A discussion on 7 heroes

Let the npc bears have their 7 or 12 or 36 or however many heroes they think they'll need to do anything and everything they think they need to do to farm all the cute little titles and get all the little digital toys they think they want. This game was already ruined for those that preferred pve in a multiplayer atmosphere the day heroes were introduced anyway.

This poll more reflects the amount of people who left the game out of frustration for not being able to get a group and rightfully refused to play H/H. All that's left are the pvpers and those who, amazingly, actually enjoy watching npc's battle npc's.

Developmental shortcomings or impassable roadblocks? Bear in mind what we're dealing with here: an online only free-to-play RPG. There's only so much that you can provide with servers online 24/7 and no subscription fees.

And yes, ANet *has* addressed these problems in GW2: save for a few end mission areas, the game is going to be entirely soloable.

First, we can't use the term "solo farmers" to those who are soloers, since it's addressing an entirely different crowd. Secondly, those "soloers" have been soloing in the game with henchies long before heroes came into view.

And the problem I'm seeing - much, much more than the "problem" of heroes - is the inevitable fact that games get old, coupled with the fact that the game is very big.

Why: To make a much more involving, fulfilling and deeper game for those who truly wish to dedicate their time to it. Spending a huge chunk of time researching classes, builds, skills, etc. In general, it's to improve upon the game. There's really not a whole lot to say besides that, in all honesty.

Why not: Heroes are by far from being a "pick up and go" portion of the game. As is, 3 heroes don't just "gust up" random players who want to try it. It's probably safe to assume most players would put bars on heroes that are even worse than henchies. They'll only be as "good and op" as you yourself are. They're only as good as you make them, and if you don't make them good, they'll suck - and if they suck, they're not going to be appealing to the majority populous.

Fair enough. I'd say you are one of the few legit posters in this thread. I really only entered this thread because I thought many of the arguments were bad. I also dislike the direction the game has gone. But I suppose nothing can be done about that now, so adding 7 heroes wouldn't really affect me nowadays.

"Your skill will be your Legend"

It takes more skill to setup and play 7 heroes then it takes to join and play in a PuG. It also takes more time to complete missions with PuGs then it takes with H/H. More heroes would serve the slogan better.

There is something to evaluate, the cooperative experience diminished, or got lost, and it is not because of heroes and henchmen, but sooner because participants had different goals and expectations. PuGs were taken over and deployed by those who had their goals set and their targets marked, at the cost of those who sought a the cooperation and shared participation of the story and world.

You have it backwards, I couldn't care less about the titles, it's the title pushers and greenstar chasers that ruined the cooperative aspects of the game and drove me and other players to use the Henchmen, and later heroes.

Then you should have let the other players enjoy the game as well without pushing them to meet your goals. Goodbye.

A large reason I bought this game 40 months ago was for the multiplayer aspect, and you know what? I had a lot of fun with that... while it lasted. I now play with either H/H or my guild, 7 heroes wouldn't change that, I'd still only play with 7H or my guild. PUGs are dead, they died once the game got so big (3 continents with tons of content, plus elite areas, not to mention heroes), everyone still playing is so spread out that your best hope is your Guild/Alliance/Friendlist, and 7 heroes wouldn't change that. If this was early 2006 and we had 3 heroes (which we didn't back then), I would not support 7 heroes. But it's late 2008, and the game has changed... a lot, and I think 7 heroes would be a nice addition at this point.

Just my 2¢

The hardest part is that we have a reception and somewhat of an end product (a lot of people are still playing GW, so not a *full* endproduct): A lot of people grouped in the past, and now not so much. The hardest part is that there's nothing that can fully explain it, and I don't think even ANet would be able to fully, if at all, figure it out.

But that's what this forum's for!

you missed the point, cause you didnt read the last few post before that. Its easier to just add in H/H then to find 7 guild members. I also say a few post back before that 1 that a good guild group will always be better but its still easy with h/h and easier to just add 7NPCs a go.


And? The game is not that hard to learn I dont know why so many people keep saying how "every 1 at this game sucks" there is a very big skill curve in this game, but pve is still easy and unchanging and today few people get stuck anywhere in the game.

they are just skills, and they don't add a BIG change in how long its going to take to complete the missions quest or w/e.

you dont even know what my views are on heros from what you have been typing

Heros will make the game easier, and making the game any easier is bad cause it already is easy or sloppy content. It does not take long to do any of the missions, quest VQs "some Vqs are hard but most are easy" and the few things like DoA, FoW, UW etc, that are hard or at least fun, will become much easier for people and more solo friendly. Right now the game has become a grind, something it was not when they made it.

Also theres no reason to add 7heros, If your saying "so i can make team builds" you already can do that you just have it in your mind that some how your to good to play with other players or your so helpless about when you have dinner you cant play with other players, If that 10mins that it takes for you to eat, eats up so much time that you cant play with other players, then why are you even playing and worried about it? Theres also no reason why you cant find people to play with, there's tons of people just on guru looking for people that play on non-US times, hell most the thread i see looking for people, are looking for people that play at odd times.


Games like GW die when people stop seeing other players, more people started to play solo when they added 3heros and more will solo if they add 7heros and you'll see less people and more people will leave. If the "game is dying" does not mean you need to change anything, its just time to move on, the game has been out for over 3years now anyway.

Again: it's easier *only* depending on the resources you have at hand. Most people do not have those resources.

Yet again, easier for you =/= easier for everyone. That's the only thing I'm going on because nothing else has merit . "Everyone i know says the same thing", well I could say the exact opposite thing, "everyone *I* know finds it hard", and it would still hold the same grain of salt. The comment "few people get stuck anywhere in the game" is entirely an oversight since you don't know everyone in the game (obviously).

"Save Yourselves!" is a BIG change from "Watch Yourselves!" "There's nothing to fear!" is a HUGE change from "Incoming!". Pain Invertor is a TOTAL boost compared to Prot. Spirit. List goes on...

So answer me this: Are you now totally for crappy and sloppy difficulty increases? Because that's exactly what those four henchmen are doing. You cannot be anti-HM difficulty implementation and be all for the "difficulty" henchmen enforce.

And it yet again comes down to what I said that the beginning of the post: Heroes are not universal "win" buttons. If you give a full team of heroes to a player with very little experience and skills unlocked only for his class (i.e. the majority of the playerbase), he's not going to have much success. 7 heroes will only make it easier for those who are knowledgeable and collective about the game - and they should be rewarded for that.

I know, of course I want it for free but I'm a realist it will require some sort of development time even if it is a flip of a switch.

Yep but it didn't mean anything at the time because I hadn't played the game yet, I was still standing in the store and I was looking for what I wanted not what they wanted to try and sell me.

If anything is killing PuGs it will be all the solo farmers, I mean the type that go down alone with no H/H at all to places like UW etc, because there isolating them self from the player base.

Brought about might I add by the stupid concept of loot scaling, back in the day and still today to some extent it is far more profitable to farm alone than with anyone, it should be more profitable to "play" the game as a group of people not as a lone warror so too speak, as 1 player you should get sod all as 8 it should be raining gold on your head, 8 being 8 players not H/H and with H/H you should get something in the middle.

If anything is killing PUGs, what's killing them are the average PUG players. It's stress, and a game isn't supposed to be stressful.

That too I think that is a growing stigma of any online game and unless properly addressed will be there ultimate down fall, PerfectWorld addresses this by placing GM's in there game so that if you have any problem be it with the game or a person it can be swiftly dealt with and can be seen to be dealt with, in GW your never quite sure that your /report had any effect what so ever.

dont have what? a few skills and wiki?



people get better, they don't get worse. What happens when all the people you know get good at the game?



I dont remember saying any thing about WY or incoming, the only skill i can think about wanting to have is SY, the others are "ok" but nothing OP. You can have SY anyway w/o heros using pve skills. With or with out pve skills the mission/quest/whatever is still easy.



Nope, the sloppy content I'm talking about is all the updates with in the last month or 2 and HM. The devs did a really good job the 1st 2years of GW, but I think they started f***ing up. I think the H/H is a better idea than 7heros, cause it give you 3 people you can mod, and then 4 every day fighters. It makes heros more important imo, and gives people a reason to play with other players cause they cant do some areas with just H/H.


yea and it will not be long till all the "less knowledgeable players" learn the game.


if your getting stressed out over a game, go outside

Maybe quicker yes, but you don't need 7 guild members. You need 1 or 2, completed with heroes and some PvE skills. That makes an awesome party.

I'd have to agree with Bryant Again on that statement.

I beg to differ.

Some missions can take hours. That's long for someone who only has an hour if that each evening. And what's grind have to do with that?

Dinner in 10 minutes? I take my time preparing a good meal every night, and like to sit down with my girlfriend and have a nice conversation over dinner. That's more important to me than GW, so I can't just drop everything and enter a mission any time I want to. And I never said I couldn't find people to play with, I have a great guild with great people, but sometimes you just need a mission or vanquish that nobody else needs or has time for at the moment or just can't do yet. 7heroes would be greatly appreciated in such cases. I've considered asking my guildies to loan me their 3 heroes, so I have 6 heroes with my preferred builds.

They started playing solo because the game is huge, people are spread out, people have left because they've moved on. If someone doens't want to move on yet, they should have the possibility to play solo.

I have to agree on Bryant's entire post

Enough of that BS, you're being either stupid or ignorant. Reversal of Damage, Lightbringers Gaze etc are immensely powerful compared to normal skills, not "ok". That you don't know or realize this is your problem, not ours.

He means that "gogogogogogo rez me noob" is a stressed-out way to play, and that's the pug way of playing.

In other words don't bother playing at all, good got it.

No, in other words: don't bother playing with PUGs if it stresses you out, use guildmates and/or heroes instead. But not everyone is in a guild, or feels the need for one. Hence the want for 7 heroes.
And I agree with Numa Pompilius. PvE skills make a LOT of difference. I always carry Pain Inverter and "Finish Him!", which leaves me a third optional PvE slot that I choose depending on the area/mission I'm going to do. Ever tried killing a mob of Jotuns in HM? A true pain in the ***, but bring some minions, swarm the Jotun, cast Pain Inverter: one Giant Stomp and he's dead instantly. Do not tell me you can do that faster without PvE skills, because then you're simply lying.

bring a water ele :P~ in HM beats any pvp skills imo

Vanquished the every area in the game and I'm for 7 heroes not ageist them, I was being sarcastic.

Don't have the knowledge, time, experience, the etc. etc. If it were all so easy we would be seeing 0 people in outposts. Fortunately, what you say is contrary to the fact.

Never did I mention "players getting worse". I'm talking at the speed at which they learn, period.. Besides that, I'll get back to this further below.

SIIIIIGH. The WY! and Incoming! examples were to strengthen my point in regards to the overpoweredness of the PvE skills, something you have yet to refute.

What I originally pointed out was this: You cannot be against the method of difficulty HM provides and be all for the difficulties Henchmen may provide. Fortunately, you've just now realized this and completely overhauled your view once again in the following quote:

"Incentive" and "encouragement" via forceful limitation? Insanely poor design. You encourage people to play with others by providing healthy benefits, not by restricting gameplay. Fix what's wrong in pugs, don't move towards less alternatives.

And no shit it makes "heroes more important". The less there are the more emphasis is put on them. You could say the exact same thing about just 1 hero. The problem with those "everyday fighters" is that they're static and unchanging i.e. dogshit boring.

Because everyone has the exact same learning curve, correct? (hint: no). Some learn faster than others, some slower, and some don't even learn at all.

I play a game for fun, not to be cussed at, ridiculed, and harassed. If you consider all of that "enjoyable" then go to a doctor.

Sounds like you are being selfish just because you belong to TAM. Not everyone is in an active guild and many outposts in this game have become ghost town and I am not saying this because I am anti-social. I dont even mind if they setup a system where if nobody is going for that specific mission that you are interested in, let the player fill it up with heroes, otherwise humans players have the priority. But as it is now, you are stuck in elite missions if nobody is there to party you unless you plan to DoA with only 3 heroes. This is why I hate elite missions because you can't H/H there.

What is with ANet and all that extra hero like MOX? It doesn't even help! They still dont get it when you can only have 3 heroes per person. Furthermore, many of popular builds for elite missions rely on everyone bringing overpowered PvE skills (e.g. cryway). A human team can have a max of 24 PvE skills while a H/H can only have a max of 3 PvE skills. This is totally unbalanced and unfair. Many players have quit because they completed the game and got bored, without even experiencing elite content because these areas are ghost towns and by not allowing a full hero party, ANet devs wasted their efforts creating these areas that most players dont even get to experience. The design is almost as stupid as Faction elite missions when it was first released.

The game design pushes you to grind the same game content over and over, while restricting certain elite areas to only certain guilds. It is just dumb.

current design not only does that but also rewards players who do this (a point i was making when using ursan as an example but some people are clearly able to jabber without engaging their brain).

Which is dumb for a game like this. People enjoy playing the way that they like, and not FORCED into a certain mode of playstyle.

This is also why the Factions elite missions fell apart, previously ANet was just pushing people to join large faction farming alliances, especially when faction farming alliance leaders started allocating faction quotas to their members. That didn't turn out too well either.

It isn't dumb at all. HoM is a perfect example of grind being rewarded. But that is off topic. This idea of being forced to do anything is ridiculous. You bought the game, so you play the game as it is or you don't play it. You aren't forced to play the game.

That would have been a logical interpretation of what I said if the only way to play was with pugs.

Fortunately that's not the case.

That's faulty logic would you buy a chocolate bay in cased in a safe that you don't know the combination too, sure it's a challenge to open but you'd buy the one that easier to open first or maybe that is a little too fuzzy for you to understand, I'll put it another way, if you buy something you use it if you cannot use it you wasting your money, being prevented from doing things which you and I paid for is not getting your moneys worth, it's almost theft and there EULA reads like a who's who of a dictatorship which oddly you didn't read or get to read when buying it.

At any rate all this is by and large academic at this point the rate the US economy is going there won't be a GW2 or an ArenaNet to speak of anyway, much less any servers to play on, yay I get my wish

Yep, all the people that want full hero parties should just leave.
I mean that will surely help getting a party for the people that want to play with other people.


I don't see how anyone that is all for playing with people can oppose additions that would keep other people playing.

7 heroes is not enough. Give me 11 so I can do Urgoz and Deep myself!

/sarcasm

But now seriously, there are NO reasons, not a single 1 good reason for increasing the number of heroes per player. "I want my game eaaazierrr" is not a good reason.
And at the same time there are many strong reasons Against it.

Anet should better concentrate at making GW a better multiplayer game.

Close to what I've already done, I pretty much just log on to keep it updated and see if (a) friend is on to catch up with probably should use MSN instead because we aren't playing together or anything.

It's not that I don't want to play it's that I cannot because the goals I have cannot be attached without human help or 7 heroes so unless that happens I'm gone, unless the wife decides to play which I'll play with her, but she barely plays once a month.

Pretty much waiting 4 days for a group to do slaves was the last straw for me, and no still haven't done it.

"Charge!"
Because warriors aren't meant to do damage right?

Play solo or in a party
Go it alone, join with other players, or recruit a party of henchmen that you control.

we want more heros, more heros , more heros! tyvm

when you have a poll of 700+ vs 100 plus, you know which why to go Arena Net give use 7 heros please!

If you made a poll asking players if they wanted something to be easier or to get something for free you'd certainly get a 700:100-like result aswell. But that has nothing to do with making the game better.

Thankfully the devs are better at game design than the "I want moar easy" masses, and are doing it right with setting balance and power level of henchmen (builds far from optimal) and heroes (all custom builds except imba pve skills). And thankfully they go the right direction with GW2 reducing the number of npc companions to just 1.

These are the same game designers that left Usran for over a year before being changed, when it was obviously over powered from the begging.

The same game designers that made SF when it was obvious from the get go that it could be abused.

The same game designers that keep creating childish gimmiks in hope to keep some players in there game, M.o.X

The are not the gods of game design you think they are or they think they are, in the grand scale of things there pretty poor.

either way your living in a dream world once the US economy crashes you can wave goodbye to ArenaNet and there game.

You are blond right ?????

Its not to make it easyer....
NO its just to have more fun in creating builds en play the game as WE want it.
Not doing it becouse people wont make pugs any more is no reason to.
couse the only nice pugs we have now, are the pugs of our own guilds or alliances. And thos wil stay.
But in the meanwhile in al those empty towns. it is more fun to build your own
hero team instead of taking (by all respect) hench wich we like less.

.... it doesnt effect the market couse it wont give you more drops.
.....The Guild/Alliance pugs wil always stays couse they are the best.
.....It wont give you that much of a advantage instead of hench.
.....it WILL make your group looking awesome with Vekk, Golem, and so on
.....It WILL keep people play GW for a much longer time.

......It !!!!! will just make a lot of us Very happy..

No YOU give us VERY good reasons why we shouldnt have 7 hero's

They are good enough to have created the 3 GW campaigns and those are generally considered (by the industry and players) to be top 10 MMO.

~ and don't worry about the American economy until Walmart posts it's results.

It is dumb because limiting elite area access according to the whimps of a particular player, in this case the faction farming alliance leader, is bound to fail sooner or later. Months of hardwork from ANet's devs down the drain because they handed the access key, to the elite content, to a kid.

Without opening up elite areas, there WILL BE a limited number of players in the areas! It is no surprise that they become ghost towns. ANet tried to salvage them by creating passage scrolls later on but it is too little too late.

7 heroes is still much weaker than 7 players. You are still limited to 3 PvE skills per team compared to 24 PvE skills per team, difference by a factor of 8! Not to mention the fact that you have to spend all your gold to rune and equip your own heroes versus simply getting guild members to help you out.

Using heroes is only a last resort because very few people are interested to party up with random players in elite missions, most of the time you cant even find 7 other human players to party you. Forming a full hero team build with others is also conflicting on opinions, skills, and runes availability on their heroes.

Lol yeah, seconded, since when is outfitting 7 heroes with the right equipment/skills easy? it's something a more advanced player would do, because beginners don't have enough unlocks, let alone profound knowledge of other classes. I think 7 heroes makes the game more interesting, not more dull.

In the past I would say: don't b!tch, find a PUG, but nowadays most outposts are deserted, and with Hard Mode hench often just don't cut it.

I don't think anet will give us 7 heroes though, so I don't quite understand why this huge thread about it is here . First they give us 7 heroes, then people want 7 flag buttons, and so on and on...

At least, in later campaigns, aNet gave us better henchmen.

I'm all for getting rid of the hero cap for 1 main reason- convinence.

However, I'd prefer doing HM stuff with my guild and allies. They make it more fun and easier. Pugs, in my experince, were aweful. So removing the hero cap helps me when my guild and allies are busy or offline.

Another point of convinence is that I can play at my own pace. If I screw up, I don't get flamed and I can't blame anyone else for their screw ups- seen a lot of blame games on Pugs.

Plz don't compare 7 Heroes and 8 human (24 mostly overpowered pve skills)

And the game can't be easier then it is So "i want my game eaaazierrr" is not the "why we want 7 heroes"

Worry I'm way beyond worry, www.infowars.com