Why have 25 heros to use 3 at a time?

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Whether you like it or not, these QQers here and on GWOnline are vocal.
Well that's what a QQerr is: they come onto forums and bitch and complain and horribly overexaggerate anything and everything bad about the game.

Take WoW's forums for example: If you go there you'd think it was the worst game in the world. Load it up and play through it, and it's actually a pretty solid game.

It's why it's best to take everything that's said on forums with a very tiny grain of salt, especially those that are mainstream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
And so it happens that the vocal majority wants 7 heroes.
And so therefore the majority in the whole GW playerbase wants it so there can be 7 heroes too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
...
What?
Everyone can vote on GWO. Failed comparison.
"Only allowing" is an incorrect wording, you're right. It's more like taking the first five votes you get and saying "AIGHT cool that's enough next state."

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
You say conclusion, I say educated guess.
An educated guess based on a fan forum.

I'll say that again. An educated guess based on a fan forum.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
This is something that can't really be helped. Like I've said, you could try managing what you need to do, what has to be helped, etc. But that's your personal live and none of my damn business so I'll have to leave that to myself.
My point there was thats a fairly common problem. The average gamer is in their mid 20's (This was a few years back its gone up slightly in that time).
Im not asking for the game to be made just so I can play it more. A vast ammount of players are in the same boat. They have jobs so can only play at set times, but then they have kids and housework and everything else thrown in as well.

This is the average gamer, the biggest group of gamers fall into this category.
So not allowing solo play for people who fall into that category (For the people who have suggested removing it) is instantly cutting sales. Even just having reduced functionality compared to playing with others cuts sales (Not to the same extent but still).

Anet is a business, the more copies of their games they sell, the more money they make. They arent stupid enough to cut off such a huge part of the market. Thats why they advertised it as a game you could play solo, thats why we have henchmen, thats why we now have heroes.

But currently solo play is still in the area of "reduced funcionality", even though they have everything already ingame to put it on the same level as playing with others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
That aside, I wouldn't consider GW an MMO. Not only that, but ANet has never specifically called GW an MMO, either (save for the only major resemblence stated above.)
GW is a CORPG, as you said Anet advertise it as that. Some of the main defining points of a CORPG are things like instanced gameplay and ability to solo.

For those people wanting it to be group only, your purchased the wrong game. However solo players dont have a problem with you grouping. When everyone gets to play how they want thats great. Yet you seem more than happy to stop us playing how we want. Just because you believe the game should only be played how you choose to, doesnt make it so. This is a game that was advertised as a game you could solo, that supported that with henchmen, that reinforced it with heroes and then added even more heroes and greater access to heroes.

To suggest that Anet doesnt support solo play is absurd. And considering they have gone all this length to support solo play it seems foolish to stop just short of having it at the same level as grouping.

Razz Thom

Razz Thom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Three Feet Below Sea [LevL]

D/Mo

Just my $0.02, but i think the best suggestion i have heard so far is to open up the 7 hero thing to those in HM or elite areas only. That way there is no one QQing about it makes it too easy now to get to the end game. And it gives extended content soloers a chance.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isileth
This is the average gamer, the biggest group of gamers fall into this category.
So not allowing solo play for people who fall into that category (For the people who have suggested removing it) is instantly cutting sales. Even just having reduced functionality compared to playing with others cuts sales (Not to the same extent but still).
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Is the average gamer based on the time that he can play or his overall experience in the game? Because heroes aren't terribly newbie friendly. If you're a person who hasn't been playing too long, henchies will probably be better than your heroes. It takes quite some time to get them to surpass henchmen builds.

In terms of time and real-life issues, than that I agree with. And that's why henchies are awesome: They're the closest thing to a pause button. Likewise, that's why heroes are utterly kickass: They're henchies who listen to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isileth
GW is a CORPG, as you said Anet advertise it as that. Some of the main defining points of a CORPG are things like instanced gameplay and ability to solo.
This is a pressing problem: Yes, ANet state that it's not an MMO and rather an RPG (CO to be specific.) But nearly everyone else is labelling it an MMO, and in that sense many people will be disappointed - not in terms of grouping/soloing but in many other areas of gameplay.

But you gotta admit that that's been a pretty big selling point: "A free to play 'MMO.'"

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Is the average gamer based on the time that he can play or his overall experience in the game? Because heroes aren't terribly newbie friendly. If you're a person who hasn't been playing too long, henchies will probably be better than your heroes. It takes quite some time to get them to surpass henchmen builds.
By average it means the average gamer. The average age of all gamers, the average life style etc etc. Nothing to do with which group spends the most time in games or anything like that. Because thats irrelevant. Ones a games sold its sold, actual time spent means nothing.

As for them taking some time to get skills for I agree. But you pick up heroes as you play, so getting a build for a single hero isnt to hard. Then when you get your next one you can work on sorting them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
In terms of time and real-life issues, than that I agree with. And that's why henchies are awesome: They're the closest thing to a pause button. Likewise, that's why heroes are utterly kickass: They're henchies who listen to you.
Exactly, they allow access to much more of the game.
With heroes it allows the same access but with even more of the game opened up in terms of builds and playstyles.
With 7 heroes it would be completely open in terms of build and playstyles, with the added bounus of some areas being accessible as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
This is a pressing problem: Yes, ANet state that it's not an MMO and rather an RPG (CO to be specific.) But nearly everyone else is labelling it an MMO, and in that sense many people will be disappointed - not in terms of grouping/soloing but in many other areas of gameplay.

But you gotta admit that that's been a pretty big selling point: "A free to play 'MMO.'"
The reason it gets labelled a MMO is because GW is the first (and only) CORPG. Its also very similar to a MMO on the surface, the differences are in the mechanics such as instancing.

There is also no doubt that it being free to play after the original purchase is a huge selling point. That however doesnt change what the game is.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

If Anet actually did support solo play, we wouldnt have loot scaling and we would have 7 heroes by now. End of discussion that Anet supports solo play. Maybe that should be reworded to 'we support nerfed solo play with a huge disadvantage to party play'

That makes more sense.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

It's ANet's "gentle nudge" (i.e. major kick in the balls) to get people to group together. Not saying it's good incentive.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

I still wont group with others no matter what.

Zeek Aran

Zeek Aran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Earth, sadly

BORK

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
If Anet actually did support solo play, we wouldnt have loot scaling and we would have 7 heroes by now. End of discussion that Anet supports solo play. Maybe that should be reworded to 'we support nerfed solo play with a huge disadvantage to party play'

That makes more sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Well that's what a QQerr is: they come onto forums and bitch and complain and horribly overexaggerate anything and everything bad about the game.
I'm sorry, but I had to point this out. *leaves thread again*

Edit for reply: Only for you bhaav, only for you.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeek Aran
I'm sorry, but I had to point this out. *leaves thread again*
Sorry, just have to point out that your still a troll on crack.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
If Anet actually did support solo play, we wouldnt have loot scaling and we would have 7 heroes by now. End of discussion that Anet supports solo play. Maybe that should be reworded to 'we support nerfed solo play with a huge disadvantage to party play'

That makes more sense.

Loot scaling has nothing to do with solo play....
Its the number of players in your party, AI or player.

And by your logic, if they supported PuGing they would have removed all solo play options.

Just because something isnt implemented doesnt mean they dont support it.
As it is they try and support both playstyles. Sadly solo play is a lesser option at this point.

Ideally both would be completely even, thats very hard to achieve however and most solo players would be very happy with 7 heroes.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Loot scaling has everything to do with solo play. I no longer 4-5k on my ecto less UW runs cos I get no drops

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Perhaps you are mistaking what we mean by solo play (I dont see how since we are discussing heroes but whatever)

By solo play we mean 1 player, 7 heroes (or h/h as it is currently)
We dont mean single player farming.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Single player farming is also solo play that I used to spend 70% of my gaming time doing. You are playing on your own, therefor it is solo play. Anet nerfed the brown poo out of it.

And dont confuse what we think with what you think.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Heroes and henchies also count as players in your party.

We are also not discussing solo farming. We are talking about having 7 heroes. Nothing to do with solo farming.


Oh and from the wiki incase you still think that only players are taken into consideration for loot scaling

"People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling. At the same time, they will notice that normal mode is now much easier to farm, and that the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before. Thus, people who play the game primarily in parties will simply make more money than they previously did."


oh and dont confuse what you think with whats actually true

Lord Sojar

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
Loot scaling has everything to do with solo play. I no longer 4-5k on my ecto less UW runs cos I get no drops
Boo hoo.... cry more. Go slit your wrists.

Zeek Aran

Zeek Aran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Earth, sadly

BORK

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Boo hoo.... cry more. Go slit your wrists.
*giggle*

Maybe if this gets more off-topic, it'll get closed.

Mineria

Mineria

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Denmark

Dragonslayers Of The [Mist]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Actually, it's not. It would be if there was another poll with the same questions and 1000 people against 7 heroes.
Actually not.
Since its only few people that come on forums and fan sites, the majority of the player base is staying in the game.
And that is not even something I assume, its as easy as looking on how many member forum x,y and z got.
And then look at the total amounts of people playing the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
Its very easy to create a full player party to vanquish every area in the game. /Sarcasm.
Yes it is, but not for you I guess.
I wonder why. /sarcasm

Mineria

Mineria

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Denmark

Dragonslayers Of The [Mist]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isileth
This is the average gamer, the biggest group of gamers fall into this category.
I would be careful about mentioning category's and relate them to the average gamer.
Cause then we are at the point that there should be something for every category, but not everything for every category.
And you know the funny thing is, that having it like that doesn't cut the sales.
You won't need to look further then World of Warcraft.
Just go and check what epics are and how you get them, and then take a peek at their player base and monthly income.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Boo hoo.... cry more. Go slit your wrists.
Your still smoking weed by the look of it.

Lord Sojar

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
Your still smoking weed by the look of it.
Drugs are bad! Bad Bhavv, bad! 7 Heroes are like drugs, just say no. /FAIL

oh, and didn't I tell you to go slit your wrists? Go on, it is fun. ANET will give you 7 heroes if you do it, I promise.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

You seriously suck rahja, its no wonder you got a ban from the game for racism lol.

Lord Sojar

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
You seriously suck rahja, its no wonder you got a ban from the game for racism lol.
Yes, because I clearly noted that I got banned for racism. Oh wait, I didn't say that. Fail again. Pass the 4th grade bud, then talk.

So, are you going to bleed for your "right" to have 7 heroes? I do suck, suck at life and I do nothing for Guru or the Guild Wars community. I am a selfish, solo playing jerkoff who only focuses on himself and is so conceited, peoples' eyes bleed just looking at me....wait, that sounds strangely similar to you... So your me? /wrists.

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Well this has drifted straight to stupid-ville, not that there's really a lot left to say on the subject anyway. The game's long term playability requires full hero parties in elite areas and HM. Absent them, a large portion of the player base will simply never play the high end content in the game. I guess that's the way some people want it, but I find it hard to believe Anet's underlying design for those additions was supposed to exclude the very solo players they started out courting.

I know there are some people that would just as soon see this discussion closed down, but can everyone else at least get back on topic and cut the personal crap?

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Discussing that I want 7 heroes doesnt mean Im going to bleed over it you freak. There are over 1000 players that have voted for 7 heroes so far, so you want all of them to cut their wrists over it? I dont care what you've done for the community, you are epic fail for actually wanting others to hurt themselves over a discussion.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Guys seriousely.

Just remember this is only a game, there is no need for all the personal insults. If you disagree with 7 heroes thats your opinion that you are fully entitled to, just as people are entitled to support it.



Hopefully a moderator will choose to clean this thread up and not close it. Its obviousely a very big issue, and as has been seen before when a thread has been closed many more spring up. Better to just keep it all in one place. But the crap has got to go.

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

some people are deliberately aiming to derail and sink this thread by the looks of it....

Lord Sojar

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
Discussing that I want 7 heroes doesnt mean Im going to bleed over it you freak. There are over 1000 players that have voted for 7 heroes so far, so you want all of them to cut their wrists over it? I dont care what you've done for the community, you are epic fail for actually wanting others to hurt themselves over a discussion.
I do so love when ignorance is bliss and people take sarcasm for point blank truth. Back on topic though, as Vinraith said, cut the crap.

In reference to players wanting 7 heroes.... I beg to differ. This majority you speak of are the forum going players, which account for perhaps 2% of the Guild Wars population (and at most 5%). To suggest that any form of poll on anything short of the official Guild Wars site would yield evidence to suggest the desire for 7 heroes would be fool hearty, and misplaced. Fansites are a tiny fraction of the Guild Wars population, and most importantly, most people that come to the fansites are there to complain about this and that. Thus, having 75% of a forum agreeing in regards to a complaint makes perfect sense.

Mineria

Mineria

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Denmark

Dragonslayers Of The [Mist]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinraith
Well this has drifted straight to stupid-ville, not that there's really a lot left to say on the subject anyway. The game's long term playability requires full hero parties in elite areas and HM. Absent them, a large portion of the player base will simply never play the high end content in the game. I guess that's the way some people want it, but I find it hard to believe Anet's underlying design for those additions was supposed to exclude the very solo players they started out courting.

I know there are some people that would just as soon see this discussion closed down, but can everyone else at least get back on topic and cut the personal crap?
Yeah, some reply's here that are far off topic.
Those should be moved into the "flamers corner" part of the forum.

I can see that it would be nice for you with a full hero party, but it wont be like having a good player party. Since the hero AI isn't the best when it comes to skill chaining.
On top of that the heroes don't have PvE only skills, which as well make a difference.
Plus that heroes wont know how and neither have the dicipline, to react and counter unpleasant situations.
You can of course run away with them, but that won't give you much when you are vanquishing.
And as I already said once, full hero party's won't kill players partying up with players. I think what I wrote above says enough why it won't.
Someone misunderstood my comment about heroes vs players and gave me the flame, so I didn't bother to explain it further at that point.
Just trying to tell you that you might not get what you think you get with a full hero party.
Maybe that is one of the reasons why Anet didn't add more, since it would dissapoint some players when all comes to all.

I tried D&D online for a little time ago, and they changed something in it.
The game is instanced a bit like GW, but they got a persistent world going between all the instances. No monsters there though.
The thing I took note off was that they made a choice for players upon entering an instance. You had the choice that said "solo".
Which means, you could enter the instance totally solo, and the monster AI plus number of monsters placed in the instance, changed upon that choice.
For those who want to play alone without others, I think implementing such a feature is a better choice.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Such a feature would be vastly different from what GW is though Mineria. That would take away the whole team build and team work aspect of the game. Builds would have to be very farming build like to work and such.

Plus thats a much bigger change. Adding the extra heroes at the end of the day isnt a huge change, simply because the system is already in place.

kvndoom

kvndoom

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Communistwealth of Virginia

Uninstalled

W/Mo

I wouldn't mind using henchies, if you could at least give them controls similar to heroes. You know, Fight, Guard, Avoid Combat. Even disable skills or use them on demand. Playing in Hard mode and having to watch Alesia run forward and start wanding level 26 monsters time and time again gets old.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvndoom
I wouldn't mind using henchies, if you could at least give them controls similar to heroes. You know, Fight, Guard, Avoid Combat. Even disable skills or use them on demand. Playing in Hard mode and having to watch Alesia run forward and start wanding level 26 monsters time and time again gets old.
Add in change their skill bars and you might be on to something

17eIvIoN

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

The Biggyverse

id support 7 hero's if they were banned from HA and GvG,

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Dont worry 17eIvIoN, there is already a hard limit on heroes in PvP. That wouldnt change.

This is purely a PvE change.

Traveller

Traveller

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Finland

League of Extraordinary Explorers [LOST] (my one man guild)

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Back on topic though, as Vinraith said, cut the crap.
I remember a time when you were actively organizing in-game community events for all to enjoy. When did you become so bitter?

On topic: Henchmen have generally pretty good builds anyway and you can do pretty much everything with 'em and three heroes. If we'd have 7 heroes, only difference is that there might be more room for experiencing and more varied team builds.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller
On topic: Henchmen have generally pretty good builds anyway
Devona
[skill]"Charge!"[/skill]
[skill]Counter Blow[/skill]
[skill]Healing Signet[/skill]
[skill]Irresistible Blow[/skill]
[skill]Mighty Blow[/skill]
[skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Thats 6 out of 8 skills. Not even a full bar.
Charge as the elite.
No IAS.

Lina
[skill]Aegis[/skill]
[skill]Protective Spirit[/skill]
[skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]
[skill]Shielding Hands[/skill]
[skill]Restore Life[/skill]
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill]

Again only 6 out of 8 skills.
No condition removal.
No hex removal.
No energy management.
One amazingly energy intensive bar.
AI that will happily spend all that energy within the first few seconds of a fight.


I could go on.

Even when they have good bars they are still fixed, 1 bar does not work everywhere. It also means you have to change your build around the henchmen.

And going past that, even if they all had perfect builds I would want 7 heroes. Because I want to be able to try out my own team builds, currently you have to cover for the henchmen and this resticts what you can run a lot.

Traveller

Traveller

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Finland

League of Extraordinary Explorers [LOST] (my one man guild)

Me/

Yet, I've used henchmen and completed Prophecies. And I'm not even a very good player. It's true that some of the early henchie builds are pretty abysmal, but they get better with later campaigns.

But I see your point and have cursed it myself many times - why does a warrior henchman have Charge! as her elite? Maybe it tells more about the difficulty, when you can still use henchmen and succeed.

mage767

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

I have said this before.

If you want 7 heroes for Normal-mode, something is seriously wrong with you - you probably need to go back to Shing Jea Monastery or wherever you started and begin training again.

If you want 7 heroes for Hard-mode, I agree we need all 7 heroes. Full team customization and placement against insanely buffed up enemies in EotN dungeons and elsewhere.

Isileth

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/W

@Traveller

Oh no one is saying you cant complete the game with them. Thats not the point.

7 heroes would just improve the game for solo players. Because you would then have the option to run team builds, try out new playstyles etc.
Right now, especially in HM and higher end areas you are forced into covering for your henchmen. Either because they are lacking in a certain area or their build just isnt suited for the current area. But because you have to take 4 builds that you cant control you end up changing the 4 you can. This really ends up limiting playstyles a lot.


@mage

Its not about difficulty in NM, its about having the freedom to run different builds rather than having 4 fixed builds and having to adjust the 4 you control to cover for the henchmen. That takes a lot of different playstyle variations and chucks them out the window.

Dev121

Dev121

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

If you cant do everything in this game in normal mode with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen then you really suck and 7 heroes wont help you because youll probably give every single one of them frenzy.

You should get 7 in HM just because some areas and missions are very painful and would help to have more suppourt. I also agree with the the fact that having 25 is stupildy pointless, anet just makes it sound cool. 25 HEROES! They never say, YOU CAN ONLY USE 3 THOU.

Rahja cheer up, its only a thread. Go listen to u2 and itll take you out of this dark phase.