I think if they want a cap that it should be around 40-48, but 25 is ridiculous, why do they give us so many skills for boosting armour if they don't want us stacking them?
Or to go uncapped and still have some sort of balance, maybe, on top of effects from skills, for every so many extra points of armour you should move so much slower. For example after +24 armour, for each additional point of armour you move 1.5% slower (so at +48 armour you move 36% slower, +72 armour 72% slower, etc). This would be calculated before any speed drains applied to you by spells, hexes etc
Cap of +25 to the armor buff ... is it right?
Warrior Of The Toon
Xioden
Except for idiots in RA running Earth Tanks (At the same time you can get idiots running any number of builds that can't be beaten unless you have some heavy enchant removal), the main problem is SYG+WY.
-50% damage constantly to (usually) the entire party is alot considering they use it at pretty much no cost.
Change SYG to a slightly higher armor amount (+20-50 scalling maybe) and give it a "While not under the effect of another shout or chant". Make it an actual situational "Uhoh we're taking a lot of damage!" skill.
And although its a game mechanic change, possibly changing shouts to not reapply if they're already up (if you have 2 seconds left on WY and a paragon uses it again you don't get it recharged). This wouldn't really nerf any solo paragons, but rather large groups of them when they're carrying duplicates. At the very, very least, it would stop the spamming of the skills on recharge...
-50% damage constantly to (usually) the entire party is alot considering they use it at pretty much no cost.
Change SYG to a slightly higher armor amount (+20-50 scalling maybe) and give it a "While not under the effect of another shout or chant". Make it an actual situational "Uhoh we're taking a lot of damage!" skill.
And although its a game mechanic change, possibly changing shouts to not reapply if they're already up (if you have 2 seconds left on WY and a paragon uses it again you don't get it recharged). This wouldn't really nerf any solo paragons, but rather large groups of them when they're carrying duplicates. At the very, very least, it would stop the spamming of the skills on recharge...
gasmaskman
So, to all these people who think this +armor nerf kills DoA farming....why don't you guys prot spirit your tanks? I mean...if you don't already. That way you won't need an insane amount of +armor gear.
But, I don't play PvE so I don't know anything about DoA or whatever.
But, I don't play PvE so I don't know anything about DoA or whatever.
milias
I have to say that I was very disappointed with this change, as well. This has rendered my Strength Warrior build pretty much useless. I hope ANet doesn't decide to keep this.
GloryFox
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posted by gasmaskman So, to all these people who think this +armor nerf kills DoA farming....why don't you guys prot spirit your tanks? I mean...if you don't already. That way you won't need an insane amount of +armor gear. But, I don't play PvE so I don't know anything about DoA or whatever. |
MOBS of creatures who can spawn recreations of themselves with skill levels of 19-24 who remove enchants with ease is why Prot Spirit has limited uses at best. Armor stacking is about the only way to mitigate serious damage in these areas. There are other ways but this calls for very specific class hating builds who exclude 6 of the 10 primary professions.
Thats why.
Ninjutsu Honor Code
This update makes hard mode monsters say:"Yip eeh Ka Yay Motherf*cker"
Lagg
Unless they give Warriors a Sunspear PvE skill that's basically Dolyak Signet on crack, (say permanent +80 Armor, cannot be knocked down, no speed debuff), Anet is going to have to watch the nerdrage unfold.
Ain't no rage like it!™
Ain't no rage like it!™
Ninjutsu Honor Code
Nah its gonna be called the Frolzyak Signet +80 armor 33% faster attack and double damage... vs plants XD
Ninjutsu Honor Code
No seriously I dont want any pve only skills to be able to tank or buff my team give the pvp crybabies a suitable counter instead of a nuke on armor.
Lagg
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Originally Posted by Ninjutsu Honor Code
vs plants XD
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Will somebody please think of the shrubberies!
Racthoh
WY + SYG is just part of the mass paragon problem, and really this doesn't affect them all that much. Those teams still have:
Finale of Restoration/Purification
106 AL (80 + 16 shield + centurion's 10) or 116 against rit spike (10 vs. lightning) and SF (+10 vs. fire)
Defensive Anthem (was hit, but still good)
They're On Fire!
Mending Refrain (maybe a little?)
So how is a hit to stacking armour a solution? Base armour level as high as a warrior, healing + condition removal from c + spacing and spamming GftE! (and don't forget the energy management from it as well), a block skill that can't be stripped once up, and a % damage reduction skill that also can't be stripped. So... all of that is balanced now because those paragons are capped at 131 AL and power x skills can hit chants? This isn't even a bandaid fix to the problem.
I'd like to see adrenaline shouts returning half the energy from leadership, a recharge equal to the number of affected allies, refrains vanish after they've been reapplied x times equal to their respective attribute (with an energy reduction), and as others have suggested 10 off their armour level. I love my paragon, but it needs some hits so this armour cap nonsense goes away.
Finale of Restoration/Purification
106 AL (80 + 16 shield + centurion's 10) or 116 against rit spike (10 vs. lightning) and SF (+10 vs. fire)
Defensive Anthem (was hit, but still good)
They're On Fire!
Mending Refrain (maybe a little?)
So how is a hit to stacking armour a solution? Base armour level as high as a warrior, healing + condition removal from c + spacing and spamming GftE! (and don't forget the energy management from it as well), a block skill that can't be stripped once up, and a % damage reduction skill that also can't be stripped. So... all of that is balanced now because those paragons are capped at 131 AL and power x skills can hit chants? This isn't even a bandaid fix to the problem.
I'd like to see adrenaline shouts returning half the energy from leadership, a recharge equal to the number of affected allies, refrains vanish after they've been reapplied x times equal to their respective attribute (with an energy reduction), and as others have suggested 10 off their armour level. I love my paragon, but it needs some hits so this armour cap nonsense goes away.
Lagg
Ninjutsu Honor Code
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Originally Posted by Lagg
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Engel the Fallen
LMAO balancing for RA, and the fixing the wrong skill ftw 
around
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| yeah they might aswell use that as a logo instead of providing counters they nerf everything till nothings left. |
Ninjutsu Honor Code
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Originally Posted by spawnofebil
If there was a skill that instagibbed everyone on the other team but could be countered by another skill, is the first skill balanced?
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LifeInfusion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
I admit this really kills dolyak signet as a skill though. It's almost never worth sacrificing mobility for a mere 30ish armor you can't stack onto anything else.
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Ignorance STOPS it, but no skills STRIP it. Also, 0 cast time means no possible interrupt.
My main concern is the ubiquitous Watch yourself has been pommeled time after time just because of Paragons. It is more or less a staple skill for Koss/Goren since they upkeep it. Compare that to the craptastic warrior and ranger stances that get screwed over by Wild Strike/Throw/Blow.
Does-it-Matter
ANet: I'm using Skill Update!
Community: Ahhh! Oh God! The End is Nigh! Unplayable, I'm unplayable! We must rally against the PvP players! PvE is n00b! My cat smells like cat litter.
Seriously people, every time I read a community response to a proposed skill update (once the "snowball" gets running, that is) I feel like I'm playing Arborstone endlessly.
It's still all on paper... WAIT to see how it actually turns out. Maybe that creative thingy in your brain might get some oxygen and blood and start going "Oh God! Freedom! Finally!"
All this is, is a series of persons promoting each others' fears and further diluting the subject.
---
OT: This reminds me of a thought I had in the recently announced update thread. A person made a comment about how Hexes are running rampant now, supposedly buffed to unheard of levels of power. They called for 'nerfs' so that Hexes would be 'balanced' because there is no way to counter such things...
...and then someone suggested a Mesmer, and players around the World were most likely rushing to Wiki to figure out what that term means.
The solutions are out there... we just have to think!
Community: Ahhh! Oh God! The End is Nigh! Unplayable, I'm unplayable! We must rally against the PvP players! PvE is n00b! My cat smells like cat litter.
Seriously people, every time I read a community response to a proposed skill update (once the "snowball" gets running, that is) I feel like I'm playing Arborstone endlessly.
It's still all on paper... WAIT to see how it actually turns out. Maybe that creative thingy in your brain might get some oxygen and blood and start going "Oh God! Freedom! Finally!"
All this is, is a series of persons promoting each others' fears and further diluting the subject.
---
OT: This reminds me of a thought I had in the recently announced update thread. A person made a comment about how Hexes are running rampant now, supposedly buffed to unheard of levels of power. They called for 'nerfs' so that Hexes would be 'balanced' because there is no way to counter such things...
...and then someone suggested a Mesmer, and players around the World were most likely rushing to Wiki to figure out what that term means.
The solutions are out there... we just have to think!
Guardian of the Light
Something like +40 would have been a bit more reasonable but this doesn't really affect me.
Now that I look at the changes they have a cap on everything. Except Health boost or reducution....uh oh...
Now that I look at the changes they have a cap on everything. Except Health boost or reducution....uh oh...
upier
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
isnt that what most pugs do anyways?
And hows any kind of restriction going to stop those with creativity anyway? Lets see how this is implemented and give Anet the feedback. |
before we were given a choice - you could do the same old nuking+tank or you could buff everyone's armour to some sweet leveles and try something different.
now only ONE option seems viable and that is bad.
especially in a game with 10 classes and only 8 slots in a party!
Winterclaw
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| especially in a game with 10 classes and only 8 slots in a party! |
One can hope anyways.
Ninjutsu Honor Code
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Maybe GWEN will let us have a party of 16 and 7 heroes....
One can hope anyways. |
One can hope anyways.
Lagg
At least it's a good thing they realised adding those 4 new classes added nothing but imbalance and clutter to the game.
Let's see how Guild Wars 2 fares and hope for them they're not dethroned by Diablo 3 in the meantime.
Let's see how Guild Wars 2 fares and hope for them they're not dethroned by Diablo 3 in the meantime.
Lord Mendes
@ thread title,
yes it is right. Stacking loads of mediocre skills so you can achieve 1000000 armor is not good for the game, no matter how you look at it. Sure this makes some bad skills even worse and maybe makes the game a bit harder to play, but that is a good thing right?
You've all seen or played warriors that use 3 skills and end up getting hit for 0s, don't you think it dumbs down the game?
yes it is right. Stacking loads of mediocre skills so you can achieve 1000000 armor is not good for the game, no matter how you look at it. Sure this makes some bad skills even worse and maybe makes the game a bit harder to play, but that is a good thing right?
You've all seen or played warriors that use 3 skills and end up getting hit for 0s, don't you think it dumbs down the game?
upier
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Maybe GWEN will let us have a party of 16 and 7 heroes....
One can hope anyways. |
Ohh and "No heroes!11! they are teh suxxor!111!111"
(but seriously - 16-man parties would be superb!)
GloryFox
One idea I liked when reading this thread and the Dev Update thread was the idea of having various environmental effects for PvP. For example you can have an environmental effect that creates an armor cap, an effect that causes spirits to cost 10 more mana to summon etc, etc. In this way you give PvP the same pains as PvE players in high end areas, while leaving the PvE experience alone.
One of my largest concerns for a +25 armor cap will be how it will effect the PvE pug. With so many skills affected (30+) it will be difficult to manage player redundancy in skills. Many will choose to just HERO Hench it rather than engage in the fun dynamic of a PuG. This problem will not just occur in PvE but in PvP as well.
For example:
Player one: I have Watch Youself have the paragon drop Stand Your Ground.
Player two: No have the Warrior drop Watch Yourself and Ill keep my Stand Your Ground it's instant and lasts longer and helps the casters better.
Player three: Well I have Avatar of Balthazar neither of those will help, stack with me much.
Player four: Well I was gonna take Shield of Regeneration to help the warriors should I scrap it then for another elite?
Player five: Not sure I was gonna run Physical Resistance for personal protection but since the Warrior is using Watch Yourself I should drop it as well even though it protects better than Watch Yourself.
Player six: No have the warrior drop WY and I'll run Ward against harm for back rank protection since he has armor and we will just stay in the zone.
Player Seven: Dang now I need to change out Protective was Kaoli, are you sure you can't change your elite skill to some other skill so I can keep Protective was Kaoli for myself and Resilient weapon for the front line?
Player eight: Screw this can we just go now?
ANET your adding to an already confused public... ease the pain drop this idea before the pain is worse.
One of my largest concerns for a +25 armor cap will be how it will effect the PvE pug. With so many skills affected (30+) it will be difficult to manage player redundancy in skills. Many will choose to just HERO Hench it rather than engage in the fun dynamic of a PuG. This problem will not just occur in PvE but in PvP as well.
For example:
Player one: I have Watch Youself have the paragon drop Stand Your Ground.
Player two: No have the Warrior drop Watch Yourself and Ill keep my Stand Your Ground it's instant and lasts longer and helps the casters better.
Player three: Well I have Avatar of Balthazar neither of those will help, stack with me much.
Player four: Well I was gonna take Shield of Regeneration to help the warriors should I scrap it then for another elite?
Player five: Not sure I was gonna run Physical Resistance for personal protection but since the Warrior is using Watch Yourself I should drop it as well even though it protects better than Watch Yourself.
Player six: No have the warrior drop WY and I'll run Ward against harm for back rank protection since he has armor and we will just stay in the zone.
Player Seven: Dang now I need to change out Protective was Kaoli, are you sure you can't change your elite skill to some other skill so I can keep Protective was Kaoli for myself and Resilient weapon for the front line?
Player eight: Screw this can we just go now?
ANET your adding to an already confused public... ease the pain drop this idea before the pain is worse.
drakun01
And yet another wedge is driven between the PvE and PvP communities.
Health is gonna' be capped next. And then they will buff Symbiosis.
Or wait? Maybe they will nerf something else integral to gameplay.
OMGNOPLZNO! Don't nerf spell casting! PLEASE!
You will only be allowed to cast 1 spell every 15 seconds. Because Searing Flames is overpowered in combination with a skill bar.
Health is gonna' be capped next. And then they will buff Symbiosis.
Or wait? Maybe they will nerf something else integral to gameplay.
OMGNOPLZNO! Don't nerf spell casting! PLEASE!
You will only be allowed to cast 1 spell every 15 seconds. Because Searing Flames is overpowered in combination with a skill bar.
Ninjutsu Honor Code
Quote:
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
One idea I liked when reading this thread and the Dev Update thread was the idea of having various environmental effects for PvP. For example you can have an environmental effect that creates an armor cap, an effect that causes spirits to cost 10 more mana to summon etc, etc. In this way you give PvP the same pains as PvE players in high end areas, while leaving the PvE experience alone.
One of my largest concerns for a +25 armor cap will be how it will effect the PvE pug. With so many skills affected (30+) it will be difficult to manage player redundancy in skills. Many will choose to just HERO Hench it rather than engage in the fun dynamic of a PuG. This problem will not just occur in PvE but in PvP as well. For example: Player one: I have Watch Youself have the paragon drop Stand Your Ground. Player two: No have the Warrior drop Watch Yourself and Ill keep my Stand Your Ground it's instant and lasts longer and helps the casters better. Player three: Well I have Avatar of Balthazar neither of those will help, stack with me much. Player four: Well I was gonna take Shield of Regeneration to help the warriors should I scrap it then for another elite? Player five: Not sure I was gonna run Physical Resistance for personal protection but since the Warrior is using Watch Yourself I should drop it as well even though it protects better than Watch Yourself. Player six: No have the warrior drop WY and I'll run Ward against harm for back rank protection since he has armor and we will just stay in the zone. Player Seven: Dang now I need to change out Protective was Kaoli, are you sure you can't change your elite skill to some other skill so I can keep Protective was Kaoli for myself and Resilient weapon for the front line? Player eight: Screw this can we just go now? ANET your adding to an already confused public... ease the pain drop this idea before the pain is worse. |
Kool Pajamas
Different rules for pvp and pve could work. They did it with pet DP briefly, so it can be done.
Winterclaw
I'm going to jump on the different rules for different areas bandwagon.
kvndoom
Sheesh, I wish Paragons hadn't been created. Hell, I wish NF didn't even have new classes period. This game has caused more cross-class nerfs than Factions ever did. But this one is crazy. It might have been because of PVP, but it definitely hurts PVE a whole lot more. I play both, but I understand how this absolutely would KILL a lot of creative builds (solo and party-based) if it holds up.
Anet needs to fix the problem skills and the problem CLASS (you know who you are!) and not work around the problem. If they had kept the paragons inside a vacuum where only their own shouts gave them energy, a lot of nerfs would not have happened. Shields Up, Watch Yourself, armor buffs in general... how much more does the warrior have to get nerfed because of the Paragon?
Anet needs to fix the problem skills and the problem CLASS (you know who you are!) and not work around the problem. If they had kept the paragons inside a vacuum where only their own shouts gave them energy, a lot of nerfs would not have happened. Shields Up, Watch Yourself, armor buffs in general... how much more does the warrior have to get nerfed because of the Paragon?
Xyzzy
Anet, the only programmers I have found that are worse then Microsoft. Well let be fare though they had to save a huge about of money by not hiring real writers for PvE. The story lines are more predictable then a white man's dialog in a Spike Lee movie. That or in Faction where you go half the game, where they got away with not using real texture mapping. You know the city that is made of cardboard boxes that it look like someone vomited on. The worse part is this, guild wars 2 is about a year and half off, and they still have not gotten the skill balance in the first one.
GloryFox
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posted by kvndoom Sheesh, I wish Paragons hadn't been created. Hell, I wish NF didn't even have new classes period. This game has caused more cross-class nerfs than Factions ever did. But this one is crazy. It might have been because of PVP, but it definitely hurts PVE a whole lot more. I play both, but I understand how this absolutely would KILL a lot of creative builds (solo and party-based) if it holds up. Anet needs to fix the problem skills and the problem CLASS (you know who you are!) and not work around the problem. If they had kept the paragons inside a vacuum where only their own shouts gave them energy, a lot of nerfs would not have happened. Shields Up, Watch Yourself, armor buffs in general... how much more does the warrior have to get nerfed because of the Paragon? |
Please stop with the Paragon Class hate. Stand Your Ground and a number of other shouts could have been warrior skills too. Fact is Shouts and synergy were around before Paragons were thought up or existed. The Paragon is a fine class and knocking the class when the class is not at issue here is a bad idea. The Paragon is here to stay and will be here for GW2 so get used to it. Armor stacking, was also, not alone to Paragons, and was around before Paragons began using Stand Your Ground.
Its amazing how deadly so many people think Paragons are and yet I can't get into a group in any Elite mission because I'm a Paragon. Paraway came about just like Barrage Pet Groups came about. No body liked or knew what they did so they just gathered as teams.
Good for them.
Gwmaster
meh, good thing i stoped playing 3 days ago. REAL LIFE FTW!!
Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by sweat man
zog diddims, pve carebears need to think. what a pity, seriously. it just means that u cant use templated builds, now u just have to think FOR YOURSELF? wtf
this is not a big hit, it just fixes the PvErs that came to abuse TA/RA with that earth ele build crap, and the r0-3 pug fags that ran paragons like that. wow, shock horrer. tbh, i realy dont care about skill differences and "nerfs" there will always be a way, u just need to re-think your build every once in a while...calm down |
This is a fairly harsh nerf to high level PvE, due to extreme damage from Domain of Anguish (need I even mention hard mode DoA), Hard Mode Deep and Urgoz, and perhaps even FoW/UW. Shame on ANET for doing this, I do feel sorry for the high level PvE players, I really do.
You know, here is a thought... they could in theory seperate PvE and PvP skill descriptions, seeing as how the Battle Isles are where ALL PvP takes place, without exception. So, basically, as soon as you zone to Great Temple of Balthazar, all skills go into PvP mode, and when you zone into LA, KC, or Kamadan, your skills revert to PvE mode. I really don't see that as too much effort, going off the level of programming knowledge I understand, which is decent. However, I do not know the source code for Guild Wars, so perhaps this is impossible, but I really really really doubt that.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
One of my largest concerns for a +25 armor cap will be how it will effect the PvE pug.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
SO ANET how does one beat DoA or RoT in hard mode now?
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...is this a trick question or something, I don't get it. =/
Ork Pride
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
try taking an English class, it helps.
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Dragonious
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
try taking an English class, it helps.
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Not only did he forget to capitalize the t as mentioned before, but he should have used a semi-colon after class since a comma would only be useful before a conjunction. I wouldn't criticize another person's writing while you make errors in your own.....PWNage in the 3rd degree
Lagg
People have been saying it for so long, but I must reiterate.
Subclasses would have saved the game balance since Factions day 1.
Meaning no new Primary Attributes, only Secondary Attributes added to the existing classes.
Assassins should have been a Mesmer subclass.
Ritualists should have been a Necromancer subclass.
Paragons should have been a Warrior subclass.
Dervishes should have been a Monk subclass.
And they should have added additional subclasses for Rangers and Elementalists.
So much nerfing and imbalances would have been avoided.
Especially with the Paragon (though there have been others).
But back on topic, I agree with the environmental cap.
If not, do raise the armor cap to at least +80 AL, so that the stacking of two +40 AL skills isn't wasted.
Subclasses would have saved the game balance since Factions day 1.
Meaning no new Primary Attributes, only Secondary Attributes added to the existing classes.
Assassins should have been a Mesmer subclass.
Ritualists should have been a Necromancer subclass.
Paragons should have been a Warrior subclass.
Dervishes should have been a Monk subclass.
And they should have added additional subclasses for Rangers and Elementalists.
So much nerfing and imbalances would have been avoided.
Especially with the Paragon (though there have been others).
But back on topic, I agree with the environmental cap.
If not, do raise the armor cap to at least +80 AL, so that the stacking of two +40 AL skills isn't wasted.
bhavv
Since I already use watch yourself + stand your ground in HM PVE, I can tell that this nerf is going to make HM missions even more harder. Yes, I'm talking about Vizunah Square.
Making it only affect PVP would be the ideal solution.
Making it only affect PVP would be the ideal solution.