Killcount In Ha: "Looking Into Further Changes"? I Think Not

/clap

Nothing else needs to be said.

This is EXACTICALLY why 3-way killcount should be eliminated in HA. Because of idiotic comments and playstyles like this.

Agreed, and to be honest I would take anything over kill count right now.

Riiight, Alleji, and we all know the HA community was all buttercups and rainbows before we "broke it." *searches wildly for a rolls eyes emote* Settles for a smilie.

The HA community is not "The HA community;" it's really many smaller groups, call it "The HA communities," if you will. All players have a strong opinion about what's good and what's right and what needs to get changed--sooner rather than later--in Heroes' Ascent. Keep in mind we listen, but keep in mind that the player base will not make the final design decisions. The design team is looking at HA, and I do believe, as I said earlier, that changes will come. But you should know that the changes may not be 100% what you're wanting; not 100% what you think is best. That's because there are tens of thousands of other HA players, and every one of them has an opinion, and there honestly isn't a single "This is absolutely the right way to go" path.

If the needed changes were easy to settle upon, they would have been made a long time ago. The changes that were made months ago were at player suggestion. The changes back to 8v8, and other changes, also were at player suggestion. And the ultimate design changes will also be suggested by players, but by all players with a wide variety of opinions. (You can see the differences of opinion in this very thread.) In the end, some sort of middle ground will be sought, and captured, to make HA the best that it can be for the majority of players.

Hi Gaile,

It is not that you guys broke it, but the skills were broken in the first place when this game was release on April 28, 2005. Do you remember when healing seed & life transfer lasted for 20+ seconds? Mesmer skills such as Energy drain and Energy tap can drain 35 + energy from a target, and lets not get into IWAY, the spamming of hundreds of spirits, and the days of smiting, etc etc … (and the skill abuse goes on and on-- LOLs @ NightFall skills)

When the game was released, people were excited; hence there were so many players in HA. Months after months of skills abuse (skills imbalance +overpowered skills), Anet finally realized that these skills were causing a major problem, and nerfed it.

The first batch that was fed up with this was the Koreans (majority of them have given up on HA and Guildwars altogether), followed by everyone else that has moved on to GvG, and the result of this is the small HA community you are referring to Gaile.

However, after 2 years of rants and rave from the PvP community, this game actually looks more balance than what it used to be. Unfortunately, no game is perfect, but you guys have listened to the community and have done your best to fix the broken skills you guys created.

Of course, I have given up on HA already when my friend introduced me to the thrill of chest running. Yes, I am now 100% buttercups and rainbow!! oHHh yeaaaaaaaaa~


/agree

Edit: You need to come chest run with me tonight bro.

Reverting HA back to the OLD will do nothing good for it. It probably would be even more stagnant than it is now with kill count. There are just too many newly introduced defensive skills that would make holding just as bad as 3,2,1. With all these new skills I always thought a bunch should be withheld from certain PVP game play based on the area. Since that won't happen why be bothered with these threads? ANET knows what has been done to GW, and what needs to be done, GW2...

thats all good with me lol, lets find the middle ground:
600 people vote no to kill count
6 people vote yes to kill count
....

I haven't been through HA in months, but I will say this:

When anyone from ANet points out that the vocal majority isn't right, or that you are a single voice amongst many and that there's no "right way," what they mean to say is, "You might be right, but we're sure that we are." You won't get much of anywhere just pointing out the obvious, because the obvious is mere speculation in the eyes of the self-informed.

i was a patient man before i played this game, now i fear my powers of patience have reached superhuman proportions! hehe

i guess for those who didnt have patience before they played this game, definately have some now!

if only i could apply this same patience to my lovelife... ANYWAY back to studying!

on topic...

Anet, before you make any decisions on HA, could you pretty please let us know what kind of ideas you are considering? I can assure you that if you put forth kill count to us before it was implemented we could have avoided these few months of frustration.

Another benefit of revealing the possible new changes to us before implementation is that we will share some responsibility over what happens with you guys. Instead of people then posting accusations that you guys ''suck'' if anything goes wrong, everyone will have to remind themselves that they had some part to play in the results or at least we had the opportunity to identify a problem before it was put into the game.

a big issue for me and i think many other HA'ers is that the whole concept of the kill count in a three way fight is bad and if we knew about it before it was implemented we might have been able to tell u guys to avoid it.

but then again, everything is clear as glass in hindsight.

just a suggestion of mine... ive posted some ideas on alternative map mechanics in the HA poll thread if you are interested...

anyway i really must get back to my revision. exam tomorrow!

lorekeeper

another good way to avoid bad updates is DO NOT MAKE IT DOUBLE FAME OR DOUBLE FACTION. this way we can avoid the pver who have no idea how to pvp come in and make HA SEEM like a success when it's really not. If there is going to be a update. simply say new mechanics in HA this weekend and don't try to promote it. people who actually care will try to find out. people who don't care at all shouldn't find out.

? Izzy seemed to do that though on a radio station, and why is it you keep on claiming kill count has been rather succesful when clearly no one else seems to agree with this. That seems to be rather dismissive to me sorry.

? again. But you dont even need to look very deep into HA to find the main problems with it. Also, 12 months almost before you fix problems i think is just sadly too long. We are aware that you have more than one obligation but i feel that is no excuss for leaving HA in the state which you put it in for so long. Its like almost saying, i have an obligation to lay my bed so because of it im not going to do any house work for 5 months. Its just doesnt cut it. I would also like to comment on the point you made about carrying out some tests and listerning to players. If i were honest with you, those test i wouldnt even say you could count them as tests. 6v6 and 8v8 for example, when you brought 8v8 back you brought with it kill count which no one asked for on the test weekend.

Therefore the test was made invalid because people came on for the first day, saw you hadnt done what they asked for and left again. Next, players asked for the removal of 6v6 and it took very long for that to come into effect, and players asked for 8v8 with no kill count. Never saw that happening. Basically, yes you spent time on HA but you went about it all wrong ignoring the advice of your players. All the changes and tests you did amounted to really nothing as look at where we are now.

The return of 8v8 was not based on the tests i believe as if you saw infact less people were playing 8v8 during that period than 6v6 with a record number of 2 districts at peak times sometimes. Its was due to the fact players still campaigned for 8v8 because they knew 8v8 with no kill count would rock. If you have seen or not on other threads on the HA section in relation to the even, many players did not play HA during the event because it still sucked. You basically spent time on HA and thats all. No one asked you to, all we asked for was the removal of kill count and 8v8 with stable mechanics untill you figure something out like kill count so this is no reasonable excuss to put it lower on your list i feel.

And how much patient do we have to have, i had patients, alot of it infact but that all evapourated after 6 months of anets neglection in terms of what the player majority wanted for HA. I have a question for you Galie, do you honestly think its fair for players to be waiting almost 12 months for simple basic changes to be done to HA. Its not like were asking you to give us the world or something. It was a simply basic update, its like a child asking his father for water and the father says have patients when he has a whole bucket full of it.

Well exactly, it was all buttercups and rainbows and we even got free grass and land with it too. HA was basically perfect, although not as elite as the propchie days it was still very good with factions. Skill was promoted alot, 80 percent skill 20 percent build. When anet joined the scene it became 90 percent skill 10 percent build.

I never had to come onto the forums to complain because i often found if a problem arrose anet fixed it or players worked and countered it. You could actually learn from HA, the more you played the more you learnt, the learning curve was never ending especialy with an ever changing meta. But then Anet came along *disapointed smily*
Good intentions, bad results, denial and betrayal and thats how we end up with the HA we know to day.

So why the need for change when something which was here worked if you know you wont be able to please everyone. Wouldnt that be the official middle ground? Ye of course there are many HA players, but you cant say this theorm applies when a majority of them say 9000 out of the 10000 want kill count dead and other things back like alter capping. Its like saying 7/8 ths of a country vote for a Conservative goverment and 1/8 vote for a Democratic one. We dont go, oh lets find the middle ground and so elect some different leader.

Your clearly not going to be pleasing anyone. This is exactly what anets problem is, because they believe player oppinion is almost never correct they assume the right way to go is not the right way to go, izzy clearly showed this when he was interviewed on that radio station a while ago. It also depends what you class as a HA player, someone who does HA casually or someone whos hardcore HA. This theory obviously appears to work wonders as it certainly drove many HAers out of HA, am i wrong?

No, the middle ground will be sort for the minority of players because if you look. Although many players like those on this forum and the HA section have varying ideas they all have similarities such as get rid of kill count. Bring back alter capping and so on.

This is probly why you implimented 6v6, because it seemed to be the middle ground as so many people got it wrong saying oh you have RA you have GVG so have a 6v6 arena. Fact is, it does not please the majority it just pleases the minority and i believe that is something that will not change. Also, the changes would be easy to settle upon but anets making it seem like it will not be and thats where frustration comes in from players. When 6v6 first came out we all asked for 8v8 back.

That came 9 months later. When kill count came, we all asked for Alter capping back or kill count to be removed. These changes which are on such high demand dont seem hard to impliment to me to be honest as they obviously get implimented eventually so making a descion should not at all be hard it should just be alot faster.

One last thing, i was just curious as to why it has taken so long for the HA community to get any information from anet regarding the current state of tombs. Many players seem to have got the impression you have just ignored us and avoided us so i just wanted to clear this controvousy up and ask basically if there were any reasons for this great wall of silence which has grown between the HA community and anet. Almost like stalin and the iron curtain.

Oh i love melodrama. Wheres the popcorn? Seriously folks....comparing Anet to Stalin...

All this self-deprecation and "oh pity me, im a HAer, and Anet is mean to me" bullshit needs to go.

Mistakes were made, mistakes will continue to be made.

The only way the relationship between Anet and its players will thrive is if its a give and take.

Anet is not your slave. Anet is not subject to your every whim. If anyone is the dictator, its US. We, the players. Anet bows to us. They coddle the players and take the time to listen to even the stupidest ideas. -.-

Relatively speaking, it was. Of course, HA wasn't perfect, but it certainly was in a much better state than it is now.

And what relevance does this have? Yes, "the HA community" is not absolutely unified. But are you trying to say that there is some large unseen majority in "the HA community" that I'm not aware of because I only know a small part of it from the inside?

That is not true. When I actually used to be an active member of that community, I'd say I was exposed to the bigger part of it one way or another. Outside the group of players I played with on a regular basis, I chatted with people in ID1 and faced many of the same teams in halls every night. Sometimes I pugged during a time of day when I don't normally play and talked to different people and faced different teams in HoH. I also used to spend a lot of time in the HA section of this forum and read other forums, before they died out. You can't raise any kind of "limited exposure" or "fractured community" arguments against that.

And everybody agrees on some points. For example, I've only ever met a handful of people who liked 6v6 (and out of those, most weren't HA regulars). Right now, I don't see anyone who likes kill count, other than Syra, and few people who like relics in HoH. Yet, there is no easy or clear solution.

I agree with 100% you on that one, though. This forum really needs a rolleyes smiley.

Vanquisher title is more up my alley, tbh :P

In my opinion however, kill count maps are the lesser problem, skill balancing is a large issue right now. Three times this weekend My teams have fought a 20 minute match on burial mounds or underworld vs some really decent rt spike team (man that build is defensive, though most teams suck and get rolled), we lose, and we catch up to them by unholy temples, and man do we roll them 3-0 on the relic run because they arent prepared for a relic run.

This wouldnt be a huge problem either if there were no skips, because most non-balanced teams would never get to the gold maps, and almost never make it to halls.

/end rant
Stop skips
Balance skills
Do whatever you want with the mechanics, I just play balanced and adjust for the maps.

This is a little off topic, but along HA lines, is there anyways to make rank mean a little more something? I mean overtime people will be getting higher ranks and so on and so forth, but now with the double fame weekends coming and going, a bambi and even a wolf mean dittily squat.

I'm just wondering if there is anything Anet could do to maybe give rank more meaning?

New skills that make holding worse? The paragon skills were nerfed, maybe anet should actually balance the game instead of destroying game modes to cover up imbalances.

And how many more classes and skills must continually be nerfed before you realize that that game format itself is broken?

Every skill in the game ten times over. If you actually would have played halls, you would know that after the paragon nerf, holding was fine.

Refresh my memory, before 6v6 was implement, what was the most pressing HA issue?

ai... ah... ai... aiway? beee...bbb.... bspike holding? rann.... rank discriminations?

eh... what mechanisms?

Gimmick builds.

Would you be willing to say that the mechanics of the various playstyles of HA lends itself to fostering gimmick builds (pre 6v6), just as the current mechanics are fostering even more gimmick builds?

Gimmick builds are present in all forms PvP not just HA, almost all objectives can be gimmicked.

Gimmicks will always exist, all that is required to deal with them is skill balance, and minor changes. Not massive game mode destroying kill count like changes.

Even balanced is a gimmick atm with killcount because you have to run an extraordinarily offensive build, almost always with a snarer, if you want to win. Now, with certain NF elites (I don't think I need to name them) this means you're going to end up with X number of fire eles, one water snare, 3 monks, and some warriors. REALLY intrepid teams might bring a.... MESMER! When balanced is a gimmick, you know that something is really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up.

Why are you posting on this thread? You have NO IDEA the problems of HA, you don't play HA (at least I hope you don't with the ignorant comments you've made), and you obviously do not grasp the play styles that HA has. I don't go posting in a petition to change Hard Mode, please don't go posting in a thread you have no idea about.

To Gaile: If you took a poll (in-game) of EVERY casual HA player, I would highly doubt that a good amount (10-20%) would want kill count to stay.

Personally i found the later incarnations of IWAY fairly "balanced", although im sure a lot of people will disagree with me.

I do agree that 3 way kill count sucks. Killcount, if anything should always be 1 on 1.

However, i do agree with the direction Anet is going with HA, with adding new gameplay modes.

The old King of The Hill altar cap format was flawed in that there was really only 1 objective. Theres only 1 way to win. The objective wasnt even to CAPTURE the altar. It was to be the last one in control of the altar when the timer ran out.

I do understand the fun in the frenetic, fast paced, last minute capture/interrupt of a capture. It is very exciting.

However...It doesn't lend itself to so called "high end pvp" when its really just mayhem. Oh and the EoE bombs....oh those were so much fun.

My favorite King-of-the-hill formats are the ones where the capture point changes. Capture the hill, then it switches to another one somewhere else on the map. Another style is "Double domination" from UT2K3-4 where theres two spots and your team must occupy both spots for a certain amount of time. Another style would feature 2 active out of 5 points to capture, and strategy would be either split to capture 2 or swarm to capture 1. And so on and so forth.

Theres so many variations to king-of-the-hill. Guild Wars got the crap "Lets make a pile of corpses in the middle where wells, wards, AOE and traps own the ghostly" version.

How are you supposed to be the last one in control without capturing the altar?

Not mayhem. Murderball and killcount is mayhem, altar capping took coordination and skill, even when running lame ass gimmick builds.

I think you mean Guild Wars got the crap lets make a pile of corpses where AOE and spikes have to be run to produce these piles, A.K.A. killcount. Altars were not mayhem or random kill-everything matches at all.

I agree on killcount. Disagree on altar matches. Since we fundamentally disagree on that issue, theres nothing left to discuss.

I just love how every thread about HA eventually grows into a flamefest...

Hmm, what can we do to help?

I know, let's talk about rank discrimination!
LOLOLOLO r3 NUB STFU&L2P

QFT i agree with u, this is the cliosed u can get to balanced in the curent HA format if u want to survive killcounts..

everything is a gimmick after a wile.. Don’t understand how people keep on trying to prove the difference between whats a gimmick and whats not...

I have to point out that gimmick builds usually are a build that
1) Everyone and thier little sister run

2) Do a LOT better on some map objectives, but are total crap on the others
(I love losing to a team in UW, only to meet them in unholy temples/sacred temples and roll them 3-0 cause they dont know wtf to do on a relic run, or the case with gimmicks, are unable to keep up with a balanced runner team)

3) More often than not speced only to a couple of the HoH win conditions, and utility skills are added around the team to help get to HoH, but this is usually a waste (see rt spikes on relic runs yea its funny trying to watch a guy with only pious haste get a relic more than 5 ft from the base)

4) I forgot, its not important

---------------
Balanced teams on the other hand
1) Lots of people try to run, and fail miserably (free fame ftw)

2) Are prepared to deal with all map objectives everywhere (though some more than others admitedly, while kill count does offer difficulty when we get ganked, its easy enough to run past some spike team that you always see (Thank god for inventing rt spikes, so easy to snare and run past them)

3) Oh, this is important, balanced teams usually arent around to farm UW fame, I'll admit to only playing B-spikes until I quit GW some time ago, and more often than not, if we didnt skip a relic run, it was back to UW for us, gg that sucks. Then again, if we skipped the relic runs, we usually took halls once or twice. (the only motivation really for running Bspike was to take halls)

I love playing relic run on balanced teams, usually my groups get to courtyard before we face a really good gimmick or balanced team, then its hard. (It's easy to tell when someone running a gimmick knows how to play it, then your life is going to suck for the next 10 mins or so)

4) Ah I forgot again, maybe there is no 4


--------------------------
It's probably not too aparant, but the difference between a gimmick team and a balanced team is skill balance, both player skill and skillbar skills. Most balanced teams are forced to take at least 1 AoE character to be able to rack up enough kills on broken tower from farming the noob team. But if you dont see the difference, here is one gaping huge difference.

Gimmick builds require a few skills to work JUST so the rest of the build can be broken and abused
For Example
1) Rt spike ---> no vital weapons up = GG
2) Spiritway --> no EW = no energy = GG
3) SFway -----> no fire attunment = funny GG
4) Fearmeway -> Warrior hate of any kind = gg

Balanced builds will 95% of the time have SOME way of dealing with those teams, between disruption, enchantment removal, water eles, anything. The good gimmick builds spec for contigencies, however these are few and far between and usually arent enough.

Gimmick builds just run with what they got, and hope for the best. usually they have enough dmg/pressure to not even care about it, and kill neway (this is what players call unbalanced, an example would be Type 1 Magic the Gathering, you either play blue control decks with Force of wills, or you play a turn 1 deck and hope they dont counter your spell, with some variations)


/start rant
Skill balances please
Do what you feel like with map objectives
Do something about skips please.

You may think these varriations are good but the majority think they suck. Hum i wonder who anet should go with, the casual pvper who belongs to a minority or the majority of hard core pvpers. Its like me asking for guildwars to remove some pvers farming place and replace it with a longue, yes i know which is what im highlighting. It is meer utter stupidity.

The question i will now give you which so many times you have given us. So why bother with HA if you didnt like its original fundimental concepts? When you clearly know what your on about because you obviously are ignorant in relation to HA. Come back to me, thank you come again.

Thank you Gaile for coming right out and stating these things. You guys do great work. You really do. You are constantly delivering enhancements/improvements WHILE actively working on the next release (GWEN/GW2). As someone who manages technology projects for a living, I know how complicated it can be to juggle new/changing requirements and maintain a high level of quality in your releases.

The guru community needs to be reminded that the ANet dev team is not at their beck and call and are not their personal servants. We need to instead be thankful that you make such an effort to stay in touch with our ideas/feedback and incorporate that into your future plans. Providing constructive criticism with solid reasoning to back it up instead of whining and complaining is the best way to make our voice heard.

Keep up the good work ANet!

I find it funny how all these people still believe taking away kill count will make HA any more enjoyable than it currently is. If you think this way, you truly have no idea wtf you're taking about nor truly realize how borked the game is in relation to the mechanics and the amount of troubled skills. How about you put efforts into discussing different gameplay features/mechanics that might be better suited? Even then it's a waste of time, like it will happen anyways. Beating dead horses here.

No one said they were are personal servants. All we did was ask for something which clearly we are right to ask for being the majority want it and it is what is best for HA. Give honour to whom honour is due, anet dont deserve a thanks because they havent honestly done anything worthy of it. Back in the days when anet was at its prime making sure HA owned it was then i would say good job anet. But their proformance up on now has really been cringe worthy hence why we have no reason to say thanks because if i recall they have yet to do anything for us. Its like saying i do a test and get an F when i am ment to get an A. Then everyones like well done well done, it defeats the whole purpose.

Also, infact i donno where you have been recently but anet have not been making an effort to stay intouch with our ideas / feedback and incorporate it into their furture plans. Thats why the last time i heard any information from anet on the HA section of the forums was erm like how long ago. Also if this statement where true, why was it after 9 months we finaly got HA removed but oh look we keep kill count. It doesnt seem that they have been incorperating what we have said into their plans because other wise kill count would have been gone by now, infact even with 6v6. Stuff which izzy has said also leads me to believe this is not true because he claims their is no sound voice from the pvp community (as stated in the radio interview) basically implying, yo HA community were not going to listern to you because we think your ideas are not the way to go, therefore we will rather do what we want. I think such statements speak for themselve. I guess the saying actions speak louder than words is flawed because obviously the words are doing the speaking here.

I posted this in the killcount poll, but it actually belongs in here as this is more of a 'suggestive' sort of post. (even tho its not in sardelac)

Anyway
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0152771&page=2


Yea sure early killcount objective will let SFway and AoE way be predominant in the first 3 maps, u will hardly see good ones past that. A-net clearly likes the new objective, they just need to implement it better. And make some incentive to not wait until 2 minutes remaining mark.

Btw to those that think Anet is NOT looking closely at HA, they are, but do you have any idea how crappy it is to edit code. Writting code isnt so bad, editing code you have to know the whole thing inside and out, and u have to know chaning this thing wont screw up that thing.

Its gets difficult when your team size exceeds 10.

Not to mention testing, I feel sorry every time they have to test skill balances, so many hours spent on tha tjust to have the community flame them.


In anycase, they are busy developing the technologies they will need for GW2, when they get to the pvp aspect of GW2 development, expect to see a lot of updates in only a few month inteverals, I suspect it wont be long now since they are done with the hard mode update, and the ATS is under way.

Well heres the flaw in your argument. The majority is not always right.
I don't care if 99% of people agree on something. Some ideas are just bad ideas.

You ever heard of lemmings?

That isnt to say, I agree with keeping Kill count. I think the 3 way kill count is stupid and a flawed design. Just like the single altar cap.

0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Guild Wars caters to many player types in PvP and PvE. Casual and Hardcore. Anet will make the decision based on the median.

Also.

I love how everyone keeps telling me im ignorant. Its hilarious, and puts a smile on my face, especially when people keep putting words in my mouth which i never said.

Im a very open minded person, especially with people who can hold an argument. Calling me names is pointless and contributes nothing.

Strawmen. Red herrings. Ad hominem. Keep it up.

These words in a HA thread? Are you high?

Wow are you on drugs or something because you should really hear yourself. If the majority are not always right why is it we asked for 8v8 gave our reasons for wanting it back. In the end we got it, shows we were correct that 6v6 did not work and 8v8 was needed. Also we have experianced HA with these mechanics and thats what guarantees us some comfort it will work. Please take your head out of a hole and apply your brain once in a while. Something which 99 percent of people agree on will most likely result in it being a good idea, just because you may not think its not it doesnt mean it shouldnt be implimented because thats what would keep the 99 percent of players happy.This is what anets doing, they think their ideas are superior to the actual players who play HA and look at the mess they made it into. Galie grey claims kill counts a success, come on your joking me does she even play HA. And this is what the problem is, their is not a good meditator within Anet dealing with the pvp side of things.

Stupid statement number 2. Please explain to me how alter cap was flawed im dying to hear it, and dont come up with those lame excusess which have been explained 1000 times like oh their were holding builds. I would like to raise a point, if holding builds were such a problem why is it i and many other players when playing HA always stood a chance of making it to halls and holding. The opportunity to was never thrown out of the window. So dont bring up that argument if your thinking about it because it only shows your lack of skill to remove holding teams from the alter. Frankly if you cant do that you dont deserve to win if your going to cry about it. Halls isnt mean to be easy. And dont mention about interupt wars because you know what i will say to that and i think randomways already explored and explained the domain for everyone many times. So anyways, surprise me.

Ye im aware of that, but please explain how this still gives anet the right to destroy a fully functional enjoyable pvp arena? I dont go to pve saying oh we should have new skills which mean you can do 200000 damage in one hit. Or oh we should make it that all armour in the game is free to purchase. Im sure if i did and anet implimented these changes you would be crying like a baby. But equally i can ask for such things because as you said, gw caters for pvp and pve correct. That statement of yours has no substance, casual pvpers should decide the outcome of HA. Its like saying children should be allowed to vote. Fact is casual HAers dont use HA much so what ever changes it wont effect them much, hard core HAers however will be effected dramtically and that can result in playing the game or not playing the game. Having a guild and not having a guild and so on.

Well were telling you the truth. I guess the fact your constantly being bombarded with the word clearly shows you and it where made for each other so all ill say is, Yes keep on smiling. People dont put words in your mouth btw, they use inferance in some cases to gather what your saying.

Were not calling you names. Oh good heavens we would never do such a thing. We are meerly stating that before you try argue that you should educate yourself on the matter first and put yourself in our shoes. No one minds about people being open minded. The problem comes when that open mindedness starts to cloud your judgement so that things which clearly are, to you are opposite. This is where the conflict begins.

HA was never without complaints, but I seem to recall those complaints focusing around three things. The first being requests for balance, some of these were justified, some where just whining. The second being new maps, lets face it, when all you do is Tombs, those maps can get boring rather quickly. The third was omg rank discrimination, and this one was just bogus. I'm sorry to anyone who feels otherwise, but guess what, some magic elf didn't show up and grant me whatever rank I wanted, I had to grind my ass off to get it. It took me longer to get from r0-3 than it did to get from r3-6, but guess what, I never came on fan sites and complained about it. I'll admit it, I was bad at Tombs and having to grind like crazy taught me a lot.
So now, back on topic, please find me any thread from the HA community that ever requested 6v6 before it was implemented (I'll even let you count any from after the first double fame weekend), or any thread asking for kill count and relic runs in HoH and changing HoH to an alliance battle with the great beauty of only ONE path anywhere.
The HA community never asked for these changes, yet they came. Then, finally there was great hope, Anet announced they would be doing a SERIES of tests on HA to try and restore its glory. Test one added kill count, relics in HoH and allinace battles in HoH. That did not go well at all. Oh, but wait, this TEST never was undone. Then, without undoing the first test, they decided to also test 8v8 in HA. Gee, if only there was some kind of scientific rule about only testing one variable at a time.
Then they just decided that was that, left the changes and were done with HA. Anyone else get the strange feeling two tests don't add up to a series? Sorry if we are complaining and ranting, but a large portion of our community has quit playing HA or the game all together. At the same time, no one else is coming in. I have not played through every map to get to HoH (with the exception of the latest double fame weekend) in over 4 months. And now we finally get a response from Anet (who has not posted in the HA threads in months) and all we get is that guess what, it wasn't perfect before, won't be fixed soon, have fun. Wow, I can just see all the people who left rushing back overnight! YAY, HA is saved!