Fast Faction: Kurzick quit on Odd, Luxon's on Even

It is cheating for the same reason every other instance of alleged cheating has been cheating: Anet has, at their sole discretion, decided ex post facto that it is cheating.

Cheating by definition to a game designer = Doing anything in a game in order to bypass what was originally intended by the designer.

So /roll is technically cheating.

Maybe Anet should add a Rolling Dice Arena in GWEN, so people who likes to roll dices can play there...

Seriously, this is getting even more ridiculous. People complain about grind and to correct the problem they suggest to break the game even more. Really genius....Not!

Not sure if that definition works. The designers surely didn't originally intend for the Melandru's Hope quest to be done in the way it is for FFF, by scouting the areas before the quest is activated and receiving credit for it after it is activated. Actually the Luxon equivalent to that got nerfed very drastically because of a similar thing happening there.

But players started doing that en masse on the Kurz side for so long that eventually the designers embraced it instead of delivering the expected nerf. And then further embraced it by removing the "double faction for learning Kurz skills exploit" yet reapplying that same "exploit" to the normal game, solely for the purpose of helping the players who make their "in-game living" to do the Melandru's Hope quest in that way the designers did not intend.

Anyone else noticing it takes like 5x as long to start a game because the loosing side has less districts. The other night there was 8 Luxon and 2 or 3 on the Kurzick side

? You're daft.

Warrior = 3-6 seconds of +100 Armor That 3 seconds doubles the length, and since it is an instant shout with an 8 adrenaline cost, that extra 3 seconds can make it almost perma-+100 armor. Did you not read the skill?

Necro = That skill has a base of 16, so that and the extra damage is applied to foe and all nearby foes. Did you not read the skill?

The sin skill is a 10 second regen - that 4 extra health is over 10 seconds, so its not just 4 extra health. Did you not read the skill?

Mesmer - all foes in the area. The area. Did you not read the skill?

Rit - 48 health to each spirit. Think it through dood - shelter and union lose health as they do their thing, and this restores it. Maybe it is better than you think, but most likely you do not see that because you do not play a ritualist? Did you not read the skill?

These are not trivial differences. This is not, as others have said, pretty armor with the same stats. You found 5 stellar examples as to why that is not true, with the star being almost perma +100 armor. Good choice.

So, you wanna discuss ways to fix the current problem, or is this the extent of your argument?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

yea no one wants to play the other sides maps - go figure

can you blame them?

apparently he didn't because that one will go upto 8 degen to all foes in the area at full strength

just as good at level one? yeah right...

I think his point is that these skills are still good at low levels. In fact, at levels 2-3, it is already much better than their regular counterparts (for example, selfless spirit vs divine spirit, triple shot vs dual shot). Not having the highest rank in the titles is not going to make or break you, and merely rewards people who have put enough effort to max the title. It is anet's first way to turn the game slowly to something like WoW, where grind rewards skill, albeit only a small amount right now.

There really needs no fix. We've played the game fine as it is before these new more powerful skills came out. If we were playing at 100% efficiency before, it just means those with low level luxon/kurzick will be playing at 105% efficiency now because of one/two skills being more powerful, and those with higher levels will be playing at like 110% efficiency.

I think the focus shouldn't be necessarily using those skills to its maximum power. To me, the skills provide a slight incentive for me to do AB once in a while to raise my ranks and maybe slowly get stronger in the long run (sort of like an investment). Everyone seems to see it as a "right here and now" thing, which is the wrong way to approach it.

i think the point is that usually when people give the gw community free shit, they complain ad nauseum. wtf is wrong with you people. they specifically made it pve-only so that there was no inherent need to "keep up" with the other guy.

grind it or not. and shut the hell up about it. if they're really such "i win buttons" then you should have to work your fat lazy asses off for them. this thread is getting stupid.

Well Masamune, that is what we were here to discuss, how to fix the current problem. His argument was flawed, and I think your 100 to 110 percent analogy is wrong too. Perma +100 armor is not an extra 10 percent.

This is a case where the work and effort has a significant payoff, versus armors where there is none. He and you are minimizing that, but it is true all the same.

I agree with him in that titles should be grindy. This is not just a title.

As I stated before, the PvE community demonstrably does not like ANet's zero-sum game winner take all PvP mentality, and in the past have shown that they will rig the games to make them more efficient, ie - wintersday and odd districts for grenth even for Dwayna. That is the community adapting to change the fundamental payoff matrix of the game in question.

It is fundamentally different than the PvP crown mentality. Take tennis - the way the community is rigging it (AB) would be analogous to tennis players throwing matches so everyone can get a trophy.

Well, the difference is that 1. it is all virtual so everyone can have a trophy, and 2. The trophy will give you benefits in-game, as opposed to sitting in a case somewhere.

I think that if ANet fixed the payoff matrix for winning and losing such that it is profitable to stay and play and lose instead of quit, then we would solve half the problem, get everyone through this faster, and let AB go back to being what it was - people who like playing AB and not an inefficient grind-fest.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I seriously agree. Instead of wasting your time arguing and complaining, you should be playing GW and getting faction points. Arguing here is pretty much useless.

previously, grind hasnt enabled you to have a more directly powerful character.

now it does.

welcome to WoW-lite? perhaps a little premature, but, if this luxkurz skill/grind is the future direxion of GW. . .

Arguing here is not useless. The uproar over the loot scaling caused the devs to go back a few days later and exempt the important stuff from loot scaling. Uproars for nerfs are a factor in what skills gets nerfed. Uproars of all kinds have led to the devs making all kinds of changes in the game.

And no one is saying "We want the skills now without having work for them". But, having to spend several hundred to several thousand hours of real-time worth of grinding just to max these skills is ludicrously excessive by any reasonable measuring stick. The work to max them should be brought down to a reasonable level.

QFT.........

Something that i don't understand...

From the sounds of things, not all that many people pug anymore. Yet the only time that these skills are EVER likely to cause bias is in a pug... A good player in your alliance isn't gonna kick you for not having a high rank in Alliegience.

So where the hell is the problem? 1 moment people don't pug, the next they all do because for some reason it creates a good arguement against these skills.

Why? Why is it a problem? Well because we want our skills to be effective, We don't want to play for 20 minutes only to get 50 faction just because somone else decides not to play and another 4 people leave before the round even starts.

Actually, whether PuGs will discriminate based on faction rank is not the topic in question. The OP is not talking about PuGs.

The OP is talking about AB, and how players can/should/do agree on a random determiner of victory, so that the designated "losing" side can immediately cede the field to the designated "victors" who will win, and the losing side can proceed to the next game. It eliminates wasted time and effort on the part of losers (since there is no appreciable benefit to losing and staying), and given a moderate degree of honesty on all parts will dramatically increase the efficiency of gaining faction.

If the goal of the game is to play, then players will play. Unfortunately, ANet has made it into a faction grind by adding it as an option for going up a monstrously huge track topping out at 10 million points. Just to get to the skills at rank 1, you need 100 thousand faction donated.

So let me quote myself from a previous post to put rhe discussion back on track.

The PvE community has shown that it does not care for disorganized, player-competitive, inefficient win/lose situations.

Don't believe me?

Try Wintersday. Districts were agreed upon - Even Dwayna, Odd Grenth IIRC. That was a situation that the community made vastly more efficient for getting the hats. Why should we compete against eachother when we can all agree and win? We spared ourselves the competitive drama for.......what?

....a frickin hat?

So, when ANet gives us a grindfest totally stacked for the winners, that we can double the efficiency with a simple agreement?

That is a no-brainer.

Now, I may be reaching here, but dont you think that 10 million maxxed is a bit extreme? Even you are proposing that the reward be increased. Hmmmmm.

The only way this can be solved by ANet is to alter the reward payoff. Reward everyone. That will make it more efficient to play through the game win or lose, than quit.

Of course when they give us a situation that we can optimize, then you betcha we're gonna optimize. There is no reason to play the game their way. Their way, currently, sucks.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

wow sauce......VERY nice post, and I totally agree with you. 10 millions is a TAD bit extreme. Hell, even on double ss/lb weekend, I maxed out SS title on one guy, and had enough to farm some for others. This weekend? ALL I did was FFF, and only ended up getting 400k points. Thats WITH the double faction. I think 1 million should be enough.

I usually and striaght pve, and I could care less about the battle between luxons and kurzicks. That, afterall, is a PvP aspect of the game. They need to lower the requirement on this. I really do feel bad for the luxons though, they do not have a method thats as quick as the FFF :\

Anet, just make it so that once you get R1 or R2 in the title (whichever is deemed better), the skills are at max. A little grinding isn't that big of a deal and it is reasonable to reach R1 or R2 for the max damage skills.

But 10 million faction? This is Guild Wars, not a full time job!

(heck, even R2 is a little high, maybe make it so there are several ranks between 0-150,000 and after 150,000 the skills are capped but the title keeps going up for title-seekers?)

Ok kids to get each rank you must contribute 5k this many times (amounts are from rank to the next rank)

rank 1 / 10 times

rank 2 / 15 more times

rank 3 / 15 more times

rank 4 / 15 more times

rank 5 / 32.5 more times

rank 6 / 32.5 more times

rank 7 / 65 more times

rank 8 / 65 more times

rank 9 / 125 more times

rank 10 / 125 more times

rank 11 / 250 more times

rank 12 / 250 more times

Grand total of 1000 times you must contribute 5k faction

the double for alliance faction is figured into the amounts you must contribute from rank to rank

if you didn't get double faction to your title you would have to double these numbers

however long it takes you to farm 5k take that time and multiply to a thousand

Holy crap, when I calculated how long it takes me to get 5k faction (doing about 5 Kuzick Arborstone HM farm runs) and then multiplied by 1000 I almost passed out.

I am the same as darktyco - Holy Crap.

Awesome way to illustrate the problem!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

oh to further clarify, there are 8760 hours in a year

lets say eack 5k takes 1 hour = 1000 hours

let's say 45 min = 750 hours

30 min = 500 hours

get's better and better doesn't it?

Hey, that is only 500 days @ 2 hours a day!

(whoops, GW2 may be out by then?)

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

and who was it who said that the solution for stopping ppl from leeching is to half the faction given for winning? lol

Your sarcasm detector appears to be malfunctioning.

This is the situation I've been in several times that's really frustrating.

Please revert the faction reduction for the losing team.

Wow this is a cool post, I actually thought it would take far too long to get to 10 mil

I think it may take me 42 days of constant play to get 10 mil

While i'm in no way goign to do that, I at least now know Its not as difficult as I first thought it would be to do this. 5K faction doesnt take that long to get, an hour at most if you do thing intensly.

You only need to kill 500 normal foes in HM and those lovely bosses give you 250 for a kill

Imo, the reward should be fairly high even when you lost the match so it doesn't feel like you wasted your time.

However, what I think is needed is a faction bonus to the winning alliance. The problem with AB is that because of the unbalanced maps, the winning side is usually easily outnumbered by the losing one(because they have more chance to win). What happens then is that the losing side gets stuck on the "no opposing party" timer because no one is interest in playing on the other side. The recent update only made this worst because now, your reward for losing is even lower.

If a factions bonus was given to the winning alliance, this could just create a good enough incentive for more players on the winning side to risk it.

This has been and still is the major problem with AB. Whenever your alliance is losing, you can't get in because the kurzick vs luxon ratio gets all screwed up. Whatever can be done to get more people to play on the winning side would make AB more enjoyable as a whole.

But the skill isn´t necessary to PLAY the game or to advance in the game. You can completely enjoy and finish the game without it. All titles are a bonus, or vanity. It´s the same as having level 8 lightbringer. That sure helps you, but its far from necessary to advance inside the GW world.

For as far as I know the skills dont make you significant better and thus giving you an advantage in the game for lets say a rank 1 and rank 10 <insert rank name>. It's not that you earn 10x as much money with 1 skill at level 10, comparing to one with level 1 (for example). In no way it outbalances the game - or proof me wrong.

If the difference is too great - I assume they should indeed lower the max cap as some suggested.

Not really imo. Players will always try to break your game (if it makes them stronger, advance quicker, or simply enlarge epeen). If you can do anything to bypass it and succeed, its called a flaw in your design. Simple example from a book I read somewhere. If you had a rubber tire hanging on a rope, and you can punch it, and then dodge it, and call it a game. You play it a few times and actually becoming good at punch-dodging the construction. You let your friend play it and tell him to dodge the tire as much as he can. He just doesnt punch it and says: TADA! Did he cheat the system? Yes he did, but is it his fault? No, you didnt gave him motivation to actually punch the bag, or enforce the rule.

Rolling was a problem in HvH when it was released. It got 'fixed' when they introduced ladder play, so people got penalties when they left (losing points). However I'm wondering if it hasn't come back by now within ranks 5000-10000 (the level where people dont care about the ranks, but still want their title).

A problem I see with the reward system is not that its the rewards an sich.. They had it balanced out quite a bit, until they upped the rewards for active players/winners. Problem is: you cant do much about it for a great deal (2/3rds actually). Let me explain it. You get into the system and only fill out and have control at 1/3rd of the total team. If you rock the game with your group, and the other 2/3rd either leaves, are utterly crap or whatever, you're most likely to lose anyway.
The same for the Wintersday example people gave above here. You had no total control over the outcome.
Now lets take 2 other examples. A PvP one, HA: You have total control over the party, there is hardly any losing award too, but its in your total power to win (arguable but its not the point). A PvE one, sunspear titles, its a grind, but you can influence the outcome to the max, all in your hands.

A test would be, would you still be angry if you where allowed a 12v12 team - lets say an alliance team brought in the game? (I mean, winner wins more than before, and double the points for donating!).

Sorry for the long post - hope the points came across and made sense. If not sorry for wasting a few minutes of your life ;p

I see the problem as frustrating as well, though i understand A-Net is trying to get more people into AB and make it more competitive. However, all that's happened is people only playing when they know they have a greater then 50% chance at winning. Why waste 20 minutes playinf to win not much faction. I mean, I love AB as much as the next person, but it's made it so that you have 400 luxons waiting to fight 30 kurzicks and vice versa. And if you ever do go in, your entire team leaves.

So, how do you get more people to play while still making it fair to everybody and eliminate leeching?

A) Buff the Kill Points up a bit. 1 point a kill is umm...pointless. Not trying to be mean, but it's just kinda silly. Maybe 5 points a kill?

B) This one wouldn't be very popular...but there is a point to it. Have a point penalty for dying. Not big, maybe 1 or 2 points. The reason for this is...

C) Make the spawning area in the base a health degen area once the match starts. So you leech, your health goes down and you die. This way every time a leecher dies he loses faction from his possible total for that match. Forces leechers to at least leave the the base and then there is the possibilty that they are killed by somebody else, giving that person faction and taking away from the leechers total yet again. Make sense?

D) Just like you get points for a kill, give points for every shrine that you help cap. This will encourage capping and not just running around attacking people, though if you enjoy running around killing you can still do that (see the increased points per kill). I would say more points for capping a shrine then for a kill. Capping makes the game more fun in my opinion.

E) Decrease the points gained by winning.

I think if you do those things leechers can only gain the amount of points won by the team as a whole minus the amount deducted for their deaths. Leechers will no longer be able to gain the amount of faction that they've been getting by just sitting there.

Games will be competitive, but not unfair to the loser. If your team loses 500-490, you'll get the 490 points, points for every shrine you've capped and for every kill you've made, with a slight penalty for deaths. The gain for kills outweighs the deaths so that if you actually participate your deaths won't greatly hurt you.

And of course we want to reward the winning team, but not so much that the leechers get a ton.

Here's the math of how I see it.

Let's say during the match you help cap say 8 shrines. And let's also say that you get 15 points per shrine cap. (8x15=120) Say you kill 12 people (5 pts a kill X 12 = 60 points ). And that you died 8 times (-2 x 8 = -16 pts). Your team was in a close match but lost 500-473. So you get...

Points For Capping Shrines = 120
Points For Kills = 60
Penalty For Dying = -16
Team Capping Points = 473
Total = 637

That's pretty reasonable in my opinion.
If you have similar numbers but won you get another say 750 faction.

I dunno...maybe I've thought about this too much lol. Thanks for reading.

So if I spent 11.4% of my year farming for faction, I will have the max title.

...That seems worth it!

After playing with SHITTY groups all afternoon and it's the map favoured for us, I support leavers - AB is bullshit now