[Dev Update] Farming and Loot Scaling

Sure was. I'm glad that now prices are down, I can earn more in HM because I get rewarded for more challenge, and bots have a harder time. It was annoying to know that only 12hr gimmick UW farmers could get cool items.

You're actually telling me that my opinion does not matter because the game co. has done something that I support. That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. The whole point of measuring the people who are FOR with the people who are AGAINST is to know weather they should alter the nerf or not. ANET cannot make a choice as to weather this is working or not based on the reaction of 1 group of people. They need to hear for & against and opinions.

Or "our economy is more stable, the game difficulty is more reasonable & you'll actually have a chance to get those cool items you want"
It's all on how you want to spin it.

I think by "hardcore" he means people consistently ranting. Adamant about their position.
Level cap is by far the biggest complain of GW. People still don't buy the game because of it. Threads about it still pop up. If you think that that is a special tiny group you're just hearing what you want to hear. They fact that you are afraid to even acknowledge opposing viewpoints makes me wonder about the validity of your argument.

Darksun you are so missing the point.

OK so you can get more loot in hard mode (which I've tried in a couple of areas by the way and got zip) Well grats. but the point is Gaile said that these changes are to help the casual player, the player that enjoys the game that wants to play through the campaign and do a little farming on the side to afford the things they need.

Newsflash the casual player can't now. He's being forced to finish the game and farm in hard mode to make cash.

Games like wow give you many ways to make money, drops, crafting, auction house. you can skin creatures as you kill them and sell it, you can mine as you go and sell raw materials, or you can craft armor and sell it, or use it for yourself. GW has none of this, all cash is made from drops and only drops, with a small addition from quests but that is laughable.

Look at the price of minor vigor runes since this update, they're nearly as much as major which is stupid, of radiant of survivor. Kitting out characters and heroes for the casual player ... the CASUAL player darksun, is now very very hard.

You can all yell 'well get a leet build and farm hardmode' all you like. But as an update designed by the devs to help the casual player I shouldn't have to do that, I should be helped by this update and I'm not I'm hindered to the point that there is no fun in the game for me anymore.

So keep telling me you're making so much cash in hard mode because I'm sure you're having a great time. But the view that all other players should be forced to play your way is both selfish and again as mentioned by the devs not the way the game was intended.

I'll say this one more time. Supporting this change has no net effect on the number of players or customers in this game. You are welcome to your opinion, but the fact is that in this situation, for anyone who supports the loot scaling, it really makes no difference. If you support the change, chances are it's not something you would have quit over if you didn't get it. It would be an entirely different issue if it was something that had been asked for repeatedly by the players (yes the players asked for some way to deal with bots, but not this), or if it was a game breaking bug, but the fact is that it's not. Or can you honestly tell me that if loot scaling never occured, that you or others would have walked out on the game? Like I said, no net effect, it's not that your opinion isn't important, it's that in this case, it doesn't change anything. What has changed is the fact that there are those who originally played the game and would have continued to play it, except now with loot scaling, they have decided to leave. Opinions are all well and good, but what it really comes down to is actions. Those who support the loot scaling are not making any change in their actions, those who are against it are making a change. The only question Anet needs to concern itself with at this point is whether or not they can be as profitable with the loss of those players upset by the update.

My point is that we can argue forever about the reasons, the reasons for the update, the reasons against it, the reasons for different people playing, the reasons to stay, the reasons to go, etc., and we will probably never get anywhere. In the end what matters is that players are upset enough over this to leave, and arguing their reasons is not going to change their minds. Their own experience has told them that the game is not as fun as it was, and you can't tell them that their own experience is wrong and you are right, you won't get anywhere. The only way to change their minds at this point is to change their experience.

But if you really support the loot scaling and want your opinion to make a difference, then maybe you and everyone who supports it should go and buy an extra account to make up for the lost customers. Other than that, supporting it makes no change in the end.

Acknowledge my opponents' views? I've done that, over and over. Read the thread start to finish and tell me one opposing point I have not addressed. But when it comes down to it, the bottom line is that all of that hasn't done a thing to change the opinions of anyone who says that they have found the game to be less enjoyable.

you mentioned earlier that the number of negative posters in this thread is significant.

a quick skim shows that the MAJORITY of the negatives post count coming from a very small number of people posting many times.

you at only 30 of the posts are not really close to the leaders who are in the 40+ range.

many in the 20 to 30 range.

NOW CONSIDER THIS.

a small number of hardcore loot grabbers leave and tell their friends.

PCGamer has a beautiful 2 page spread showing the wonders of GWEN along with a glowing preview.

in all honesty i think the leavers will not be noticed any more than any other of the leavers and in most cases probably less.

good nite the litter box needs to be changed and my little master is giving me that feed me look

sigh another point misser...

it's not the hardcore loot grabbers that are unhappy... it's the casual player the one who does the odd bit of farming to suppliment the poor game income by just playing the game. NOT THE HARDCORE FARMER HE IS STILL HAPPY....

please bother to read before posting.

Dont mind Lovi as far as Ive watched he tends to be aggressive and borderline troll his feelings out on the opposition.

As for how word of mouth is the strongest and ironically cheapest form of advertisement this is in fact true.
I believe the view is for every 1 happy customer you have they will tell 2 people of there good experience and recomend you to those 2, but for every 1 bad customer you get they will tell 10 people about there bad experience and recomend to those 10 they avoid you. This is why many successful componies really go out of there way to please the upset over the happy. They know the happy will stay and thus they got that person and all there future business but the upset are the lost income and all companies hate that. You lose there current income they gave you to thrive on AND you lose the income of the other potential customers you could of had but the upset told to avoid.

This is why I think this loot scaling is ultimatly bad for the future of the game.
Does it affect me? No not really, ive been conservative about how I spend my money and thus was able to save up pretty good. Buying a full set of 15K armor is as expensive as im willing to buy and not FOW cause of the price. I manaed to casually work myself into a position where I can live off my funds and wait it out for the rare super loot of l33t skins, big greens, and major saught after mods.
However I would not be able to have this wealth if I was working off the current loot code and ultimatly I would be unhappy. Hell Im taking a tough pill to swallow as is realizing I have to further budget myself cause income is in fact harder to get.

However I do ultimatly worry for the new nd casual player. When I was new 2 years ago it was hard to get workable equipment and it made things hard to borderline unfun but I casually gained more wealth and was able to no longer struggle just to be on par with others. These new and basic casuals now struggle just to even be allowed to deck themselves in there choice of even the cheapest 15K armors and even grab basic neccessity runes placing them in a have not status. A game is ment to be fun not a struggle. We have enough just getting by in life thats why we play games to melt out of the stress of the grind of life and bills and car repairs and what have you.

People shouldnt have to endure a new form of it in GWs trying to figure out how to afford a much needed minor vig run for example. You do this, which A NET has done and you turn people off. And its these upset people we see in a shockingly large number if you think about it that will not buy your future products cause of these recent actions. and that is a lot of lost revenue that will make A NETS pay checks a lil smaller, peoples happy weekend events disapear from the regularity we have, and release of new content.

Considering GW2 is aprx 2 to 3 years away, and with the trend weeve seen with the last few updates to be honest it doesnt make me feel confident that they wll even be able to make a GW2 cause the amount of player base they will have left will be rather small.

Hell I know I was looking forward to GWEN but now im wavering in wondering if I should put that 40 some bucks down on that game or place it somewhere else, and same with GW2. I think that this loot scaling was botced from the start and the threads show that A NET has screwed up and Im watching them with interest to see if A NET is willing to say the real reason why this loot scaling came to be or an oops we screwed up and fix it cause watching the threads and even the in game economics what they said this was for is not happening and is only hurting the people they said this would help and thats down right wrong!

This loot scaling business is bad. Not because it's making farmers pockets slightly less full or because its making it even harder for casual players but because its tearing the community apart like never before. The update to Necros and Mesmers pissed off alot of people but we were able to debate the changes in a much more civil manner. The loot scaling update has changed something that affects every GW player, from the weekend W/Mo to the hardcore 55 farmer, and many are finding this change to be just plain bad.

So why is loot scaling bad? To answer that we have to look at how we get loot in the game.

You get loot by:
-completing quests
-killing monsters
-opening chests
-winning HoH
-playing some awesome games on the Boardwalk

Loot scaling only affects what you get from killing monsters. So from a purely logical point of view you could argue that it affects a relatively small portion of the game. However, we all know that killing monsters is a large portion of many players income. The amount of gold you get from quests is awful and missions in NM don't give you any gold, which is really dumb. The weapons you receive as quest rewards usually aren't appropriate to your level and aren't worth much when you merch them. Heck, most white drops are worth more! Chests are...chancy. Most of the time you get crap and its worth even less than the key you used to open the chest. HoH chests seem to be a law unto themselves and I haven't heard of that many bad drops from them. I dunno about the Boardwalk games. Some people play them for the loot but more play for the afk Lucky/Unlucky action.

Back to killing monsters. So when you kill monsters you can get 1 of 6 things(bosses sometimes drop more than 1 thing as we all know): a weapon drop of random rarity, a collector item(if applicable), gold, crafting materials, armor, or a green drop(if applicable). Knowing that, we go onto the field of battle and expect to enjoy the spoils of war. *lol* You can't expect every monster to drop something but if you clear an entire area you can expect to get drops from about 1/3 of the monsters there. After sifting through your drops maybe 1 will be good enough to keep and the rest go to the merch or maybe you're saving up collector items to get a decent weapon for your toon. Since the amount of raw crafting materials dropping is fairly low you have to salvage what you can from undesirable drops and armor, which end up merched just as often as whites, to keep your stores full. Because you're likely to change armor quite a few times and once you've played for a while you'll see the value in having a max damage range for any weapons you make for yourself. This is what you would have done under the old loot system.

In the new system, greens and rare materials are exempt from scaling. It was a smart move but unlikely to affect most players. What will affect most players is a sudden shortage of common crafting materials. Example, I used a large amount of Wood Planks to make Rolls of Parchment for my Necro's Scar Pattern armor. I had to salvage an enormous amount of drops(I had alot in storage so it was no problem) in addition to buying from the Materials NPC. Now I have just over 100 Wood Planks left. To get back to 250 now, I'd have to buy from the NPC or farm for hours and hope that whatever staffs or bow I salvaged weren't made of Iron Ingots or Bones. Also, collector items were already a chancy drop now they just don't drop. I liked to collect them during my runs to give to poor players or beginners and now even simple philanthropy is impossible for the middle class player(meaning not rich but not poor either).

I imagine that HM players don't have much to complain about. They're still getting decent drops, though still fewer like the rest of us. I'd like to finish all 3 games(Prophecies is my priority) but guess what? All the PuGs are for HM!! I'm an ok player and have hero/henched most of the missions but I like having human players on certain missions because they're capable of doing stuff NPCs can't(i.e. keeping those n00bs Togo and Mhenlo alive!!). I digress. HM players, please try to understand what we NM players are saying. Loot scaling in NM has no purpose, as we don't get the same quality of drops as you do, and has disrupted NM's economy. Because don't doubt that ANet has created a seperate economy by introducing Hard Mode. Just look at the Trade channel at Kamadan. Selling 1337 Sword for 56k +XX ectos! Whisper Me!

To paraphrase from Lyra_song, why not give better rewards for playing the game, the missions and quests?

That would benefit casual players, who not not farm.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

That's all well and good for those who farm ectos and such, but for us "common" folk who have depended on those junk drops to make a little cash for the overpriced events to attain titles such as boardwalk tickets, booze or sweet stuff... it's a severe blow.

Once again we get the short end of the stick all in the name of stopping those damned bots. Heres a clue how to stop them.... ban the IP addresses for a start.... although that may mean shutting down the Korean server...

[QUOTE=Drazaar]hi

parden me while i (by your definition troll again......politely)
that bolded part proves that you are a relative newcomer to the game so i will politely explain something to you.

before the RUNE TRADER AND GUARANTEED RUNE SALVAGE which were bitterly opposed by the farming community both casual and hardcore

paying 1.5k to 5k for a minor was common back then not look how high it has gone at less than 2k.

the highest minor i saw yesterday was 1.6k with most every other rune including sup absorb (270 gold) at under 200 gold.

the highest insignia was 5.5k for the bloodstained.

15k armor is what you work for as a goal after you get the DROK/CHAPTER EQUIVALENT armor not right from the start.

NOTE

i am PVE super casual and i have been hit by every balance nerf or skill nerf from early beta.

my ele is still my fun character to play i just use her differently after the dreaded AOE change.

since i am casual the loss of loot does not bother me and with just over 24 months on my favorite character still have less than 2000 total hours played over 2 years.

i still have my favorite DROK armor and my best weapon is my +5 energy and focus from the Factions crafter.

15k is optional.

runes are dirt cheap compared to what we all had to pay earlier.

That's real funny considering that if you read back a few pages, SWG was exactly the example I used to show how Anet is on the track to kill the game. Sure, SWG still sells, but not nearly like it used to. And the fact is that despite both having "Wars" in the title, Guild Wars is not Star Wars, it was never based on an incredibly successful trilogy of movies that appealed to generations and has had decades to build up a massive loyal following of fans, many of whom will continue to buy anything with the word "Lucas" on it regardless of how poorly managed or badly mishandled it is. Guild Wars does not have the luxury of falling back on such a fanbase. Seriously, if any other game pulled a stunt like SWG did, it would have been offline in months, rather than just suffer a hefty loss of subscriptions.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]And ill politly tell you your completly full of yourself to assume so bodly my time spent in this game.
At 22 months and counting I am by far not new and worked to earn what I have.

And yes 15K is somethign you work for but with the current new loot scaling that goal is much more out of reach for a casual player to borderline impossible.

Some of the easier farming areas, which are prime areas for casuals to learn this aspect so they can save up for there gaols, via mino and vermin farming are no longer profitable at the least. They used to net you 3K on average per run which was worthwhile for a new commer for the effort. Now your lucky to pull out 1K after 2 runs.

This nerf is nothing good for the casual players and really can be very offensive to A NETs casual player base when there trying to pass it off as it is being a good thign when so much evidence shows that no its not.

Can we get some official information on what Anet is doing right now? I'll tell you one thing for sure...

They've been scaling back on all the the items that they have promised they wouldn't scale. I just finished killing 135+ enemies in Hard Mode, without a single rare crafting material, gold item, tome, or other item from the "exempt" list.

/not impressed

In the end, Anet's own metrics will tell the tale. I just hope they are smart enough to figure what they did wrong. Business is simple - You must have customers to survive in business. Anet just lost one (me). Last night I played Gw for one hour trying to hunt Hydras with a party of heroes and henchmen in hard mode. It was frustrating and I only made about 2k in gold after selling my drops. I installed WoW, fumbled around trying to figure out how to play but had loads of fun. The decision is simple although painful for me. I LOVED GW since day one but it is not fun anymore so I will move on. There are other options.

I still think the casual player is the quiet majority in GW. They don't post in this forum, they have no idea how to farm an ecto but they loved the game. I was one of these. I have logged countless hours playing and have enjoyed every minute but I am not l33t. I have only begun to try the UW. I have only gotten on ecto on a drop. The game has been ruined for me.

This tread is a great place to vent and debate but it is really irrelevant. We have no idea how the majority will react. In the end the numbers will speak the truth.

I still hold to my belief that they have ruined the game for the casual player, the casual player was the majority of their customer base, they will loose players in the droves and in the end, they will have to fix the blunder or perish.

Most companies today, realize customer satisfaction is the key to success. There are just to many choices for the consumer.

I can, sort of, understand why they did this but I am just so glad I equipped my heroes before this loot scaling was implemented.

My real complaint is that Anet seem to take the easy route to sort out problems in GW, and also seem to take the opinion that most players will grumble quietly, maybe post on a forum or two and then get on with the more important things in life; work, family……etc.

As I understand it, it was/is the bots causing the problems, not the casual players and yet, once again, it is us that has been hit.

Rather than tackle the problem Anet have screwed up the casual farming for most of us, thanks.

Oh well there’s always WoW.

If you're a casual player complaining about not having enough money then you're trying too hard to get it. I've been working on vanquishing Nightfall (have all of Istan done and one area on the mainland) and so far just doing that I've put over 60P in the account. This doesn't include the lockpicks I've bought or the piece of 15K armor I picked up for my mesmer (he's the vanquisher, I'll let him have a little luxury.) Pick up the drops, merch the crap, sell a couple elite tomes, cash isn't a problem. Seems you just need to play the game and you'll do fine. The fact that people are trying to get rich is what's killing the fun for them.

These results, btw, are with three heroes and 4 henches.

The changes are being good to me, and if they're hurting bots, so much the better for the game as a whole.

[QUOTE]and they have the logs of player behavior.

i disagree completely on that.

the level described all through this is 15k casual as if DROK armor was too trashey to consider.

I DID MY OWN CASUAL TRIAL JUST NOW

lowlands vermin which is the lowest of the low.

results of 20 minutes with an empty inventory no gold and no salvage.

kill till inventory full then go to merchant and sell

442 gold pieces

372 in merchant sales

1 silver dye which i kept but is 190 to sell to dye trader

3.5 fur squares of char hides

814 not counting dye for 20 minutes.

2.4k per hour NOT counting the dye.

2-3 hours farming to get all the runes for at least 2 characters at the current just checked prices at the rune trader.

that also equals 1 DROK 1.5k piece of armor with almost any rune on it as well.

casual is still fine.

15k casual is not casual

Hi, I just wanted to put in my $0.02. This change hasn't affect me personally that much, because I don't play that much anymore, due to the lack of time, among other things. Hence, I would consider myself a casual player. And as such, I have to admit that I can't agree with this change. I think the reasons behind it and the intentions are good, but the implementation leaves something to be desired.

As it is implemented now, it is actually to the detriment of casual players, as it is now harder for casual players to earn the gold they need. I myself am a fairly poor player, in in-game financial terms, about 21k in my storage. So far, I haven't noticed any significant change in terms of the drops I get when I party with other people; however, I have given up on solo-farming. Granted, I don't advocate solo-farming, but sometimes I enjoy it, because I don't have the time to do an entire mission in one sitting, and sometimes I just need the money quick to buy something.

From what I've heard, a lot of people have been put off by this change, and not just the hardcore GW players. A lot of casual players are leaving because of this change as well. For a game that's designed for the casual player, I can't imagine it's great news for ANet/NCSoft. Maybe they have their reasons and/or statistics to back it up, I don't know, but as far as I can see, it's driving away current players and potential future customers.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

In the spirit of sharing thoughts, I feel obliged to share my findings as well.

I used to vermin farm for the 1 set of 15k armor that I'd allow per character, as I'm not the kind of player to allow multiple sets of 15k armor per toon. I'd also vermin farm to get money to buy skills for myself, and help two other guildies who CAN'T be on all the time to farm because of school, work, other commitments, etc. I'd farm to get them 20k or so so that they could at least buy skills or a max set of armor. With the loot scaling update, that's now no longer a possibility. I've been trying to vanquish areas for some money, but I'm lucky to pull out 5k from a run, and have yet to get my first Elite tome. Also, my alliance isn't very large yet, so I don't have the team I need to effectively farm areas for needed gold. We're recruiting now, but that'll take time.

Gaile, and Anet, have said that loot scaling is supposed to help the casual player get money, and we're now supposed to be trading our good drops and such with other players. That tells me that, because they've stated that there will be no auction house in GW1, that I have to waste my time and do something I hate - Spam 'WTS' in major districts. All of this takes more and more time, time that I'd rather be spending out on quests with guildies or doing some AB or other PvP.

I'm willing to ride this out to see if Anet will make some changes to loot scaling, but I'm not holding my breath. It also pains me to admit that I'm not recommending this game to anyone at the moment - but I'm not discouraging it either - all because of this update. This game now takes more time, in my opinion, to get some measure of satisfaction, in regards to wealth, game completion, title grinding, and just about anything else you can imagine. To me, this is in direct contravention to one of the selling points for the game; that you didn't have to grind just to get through the game and such.

In short, I feel the cure is worse than the disease. Anet tried to cure a problem where bots would exploit the benefits of solo farming for RL cash. Gaile has said that the feedback she's received has been more positive than negative, but I'm not so sure that it'll last. It may take a while for the elite farmers to feel the pinch because of the amount of money that's already out there in the economy, but their money ultimately came from those who couldn't farm like they could. It came from people like me, and when we can't afford their wares, they'll start feeling the pinch as well. Likewise, if everyone could farm like they could, they would be getting less money as well because the market would be flush with the same wares.

Ok, that definitely makes me question your bias,(although it could just be bad luck) but I don't make the assumption that casual players never play Hard Mode. How many hrs a week/day is a casual player to you? My friend plays about 6hrs a week max.(only on Fri/Sat at my place) and he's getting his second piece of Vabbian armor, has a 15k set and a luxon set. He has never farmed. EVER. You guys are talking about Rune & skill prices.. I just can't buy it.

You're beating a Strawman. I never said anyone should play in any specific way. Period. Second, this change effect solo farmers. You are saying that the casual player goes out and solo farms to get money.. No. I don't buy it. You are assuming a casual player only plays in a specific way (just like you told me I 'selfishly' was) and that the 'huge' solo farming business is now only producing a 1/4 of what it was.

Are you saying you'd buy a copy of the game for everyone who was opposed to the level cap? This is a silly argument. Every game has people disappointed with it. People leaving is part of the business. You think people are thrilled with the Shaman nerf? Makes the Paragon nerf look tame.

The fact that you make a huge post pointing out all the responses that agree with you. And none weighing the other way. That's complete disregard.
My point: When ANET makes a decision, they need to weigh everything. People leaving the game is not the only factor in the decision making process. I think that's the flaw in what you are saying. This doesn't mean they look and say "some people don't like this.. let's never do it." It means they say "a bunch of people don't like this, but even more do. Lets do it because it attends to other issue we need to fix. Bots, price of rares & materials."

It sucks that people think this is worth leaving over, I wish you didn't. But this just happens in game. The question is weather the bad(people discontent) outweighs the good(people content). THAT's why I think we need to look at both sides.

I certainly agree there are issues (we need auction system, other ways to make $$) but we have to look at it in the middle.. that's why we discuss this.

Loviatar, where are you farming, what mode, and what are you using as weapons, armor, runes, inscriptions.

Tell you what, I challenge you to farm in normal mode most places that casual players have farmed. Hydras outside of Augury Rock, Trolls outside of Droknar's Forge, and minotaurs whereever is best to farm those.

Give it an honest run, meaning see how long it takes you to actually get 5k by only merching your drops.

Then come back and let us know how you did.

I will do the same and post my results.

PS I used to be able to get 5k in about 30mins outside of Augury.

This is exactly why I relisted the posts of those casual players complaining about the update. You choose not to believe that this is the playstyle of many casual players, even when there are plenty of them saying it to your face. If you want to talk about ignoring opposing statements, you had better open your own mind up a bit more.



Don't be ridiculous. I was pointing out the only way that those who support this update could show that support through an economic effect. I'm not expecting anyone to actually do it, it's just what would have to happen for the supporters to balance out the objectors at the bottom line.

I don't play WoW, so frankly I could care less about the Shaman nerf. What does that even have to do with this discussion?


I am not going to argue the same points over and over every time someone new comes to the discussion and doesn't care to read what has already been addressed many times over. Like I said before, read through the thread, read my posts (first one is on page 11), and once you've done that, then tell me what points of yours or others' that oppose mine I have not already addressed. If you do this and manage to find something, I would be happy to discuss it with you. If you don't care to put in that effort, then it's not worth my time to respond.

Once again, the content players on this issue have no impact on Anet's future income, unless you can show me some proof of players who would have left the game if loot scaling had not been implemented. You can look at both sides all you want. People can do "casual tests" all they want. It will not change the minds of those who through their own experience have tried the changes and found them lacking. When this discussion started, we discussed the potential effects on the game in great detail, but it was all hypothetical until it could be put to the test. Now, players have made that test, and we have moved from the realm of a discussion of possibilites to a realm of firsthand experience. No amount of discussion or debate is going to convince someone who has seen with their own eyes and made their own decision that the update is wrong (or right for that matter) that what they have seen and experienced is not the way things really are. My point is that at this time, discussion is moot, the players have the evidence before them through playing the game itself, not by reading opinions on the forum, and they will judge for themselves whether they will stay or go.

[QUOTE]NORMAL MODE

the run i posted was typical so simply use that.

nolani back to the courthouse.

nolani exit get the gargoyles than hook back right instead of crossing the bridge with the gargoyles on the other side of the bridge.

hook around to the left where more gargoyles are along with the 3 stormriders close to that bridge.

continue straight ahead through the arch to the char instead of left through the arch to the gargiyles.

follow the groups of char cleaning out all including the ones in the tar streambed area.

go back to the next bunches of char close to the uplands? zone area than head for the courthouse until your 20-22 minutes are up or your inventory is full.
character is elemonk with 39 skill points unspent and mostly basic skills WITH NO ELITES EQUIPPED
armor is 20 month old DROK
BASIC MINOR RUNES WITH MAJOR FIRE AND FIRE HEADPIECE
WEAPON IS FACTIONS CRAFTER +5 WAND DROK +12 FOCUS

I CHEATED BY USING FLAME JINNS HASTE FOR SPEED BUT THAT IS WHAT I GOT

I was hoping to step out of this topic since it seems to be retreading old ground, but I want to make one quick point:
This is a bit of a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of insufficient statistics. The players who are content with the update are much less likely to post, because their enjoyment of the game was not interrupted. The posters who are inclined to post here have a heavy bias toward being dissatisfied with the update, so looking at this thread alone is a highly inaccurate representation of the game's population as a whole.

Well, only 1 percent of the anti-farmers post here (casual players farm as well, so it's not casual players vs farmers), but 1 percent of the farmers post here as well. After all, let's not forget how much people left the game after Nightfall came out, and with this update. I'd say that more people were farming than people were anti-farming. (Anyone who beat the game more than 7 times would like to do something else than storyline... Unless you dislike change ALOT, and nothing else can be done without cash, so people NEED to farm)

Most people already gave up on Guild Wars. The farmers still posting here are darned stubborn still believing in Guild Wars.

Don't look at the topic, look at the game. I've never seen most outposts so empty, guild so empty, friends list so empty, etc. Well maybe I only had strongfriends who already beat the game 7 times, but I think that even if they beat it 4 or 5 times, they'd be bored of Guild Wars now already.

DoA is a ghost town post loot scaling, I was shocked when I went there last night. I dont understand how ANet doesnt see the negative effect loot scaling is having, there are MORE farming bots in more outposts (citadel, bergen etc.) than pre-loot scaling.

Im starting to buy into the conspiracy theory, ANet wants bots for the profit of new accounts re-bought by the bot farmers after theyve been banned. They lost alot of "legit" players to this update & gained sooo many more botters.

I'm a "casual player" (oh no, those words again!) who always plays with a full team (usually hero/hench), and the change in loot isn't affecting me nearly as much as the point above. I'm used to seeing a handful of guildies and as many or more folks on my Friends list and/or in Alliance chat when I sign on, but lately, it's been very slim indeed.

To give the benefit of the doubt, it is exam/graduation time for the students in our midst, but in my guild, at least, the vast majority of people are out of school, and that should not be the issue. Among the guildies and alliance members I talk to the most, there was quite a bit of grumbling about this change, and we're not talking heavy farmers or power traders here. Most of them have given Hard Mode a try, and still have not been impressed. All of this is fairly disheartening for me, not because I'm getting less loot, but because my friends aren't playing as much anymore. For every player who rage-quits or drifts away in dissatisfaction, I wonder how many there are who follow them just because the fun social aspect of the game is gone for them...

Since the change I decided to try farming again.

I am a casual player. I play for fun and as time allows. I farm to make money to support my characters, to gather up crafting materials, and collect holiday items. If I can farm anyone can. The big problem with the loot change is that it is a limiter. It may temporarily hamper the bots but like always they will over come any obstacle that is placed in their path. The loot change only affects real players the boters have all the time in the world what does it matter to them if it takes a few more runs to gather gold. As for real players and especially casual ones we have limits to time. Now it will take 8 time longer for a solo farmer to gather loot. I play in teams to complete missions and quest. I farm for my own personal interest and at my own pace, so I like to do it alone. There is also something about being able to solo things that groups have a hard time with.

I think A-net has a great game and I enjoy all of the events and holidays the put together, but the spin they put on the loot change is just that spin. They tried to make it out that this would benefit people and hamper the bots. However it will only hamper people because the bots could care less if it takes 4 runs or 32 runs to gather up the gold they need.

My point is that if the real players have the means to make money they will not buy gold. How much time does A-net use trying to find ways to stop bots and farming that could be used to improve the game? How much of that time could have gone toward creating an auction house for us casual players to have a place to "trade our high end goods" as GG stated.

Casual players do not have time to set around spamming WTS. I know that you are encouraging selling to players instead of to the merchant but give us the means to do so. Give us a place where we can drop off items we want to sell. The sells can be done like eBay. The sellers sets a buy it now price, a bid starting point and the house has a set number of days it will stay on auction. At the end of the auction the seller can sell or refuse if the price does not meet their expectations. However; there should be limits on how long an item can be up for auction so that people do not use the auction houses as a storage shed.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]I've done a couple of small (statistically insignificant) tests, which tie in with Loviatar's assessment of how much money you can get from farming the Lowlands.

I'm still going to twist this into another criticism of the update though Over the last couple of weeks I've done 4 or 5 vermin runs in the Skyway, and the drop rate seems to average around 1 in 4 (and I haven't seen any purples, golds, or Shredder's talons). The rate was also very consistent over the runs (i.e. always around 1 in 4).

I've been out twice (for around ten minutes each) in the Lowlands area that Loviatar was describing and both times the drop rate was better than 1 in 2.

Given the small number of tests I've made the difference could be down to the randomness mentioned in Gaile's first post, but it doesn't seem like it.

I get the impression that the drop rate varies on a number of factors other than party size, although I have no clue what those factors are. ANet may put this all down to preventing bots, but I find it frustrating not being given the details of the change. I'm not saying I want to see the code, but enough information to actually make some informed decisions would be good.

I think we all get the point of you listing the posts. The problem is where you say "The only truly decisive measure we have of the effects of these changes is the net effect on the customer base."
Guess what? If we only look at the opposing view, you don't actually see the net effect. Quote as much as you want, but if it's a minority, why should it be headed?
I'm ignoring? No, I'm suggesting we show ANET as much as we can, good & bad. But I don't go around saying "Well, I think we can all agree that only the people who hate this effect ANET's decisions."

You suggest I go buy GW because it's the only way to "balance out the objectors", then when I suggest it for a different issue, it's ridiculous? Maybe you're beginning to realize how silly the suggestion was in the first place.
I can support this update by saying on the forum I'm fine with it. ANET then takes the info here and decides weather this was a good move or not.

My goodness man. Do you even read?
"Every game has people disappointed with it. People leaving is part of the business." It's just an example.


You don't need to. I don't mind that you argue points of contention. I do mind when you make posts saying "ok, these are the views that REALLY matter" That's why I said something then. never mind that a host of the views don't give any real data.

This is where it falls apart. Content players can give ANET feedback saying "this or that works, keep up the vision you are following".

Say I & 10 other people left because I hated the fact that sapphires were 7k. That doesn't mean that other people shouldn't point out WHY a they should be expensive. And WHY they agree with the prices. Then ANET can decide weather they should change the prices.

Bottom line: the reason I say we need both views up here is to give ANET a gauge to decide weather this was I viable choice for what they want to accomplice. You argued you points, that's great.

Is it just me, or did you just write a 10 paragraph manifesto about how your views, which conflict with his views, really matter (more than his)?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

It's just you. I never said my views about loot scaling matter more than his. You are completely manufacturing that for the sake of winning an argument. (Which you've done before.)

There is a world of difference between pointing out why you do/don't support something, and saying that, really, your opinions on game mechanics/changes are the only ones that should be heeded.

Hm. Your use of the singular "your opinions" may not be teeeeeeechnically correct. I recall him quoting a dozen players who agree with him.

Lets see, moving on, you told him that he selectively grabbed people who agreed with him, and he invited you to do the same. Well I am looking back as best I can on this thread, and I think you might be hard-pressed to come up with the same number of posters who support the loot scaling to quote? Maybe that is why you demurred from answering his challenge?

I dunno bro. I am going to side with Lyra. (who likes attributions for her comments) I agree that this does not help or hurt the casual player, which directly conflicts with your view.

So, now according to your script, this is your big chance to tell me that your views are the only ones that matter.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

semantic dancing again.
dozen players who agree with him = his "opinions". I'm sorry i don't write text books like you.
Why would I want to do that?
People who are content with what is going on,tend not to complain about it. I'm not worried about people posting negatively about the scaling, the posts are already here! Disagreeing is fine. That's why I keep saying, for the millionth time(oh yeah, I don't really mean 1 million, it's a saying) I would rather just continue discussion instead of trying to say this or that is the real deal.
I'm not concerned with his "challenge" because All it says it "IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE, THIS IS THE REAL TRUTH." I would rather just continue discussing reasons we don't/do like it, so ANET can look here and hash it out.
According to my script? Which part did I say I wanted to make my views the definitive one? Oh yeah, you made that up too, I forgot.

It directly conflicts my view? How?

Tobasco, you really need to stop just making stuff up.

Umm..... are you sure you are playing Guild Wars? You cannot earn more in Hard Mode than was previously possible before the so called "scaled looting". Furthermore the amount you earn has NOTHING to do with whether or not you get rewarded more for challenge. If you were referring to the monetary reward for finishing quests, that's so minor as to be completely irrelevant. Beyond that, bots are NOT having a harder time. Go look at the Granite Citadel sometime. As many or more than ever there. You ever hear one of those bots say "Boy I'm tired. I guess I'll give up farming for the day."? They may be getting less per run, but they raise the price of online gold and still make the same amount of real money per day probably, so there's absolutely no incentive for them to quit doing it.

What's the definition of a cool item? And how are you more likely to get one now? If you couldn't afford 100K +20 ectos for something, how would you now suddenly be able to afford the 100K +2 ectos the same thing might cost now? You could just do what some of us do when we want a "cool" item. We find out where it drops and go play there until we get one. Oops, that's kind of like *gag* farming isn't it?



Again, what game are you playing? Stability is usually defined by a minimal amount of variation. Since the update the economy has been the most unstable I've ever seen it. At one point I think ectos were around 17K, then down to 5 or so and then back up to 7 or 8 recently I think. How does that equal stability?

No one has yet explained just how anyone who couldn't afford to purchase cool items would suddenly be able to do that now since the non-farmer has no appreciable change to his income and still has the same level of expense.

If they want to play in HM, then they must finish the game first to get the extra chance of rare drops, and even then most rares are absolute crap that you couldn't sell for 2K if you spammed WTS all day. And if someone wants to get the "cool" items on his own after finishing the game -- well, guess what? He's going to have to FARM to get it unless he gets very lucky and it drops as he's doing a mission in that area.

So, as many people have already asked, exactly how does this last update even remotely help the casual player? We get how it harms the human solo or small group farmer, but how does it help those who just played the campaigns through in full groups?

Tabasco

You can go back to arguing with Blackbird now. If I have bothered you by pointing out that your posts are ironic in the pot and kettle variety, then I apologize. But it is still funny.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I do. I don't know what to tell you. The drop rate of several things is increased in HM.

I should have said rare. HM makes rares (and good ones to from my experience) drop 3x as much.


What I mean by stable is more reasonable prices. Things always fluctuate after big changes, it just happens. Even if it's only based on perception. So I don't know if we can judge it yet. If it stays high for months, yes I would question the point of thi.

Ok, this seems to be (as far as I can tell) the crux of what you are asking.
First it doesn't just harm the human solo group, it harms bots. Their income just goes down. Someone recently said the GW gold prices went up, that's the only evidence I have that it is effecting them, but I can't be sure of that. But the idea makes sense.
Those who simply play through campaigns in smaller groups (which I think ANET has noticed as the majority) will have NO DIFFERENCE in drops. But will see lower prices on RUNES, RARE CRAFTING MATERIALS, and ITEMS sold by players.

I don't think it's the big "sky is falling" thing we think it is.


Man, you reach for anything you can, don't you? I guess it happens when you talk nonsense.
You point out nothing but your inability to prove anything. I love how you ask me to take Blackbird's "challenge", but can't answer a single thing I ask. Ironic? I realize you have no way to actually prove anything you say so you need to think up jabbing quips and beat on strawmen.

You can delete the doubled post, fyi...

wait so shouldn't this bring the price of an icy dragon sword up snice its a blue and it was kinda alrdy hard to farm wouldn't this just make the chances of droping an IDS less?

I'm a casual player of GW now, as in i don't play anymore.
I log in occaionally to keep in touch with friends but thats about it.

This whole things feels more like a alpha test for GW2 components.

I have lost interest in GW because the amount of different playstyles I want to play have been lessened with each of these major updates, going all the way back to AoE.
Put simply, some of the ways I enjoyed playing GW have been either removed of made to be less fun for me.

I do not enjoy major functionality changes every 3-6 months, this implies that the original product was broken and putting a spin on it saying anything else is just dis-honest. Skill adjustments are obviously needed on a regular basis to keep the meta-game from being stagnant.

PS- Why does everyone assume that bots are the primary source of income for the gold sellers? Bots running 24/7 can't keep up with the income potential of a power trader. Oh, and on an auction house, that is a primary tool of power traders.