Cap of +25 to the armor buff ... is it right? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

13 Jun 2007 at 01:53 - 1

I only want to discuss one change in the DEV update.

Quote:

posted by Gaile Gray

We added a cap of +25 to the armor buff when stacking skills. A single skill can still bring the bonus over +25, but multiple skills with smaller bonuses will not do so. Armor bonuses from shields, weapons, insignias and inscriptions are not affected and still stack.

How will the Armor de-stack update affect your ability to beat some missions such as DoA and RoT in Hard Mode? Will the standard DoA team build be possible anymore with the OF Tank build null and void?

I can think of a few Tactics builds I use. Combinations that have Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Disciplined Stance, Stand your Ground and Dolyak Signet just to name a few skills will no longer be viable stack options anymore.

Was Armor stacking that abusive in PvP and GvG?

Puebert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

13 Jun 2007 at 01:57 - 2

Its meant to make DoA harder? (I really hope not)

I am not a PvP player, so I don't think I can offer a great view of PvP, but I don't imagine it's very helpful in PvP, because it takes so long to get your armor up that high, and obviously the other team would switch targets.

They better make DoA easier then (which I don't think they needed to anyway, but with this they will)

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

13 Jun 2007 at 01:58 - 3

What? DoA actually been hard?!? We can't have that! Those 'elite' PvEers in there might actually have to work for there next FoW armour as they rake in the next batch of Titan Gemstones.

I really can't see how it will make that much of a difference. Stoneflesh isn't armour, bonds aren't armour.

At a wild guess with regards to PvP usage, it was probably down to Paraway again chaining Stand your ground and perma Watch Yourself.

Puebert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

13 Jun 2007 at 02:05 - 4

I thought DoA was just fine before.

(I wish some areas didn't take as long as they do, but thats okay)

Well, Dolyak and Armor of Earth were kinda needed for the OF tank.

ShadowStorm

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Take me where I cannot stand.

The Better Part of Valor

W/N

13 Jun 2007 at 02:40 - 5

Like I posted in the Dev Update Thread, this cap to armor buffs at 25 is retarded. It was included to reduce the effectiveness of Earth Ele Tanks in PVP but it breaks way more skills than it fixes.

My last remaining Paragon build is now ruined and one of my favorite Warrior team pve builds is now broken as well. Thanks Anet for fixing something that wasn't broken. Can you please, please, please go just one skill update without forcing me to find a new build for my Paragon? Please? I play primarily PvE and I don't deserve this kind of abuse.

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

13 Jun 2007 at 02:48 - 6

this is very typical of anet: they go into obs mode and look at whatever is the flavor-of-the-week, and nerf it, not realizing that these skills are not only useful but very much needed in totally different aspects of the game (ie, high-end pve)

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

13 Jun 2007 at 02:52 - 7

Quote:

posted by Ninjutsu Honor Code
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0167280&page=4

25 armor cap why god why is dolyak sig the only + armor skill for wars or something might aswell completely remove watch yourself and stand your ground cause if someone brings a skill that adds him some armor their plain useless say remove all armor bonuses a skill can give cause this is retarded. The loot scaling nerf already pissed me off but giving the team armor bonuses was something id actually enjoyed doing in gw or working on builds that gave the entire team armor bonuses how on earth are you gonna tank something in hard mode with +43 armor max if your stupid enough to have 16 strength, or just make feigned neutrality have no drawbacks and no recharge cause this is just insane heres a list of skills that cannot be used in combination anymore for armor bonuses suggest you remove them from the game and keep the highest boost ones:

1. Defy Pain
2. Dolyak Signet
3. "Shields Up!"
4. "Watch Yourself!"
5. Defensive Stance
6. Disciplined Stance
7. Fertile Season
8. Otyugh's Cry
9. Dryder's Defenses
10. Convert Hexes
11. Shield of Deflection
12. Shield of Regeneration
13. Elemental Resistance
14. Physical Resistance
15. Armor of Earth
16. Kinetic Armor
17. Obsidian Flesh
18. Ward Against Elements
19. Armor of Frost
20. Armor of Mist
21. Frigid Armor
22. Ward Against Harm
23. Feigned Neutrality
24. Mighty Was Vorizun
25. Protective Was Kaolai
26. Resilient Weapon
27. Tranquil Was Tanasen
28. "Stand Your Ground!"
29. Bladeturn Refrain
30. Conviction
31. Avatar of Balthazar

just 30 skills we cant combine anymore if your thinking anyone is gonna take a +10 or +24 over a skill that give over +30 you must be hit by a train why dont you just say we dont like the fact people can prevent damage by getting more then 100 armor well it wouldnt be necesairy if a monster can kill a unprotected squishy in 2 or 1 hits griefers in ra are lame true but you cant be possibly nerfing armor skills for that the fact that someone has a obsidian tank or terra tank would mean he or she is virtually hard to take down true but their enchants if its so depressing in doa then give them chillblians or something. The best thing is that they implemented this nerf just when i adapted to the lootscaling nerf. That was by means of farming with 8 actual people in uw wich was fun and daring thanks to the combo of shouts my monks had +48 armor wich meant aatxes wouldnt kill em in one hit anymore if we were too slow and one slipped through our defense. As i see it theres only two options anet one leave armor skills alone. two make frenzy elite " you attack 33% faster and take only half damage from attacks cost 1 adrenaline and buff mending to you cant be targeted by enemy spells +3...6 regen and you gain 25...50 armor. your choice xD

This was one of the better posts on the subject in the Dev update so I added it here.

Dear ANET you seriously need to rethink this change.

PvP kills the PvE star again.. Not a rant against PvP just a fact of life.

Kool Pajamas

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Maryland

Mage Elites [MAGE]

13 Jun 2007 at 02:58 - 8

I'm pretty sure that was meant to take out paragon chant/shouts.

From all the complaints I think they'll end up taking this out or modding it.

I think maybe they should change it to just shouts/chants since they cant be removed like enchants can. Or to reword it, instead of shout/chant, any non removable skills. Dont let those stack. Enchants are ok imo.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

13 Jun 2007 at 02:58 - 9

I don't understand why they couldn't just up the adrenaline on Watch Yourself! or give it like a 5 second recharge to avoid the constant uptime. Either that or... those terratanks? Balance changes are made because of RA griefers now?

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

13 Jun 2007 at 03:01 - 10

I suggested a simple suggestion that was to nerf stand your ground to 18 ar and watch yourself by -2 or so per rank. Even better, make the armor gain from Stand your ground scale like it does for watch yourself.

I dont think any other armor gain skills were 'abused' in PVP. RA and AB dont count.

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

13 Jun 2007 at 03:05 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I don't understand why they couldn't just up the adrenaline on Watch Yourself! or give it like a 5 second recharge to avoid the constant uptime. Either that or... those terratanks? Balance changes are made because of RA griefers now?

apparently so -- since obs mode is so easy to see what's currently en vogue in any pvp arena, the nerfs follow.

And Anet has sunk to another low in terms of trying to engineer a metagame: instituting hard caps/ceilings on things like armor boosts and soul reaping, rather than adjusting skills in terms of amount/duration/energy or adren cost, etc. Getting very lazy.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

13 Jun 2007 at 03:22 - 12

I think its a good change, they just need to tweak some mobs' damage to compensate a bit in balanced teams

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 03:23 - 13

Another move by anet that makes me wonder what is going on over there.

Gaia_Hunter

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

13 Jun 2007 at 03:31 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Another move by anet that makes me wonder what is going on over there.

Its something like:

guy #1-"Ppl are still complaining that farmers get things faster than non-farmers."

guy #2-" Those armor buffs in PvP make games really last long and getting boring."

guy #3-"Brilliant idea!!!! Why not cap AL, say its because PvP (and we arent lying) and make farming/elite area farming harder, so we level the community more?!"

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

13 Jun 2007 at 03:36 - 15

IAS is capped
regen is capped (with spillover)
Degen is capped (with spillover)

now armor buffs are capped.

anyone remember if inscreased movement speed is capped...i cant quite remember.

While i think +25 is friggin low for a cap, i think a hard cap isnt too unreasonable, given that other mechanics are capped already.

Hikan Trilear

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

13 Jun 2007 at 03:40 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

IAS is capped
regen is capped (with spillover)
Degen is capped (with spillover)

now armor buffs are capped.

anyone remember if inscreased movement speed is capped...i cant quite remember.

While i think +25 is friggin low for a cap, i think a hard cap isnt too unreasonable, given that other mechanics are capped already.

Increased movement is capped at 33% I think.

Lothlorian Sassun

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Dragonestos

N/

13 Jun 2007 at 03:41 - 17

Yeah the Armor Stacking Nerf makes NO SINCE whatsoever. ANET is out to Kill Solo Farming. Gaile always says this is not true but truth is in action. And the only thing I see coming down the Nerf Wagon are Nerf's to solo farming.

Stealthc

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Kansas City Hotsteppers

13 Jun 2007 at 03:42 - 18

Movement Snares are also capped (at 50% I think)

Darksun

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

USA

Karr's Castle

W/E

13 Jun 2007 at 03:45 - 19

The armor cap IS pretty silly, especially for War & Par trying to protect their team. But most of the changes are great.

I think decreased movement should be capped at 66%. The 90% slower is insane.

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 03:47 - 20

Why doesn't anet just go ahead and make it impossible to leave a town without a full party already?

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

13 Jun 2007 at 03:48 - 21

Lets keep on topic please..

How is the armor cap going to effect areas, personal builds, and team builds in PvE?

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

I was looking over my Paragon team build and noticed I was useing Koss for Watch Yourself while also using Stand your Ground. (cant do that anymore)

Y.T.

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/

13 Jun 2007 at 04:10 - 22

well its rly sad that anet talks about making it easier for some not-so-popular professions to find a group in elite area but keeps doing exact opposite. just think about it - be4 the nerf alot of paragons, dervishes, ritualists and eles tanked in doa just fine, whats going to happen to them now? personally i'm not complaining, i'm not tanking there, but its going to make questing in doa more boring if all those nice intelligent tanks will be thrown out of doa.... f/ex theres no room for paragon in doa but tank, but paragons have like 80AR, so now every pug will think "lets kick that para tank and take the war instead, at least war got 100AR and since OF and armor of earth dont stuck now that war will have 153AR and poor para will have only 133AR".... i know ppl who tanked on their ritualists in doa, i've heard about OF sins being good tanks, i doubt they will be able to do it after the update...

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

13 Jun 2007 at 04:15 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

SYG and WY are the only two that come to mind from an observer's point of view. My guess would be because the buffs that are party wide can't be stripped and have zero practical means to counter them (and the game shouldn't be Build Wars to quote many PvPers), so rather than balance the skills in question it would be easier to add another cap to the game.

drekmonger

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

A/E

13 Jun 2007 at 04:16 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

L

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

In GvG not so much. Shouts in Paragonway made for some situations where the armor cap might come into play, but I believe it's mostly it's nerf aimed at earth tanks in RA/AB/HB.

...

Here's the real problem:

Once upon a time, PvE was meant to lead into a PvP endgame. But the game was never set up properly to facilitate this, and the problem has only gotten worse with the addition of more "difficult" elite areas and hard mode.

Instead of increasing PvE difficulty via AI improvements, situations (such as scripted events/traps), and better skillbars -- the difficulty in PvE increases via sheer numbers. More mobs at a higher level. Coupled with the mob's lackluster AI (and the PvE community screaming bloody murder whenever that AI is improved), we've ended up with two very different games where the same mechanical effect from a skill will behave in a very different manner.

Further, the game hasn't been designed with team size scaling in mind. Armor bonus stacking is hardly a concern in 8v8 PvP, almost requirement in 8 vs a dozen high level mobs, and seriously annoying in 4v4 PvP.

The real solution would be to completely redo PvP and/or PvE so that one more closely resembles the other. Also enchant/hex/skill stacking in general should of had more general counters to begin with. That is mostly not an option at present, and probably hasn't been since Prophecies shipped.

Hopefully, a.net will take these lessons into GW2, but I'm not holding my breath. The current update suggests that a.net doesn't completely understand the beast they've created.

klrk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

The Space Rangers

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 04:59 - 25

they'll make warrior useless coz some idiots abused the system
with the 25armor cap , i better use my hammer and no more tanking then

DarkGanni

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Malta

[CuTe]

E/

13 Jun 2007 at 05:30 - 26

So this means no more Doylak + physical/ele resistance, GG this update will nerf most of my favorite tanking builds ever. Definitely a very bad choice, this update will make the game worse more than ever.

mazey vorstagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Nodnol

Meeting of Lost Minds

E/Mo

13 Jun 2007 at 05:57 - 27

Come'on people. Skills like Armour of Earth are still valid. Its' only stacking that doesn't work.

If they were trying to stop terra tanks and earth farmers (like me) they didn't. Armour of earth still provides the +67 armour becuase a single skill. Stoneflesh aura on top of that makes me invincible still

rohara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Rt/

13 Jun 2007 at 06:21 - 28

bad move, imo. HM and elite missions were hard enough even with the armor buff stacking. bonding hardly works due to the enchant strippers. what now?

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

13 Jun 2007 at 06:26 - 29

The +25 cap is pretty bad.

The exact reasons for this nerf are yet untold. Some people asked, maybe we get an answer.

I can think only of one reason for the nerf: Two shouts, "Watch Yourself" and "Stand Your Ground" = +44 Armor.
But is this really such a problem. WY by now requires to invest in Tactics.

Many people here do not see the issue with that. Nerfing Armor Stacking - in the sense of making it virtually impossible thanks to the low cap -just reduces options, destroys a lot of build and is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

One more super-artificial limitation. Just as unintuitive and odd like the 1in5 and 3in15 Soul Reaping bandaids they have come up with.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

13 Jun 2007 at 06:59 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

But is this really such a problem. WY by now requires to invest in Tactics.

Yes, it is. In PvP there are these things called "team builds" where people actually bother to coordinate, and two paragons will go command while one brings tactics, with both WY and shields up. The entire team will then proceed to not die.

I admit this really kills dolyak signet as a skill though. It's almost never worth sacrificing mobility for a mere 30ish armor you can't stack onto anything else.

Now they can just change prot spirit to protect a fixed amount rather than percentage and the HM farming nerfs will be complete.

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 07:02 - 31

This doesn't do anything to RA griefers and has ruined the fun ways to play warriors in PvE (Racthoh and Lamda's stuff).

Spazzer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

USA

Team Asshat [Hat]

Mo/E

13 Jun 2007 at 07:24 - 32

The fact that armor stacking is essential to the horrible DoA team builds is just another example of why PvE needed this.

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 07:29 - 33

Silly question but if the problem was with shouts, why not cap armor increases from shouts alone?

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2007 at 07:31 - 34

Example:

- Dolyak Signet +34 armor (12 Strength)
- Shield of Regeneration +40 armor (Always)

If you have both skills in you, you will be have +40 armor, plus all extra armor you have (runes, etc.)

That is the way I understand the change. Most people understand if you have SoR alone you have +40 and when casting Dolyak Signet you will be at +25, that is plenty ridiculous IMO, and I don't think the change is in that way.

Plague

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/E

13 Jun 2007 at 07:39 - 35

Bad move on ANet's part. One of my warrior builds relied completely on armor bonus stacks. Now it's worthless.

Is it just me, or has the game, in these late months, been excessively whittled down with nerfs to ensure there are no highs or lows? Everything is just... medium these days. And that's not a good thing.

When Guild Wars first came out it felt like my Necromancer was given a missile, and my Warrior was given a tank. Now, it feels like my Necromancer is using a stick, and my Warrior is using a rock. And both of them are layered in safety-first helmets and knee pads. When did Guild Wars become so lame?

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 07:40 - 36

But in order to get SoR to last, you need both a high prot skill and a way of getting your energy back fast. For a warrior, that can limit the builds you can use to make it work. Doubling them up both limits your mobility and drains e fast.

Antitorgo

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2006

Duty

Mo/Me

13 Jun 2007 at 07:42 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

The fact that armor stacking is essential to the horrible DoA team builds is just another example of why PvE needed this.

What the??? Have you ever played in DoA? I suppose your "solution" is to have the monks in the front-line?

Milennin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Europe

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 07:43 - 38

If Armour bonus stacking is a problem in PvP, why not just apply the thing in PvP and exclude it from PvE...?

Marth Reynolds

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

The Netherlands

The Lore Enforcers

Me/A

13 Jun 2007 at 08:10 - 39

This is just stupid... i certainly hope they will not implement it as it will hinder deep steel wall and doa builds and much more.

Tanks will become blockers now i guess -_-.
IMO warriors will be hit hard with this nerf, as they usually had several +20 ish armor boosts for tank builds.

Ari

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Lycan Blood Clan [WOLF]

W/

13 Jun 2007 at 08:13 - 40

Easy easy way to fix this.

Make the "skill balances" ONLY AFFECT PVP. IE: Some skills, maybe most.. would be two different things depending on whether it's PvP or PvE. Same with changes to armor stacking, soul reaping.. you name it. PvP and PvE are not symbiotic! Let's seperate them.