stuff for 500gp-1k.

The only thing the new loot system has boosted is the market for unidentified golds. ( I been getting alot of gold recently ) But even those are a hard sell at times.

Now its getting ridiculous. You got people demanding Tomb Traders. Why? Cause peope are selling them too high, if people are going to sit in towns all day trying to sell something, they want a pretty penny for it.

I believe a new trading system would not only create more player trading, but lower prices, increase wealth among players in masses, and let people sell stuff and play the game at the same time. Also let them buy stuff just as fast.

Otherwise the only other solution is to have npc traders for everything. A green weapon trader, a weapon mod trader, a tome trader, a holiday item trader, etc etc.

I don't want to have more npc traders. I want more player trading, but we need a new system. No casual player is going to spend a whole day not adventuring so he/she can unload all their spoils of war. Thats not playing a game, thats a second job.

And this is coming from someone who was never behind a Aucton House. But yeah, it took a change in the loot drop rate for me to see the light.

And not only that but this ticks me off. GW is a growing game. Auto Assualt is virtually dead, yet they just got an Auction House.

Yeah they pay monthly. But if that's what it takes.

I'd love to buy mods, golds,and greens without sitting in town all day. And sell my mods, golds, and greens as well. But to other players. Not some npc who's just going do nothing with the gold I give to them.

Or sell those items to an npc who's going to sell them back to other players for 33% more.

So yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think we need a new trading system. But I also think anet will just take the easy way out and make more npc traders.

This presumes that there is a limited number of bots which of course there isn't. Pro farmers will just run 4x more bots to keep gold production the same. (the algorithm used to scale isn't 1/8 for solo but more like 1/4 according the Gaile) And they will raise their prices for said gold to cover the costs of more accounts.

What is the best selling computer game series of all time? The Sims. That is a sandbox game, with no set defined rules or boundaries. In fact, they deliberately left cheats in the game to allow players to circumvent all rules. Its difficulty level was entirely left to the player to decide.

You could make the case that this is an exception, albeit the highest money grossing best selling ported to umpteen gazillion languages game series of all time.

Maybe your definition of fun is boundaries?

In fact, a case could be made that IRL, the dream of people worldwide is ridiculous wealth, which will effectively remove all boundaries. Bill Gates looks like he is having soooooooo little fun, right?

Maybe what you mean is that superceding boundaries is fun. Character progression is exactly that - seeing areas in Kryta that gave you difficulty, watching the progression of your character as those areas become increasingly easy - that is fun.

Guild Wars plateaus fast, which is both a blessing and curse. Maintaining interest in a devoted player base requires a grind approach, to make you work to get the high-end styling equipment that is not necessary at all. FOW armor is no better than 1.5K Krytan, right? And since upper-level areas are limited until recently with Hard Mode, it was grindy.

You are under the (mis)conception that all players have basic needs fulfilled and are working towards such luxuries. Which is a perfect segue to ->

That is where you are getting confused, probably because we all agree with you. Luxury items are not included in this.

Talk about Unlocking skills at 1 plat a pop, runes and inscriptions for your characters and heroes, and basic weaponry salvage, all on a budget that minimizes farming in-game, and we are on the same page. With what, close to 1100 skills, excepting the skills you can get as quest rewards and such, we are still talking 600 Plat just for skills. As a casual player, do you get that playing through the campaigns? (Hint, the answer if NO)

So ratchet your expectations down a notch, and we will have a common frame of reference. I have been playing since launch almost 2 years ago, and I have not collected all skills, I do not have anything beyond 1.5 K armor for my 8 characters in PvE, and I have not fully kitted out my heroes.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

You're making a false assumption that a casual player needs all of the skills for their primary and secondary, which is not the case at all. Casual players are not expected to have every skill available to them. The design of the eight-skill limit ensures that a character can be successful with fewer skills, as long as they choose those skills effectively. And the fact that skill quests/hero skill trainers give out many of the essential skills for each class means that any player will be able to play his class well without much monetary investment.

I challenge you to show me a single player who was unable to finish the game before getting UAS.

Keys are basically a lottery ticket. You're paying for the chance to get a really valuable item.

Exactly. RPGs are and always have been about character progression. If you want everything to be accessible when you start the game, there are dozens of other game genres that will give you that option. I'm surprised so many people are upset with what is one of the defining characteristics of role playing games.

So raising their operating costs by 4-8x isn't going to put a significant dent in their business? Computers, bandwidth, and electricity aren't free. Even if this update doesn't end bot farming altogether (and it probably won't), it will still reduce it by a non-trivial amount.

Also, if they have to raise gold prices by 4-8x, then their customers won't be able to afford as much gold. As an analogy, my state recently introduced a $1 cigarette tax (a price change of about 1.25x), and many retailers reported sales drops of 30-50%. Making GW gold more expensive in real life will curb the market considerably.

Fair enough, I'd always thought of them more literally (and therefore expected the worth of the chest contents to be more in line with the cost of the keys).

But, according to the plan, the price of items will be reduced so their customers won't need to buy as much gold. As an aside, who on earth buys gold? I may object strongly to the update but I can't imagine using real money to buy fake gold ...

Of course there's a limited number of bots. You need a machine and a GW account to run each bot, as well as oversight. If gold botters could easily double the number of bots they ran to make up for the nerf, they *already would have* to *double their income pre-nerf*.

This is so mind-blowingly obvious that I have to ask if you and others with the same opinion have actually thought about it before saying anything.

Peace,
-CxE

Granted, you don't need all the skills for primary and secondary, but you do need a decent amount. Especially if your character uses multiple secondaries, this can get expensive. How do you know how to "choose skills effectively?" This usually comes down to experience, you have to test the skills out. Quite often a player will buy a skill that looks useful, but then ends up being junk when put to the test, or it starts out useful and then gets nerfed. After prophecies, I have gotten very few new skills simply because I don't want to gamble on purchasing one and finding out later that I wasted my 1k. I have to be cautious about the ones I do buy, and whenever possible, I try to make do with what I can get from quests, etc. So yes, it is possible to play without a huge monetary investment in skills, but it can be a pain too.

Well, there's some speculation involved, but it is entirely possible to run multiple copies of GW on the same computer, so in theory they could either just add more bots per computer that they have, or if they've already maxed that out, then they can increase their bots with a minimal number of new computers. If they can do it without increasing the number of computers, then they haven't increase electricity costs, and if I can run this thing on a dial-up connection(don't laugh, it's all I can get where I live ), then any broadband connection should be able to handle a sizeable number of copies of the game without much trouble.

However, Nomen Mendax has a point. If the value of gold in the game increases by 4x(or 8x, or whatever), then the bots don't have to farm 4x as much gold, they just raise their prices by 4x and the customers end up getting the same value in product. For example, if one new gold = 4 old gold and let's say that in the past 500k cost $50 (I really have no idea, just going off of what I've seen posted here and using easy numbers for demonstration). So now, the bots would sell 125k for $50, their costs would not have increased at all, and the buyer would be getting the same purchasing power in game for the same price he would have previously paid. I think it becomes more and more clear that this update does very little to discourage bots, but instead it has been hurting it's players and driving them away. If you really think that the casual player is not widely represented on these forums, than doesn't it make sense that if the few casual players who actually post here that they are leaving the game, then many times more who don't come here are doing the same?

Oh, and about the cigarette tax? They did something like that here, and when it happened, yes, it curbed local purchases. But what they found out was that people started crossing state lines to make their purchases and black market sales increased. So, if something becomes more expensive through one source, the purchases drop ony in so much as people can't get it from anywhere else. Here it's not a direct cost, but a value of time vs. money, if the time it takes to earn gold is worth more to players than the money to buy it, farming goes down and the bots' sales go up.

I beg to differ. Gold sellers need a certain supply of gold to meet customer demands. So they were running just enough bots pre-nerf to meet that demand. With the cut in supply they have three choices. Run more bots (multiple bots per machine I'm sure and they always had to deal with buying more accounts when one got banned so this was always part of their operating cost), raise prices to reflect the diminished supply, or change the bots to farm ectos (which Anet conveniently made easier for them in normal).

Casual human farmers don't have as many choices therefore they were nerfed considerably harder than the bot farmers.

On the contrary... a smart uber-farmer would be maintaining as large of a stockpile as possible in case ANet has a bot-purge event. Then they would still be able to meet demand even if their bot supply was dramatically reduced. Rainy day and all that.

The Sims vs Guild Wars. ugh....I cant believe you went there.

The Sims is less of a game and more of a 3d dollhouse. Yes cheats exist in the game to break the rules like make money, move objects, etc. Theres also tons of hacks and 3rd party programs for the sims.

However do not confuse in game freedom with CHEATS. Applying the same mindset on in-game-rules from Sims, a one player game, to Guild Wars, an online multi-player game, is a very flawed idea.

Ever heard of The Sims Online? It FAILED massively. The Sims only works as a 1 player dollhouse. Taking the sims and making it massively multiplayer turns it into basically a giant chatroom with no purpose, since theres nothing to do, the predecessor to Second Life, but without the furries and flying penises.

If you wanna compare any version of The Sims to Guild Wars, use The Sims Online.

Lol, I hate Sims Online, mainly because EA Games axed a perfectly good game (Earth and Beyond) so they could use the servers for that catastrophe.

Anyway, sorry to get sidetracked, back on topic. I think the point that Tabasco was trying to make is that a game can be very successful with few limits and boundaries. Granted the situations are different, and I'm not going to argue the validity of the point, but just consider his words from that perspective and it might make more sense.

Come to think of it though, there was an MMORPG with the "sandbox" model. Star Wars: Galaxies. It did pretty well for a while, up until it alienated it's playerbase by putting restrictions on the players' ability to choose how they played. Anyone else think there is a lesson here?

If you dont cheat, The Sims is a VERY VERY constricting and grindy game.

In fact theres more rules in the Sims than GW. You have to eat. You have to sleep. You have to pee. You have to have a social life. You need money. You need exercise. Oh and upkeep of your house.

You need to do all these things or else your sims will be VERY unhappy and can potentially die (death through constapation FTW!!).

You wanna build the ultimate house? Your sims needs money then. You need to get promoted. But you cant keep working without talking to people and your sim gets lonely. Lets not factor in pets, and kids etc.

Freedom? Meet reality.

Its a one player game. Nobody cares if you cheat except you. Unless you're doing a legacy challenge.

In a multiplayer game, players cant cheat just because things get hard -.-

edit:
I read wiki on the "sandbox" mechanics of SWG, being the fully customizability of a character's looks, equipment, and house, etc.

My question then is...in SWG, how did your character gain skills, money or armor. Did you just "have it" as in a purely sandbox way, or did you need to unlock or earn things?

I also read the restrictions that ended up killing it, like, changing of the combat mechanics so some classes could not equip certain weapons, and reducing class numbers.

Lol, it’s hard not to laugh with all the gold traders out in the open now.

Maybe this is really the way of the future; legalise the purchase of game gold. We could have a wine bar (sorry m8, a Pub) and a takeaway for the Elona Kebabs.

Serious question; does this game have DMs like in a lot of other rpg. Responsible people that ‘police’ the community?

If it doesn’t, it’s time it did. The gold traders and their robots could be asked to id themselves and if they don't, put them in the Ascalon sewers for a while.

I’m really so fed up of trying to get into the story of the game and have goldblahblah.com keep appearing on my screen. In the real world I have a popup blocker.

You couldn't be more wrong. The sims has TONS of boundaries. How long it takes you to do something, what the requirements are to achieve certain effects/solutions & reactions, who you talk to, and what you need to do to influence other characters. Even if you cheat (which is a whole different kind of cheating since it doesn't effect other people in the way it would in GW), a game still has boundaries. Games are defined by boundaries.
Are you saying you want a cheat to get everything and instantly win in GW?

The other problem is that you are comparing this to the sims. GW is VERY different. it's just not that kind of game. Whereas the sims tends to focus on nudging a universe to see what happens, GW you are in specific control of a specific character in a story, in missions with armor & weapons against monsters you HAVE to kill to win. It's so different.

Ok, if you want to make a point, that's fine, but don't just whip out every horrible analogy & semantic dance you can muster. Let's keep a modicum of realism here.

Oh I see... We can complain all day about how limitless the boundaries should be and how the sims reflects the proper balance of limitation but if I suggest getting a firey blade axe, I'm unrealistic?
I hardly ever farm. Maybe twice a week, for 1-2 hrs I farm a place that has a weapon I want. I NEVER solo farm, I like heros. Yet, I have 200k saved, have 4 sets of 15k, one set of 10k dyed black and lots of greens. I have more skills than I use, and more than enough than to beat all the games. I've only played about 1700 hours over the past 2 years (that's about 2hrs a day. half average tv time for an adult male in the US). And your telling me that there isn't enough income for casual players to get SKILLS? No. I don't buy it at all.

I'm in a little bit of a hurry, but I'll try to sum up. Basically, there was something like 32 different professions, some basic, some advanced, and players could train multiple professions, picking and choosing skills so they could make an entirely customized character. Some players were pure melee combat, or pure ranged, some were "support" characters, entertainers, crafters, etc. Most were their own unique combination, playing exactly how they wanted to play. Me? I was a pistoleer/pilot who did a bit of dancing and politics on the side, it's what I enjoyed doing. Then, SOE released the "New Game Enhancements," or NGE. This effectively changed the entire game, restricting players to one of nine linear professions, no cross training. That and the fact that the combat system became a twitch-based mess more suited for a console game, and players started cancelling accounts and jumping ship in droves.

I know someone who did this with lots of grind before Balthazar Faction came out.

Well, why did SoE mess with it if it was working? So they tried to appeal to more people, and actually made it worse.

Besides, nerfing solo farming in Guild Wars is hardly comparable to the total game overhaul of Galaxies: whole classes were removed. Skill sets changed. Jedi powers were made easier to get, as I understand it.

All in all, it pissed off everyone currently playing the game, while not attracting anyone new (I actually go a free trial, but couldn't even make it through the tutorial, the game kept crashing).

I see your point. GW should not be a sandbox, that is true. My analogy may have been less than perfect.

I think the meat of your discussion is captured in that once sentence. However, keeping with my flawed argument, all those "rules" can be easily circumvented in the Sims. It was still wildly popular, and it broke every rule of game design then and since.

But you are correct, GW =/= sandbox.

The original poster, quoted here:

I believe that he brought in other games as analogies, namely TicTacToe.

That is my defense and I am sticking to it. "He started it!"

------------------

Back to the original point, in that I have to preface this with:

We do not know the full effect(s) of the Loot alteration yet. It may be beneficial to players and detrimental to ebay gold farmers.

Darksun was using high-end equipment as his yardstick of what casual players should not have. On that, we all agree. No controversy.

I was repointing him towards an actual debate, which was about skills, runes, inscriptions, 1.5k armor, and collector & drop weapons, which as you yourself say Lyra, are not achievable by playing the game only.

That is a problem.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I just think it is funny that you tell me to be realistic, and then claim to be able to understand casual play - with 1700 hours played, farming twice a week, and 4 sets of 15k?

Pot, meet kettle?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I'm actually doing an experiment.

I made a new warrior using my PvP slot in Cantha.

Shes gonna go through PvE with some very special rules.

1) Always full parties, hench or pugs.
2) No access to Xunlai Storage.
3) No Farming.
4) No buying of skills that would NOT be buyable from that trainer (as in...ill pretend i dont have any unlocked skills...)
5) No free items from guildmates. All purchases are from traders or other players.

I'll try to have my results by next week.

And yet it's still casual amount of play, especially over 10 characters. I've been reading posts about this farming and people telling us how they "only" play 4hrs a day. The only thing hypocritical here is how you change perception to fit your argument. 2 hrs a week of farming, oh nooes! I can get more completing all the quests. Not only that, but if you play even less, your drops will be of higher quality.
Besides, you have yet to point out how I would be at a loss for skills money with all the stuff I have. Oh yeah, how much do you play & Watch tv?

And I noticed that it went completely over your head. It actually accents your use of the Sims incorrectly.
Since you didn't get it, let me break it down for you:
tice tac toe has simple rules, because it's a simple game. Guild Wars Has lots of rules, because it is much more complex.
Maybe you can tell me what's wrong with that statement.

And with the exception of the fact that we don't know exactly what the scaling will do to the future, I disagree with you.