Enough is enough.

Guild Wars has been around for quite a while now. It has seen player base growth, lots of added content, and seemingly endless design changes.

Arena Net came about after 3 men were profoundly tired of the traditional MMO. They wanted to develop a game free of massive grind, and reward players for their mastery of the game (skill) versus their time spent playing (grind). The original Guild Wars came of this. The game was well rounded and continued to develop. That development made balance, and the balance made the game a hit with reviewers and critics, as well as its growing player base.

Now, let us fast forward from the time where Sorrow's Furnace was added etc to Factions. The game saw massive community growth, and while it can be argued that Factions was not the greatest chapter in Guild Wars history, it did have a solid platform.

Now, titles came to be. Here was the beginning of something that was to plague the original inception of the game. Titles are a reward for the time spent playing the game, and are really no indication of skill. Granted, some of the titles may lead another player to believe you have experience, and some do indeed prove that, but most are simply proof that you had the time to grind.

The game community continued to grow, and the much anticipated release of Guild Wars: Nightfall came to pass. The community saw RAPID growth, nothing short of a population surge. Guild Wars Nightfall is probably seen as the strongest of all Chapters/Expansions to date, because of the content and uniqueness it offered. The graphical improvements to the game were impressive, despite the aging game engine. It added 2 character classes, however, that were less then popular (especially the Paragon after extensive "nerfing" of many skills) Nightfall also introduced something very powerful and destructive to the community... grinding requirements. Yes, in order for Elonian character to advance in the story line, they had to achieve a specific sunspear rank. Now, this requirement typically wasn't hard to meet provided you did a decent number of side quests in the game and killed a fair amount of creatures rather then running around. Luckily, for Nightfall, the Sunspear title didn't affect players in any other manner (until PvE only skills came to pass much later) The Lightbringer rank was a much different story. While it was not required for any part of game completion, quests and side story sections did not provide this title in the least. This title is purely grind based, and here truly began the current issue with the vision of Guild Wars.

Time passed, people played the game, some players left, but many more came into the game then left. The population of the game continued to expand, and little by little, Arena Net began to tighten its grip on players, being less reserved about banning individuals because of the growing game population.

Eye of the North was announced, and was seen to be what players had been asking for. An expansion at a reduced cost that added much needed content, new armors, and PvE gameplay updates that made PvE more of a challenge without just increasing monster level.

And then Eye of the North came out. The preview weekend was a disaster, as the Hall of Monuments was either incomplete or ill planned with rapid changes occurring after so much negative feedback. Ahhh, but what of after the preview?

Eye of the North brought with it the final bullet that shot the original vision the game was founded on, Time<Skill. Players no longer needed skill, not with powerful PvE skill combinations, Consumables, and heroes. Titles reflected this new attitude to the fullest, with each faction in the game requiring a HUGE amount of grind, especially to reach max levels. The titles give a PvE player an edge in their corresponding areas (Asura being +X energy for example) However, this was far from the bigger issue. Armors, consumables, and weapons are only craftable after acquiring a specific level of the title. The biggest one being armor, which requires rank 5 of the corresponding faction to be able to speak with the crafter. It takes quite a while (especially for specific title tracks) to grind your way to these ranks. While some people may have found a way to do this more quickly then others, the fact remains it takes a casual player quite a long time to grind so many points. After all of this, most of the armors were simply reskins of old armors rather then unique creations. Dwarven armor (being the same cost as the other factions armors) cannot even be placed into the Hall of Monuments (which was an ill concieved attempt to coerce veteran players into buying EotN in order to benefit in GW2).

Essentially, the basis by which Guild Wars was founded has changed dramatically. Rather then rewarding a player for learning how to master their character and counter each new area with a specific build/tactic, the game now rewards those that can sit down for hours at a time and play until their eyes or blood shot. The players that no longer have the time nor the inclination to do this are left behind, because they cannot devote enough time to grind the amounts required for armor sets or special bonuses.

Time is not greater then skill. Arena Net continues to ignore the complaints, stating that they are proud of Eye of the North, and that their community is satisfied with it. And now, with the new Report system and Dishonor, the vision becomes even more skewed. The threat of being banned is daunting, with many of the good natured players having to think twice about what they type for fear of it being offensive to someone. With such a convenient method of reporting people, the childish players will simply abuse the system in order to wreak havoc on unsuspecting players they are either jealous of or just plain dislike. The simple solution would be to hire in game moderators that have an excellent sense of honor, creditability, and desire to see the community improve. Arena Net has placed this system into the game with hopes that somehow, their problems will just disappear. They won't. Many of the problems were brought on by themselves, others by the fanbase they have unintentionally lured into the game.

The fact is, Arena Net has become to focused on their next project and another dollar made, rather then their current game and their veteran players who truly enjoy the game. They have betrayed their veteran players, changing the entire vision of the game into a stagnant MMO, one filled with grind and people complaining. While people cannot be controlled, the basis by which the game is written on can be. Instead of focusing on drawing in another customer who enjoys the grind (WoW retirees for example), Arena Net needs to focus on appeasing their veteran players, and upholding their original promises. They stand by their product, but they change the thing they stand by so radically, it no longer resembles what they started with. It is like standing up your your best friend who is a woman only to turn the next second to see a man standing there beside you. Arena Net may not make as much money focusing on a niche of the gaming community, but at least it would make the game unique and radically different. Appealing to the masses isn't always the best route. Quite the opposite really, finding a niche can truly be rewarding. Many people dislike the final fantasy series, yet it is one of the most successful franchises because Square Enix stands by what they originally developed; a turn based well rounded balanced RPG with a dynamic story line and a brilliant design. Certainly, a few things they improved on were disliked, and they made further changes to those to appeal to their audience. However, the core of the Final Fantasy series remains. Rather then revising the basis on which a game is founded on, Arena Net needs to change simple dynamics. Several improvements they made were very well done, but ill conceived based on the fanbase. It is too late to change Guild Wars, which is where Guild Wars 2 may "save the day."

Another issue that plagues the game isn't Arena Net's doing. As much as we would love to pin the blame on them for everything, we must at some point, find only ourselves to blame. We are cruel to each other, crude and vile in every sense of the words. The simple fact that the community has such an inner hatred is disappointing, and totally uncalled for. Guild Wars players are, in general, the least helpful and most reserved online gaming community. Part of this is the fault of Arena Net for introducing single player elements into an MMO, but part of it falls on our shoulders, being selfish and unsocial. The fact is, in comparison to WoW or EQ, our community is extremely anti social, and unwelcoming. I have been playing the Tabula Rasa beta, and the community even in Beta differs drastically. Everyone is very talkative, social, and outgoing. The bad part is, the Guild Wars community will never be that way, because the game draws in players who are anti social. Guild Wars has become somewhat of a single player MMO (or in most cases, a 2 player adventure game). Heroes are both a blessing and plague, and this is where the blame falls on Arena Net, but also you must feel sorry for their situation. Rather then ignoring peoples' complaints about PUG groups, Arena Net introduced heroes. This started a new niche for the game that was in almost all ways, not beneficial or needed. I see threads calling for 7-Hero teams to be permitted. This change would only create an even larger rift between the player base, and probably ruin what little social environment is left. I immediately noticed how much more antisocial the community has become from the response in the Oktoberfest thread versus that of the Ascalon Royal Family Masquerade Ball. The community is continuing to drift farther and farther apart, and it is opening the question... "How much is Guild Wars an MMO as it is an online RPG?" Not only does Arena Net need to change, but we as a community need to stop being so self serving and be more humble about those we play with. Accepting others and their style of play makes you the better person. Our mentality, however, has developed because of Time being more important then skill. We want to get things done more quickly, which is more easily accomplished with all Hero/Hench parties then in a PUG.

Unfortunately, making another dollar another day is all big companies seem to be about. There are few game studios left that listen to their fanbase, and don't change their game just because it doesn't satisfy the majority... but there are some, and it is those few that are respected for their dignity, not their public image. If dignity wisdom have a price, Arena Net is in financial trouble. Such a pity to see the game I once so enjoyed devolve into another run of the mill MMO. I sincerely hope that Arena Net comes to realize that being niche isn't bad, just like they started off as. I hope Guild Wars 2 sees the realization of this fact, and I wish them the best in their endeavors.

Best Wishes,

Connor

Well: I will personally say that I am sick of the grinding to rank 5 to get armor deal, I mean really, whats the logical point?: If one, I bet it can be revised.

But yeah, once something/someone gets up on it's feet, to a higher position, whatever helped it gain that position is generally swept under the rug, this is nearly natural human behavior.

Now on the other hand people with good values wouldn't do that, but that is all just a generalization. Not really saying anything about A-Net as I never pay much attention to stuff like this. Best not to put a foot in my mouth.

On a side note, when factions came out, I literally despised it so much that I never played it until near Nightfall release: Now I love factions, and furthermore it is my favorite campaign now, guess I just love its atmosphere. And I generally despise Gw:En, and for different reasons Nightfall as always (Only personal reasons.. hate the atmosphere).

But eh, whatever really. I stopped caring long ago about anything, I just play and do things for myself these days, not caring much about who passes by or what passes by, Perhaps I'm in my own little world now.

I'll say this, I've never been a fan of farming.

I have 10 PvE characters, all of which are level 20. You can imagine how much work it is to make enough money to pay for them all.

I farm, yes, I'll admit that. However, I don't enjoy it. I can never get myself to do more that 3 farming runs in a row.

So you can imagine how I feel about having to get the same rank, by doing the same thing on 10 different characters.

I know many of these things you don't "have" to get them up high. But then again, I don't "have" to play this game either. It's my choice, and I would have preferred that the game I choose nearly 2 years ago had remained on track.

When I first realized that Lightbringer gave an advantage to those who got it up high (by farming), I remember thinking, "Great, now I'll be required to farm." That was long before PvE skills came about.

Very good post. I feel the same way you do, and unfortunately for me Guild Wars isn't the same it was before. I remember I used to like being in PUGs and failing, and then discussing in the outpost what we will do better, and having another crack at it, then came the introduction of heroes, PvE skills etc. People stopped partying, no longer needing that extra human player. Yet, I still forced myself (yes I didn't even wanna buy GW:EN, and haven't played it yet, even though I got it 2 weeks ago ) to buy GWEN in a hope that things would indeed be differen't, bringing that extra spark of life into the game, yet I don't wanna play it, with all the negative feedback i've heard lately, and I am seriously considering quitting GW makes me sad, seeming I remember staying up till 3 am playing this game like a religion back in Prophecies (probaly wasnt healthy). I'm gonna give GW:EN a crack tomorrow when I get some time, and will make my decision. Guild Wars is pretty much, in one word, stale at the moment.

~Zeth

I now only play one of my characters through the new campaign since I just cannot face doing such repetitive grind on more than one.

Exactly, you like so many others have cocooned themselves into their own little Guild Wars world, and the social environment has all but disappeared. This really isn't our fault though, it is Arena Net's for creating a grind based MMO forcing players to be machine-like and exacting in their farming, so that the end result is more quickly acquired. Meanwhile, a resentment for inefficiency forms, and we become hostile to those players that are new to the game, forcing them into their own cocoon. A vicious cycle, but it almost seems impossible to avoid given the current image/design of the game.

This was the beginning of the end for Time<Skill concept. The Lightbringer rank symbolizes the start of Time>Skill, because it gave a big advantage to players (particularly to damage dealers) later in the game when facing demons (which happens to be where most of the high end rewards were found [See Domain of Anguish])

The title bonuses are useless in GW:EN as they only apply to the area that you're grinding to achieve them. In the time it takes you to grind the title to rank 5 you'll probably have made all of the gold necessary to craft an entire armour set so it's win win it my eyes. Personally I was rank 5 in all of the titles (rank 7 in dwarf since everything gives dwarf points) after completing the main story, the majority of the side quests, and all of the dungeons. Okay I had to spend about two hours clearing some charr to get vanguard to rank 5.

Save Yourselves!, There's Nothing To Fear!, and Seed of Life are the only really good PvE only skills. Great Dwarf Weapon and You Move Like A Dwarf! are the only other skills with useful applications.

Consumables... yeah, what were they thinking. If you haven't tried using them yet, don't, otherwise you'll wonder how you ever had troubles ever in PvE.

Also, paragons are still broken.

IMO, I think these EotN titles should be account based, but I know that doesn't make much sense story wise :/

Actually, that was when PvE skills came about, not before. Lightbringers Gaze, Lightbringers Signet.

Maybe you can call me a "noob" for saying this and that's fine, but it took me a hell of a lot longer than 2 hours to get to r5 Vanguard. The storyline leaves you at roughly r2-3. The runs took me anywhere from 30-40 minutes each (I wasn't rushing and I was thorough to makes sure I took advantage of all the kill bonuses). I did many, many of those runs.

r5 isn't exaclty a sweep under the rug.

But really, this thread wasn't created to nit pick each feature. It was created to really show what has happened to Arena Net in hopes of enlightening those that couldn't see this devolution occurring. The simple fact that a lot of people complain about these features is a sign that something is very wrong.

The problem is, it is too late to change it. Guild Wars is finished (not speaking as in its over, everyone is going to /ragequit, but rather the franchise of GW1 is done) and GW2 may open a new light to the series. We can only hope, but it seems putting hope into a company like what Arena Net has evolved into at this point is a fruitless waste of time, only to end in disappointment. Guild Wars 2 will, unless ANET changes dramatically back to their roots, a collection of the most popular MMO elements, and will only astray farther from the original vision of Time<Skill.

Good post with some interesting insight.

I think that one of the problems with PvE in the game (that has been there from the beginning) is that the missions, that are required for progression in the storyline, simply take too much time.

In my opinion, part of the players' attitude to which you refer is due to this. After all, who wants to spend the best part of 2 hours fighting through some of the longer missions in the game, just to die on the final boss because one of your monks does something retarded due to inexperience? This is one of the reasons that PuGs are so unpopular nowadays.

I really don't think it would be an issue if there were say four times as many 30min missions - people would be more laid back. Then, if you fail, you haven't lost out so much.

It is becoming tedious. Latest char I created was factions, because I couldn't bear the NF sunspear point grind again, and I'm getting back into it and it's fun. Been playing through with some friends, it's enjoyable.

One of the bigger problems is that as heroes have come in, people play with heroes, which don't critique their builds, so they can keep playing with a horrible build and not realise it, and then one day they try to pug, and discover their build is horrific. I accept I could be just as guilty as anyone, but it's something to face up to.

Admittedly I played my warrior and assassin through factions mostly with heroes, but that was a combination of not wanting to stand around setting up a team for 3/4 of an hour before some person leaves and have to start again when I have a limited time on the computer.

One problem the PuG has, is that whilst it can be fun to play through with other players, and can give a real sense of satisfaction and achievement, is that it can take a long time to set up for the mission that is being done, and then you can get people who act stupidly, disappear to do something without telling anyone, draw random things on the map (will admit that I've done that) and numerous other things.

It can be fun playing through and helping people, but so many people are defensive these days. If you try and give them a reasonable critique of their build, they'll insult you and tell you to F off etc etc, even if their running 2 or 3 maintained enchants on a war, with a high energy bar or whatever.

I remember when I made a mesmer over a year ago now, someone ran up and gave me an Illyana's Staff, no idea who they were, I was amazed. How likely is that to happen now?

Hm, this thread is a large collection of everything said thousand times ealier in these forums. But I do like to see that the game rewards both dedication/time as skill/builds/strategy. I actually like the R5 requirement of the armors as variation of the money/material only armors as we know them. R5 is reached quite easily with only very little grinding. (Only a few hours for me) You'll just have to complete the quests and always get the blessing while you are in the area's for other reasons (Like questing)

My only problem is the amount of grinding required to max the new titles. I'm working on KoaBD title track and planned to get some GW:EN titles to contribute to this. But considering the amount of grinding needed for these titles to be maxed seems to be huge. Together with the lack of a real protector and cartographer title it's becoming hard to get any progress here.

I do like the new consumables. Finally some bonus items that work on your entire party, so for the first time a nice bonus usable for hero/hench parties. I used some last weekend to complete the Sorrows Furnace. SF is a hard place to get a good PUG nowadays, but because I'm a late starter with Guild Wars I still had to complete it. And it's finally a good use for skill points and stacks of materials.

Some parts of the Eye of the North felt a bit rushed tho. Especially the Hall of Monuments was far from completed and some dungeons/quest had it's issues. It really could have used some more testing and development before release. But well, thinggs already have been improved here, and I'm quite sure more fixes and improvements will be made to the Hall of Monuments later. Personally I'm still hoping for an account-based HoM with account-based minipets and more weapons to be addable to the weapons monument. (Like tormented stuff and high-end greens) Well, we'll have to wait and see.

In the bottom line I have to say that I greatly enjoyed the Eye of the North expansion. The above issues do not mean that I'm disappointed by the entire game. Overall GW:EN rocks!

Yes, PUGs do have lots of issues, but the way to fix it would make it so that even if a players skill level was a bit below the rest of the groups, it would simply teach that player more skill rather then making the group suffer.

I try to hand out the things that I can. I gave a friend a Torment shield the other day, she had been trying for 5 months to get one, and I felt sorry for her. Made her cry. That type of kindness is still seen, but it is general kindness that seems to be lacking. You don't have to give out free stuff to be seen as a nice person, or do you?

The Rainbow Phoenix is a great example of rewarding those with the TIME spent to grind. My mother is very sick right now, and I don't have time to play anymore. I will never see r2 of that title track in order to get a Phoenix. And while I am not complaining because I don't care, it does make it feel like punishment not being able to get that pet by any other means but grinding.

In reality though, and I must stress this, it isn't the grind that has made me angry. It is the fact that Arena Net has betrayed veteran players, going back on the founding principle of the game, Skill is worth more then Time. Time spent rewards players with the riches, the special items, and the glory. Skill rewards nothing anymore. This design flaw can only fall on one... Arena Net.

Very good post. I totally agree.

Let's look at Proph. Most people puged, you didn't get called a noob for running mending on a war, people just rolled with it or kindly asked you to changed it. There was no grind, none.

Now let's look at NF and GWEN. Basically no pugs around, most players are very mean to "noobs/newbies". TONS of grind.

How did we get to this........ah, the good old days.

Anet, I suggest that if you want people to buy GW2 you better stick to your promises and gain the communitys trust again. You've royally screwed up GW. Anet, who took pride in being different and original is now just another sheep following in the footsteps of mainstream MMOs.

Anet, if you want people to grind, give them rewards that are WORTH the time! Not some bullsh!t reskinned armors.

They shouldn't want people to grind in the first place. But again, Guild Wars is finished, the only hope that can be held is for Guild Wars 2. If Arena Net can make a unique game again, and not be swayed by those that want it to become a traditional MMO again, they will succeed and have a thriving happy fanbase.

The armor isn't the issue, the grind isn't the issue, the titles are not the issue. It is the betrayal of their original vision, their promise of a unique MMO where Time<Skill. That vision is all but gone now, and it is my hope the vision finds a new emergence in Guild Wars 2.

I could careless about the armors to be honest. I got Dwarven armor on my male monk Lord Sojar just before I have basically quit the game. I have quit Guild Wars due mainly to real life issues, but also impart because I feel completely betrayed, and lied to by ArenaNet.

Cry me a river...
You know how long it took me to grind/farm my FoW armor?
I just broke SIX THOUSAND hours and just recently purchased my second set of FoW armor. And no.. i dont buy online gold.. I farmed/traded every coin.
I think you can kill a few baddies for a week to get yours.

And as for the OP on Crappy reskinned armor...

Thank You Anet for not completly destroying a reason to get FoW armor.
I was a little dissapointed with some of the Nightfall armor, thinking it was really close to coming into competition with FoW.

This game suits multiple peoples playstyles...I have never played anygame as Complex and versitile a Guildwars, and i still consider it to be my favorite game.

I definitely see what you're saying, Rahja, and I totally agree. I've never really noticed it before these past couple of weeks, either. One of the main reasons I was so addicted to Guild Wars was because it was a great game for my wife and I to play together. Well, the past couple of weeks, she couldn't play because of an injury to her right arm, and I played a bit on my own. I noticed how incredibly bored I got playing on my own. It then hit me - people play like this a lot.

Oh yeah, I was efficient. Got my heroes up to perfection, capped a ton of elites, even did a couple of dungeons all by my lonesome (also noticed how much easier certain things are, like the Golemancer quest, with just H/H). What I realized was that Guild Wars PvE is just a giant farming ground. I stopped playing after a week of that. Of course, if I continued playing, I'd have to start Pugging and PvPing or something. Yeah, cause I hate pretty much all grinding.

Still, it is fun playing GW with my wife, and the occasional get-together with friends, but alone? Hell no. The grind really shows itself when you play alone. At least it does to me. I start to feel like there is this "To Do" list: go cap these skills, try this build, farm this green, do these dungeons, grind these titles, uncover these areas of the map, etc. I just find it really hard to just "do stuff" for the fun of it unless there is someone else to enjoy it with me and discuss things.

Heh, and all this coming from the anti-social bastard that I am.

Right, and you are one of the few that has a dedicated partner to play with. I don't have anyone like that, so, many times I found myself very alone and I really started to hate the game I once so loved. Add in depression from my mother being so sick, and some other family issues, and I really hit rock bottom the other day. I essentially quit the game, realizing that I was wasting what little time I may have left with my Mom on a game that has betrayed what it promised me. I found myself wondering why I was playing a game that was something completely different from what I was attracted to in the first place when I started playing 27+ months ago.

Unlimited level cap? Different servers? World PvP? Sounds like a WoW clone wannabe to me.

Indeed, some aspects do sound similar. However, the unlimited level cap may not matter, it will just give players who like to grind levels something to do. The problem will come if they make it so you have to be X level to do Y quest. Now, THAT will be an issue. Then again, it is a whole new game, so they do not have to uphold their promise of Time<Skill. That promise/motto only applies to GW1, and it has been broken.

I replied to a comment on GWO a second ago in my thread there. I thought it would provide clarification into my views.

I wonder what it means if you find others saying, "It's like WoW, but...,". Seems like trouble.

---

You are doing it wrong, i got my (first and the only) fow set (minus feet) at 500hour mark, back in prophecies.

---

I understand, and I realized that back when they released PvE skills.

It is kinda haertbroken feeling when you finally stop being blind and realize that your loved one was really cheating on you.

I agree with a lot thats been said, specifically the linking of PvE skills to title grind. I feel this was a bad decision A better one would have been to create another attribute line called something like 'special abillties' where you had to use attribute points in the same way as traditional builds. Scrap consumables and make PvE skills linked to the balanced attribute system. But for commercial reasons I don't think that will happen.

I have no real problem with grind for titles, so long as thats all the grind is for. Linking it to other rewards moves it from the optional line, to the mandatory.

It is obvious that Anet has very much shifted priorities from GW1 to GW2, and in the scheme of things that is a necessary move(after all Anet does not have limitless resources) so one suspects the introduction and expansion of grind for stuff is there simply to give people something to do.

I think the original plan was as stated. To release a new chapter/expansion every 6 months or so, while at the same time work on GW2. The game reached a point where that just would not work(certainly as far as PvP was concerned) so Plan B had to be thought up. What we got I think in plan B, was the remains of Ch4 plus enough grind to slowly stretch things out until the GW2 beta. Once the Gw2 beta is upon us the hype engine will be in full flow so those playing Gw1 will revisit tyria and/or wait patiently for Gw2 release.

One thing is for sure, I very much think GW1 will be abandoned by a lot of people by the time Gw2 is nears release.

Five words:
Make all titles account-based.

Sure, some peoples work is going to go down the shitter, but the way the title/grind system is now, the game encourages you to play only one PvE character, I expect most players have only worked on a single toon, so the loss of work is going to be minimal

I absolutely hate that I have been reduced to playing only my Warrior character simply because so many titles that affect PvE are character based only, instead of account based, and I refuse to go out and re-grind areas 5 more times.

Yes, I believe that is true as well Shan. What I am afraid is really going to happen though, is all of the original players of Guild Wars are just going to abandon the game completely. This will only hurt Arena Net, but it is their own greed that has brought this upon them.

Oh, the hype machine for Eye of the North was basically just as terrible as Halo3. Halo3= "Finish the fight!" GW:EN = "Return to Tyria!" They are basically the SAME hype machine, just with a different game. Granted, Halo3 was a bit more out of control hype wise, but Microsoft also has an infinite amount of money (not infinite truly, but close enough) Give Arena Net that much money, I am sure they would have done the same thing. The pity is, $$$$>Players. Again, this is true of all large companies, with the exception of ONE. Newegg.com seems to have preserved their customer orientation despite their massive growth. I have never seen such an outstanding company like Newegg. Pity they cannot pass a few words of wisdom to Arena Net.

Actually, making the titles account based won't solve much either. It still would have grinding mandatory (that is if you want 1/8 of the GW:EN content). And actually, it is quite the opposite. Most players that are veteran players (pre Factions or even pre Nightfall) worked on multiple characters because Arena Net didn't have these grindfest titles in place, so you could have fun with different play styles, whereas now, you basically have to play 1 character class in order to ever achieve all the titles required for specific things (like Hall of Monuments, Rainbow Phoenix, etc)

/ agree.

I definitely think that the GWEN faction titles should be account based. Not all of them though, such as survivor, skill hunter etc etc.

But now as I think of it, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Excellent post. I still like GW, despite there being so many things I never wanted to see in this game. What I have been doing lately is retreating to the small niches I still enjoy. While giving up on pretty much everything else.

More Account based would certainly help.

I think it's a bit strong calling it greed. Anet had to do something as they have limited resources, so it was either put everything they had into something that was breaking at the seams(trying to balance the game) or introduce stuff that would keep things in a slowly declining holding patten until GW2. Knowing that when GW2 was out, much of GW1's veteran population would crash anyway.

It's not a choice I would have wanted to make.

You know what's sad? The CMs have previously stated that they believe only the dissatisfied will post in forums, not those who are happily playing. As such, all such threads are to be weighed very very very cautiously.

However, I see no other way of letting them know how many players are disappointed with the direction Guild Wars is heading towards. We can't let our money do the talking since there's no subscription fee. We continue to purchase the expansion based on the belief that things will be better. We continue to play because we're attached to the game still. There is practically no other way for us to demonstrate our discontent, other than post in forums.

I wonder if threads like this will ever go anywhere, instead of simply registering an insignificant blip on some ANet employee's radar.

Yeah I realize what you’re saying Rahja. I have been off and on Guild Wars recently, but I can see what you mean by anti-social behavior taking root in GW. Nevertheless I have really been put off by the grind that was introduced in EotN. I think your missing the point about the whole jade and amber grind, which latter turned into straight grind. At least then you got something physical for your work, which you could sell.

The problem is A-net half listens to the community or a direct miscommunication from the CR people. Every time a brand new shiny toy gets shown into GW, it always comes with an evil accessory that is tagged along with it. Sorry for the metaphor, but it’s the best way to explain it.

Take for instance what happened after Nightfall came out; one of the developers (interview^1) talked about how everyone actually loved the new title grind and PvE only skills. However we as a community talked about it time and time again, how we despised the grind but did enjoy the PvE only skills. The community begged and pleaded on these forums not to pull the same stunt again in EotN, for that was the majorities fear.

I also agree with your point that it is part the community’s fault how GW has turned out to be. However I like to add the “press” to that statement (if you don’t mind). I know I have been guilty of some angry out bursts; at and against A-net’s behalf. However if you remember some of the stuff was already taking root way before when Prophecies first came out. How many people ask for “WoW or EQ” stuff to be added to the game? Every time I hear the same ploy about mounts should be a must in the game because their “cool,” gets me pretty T-off. Without giving the reasoning they just exhume the “cool factor,” (no logic or anything).

I can probably tell all the people who are looking towards GW 2 to become your savor, "that it’s not going to happen." If anything I can see the grind becoming worse and even some of the recent bad aspects that have dragged on in the first GW, become spread out to the next rendition.

One last comment on this, before I turn in for the day. You have to read Jeff Strain’s article on MMO’s (Speech^2) if you want to get a serious taste of irony on this side of GW. Strain’s attitude throughout the speech comments on the fact, you don’t need to copy and paste from others but the key lies in innovation.

^1Gamespot interview on EotN.

^2 Jeff Strain’s GC Speech ‘07

By who? People leaving WoW and joining Guild Wars? No one liked the grind involved, it was against the Guild Wars motto. Well received as in people accepted it and went on with the game? Sure. Well received as in like...Oh, I think not dear my dear buddy Ben.

A MUST READ

This is a powerful piece of writing from someone who has obviously been around since the dawn of Guild Wars.

I can say - without a shred of doubt in my mind - that if the game was still skill>time, I would not have finished it. It was well balanced and the gameplay was very fine-tuned back when Prophecies was released.

Faction - like the OP stated - was controversial when it came to its success. I, personally, did not like Factions. But it was a solid game.

Nightfall was - and still is - my favorite. However, the absence of nerfs, buffs, and overall unbalancing of skills (both PvP and PvE) would have made the chapter even more enjoyable.

Guild Wars has changed. Both in gameplay and in community.

As ANet sets their eyes on Guild Wars 2 and the future, it is my hope that at least one of them has read the OP's post and will remember:

Skill > Time

Yes, a large part of the community has become very selfish and self-absorbed. There is an attitude in the longer-term players towards the newer ones of "I got mine, let them get theirs" - that "no one showed us how to do it, we had to figure it out for ourselves, let them do the same, especially as how I'm soooo 1337 and far too busy to waste my time showing them'.

It's become very much like high school, where the seniors shun the freshmen because, well, as seniors, they're soooo cool and freshmen, well, they're dorks. Conveniently forgetting that they, themselves, were once the dorks, apparently preferring to believe they sprang fully-formed from the forehead of Zeus.

As you pointed out, while the game has certainly changed (sometimes for the better, sometimes not) over time and is no longer quite the same game we became so fond of, it's equally true that much of this change can be, if not totally ignored, then grudgingly tolerated and we continue to have fun with it.

Equally true is that we get back from the community what we put into - if we put nothing in, we get nothing in return.

Even the more experienced of us can use a hand from time to time - by extending a hand to the newer players, we'll usually find a hand extended to us on those occassions we could use one ourselves.

I agree it's too late to change GW1. I just wonder, like trielementz, if posting even accomplishes anything anymore. How seriously do they take the couple thousand people who post, compared to the millions (?) who just grind away? If everyone who posts on the forums were to stop playing, it'd be like scooping a bucket of water from the beach to make the ocean go down. All it seems to do is create anymosity between players quite often.

As for the grinding, I guess I got angry at it much earlier than everyone else. I didn't like the fact that we had to stop saving the world from an undead menace bent on conquering it, to go impress a bunch of tree goths and pirates without water by doing the same arena fights over and over, or a bunch of quests like finding some dude's art supplies, or locating a rare species of bird. The end is coming... do I help fight it, or locate Bob's paintbrush? There was nothing like that in Prophecies.

There, fixed that for you, because:

With HoM the way it is now, and the PvE skills effectiveness tied to their faction title track level - this is exactly what has happened. I have 13 char slots, but since NF's LB and SS titles and now specifically GW:EN... only one char has seen play.

I used to love doing things on different chars, just for the change of pace each class provides and because its great to have all the classes available for guild outings, wherever we might go. Now, after having taken my Necro thru GW:EN, I decided last night to take my Monk up North to join her sister.... and she got as far as Siffhalla, and just lost steam... to do all of the same things over and over again just to get that Norn armour she likes, and use some of the skills she wants to try out.... pffft, she went home to the Guild hall and told her Warrior, Paragon, Mesmer, Ele, and Rit sisters to stay on vacation. Necro will max her HoM requirements and thats it, if I actually have the heart to go that far.

The PUG is dead and that is just a simple truth. The pug died when the designer's got lazy and increased the difficulty levels by simply ramping up a mobs health bar and damage output, by simply ramping up the sheer numbers of foes in a mob, by simply adding environmental effects that punished certain classes, by simply creating endgame/elite areas that were only completable in a reasonable time by a cookie cutter class and team build. That is the death of the pug - it was the end of any acceptance of any form of skill bar experimentation, it ended the formation of pugs to play an area just for the sheer fun of it because of the time it takes for non-cookie-cutter teams to get thru, it created the class rejection we see in most areas, it simply just destroyed the social community fun of PUGGING!! And yes, There is only one set of shoulders that that can be laid on.

Rajah, It makes me sad when I see you write the way you do - to me, you have always been what I consider a GW society mainstay. Your involvement in the community (in it's broad sense) of GW has been fantastic. Your bright dedication to making GW a better MMO experience for everyone has encouraged me in my own RP activities in-game. But I see, understand and accept your frustration and anger with a wonderful environment that has degraded beyond anyone's ability to repair it, because of the game Designer's own actions/attitude shifts.

Rajah, my thoughts are with you in what must be a very tough time in your personal life.

Fight Well
Friday

But that type of equivalent exchange has almost completely dissapeared from Guild Wars, it seems.

With recent dupe-witch hunts, /report slappers, and common scammers, players feel they have to be on their toes - even when they're in an outpost.

A sad example was when I was giving out MSKs (Monk Starter Kits) to Monks in Shing Jea Monestary that were below level 10. While giving them out, I occasionally recieved a "thank you"... But that's not what I wanted, nor is that the point.

The point is, after giving various Monks starter kits, many of them informed me that I was going to be reported for duping and scamming.

It was at that point that I started asking myself, "Why am I doing this, then?"

I don't want to believe this is the usual case when it comes to generosity in Guild Wars, but I have started to think otherwise...

With the current game-system, I trust my heroes' hand more than a players hand... And that should never ever happen.

Rahja, Rahja, Rahja, you mate are an absolute legend for putting such a post together, you just showed Anet how they dropped the ball and how damn big it is.

Some titles are absolutely useless, if people gave it a bit of thought they might see that they dont do anything else but encourage grinding (as Rahja stated in his post) and yea ill go as far as saying they did destroy the game play. Ive started playing GW a month after the release of Prophecies, the game was such a joy to play, you would start 1 char - finish the game - unlock whole bunch of skills - play some pvp - start another one, it wasnt a grind, it was a adventure.

Another thing that strikes me is what the community has become, i can recall the days where every town you visit, there would be someone offering help, now days with the big help of titles, majority is way to competitive about them or just too busy brainlessly grinding to help anyone.

And if you come to this post saying that Rahja is wrong, you my friend, either started playing the game after Factions, nightfall, GW:EN or have absolutely no life whatsoever, and yes i do know Legendary Wallhugers, Holy Zoom around in a worm for hours on end, Blessed by ebaying gold, buying tickets and idling for days on a round platform, the list goes on, and yea the grinding has/is destroying their life, how people fail to see that is beyond me ...

There are few titles that are worthy of staying in the game that dont require grinding, but i guess ill leave them for another post that i might just go over every title and give a logical (theres is a big word for ya) explanation why it should or should not be in the game, and maybe give few better alternatives to achive few things without grinding.

Cheers

Interesting post Rahja, especially the self(and community)reflection part. I wonder where the 'inner hatred' you talk about comes from.