you use pvp as an example an yet you dont mix it?
sure. ok.
how about using a pve example please? that IS what this discussion is about.
A discussion on 7 heroes
Sleeper Service
Crom The Pale
2 live players with 6 Heros is a vast and major difference over 1 player and 7 heros.
For the simple fact that you cut down on having to flag your party by 50%, reduce the number of skill bars your trying to manage and by allowing far greater combinations of stratagy.
Example: 1+7 , live war and a pary with a hero rit, monk, ele, necro, monk, paragon, ranger.
If I want to pull I either have to flag the party, flag the ranger and pick a target, attack, unflag, retreat OR I flag use my war, charge in drawing agro, unflag party, bring monks in with the right skills active to keep me alive and hope the nuker/rit/necro are using the right skills in the right order.
2 + 6, live war, live ranger, Hero monk,ele,necro,paragon,monk,rit
Ranger flags his heros and pulls, war is set to hold agro while he uses his monk/rit/pargon to buff himself. Ranger controls necro/ele for nuking and uses cripple/poison/dust trap to protect them and his monk.
Its clear that the second team will win the fight in half the time, take half the dmg and have much much less of a risk of over agro or bad skill timing(ie rit casts Brutal Weapon on war, monk casts vigorous spirit canceling weapon spell)
The only other main differance between the two is the 10-60minutes the one player will have to wait to find a second person willing to bring the right heros with the right build to accomplish what he wants to do in the time he has to do it.
For the simple fact that you cut down on having to flag your party by 50%, reduce the number of skill bars your trying to manage and by allowing far greater combinations of stratagy.
Example: 1+7 , live war and a pary with a hero rit, monk, ele, necro, monk, paragon, ranger.
If I want to pull I either have to flag the party, flag the ranger and pick a target, attack, unflag, retreat OR I flag use my war, charge in drawing agro, unflag party, bring monks in with the right skills active to keep me alive and hope the nuker/rit/necro are using the right skills in the right order.
2 + 6, live war, live ranger, Hero monk,ele,necro,paragon,monk,rit
Ranger flags his heros and pulls, war is set to hold agro while he uses his monk/rit/pargon to buff himself. Ranger controls necro/ele for nuking and uses cripple/poison/dust trap to protect them and his monk.
Its clear that the second team will win the fight in half the time, take half the dmg and have much much less of a risk of over agro or bad skill timing(ie rit casts Brutal Weapon on war, monk casts vigorous spirit canceling weapon spell)
The only other main differance between the two is the 10-60minutes the one player will have to wait to find a second person willing to bring the right heros with the right build to accomplish what he wants to do in the time he has to do it.
Sleeper Service
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
...
The only other main differance between the two is the 10-60minutes the one player will have to wait to find a second person willing to bring the right heros with the right build to accomplish what he wants to do in the time he has to do it. |
i have no doubt that if people could TEST out original teams builds with their heroes the overall effect would be positive in the long run. Even the most antisocial person is sociable. its in our nature.
leoknight
Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
I do not care about PuGs.
PuGs can go to hell (well, for the sake of this discussion). 7 heroes will also hurt guild and alliance teams. |
bhavv
I came up with a brilliant, and highly original warrior way for hero/hench in GWEN today. For a player that only plays caster classes himself and never plays melee (Hate playing dervs, warriors and sins) I consider this a personal sense of mastery of understanding the skills available in the game. The builds I tried are in the following screenshot:
Strength of Honour signet smiter (Signet of Judgement)
AoE hammer Goren (Earthshaker)
Sword Koss (Dragon Slash)
Talon and Devonna and the two monk henchies.
I originally made this as a joke build cos I was looking over the smiting skills and saw strength of honour and thought, Wouldnt it be great to use that and make it work? So off I went with the 4 warrior AI's and it was unbelievable pwnage (better then Searing flames).
Now you've probably read this and are asking yourself 'What is this noob talking about? What does this have to do with 7 heroes?'
I go to Prophecies or Factions or NF to Vanquish and remember my GW:EN warrior way. Guess what?
...
...
...
...
...
ALL THE FREAKING WARRIOR HENCHMEN USE CHARGE AS THEIR GOD DAMN ELITE.
(And P.S. What other people here think about my builds or the way I choose to play the game is completely Irrelevant, so dont bother with starting the Noob bashing cos you think my builds suck).
Now if I had 7 heroes, I would love to play around with this build and random combinations of 4 melee heroes. (3 warriors? 2 sins and 2 dervs? 2 Spirit strength rits? etc etc etc......). But I cant do this. I cant play and test my own combinations of builds and skill bars. I cant play my combination of which classes I want. I have to be constantly limited by four Henchmen.
Oh, and I never play with other people in the game and never will, because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it
<---- Legendary Guardian, Legendary carto, Legendary skill hunter, I'm Very Important with 17 titles maxed.
Strength of Honour signet smiter (Signet of Judgement)
AoE hammer Goren (Earthshaker)
Sword Koss (Dragon Slash)
Talon and Devonna and the two monk henchies.
I originally made this as a joke build cos I was looking over the smiting skills and saw strength of honour and thought, Wouldnt it be great to use that and make it work? So off I went with the 4 warrior AI's and it was unbelievable pwnage (better then Searing flames).
Now you've probably read this and are asking yourself 'What is this noob talking about? What does this have to do with 7 heroes?'
I go to Prophecies or Factions or NF to Vanquish and remember my GW:EN warrior way. Guess what?
...
...
...
...
...
ALL THE FREAKING WARRIOR HENCHMEN USE CHARGE AS THEIR GOD DAMN ELITE.
(And P.S. What other people here think about my builds or the way I choose to play the game is completely Irrelevant, so dont bother with starting the Noob bashing cos you think my builds suck).
Now if I had 7 heroes, I would love to play around with this build and random combinations of 4 melee heroes. (3 warriors? 2 sins and 2 dervs? 2 Spirit strength rits? etc etc etc......). But I cant do this. I cant play and test my own combinations of builds and skill bars. I cant play my combination of which classes I want. I have to be constantly limited by four Henchmen.
Oh, and I never play with other people in the game and never will, because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it
<---- Legendary Guardian, Legendary carto, Legendary skill hunter, I'm Very Important with 17 titles maxed.
bryann380
Can't believe this topic is still open.
Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?
Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?
Crom The Pale
Bhavv, I would sugest going with a Rit and Brutal weapon, but the hench monks will just cast enchants and kill it......
I know the feeling you have about the creative combos we can dream up but never actually use.
Bryann380: this topic is open because people wish to talk about it regardless of whether or not Anet changes things or leaves them as is.
I know the feeling you have about the creative combos we can dream up but never actually use.
Bryann380: this topic is open because people wish to talk about it regardless of whether or not Anet changes things or leaves them as is.
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bryann380
Can't believe this topic is still open.
Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further? |
To make this game perfect for solo play, all they have to do is allow 7 heroes, and of any class. People will be playing PVE constantly then, never getting bored.
I myself want a full 8 elly team with elly healers XD.
pamelf
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Now if I had 7 heroes, I would love to play around with this build and random combinations of 4 melee heroes. (3 warriors? 2 sins and 2 dervs? 2 Spirit strength rits? etc etc etc......). But I cant do this. I cant play and test my own combinations of builds and skill bars. I cant play my combination of which classes I want. I have to be constantly limited by four Henchmen. Oh, and I never play with other people in the game and never will, because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it |
ChaoticCoyote
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pamelf
I totally agree. Only allowing 3 heroes severely limits my creativity. What i'd love to see is allowing 7 heroes, but also setting up team build templates. Seriously, that would just be the ultimate!
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Adding full hero parties would IMPROVE the social atmosphere by keeping people like me playing -- I can't be very social if I've quit playing.
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bryann380
Can't believe this topic is still open.
Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further? |
TheLichMonky
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bryann380
Can't believe this topic is still open.
Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further? |
Uhh because A-net makes horrible decisions? After all this time, I was HOPING for a fix of skills, or the rubber band bug, or SOMETHING that doesn't completely fail ;( BUT you know what they did? They added a reporting system, YaY /sarcasm
Shadowspawn X
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Because if we press the issue enough then we may eventually persuade them to allow seven heroes.
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Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X
Not really players don't want it either. This is just another auction house issue.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Update - Thursday, August 09, 2007
# Ancestors' Rage: This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Anguish: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Defiant Was Xinrae: decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds; increased duration to 5..15 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Disenchantment: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Dissonance: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Wanderlust: This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Wielder's Strike: This skill now causes Exhaustion. # Xinrae's Weapon: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge to 10 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Update - Thursday, August 16, 2007
# Ancestors' Rage: decreased casting time to .25 seconds; removed Exhaustion; functionality changed to: "For 1 second, nothing happens. When this Enchantment ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 30..130 lightning damage."
# Anguish: reverted skill to its original behavior. # Defiant Was Xinrae: reverted skill to its original behavior. # Disenchantment: reverted skill to its original behavior. # Dissonance: reverted skill to its original behavior. # Wanderlust: reverted skill to its original behavior. # Wielder's Strike: increased recharge time to 6 seconds; decreased unconditional damage to 5..50; decreased conditional damage to 10..40; removed exhaustion. # Xinrae's Weapon: reverted skill to its original behavior. |
wilebill
How about just one more hero? I don't see how that would hurt grouping any further, and it would add much more flexibility.
I would be happy with just one more hero.
I would be happy with just one more hero.
Sleeper Service
This is not a petition, and neither is it a rant against Anet. This Thread is a discussion on 7 heroes, nuance mon ami.
I myself read pretty much every single post that is made here and have seen some excellent points made for and against, the probable reasons behind Anets decision for not enabling this feature and am conforted in my GAMERS vision of the game concerning team-builds and PUGing.
All in all it (still and hopefully will not) has not degenerated into your usually cry for 7heroes thread.
Even if it was closed someone would start a new thread. we need to vent our viewpoint and discuss on this it's probably one of the major issues in GW1 for a lot of players.
I myself read pretty much every single post that is made here and have seen some excellent points made for and against, the probable reasons behind Anets decision for not enabling this feature and am conforted in my GAMERS vision of the game concerning team-builds and PUGing.
All in all it (still and hopefully will not) has not degenerated into your usually cry for 7heroes thread.
Even if it was closed someone would start a new thread. we need to vent our viewpoint and discuss on this it's probably one of the major issues in GW1 for a lot of players.
the_jos
Quote:
| ALL THE FREAKING WARRIOR HENCHMEN USE CHARGE AS THEIR GOD DAMN ELITE. |
And I don't oppose at all to that, I'd even help thinking about better builds if someone asks me.
Quote:
| How about just one more hero? I don't see how that would hurt grouping any further, and it would add much more flexibility. |
spiritofdead
I highly doubt Anet will pay any attention on this matter since they had decided not to increase the number of heroes quite a while ago already. It is too bad they did not allow people to bring more than 3 heroes in the group though.
zwei2stein
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
...because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it...
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Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Kinda ironic from someone who uses textbook SF build (minus one skill).
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As I've said before, I think it's just too unpredictable what will happen with 7 hero slots. Will it hurt pugging or do nothing to it? Will it encourage people to solo, or would people still dismiss the AI as "retardedlol" and still go with pugs? Can't tell, and that to me is possibly the best reason I can come up for not having any.
Longasc
It is unlikely that ANet will do much for GW1 anymore at all.
They decided against 7 heroes, and there are many open issues that will not be taken care of besides this one. Some feel very strongly about this issue, but this debate is going on for so long by now that ANet does not care about it anymore.
They could implement it easily, maybe not flags for hero no. 4-7, but they could. They just won't, for design reasons and because they already decided against 7 hero teams. People already explained their possible reasons for this.
Some people want 7 heroes, others are against it, most are indifferent. But does anybody believe ANet will really DO something about it, now that they play the "all devs are working hard on GW2 card" for almost all suggestions?
There is almost no chance that 7 player hero parties are going to happen.
They decided against 7 heroes, and there are many open issues that will not be taken care of besides this one. Some feel very strongly about this issue, but this debate is going on for so long by now that ANet does not care about it anymore.
They could implement it easily, maybe not flags for hero no. 4-7, but they could. They just won't, for design reasons and because they already decided against 7 hero teams. People already explained their possible reasons for this.
Some people want 7 heroes, others are against it, most are indifferent. But does anybody believe ANet will really DO something about it, now that they play the "all devs are working hard on GW2 card" for almost all suggestions?
There is almost no chance that 7 player hero parties are going to happen.
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Kinda ironic from someone who uses textbook SF build (minus one skill).
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http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10200208
I play every elly bar thinkable. SF is just great, doesnt mean I cant play anything else.
When doing gaurdian of elona I was E/Rt healing in at least half of the missions, and Playing warder and water in a few (Water snarer for the listen to dunkoro mission, Ward against ham and stability warder vs tortureweb dryders, Geo spiker with Obi flame, Energy Blast, Magnetic surge vs abbadon for armor ignoring damage etc etc....). I finished Gaurdian of Elona in 3 days with the help of a guildie with full unlocks and equipped heroes like me XD.
SF is just standard in NM though cos I like playing it. Whats wrong with that? Would it be any better if I just blacked my skill bar out in paint?
Torino Cowell
7 heroes? i don't think so , 3 heroes is enough , otherwise that just takes the point out of henchman and the balence won't be right for the other guild wars. this would also discourage people from starting with the other 2 guild wars , but going to NF instead . this should not happen
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Torino Cowell
this would also discourage people from starting with the other 2 guild wars , but going to NF instead .
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bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Torino Cowell
7 heroes? i don't think so , 3 heroes is enough , otherwise that just takes the point out of henchman and the balence won't be right for the other guild wars. this would also discourage people from starting with the other 2 guild wars , but going to NF instead . this should not happen
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Anyway, who cares if no one ever lets mhenlo in their team anymore? Its not exactly the end of GW, it doesnt cause any imbalance if player X decides to solo the game with heroes instead of henchmen.
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
I Would not mind that at all and do see added value without hurting teaming too much.
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Most people who play with PUGs already think that their fellow PUG members are already better than AI, and they will go on living in ignorance of the fact that heroes are better than the vast majority of players.
the_jos
Quote:
| or would people still dismiss the AI as "retardedlol" and still go with pugs? |
Take bhavv's post #489, which in my opinion shows some of the power of AI when the right skills are combined.
And I think a lot of experienced players would think the same.
I have this nice guildie that plays H&H a lot.
He knows how to combine them and when I asked his opinion on 7 heroes his responce was "3 heroes + 4 hench work great, 7 heroes would be ... wow".
Quote:
| Most people who play with PUGs already think that their fellow PUG members are already better than AI... |
Many see PuGs as a good way to add more heroes to the team.
Except when running full human teams, but that's only a small part of pugging.
Full human teams are mostly in those situations where a lot of humans fail when playing H&H or when people are teaming up for fun.
Star Gazer
simply put: pugging will never change. Hard Mode with 2 henchie monks (which, btw, they spam Healing Breeze + Orison of Healing) just simply isn't enough. With the playerbase decreasing due to the "been there, done that" feeling, there will be a need for more heros. Pugging will only last so long. Atleast with 7 heros, you will be able to actually play some of the areas without worrying about not being able to. If it wasn't for Sab's synergizing 3xNec builds, I would have never done HM.
I don't see why it is a bad idea to not implement 7 heros for hard mode use only. It wouldn't destroy the economy, and loot scaling has done away with pretty much farming in general.
I refuse to get into a "pug", with a 12 year old brat that thinks because hes wearing FoW (because of mommy's credit card) thinks he is better than I am. If there wasn't so many childish and immature players out there, maybe pugging would have been a way to go. Heros = More options for players. Getting rid of immature brats = more options for pugs.
I don't see why it is a bad idea to not implement 7 heros for hard mode use only. It wouldn't destroy the economy, and loot scaling has done away with pretty much farming in general.
I refuse to get into a "pug", with a 12 year old brat that thinks because hes wearing FoW (because of mommy's credit card) thinks he is better than I am. If there wasn't so many childish and immature players out there, maybe pugging would have been a way to go. Heros = More options for players. Getting rid of immature brats = more options for pugs.
bhavv
I added 6 people that were long time friends since I started playing GW to my friends list a few weeks back. Guess what? They dont play the game anymore.
Im currently in between playing and quitting, theres very little left in the game that I enjoy, and when I find another game to play I will leave to play i.
Eg I took a 3 week break ages ago when I went a Civ 4 spree, a 2 week break a couple of weeks back to play Oblivion.
The problem there is that the single player games have an end. Or you get bored of them quickly. So I lod up guildwars and roll a sac monk in RA because theres nothing else there for me to enjoy. I've tried vanquishing and quite a few areas with H/H (about 25 throughout all three campaigns). But I simply dont enjoy it while being limited by retard henchmen with stupid skillsets that I dont enjoy playing with.
'Ogden Stonehealer is Using Strength of Honor on Little Thom!'
'Little Thom is Using Charge'
'Cynn is using Mind Burn!'
'Mhenlo is Using Healing Breeze!'
'Dunham is Using Crippling Anguish!'
'Aidan is Using Practiced Stance!'
'Claude is Using Grenth's Balance!'
Seriously, what a waste of party slots.
Although there are some useful / great henchmen outside of Gwen :
Sogolon and Herta in NF - usefull but not perfect.
Erys Vasburg, Daeman, seaguard gita in Cantha - Near perfect, just need GoH on gita and a different Res, or no res at all.
And also most of the Gwen henchies are perfect. Anet can make good henchmen, but prophecies and 50% of cantha suffer from crap useless ones.
Im currently in between playing and quitting, theres very little left in the game that I enjoy, and when I find another game to play I will leave to play i.
Eg I took a 3 week break ages ago when I went a Civ 4 spree, a 2 week break a couple of weeks back to play Oblivion.
The problem there is that the single player games have an end. Or you get bored of them quickly. So I lod up guildwars and roll a sac monk in RA because theres nothing else there for me to enjoy. I've tried vanquishing and quite a few areas with H/H (about 25 throughout all three campaigns). But I simply dont enjoy it while being limited by retard henchmen with stupid skillsets that I dont enjoy playing with.
'Ogden Stonehealer is Using Strength of Honor on Little Thom!'
'Little Thom is Using Charge'
'Cynn is using Mind Burn!'
'Mhenlo is Using Healing Breeze!'
'Dunham is Using Crippling Anguish!'
'Aidan is Using Practiced Stance!'
'Claude is Using Grenth's Balance!'
Seriously, what a waste of party slots.
Although there are some useful / great henchmen outside of Gwen :
Sogolon and Herta in NF - usefull but not perfect.
Erys Vasburg, Daeman, seaguard gita in Cantha - Near perfect, just need GoH on gita and a different Res, or no res at all.
And also most of the Gwen henchies are perfect. Anet can make good henchmen, but prophecies and 50% of cantha suffer from crap useless ones.
Hott Bill
I would like all heros to view the current energy, and hp of my entire party.
ChaoticCoyote
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Those of us who play H/H are not going to play with PUGs either way.
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ANet's stance will make the game LESS SOCIAL because people like me will quit playing period...
...the hard deadline is the introduction of the "Bonus" missions. If full hero parties haven't been implemented by then, I'm gone. And no, you can't have my stuff.
Melon
7 Heroes for president.
zwei2stein
"If you vote for me all your dreams will come true."
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
I for one would not dismiss AI as retarted.
Take bhavv's post #489, which in my opinion shows some of the power of AI when the right skills are combined. And I think a lot of experienced players would think the same. |
Crom The Pale
Hero's are only as good as the player who equips thier skil bars.
Given the numerous titles now in GW and the grind involved in almost all of them it is very limiting that we have to use only 3heros.
How many times have you been in a town and seen somebody spaming for a pug to vanquish a zone? Or Cartographer? Skill Capping?
There are a few, but only a very very small number of the still large population out there.
Given the numerous titles now in GW and the grind involved in almost all of them it is very limiting that we have to use only 3heros.
How many times have you been in a town and seen somebody spaming for a pug to vanquish a zone? Or Cartographer? Skill Capping?
There are a few, but only a very very small number of the still large population out there.
Vinraith
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Speak for yourself. I PuG (usually helping on the difficult missions), play solo with H/H, and buddy gamed (note past tense) with my wife.
ANet's stance will make the game LESS SOCIAL because people like me will quit playing period... ...the hard deadline is the introduction of the "Bonus" missions. If full hero parties haven't been implemented by then, I'm gone. And no, you can't have my stuff. |
the_jos
Quote:
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How many times have you been in a town and seen somebody spaming for a pug to vanquish a zone? Or Cartographer? Skill Capping? There are a few, but only a very very small number of the still large population out there. |
For example, yesterday we as 4 guildies took a HM player I met recently for a vanquish.
I don't mind doing those kinds more often, given that I have played with them before in a HM mission so I know they would not be a burden on a vanquish.
And I know there are quite a number of people that are interested in playing HM once in a while with a team but can't because it's too hard to team up.
Star Gazer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
And I know there are quite a number of people that are interested in playing HM once in a while with a team but can't because it's too hard to team up.
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ChaoticCoyote
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinraith
The simple fact is that between now and GW2 they're either going to have to let us have 7 heroes or the elite areas and various swaths of hardmode are basically going to become unplayable. As the population of the game shrinks there are going to be even fewer people in these (often already deserted) areas.
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ANet obviously has no problem relegating many areas of the game to the dust-bin.
the_jos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Star Gazer
who wants to take that mending wammo to do lair of the forgotten. i, for one, do not want to. It is the idiots in this game (and I do say idiots because they cannot be taught, either willingly or unwillingy) that ruin pugging in HM. Not heros.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
given that I have played with them before in a HM mission so I know they would not be a burden on a vanquish.
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I meet those idiots quite frequent, can pick them out fast and just don't add them to my friends list.
So they don't go with us (guild) on vanquish.
Furtermore, while you don't care about teaming, that does not mean no-one cares.
I don't depend on PuG, I can do without them (gg HM guild, alliance with HM focus and friends list).
But I like to team up with them sometimes, just to help them out on parts I know are difficult for a lot of players.
Hoping to make them somewhat better players (some will, some won't).
And some go to friends list and get an invite to join a vanquish.
And that won't be the idiot wammo.
Quote:
| Those areas are already unplayable due to population loss and spreading. |