Enough is enough.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish. If this is the way you truly feel then don't buy the games anymore. That's how you judge whether or not to buy the product, experience with a previous product. You, as the consumer, have the power to say "Wow, I really got hosed on that one! I'm not buying another game from those guys." and move on to a new hobby. I hear Jim Butcher just put out a new Harry Dresden novel, so there's a suggestion (love the pic btw ;-))

they have already stated that anything unlocked in GW2 from GW1 will be nice, unique, and not available in any other way including obviously selling that unique GW1 unlocked GW2 minipet zoo for a GW2 fortune.

they stated that it would not give a player any advantage over a brand new GW2 player as that would obviously be bad for sales of GW2

*buy GW2 where the GW1 players have a big head start..........right*

It isn't about the armors being bad/good, it isn't about the current grind levels, it isn't about how terrible/awesome that hall of monuments is, it isn't about how wonderful/dismal titles are, it isn't about ANY of that.

What this is about is what Arena Net originally said with the inception of Guild Wars to what it is today. There are other inventive ways to add content without making a huge amount of grind. Quest chains are one of the best ways.

The Mini Black Moa bird was thought up by someone with a great head on their shoulders at the Arena Net offices. The quest was unique, required skill to solve the riddles (unless you just got the info off the wiki), and was interactive and unique. GW:EN should have done this. Yes, you had to "grind" to get each ingredient, but that grind is the enjoyable type, because instead of killing monsters for just another +1 to some title track, you would be killing that monster for its unique drop to add to your hunt.

If more of the quests and missions were geared like this, GW:EN would have been wildly successful and well received. Pity whoever created the Black Moa quest didn't create other like it, or with the same creative inspiration. The Mini Black Moa quest really was a great thing, because it showed me that Arena Net still had some creative spirit left in them, it showed me they were not completely ignorant on where to take their franchise. That style of quest is interactive, fun, and challenges the mind rather then just making you play for hours on end mindlessly killing the same monsters again and again. Good show Arena Net, now, continue this TREND of quest types, your game will be all the better for it.

So what you are saying is that grind for titles like LB is unacceptable because you don't find it to be fun? There is a part of the player base that thinks grind for titles like LB, SS, Asuran, Vanguard, Norn, and Dwarven are fun.

I for one liked the grind for SS and LB. Everyone should be able to play the game how they want to and if people find grind fun then they should be able to do it.

This game is essentially grind free. Like I said before you don't need to grind the titles for armor or to be the best. All you need to finish the game is the basic stuff which is grind free.

So all in all the Anet never broke any promises, no please quite QQ because you don't want to grind to get the nicer (but not needed) things in the game.

First off, knock it off with the QQ crap, its bull and you can just stop using that term regarding this thread. I am not "QQing" in the least, I am pointing out that Arena Net has lied to the community on numerous occasions for their own personal financial gains. I am not complaining about having to grind, nor am I complaining about titles or armor etc. They are simply the proof backing my statement. I don't appreciate the attitude your putting off towards me just because you might not be a very old player to the series. I agree people should be able to play the game the way they want, but the grind should not be needed to realize 100% of the content. THe grind should give some type of reward that doesn't unlock extra content that you PAID for, as it was advertised.

Again, I must point out that you don't have to do ANYTHING in the game. But GW:EN isn't exactly boiling over with content. What you are suggesting is to ignore the possibility of acquiring 40 (yes 40) "New" armor sets, stand alone items, consumables that give an edge to your parties, and unique weapon skins. That is a large chunk of content. What you are implying is that people pay 40 USD so they can enjoy 75% of the content and not 100%. The grind is indeed forced if you want to enjoy what Arena Net themselves even advertised about the game. 150 new skills, 50 of which are PvE only? To make those 50 new skills even remotely useful, you need to grind to r5-7. So again, without grinding, you essentially cannot use 1/3 of the new skills (66% for those not adept at math). So 100% of the armors are unachievable, 80% of the weapons (collector bound weapons), 100% of the special PvE only items, and 33% of the skills are unusable? Hmm, that seems like a big fat waste of 40 USD to me. Nightfall only had 2 skills that you would miss out on if you didn't grind, and those skills really didn't give you an edge (especially Lightbringer's Signet, which was a TERRIBLE skill)

With the introduction of the PvE only skills prior to GW:EN's release, those titles became far more important to grind. But those PvE skills were a "FREE" upgrade, so not having them didn't signify wasted money. Arena Net didn't inform people that the PvE only skills required large amounts of grind (against their game motto) to make useful, now did they? Remember, Arena Net didn't say "40 New armor sets, but only if you get r5 in each corresponding title track!" They simply said "40 New armor sets" The grind for armor is in getting the materials required for them, not the crafter having respect to talk to you. If you want to take that route, it should be quest based, such as get me such and such item, and I will allow you to craft armor, but I need my missing tool or I cannot craft. SO you go get the armor crafter needle and thread that the Charr stole, and he can then offer to craft armor for you.

Ah "grind," up there with "nerf" on the list of meaningless catch-words people like to sling around when they've gotten bored with the game.

Since all you have to do to "grind" up a title is play the game, it seems rather obvious that if you're unwilling to play the game to get an item you're probably just not that into playing anymore. Maybe you'll come back later when your mood changes, maybe you won't, but this business of declaring anything you don't want to do "grind" and claiming the game design has fundamentally changed has got to stop.

Non-title examples of grind:

You have to grind for awhile to get to level 20. Let's remove that and start all characters at max level to remove "grind."
You have to grind for awhile to acquire skills. Let's remove that and start all characters with all skills to remove "grind."
You have to grind to earn money, let's remove that and make all items free to remove "grind."

"Grind" doesn't mean anything, it's just playing a part of the game you don't enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it.

OK, I quit like 3 weeks ago and tried to stay out of these arguments, because I do know how irritating it is when detractors hang around like a bad smell, but I have to respond to this, because it's the primary argument that I'm really sick of.

I HATE titles. Always have. From the start they struck me as rewarding the most anal styles of play - but that was fine, because (as many of you have been at great pains to point out) they were entirely optional. So I could just focus on the things I did enjoy.

Now armour and some aspects of skill acquisition have been bound to titles. The options I did enjoy have been tied to the option I loathed. For players like me - *that's* the problem. So what if you can drag your ass through the game without them? Games like this are pointless if you don't have the freedom to pursue the aspects you do enjoy. If I just wanted to finish, I'd be done and dusted in 2 days (apparently ).

I specifically gravitate towards games that give me freedom - I don't feel Guild Wars does that anymore.

Play the game eh? What would you call the time spent killing monsters in order to acquire a massive number of points to increase the effectiveness of your skills? Would you call it baking? Ok, instead of grinding, let's call it baking. Maybe now you will stop this nonsense.

The game design has fundamentally changed. How much grind is it to get the Cartographer title? None really. You go through a zone ONCE and explore it totally. You don't have to explore that zone again do you? I think not. How many times must you complete the mission+bonus (or masters) to get Guardian/Protector titles? Not multiple times, ONCE per mission. Those titles are not the issue.

Play the game and get to r5+ without going out of your way to kill monsters and repeating zones with hunt bonuses on you. Better yet, eat your own words.



I rest my case.

Would you say there is a big distinction between:

1) grinding for armor, which has the same numerical values for armor that can be achieved without grind therefore resulting in simply a prettier or more flashy skin that confers no in-game advantage.
2) grinding for in-game skills that are exempt from the 200 point balance mechanic and therefore extend an in-game advantage, from a dual perspective in that grind increases the power of the title-based skills as well as them being PvE only and not balanced for effect with all the other skills.

Based on what we know, I think we can safely rule out the kind of grind we see here from the vision of the game as Prophecies was made - the very nature of PvP being the endgame makes such grind for skills exclusive to PvE impractical at the time.

I think we agree on the point that every player should play as they want to. Where we disagree is in the level of entitlement that should be given to grinders - in my estimation, rewarding grind with vanity items allows all players to play as they want and be on an even footing, as opposed to rewarding grind with skills that break the 200 point attribute balance mechanic and an uneven level of power.

That would confer an in-game advantage, and we have seen what that brings to the game - in-game requirements for players to join groups.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I call it "playing the game." I find that anytime someone uses the word "grind" I can substitute that phrase and perfectly capture their meaning. What is "grinding titles" but "killing monsters." As best I can tell, you want rewards without having to go out and kill stuff. I find that odd in an RPG.

If you guys want to see grind, try Silkroad :)

I'm a new voice here though I've bought Prophecies the day it was in stores, and played it on and off ever since. I've been holding off on the other campaigns until EotN came out, which I at last caved into and happily explored, and I'm now working through the NF missions. I've no doubts Factions will follow in the months to come.

So after I beat the missions, what is there for me to do? Aim for something more :) I've never been much of a PvPer, even in other games - this area simply doesn't hold much interest for me - so my time is going to be spent, yes, grinding, towards titles and various similar rewards. And I don't mind a bit. In fact, I'm looking forward to it. My current side-goal is to decorate all my new heroes with awesome gear, get them up in my HoM, then go from there and figure out what more I'd like to max out ;) Because there is really a lot to do.

I may be an exception because I've only been able to really enjoy the Warrior class although I've tried them all, and so only one of my characters gets used 80% of the time. It's easier to concentrate on attaining titles. But I enjoy having something to do in my spare time, even if it means doing it several times over. Plus people tend to leave out that you don't necessarily have to grind for every item yourself - you can trade and sell and buy. When it comes to titles, you really have to decide whether it's worth it for yourself. In EotN, do you need the Asuran and Norn and Monument and Dwarven armor? Chances are, not at all. So you concentrate on one or two at most, do all the main and side quests (learning the lore and backstories of NPCs along the way), do some dungeons, and maybe have to grind the remaining small amount. If you want all, you're going to have to spend the time for all, and to me, this makes perfect sense. And unless I missed something, nowhere in this thread did I see alternative suggestions to how to handle the armors - so as to make them a reward, but still require players to spend a significant amount of time and effort.

GW is an absolutely beautiful game, and I can take my time with it. Since I'm not paying a monthly fee, I don't feel rushed - there's no feeling that I must be putting hours into it everyday to get something out of my money. Now if you live and breathe this game already and you have this tunnel vision for all the things you have to achieve, I can understand how you'd get fed up after a point and say "Enough is enough." When that happens, it's time to take a break. And in my opinion, it's not the fault of the game creators. I believe that no game existing will keep you captivated for 2-3 years to the same degree, you are bound to lose some of that passion. I think this is something you have to recognize, along with the fact that no game community will remain the same over such a course of time. Everything goes through an evolution.

My post is not addressed to anyone specifically, it's more to cast another "vote" to the "I still enjoy GW a lot" box and level the sides some. I know a lot of things have changed and many people have become disillusioned and dissatisfied, but that's not the whole picture, so to speak. I'm highly satisfied with the game and I will continue playing for a long time. I won't be the only one.

But you (general public) have to understand when it may be time to let go. I just recently left a game I've been involved with for ~3.5 years, and I have no regrets either at my spent time or saying goodbye at the end. And unless the real and evident majority of a game's playerbase is sinking, which does not appear to be the case here, it's safe to assume that your dissatisfaction is on a personal scale, and the developers cannot please everyone.

Thanks for reading and sorry for stretching this out :)

What is killing monsters repeatedly called then then? Now your trying to argue that grind doesn't exist? What drug are you on, and can I have some?

Killing stuff is one thing, doing that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is another thing altogether. And why do I have to do this? Oh, to enjoy 100% of the 40 USD I spent on one big giant backstab known as GW:EN. Your just being silly now.

Let me remind you one more time what grinding is.
Click the image link. You may need a magnifying glass to read it. Look very closely, I think my point is clear.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9731/grindingpn0.jpg

Are you the "majority" here, do you represent the entire GW community? :)

"Killing monsters repeatedly" is still called "playing an RPG," sorry. You didn't mind doing it to level, you didn't mind doing it to make money. Presumably you didn't mind doing it to get the bonus/masters on missions. You didn't mind doing it back when you were enjoying the game, in short.

Titles are a means of making characters more powerful without actually raising the level cap. You kill stuff, you become more powerful so you can kill more stuff. It's a fairly standard RPG mechanism. What's unusual about GW is that, once you reach level 20, you're pretty much competitive. All the "beyond level 20" power additions are incredibly minor. They're just something to work for once you're done levelling.

You're tired of playing the game, that much is clear. You no longer want to kill things, it's become repetitive for you. That's fine, too, it sounds like you've gotten many hundred (thousands?) of hours out of it. That's an incredible money to time enjoyed ratio. If you think you can do better with another developers products, though, it's your prerogative to swear off Anet.

Oh and "backstab?" Honestly, it's a game, the histrionics just make you look silly. I hope you enjoy whatever game you move on to.

The point you make is very valid - there are games that have grind as a base mechanic to extend gameplay. If you, as a player, enjoy the concept of grind, and a certain percentage of players do, then you should play a game that has grind as a concept engineered and designed in from the start.

Guild Wars was not designed to be grindy, as that is not compatible with the PvP level playing field concept. Grind as in repeating content for in-game advantage is a relatively recent addition, and has a bolted-on feeling to it. If it has been designed in from the start, we as players would not notice the new grind as much, since it as it is now it stands out like a sore thumb, because it is implemented poorly. There is no other way to put it - ANet is doing grind badly.

This is of course an opinion, just as valid as yours. But read the GC game conference speech by Jeff Strain - it is on the guildwars.com website under events. He makes a point of saying that developers who attempt to imitate WoW will fail because WoW has its particular groove, and they are best placed to make the next clone of WoW, because they are already there. In the same token, Guild Wars should stick with the ideas that made it as big as it is now - and grind is not one of those ideas.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Edit - fix misspelling

I don't want to sound like an ass (but I guess I am) but you make it sound like
GW:EN is the only GW game that makes you grind for the armors you want. With factions there is a grind to get the elite kurzick, luxon and canthan. Why do I say this? Because you need to get that 10k faction with whatever faction you are aligned to progress and get to the areas with those armors. The same is true with Nightfall, some what, you have to get to get to sunspear general to move on.

Rahja because you have stated many times that GW was made to be grind free and that grind was never going to be introduced, I have gone through the trouble of going and finding the game descriptions and posting them in this thread:

In a world torn by conflict, where human kingdoms are all but destroyed and guilds sacrifice all for a chance to control the Hall of Heroes, a champion must rise from the ruins of a once-proud land to lead refugees from the ashes and fulfill an ancient prophecy. Will that hero be you?

Hmm so far it has said nothing of the game being grind free but read what is bolded.

Now here is the part about factions:

Once again it says nothing about being grind free.

Here is the part on nightfall:

Once again nothing about being grind free. But because the whole central theme of your rant about to much grind seems to be about GW:EN I will copy its product description.

Once again it says nothing about being grind free.

Really, this supposed "grind" is nothing more than playing the game. Also Rahja it seems like you haven't played many MMOs that have lots of grind, because if you did then you would know the so called "grind" in guildwars is extremely minimal.

I just wanna stick in here, dont know if said already, but none of these titles are REQUIRED to do ne thing. If you want the bonuses good. Helps you later. If not then oh well. Your loss. Like OP said. There rewards for doing something. Such as, reward for R5 is Special Armor available. No different than playing another game to unlock something.

I don't look silly, not after what I have done for this gaming community at large, nor will I allow you to say such slander.

Never once have I power leveled my characters to level 20, never once. You can get to level 20 in 1-2 days by simply completing quests (even faster in Factions/Nightfall) That was the beauty of Guild Wars, you didn't have to grind very much if at all to get 100% of the content. FoW armor was really the only exception, and it was what.... 1% of the content? So, I think the pennies you "paid" to have the chance to get FoW armor won't be missed.

But then comes Eye of the North.... grind required to make the PvE skills remotely useful, time required to even be able to craft the armor, completely ignoring the fact that it still requires high levels of materials for which you must gather. Forcing grind onto players to to unlock 100% of the content is why myself and many others are angry. Notice the amount of agreement in the thread versus the devil's advocates that believe (as I used to) that Arena Net can do no wrong. It seems the MAJORITY feel betrayed by Arena Net, or at least are unhappy with the current design for a number of reasons.


And NO! I never stated the game should be grind free, it is an MMO for God's sake! It is going to have some form of grind, that is what they do. r5 Titles are not for special armors, they are for elite armors that were advertised under the umbrella that hours spent playing are not as important as player skill. The content is advertised as available, not via grind, but via SKILL. There is no skill involved in killing monsters in normal mode. 3 nukers, an SS, 2 monks, a warrior, and a ranger. YOu will mow down anything very quickly, especially if your using H/H and do it with exacting efficiency. I never once said Guild Wars was designed to be grind free, quite the opposite. Don't try and make me look foolish ok? Thanks.

In the spirit of your above quotes from game descriptions, I have taken the liberty do the same.

Hmm, notice it doesn't say after achieving r5 in a special title to please the crafter? They changed the way you get the armors radically, and they "forgot" to mention it.

I understand what you mean, thanks :) I've just read this post, and it expresses what I feel quite well, particularly this portion:

I suppose the two basic stances are "The grind is new and doesn't belong here," and "I'm still enjoying the game, regardless." So you're presented with a choice if you're in the former category: do you stay and try to make your time enjoyable still, or is it perhaps time to move onto something else?

[edited to add]

EotN is an expansion, and as such it is meant to give older players something more to do. I feel they did an adequate job providing content to keep players entertained to a degree, and if anyone doesn't want to go through the "grind," don't. I personally don't view it as grinding, I'm working towards a goal. It's a difference in mentalities, I suppose. Mine seems to work well for me :)

I had only about 25-30 K gold to my name when I decided to do my skill cap titles a few months back. I farmed like crazy when i needed more sig money, and had all 3 continents capped in about a two week period. I started with about 10% of the caps already done. I remember how boring it was, both farming for the $$'s, but also zoning, kill boss, cap, check wiki, zone. I didn't get a single green drop in all those kills too. That was a grind, it wasn't "regular game play", and it was soo boring. What did that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. No ingame benefit, other than having a bunch of elite skill's to try and pick one of for my skill bar. No real point to my story, much like most of the posts by people arguing against the OP. Rahja, you've summed up a good chunk of players' feeling's about the current state of the game, myself included. Other people have made decent counter arguments, but nothing to make me think "wow, i was wrong this whole time." Sorry to hear about the ban, if you ever decide to come back online, let me know, pm me and we can go play together. I have a flower in inventory you could have, might cheer you up. momo

I still enjoy the game, and what ever little birdy told you I don't, I am going to shoot it out of the sky. I don't take gaming all too seriously, after all the word "game" is in it. Guild Wars was not founded on principles of grind, it has had them introduced extensively to better "fit in" with everyone else and as an attempt to keep the player base happy until the much heralded Guild Wars 2 comes about.

"Slander"?

Seriously man, it's a game. It's not fun for you anymore. You've informed the developers of WHY it's not fun and what you think could be done to change it. You've done your bit, and I find it hard to believe you've got nothing better to do with your time than talk about being "backstabbed" by a game and "slandered" by idle commentary on a gaming forum. I really find it hard to believe you've got nothing better to do than make jpg's that say "over and over" endlessly.

Find a new game to enjoy, and try not to take gaming in general so seriously. It's supposed to be something you do to relax and escape, don't let it get your blood pressure up. Oh, and down the road, if you feel like it, come back and give GW another shot. You may like it, you may not, but I find at times when I stop enjoying the game and start ranting on the forums that I'm always better off dropping it for a few months and doing something else to chill.

Ha! You think that I think that Anet can do no wrong? Well you are very wrong my good sir. When Anet nerfed rits and added exhaustion to spirits and skills I was furious, when Anet nerfed paragons I was furious. I know Anet can and has made wrong decisions. What game developer can make a perfect game? None can, but Anet has gotten pretty darn close. But I am getting off topic.

What do you mean by the Majority? Majority of the GwG community? Or do you mean Majority of the player base? If you mean the player base then you are sadly mistaken.

Eh, only one of my 3 accounts is banned, and it is only 72 hours for "veiled anti semitic statements" Yes...... obviously Banocaust is anti semitic and only Jewish people should be banned because of the /report function... yep...... lol... (if you didn't notice the flow of raging sarcasm there, I am sorry)

Anywho... again, it isn't so much the current game that I am angry at. I am more angry that Arena Net marketed Eye of the North as a continuation of the Guild Wars franchise when the basis of 25%+ of the content is bound to the idea of grind, killing monsters in mass quantities, clearing a zone again and again to gain points toward a specific title, whatever you want to call it. Granted, the other chapters had their hints of grind for certain, but that grind was here and there, not in every single location known to man. They didn't advertise nor warn veteran players of the series that the gameplay would be taking a radical twist towards being more focused on grinding for reputation. They made it seem as though the rewards for grinding were going to be merely vanity, perhaps the stand alone armor pieces and SPECIAL UNIQUE items, not every last armor set in the game and 33% of the new 150 skills. There seems to be this new trend with Arena Net and the word "veiled". Hmm....

No, I mean the majority of the player base. ANd no, I am not mistaken. You can go into the game at any given moment, ask the question in public chat "Are you happy about the grinding you have to do on each character that you have to get rewards in GW:EN?" 60% or more of the people that respond say no, they dislike it. You can also ask any given district in GW:EN at any given time if they are happy about mini pets being customized to a character in the HoM. How many of them say "Yes, I certainly am" Probably somewhere between 5%-0%. Ask them if they like grinding endlessly to increase their title tracks, 60%+ will say NO. I know the community fairly well, and I don't just mean the GwG/GWO community.

On that note, no one knows what the majority of the player base thinks so trying to confirm or deny something is a bit over-the-top don't ya think? I could counter and try and say that random sampling of players, even only 1% of players, can accurately tell the story of the overall opinion of the GW community.

I digress, I'm only in this thread to try and figure out why some posts are posting out of order as vinraith's and rahja just did.

Yes, I was wondering about that myself. I did edit my post after making it (I'm terrible about that, always coming up with something else to say). I don't know if that has an impact. I do note that rahja's quote includes my edits, which would normally imply he'd made it after I hit save.

Oh, and I tend to agree that you can't gauge the community opinion the way rahja seems to think you can. The simple fact is that anyone that answers questions in chat (or even has chat on) or turns up on a forum is self-selecting for people that are upset with some aspect of the game. The proportion of people complaining about the game to people happily playing the game is, I suspect, quite low.

Same here. If I had known back in Prophecies the amount of titles grind there would be after the second campaign I would've just made 1 PvE char and the rest PvP. And after a while all the quests just feel like repetitive FedEx runs with no real feeling of accomplishment or reward, so I just do the main missions to trudge along to the end.

Well I went into the Eye of the North outpost to find out what people thought of the GW:EN faction related titles and this is a screen of the only answers I got.



I suppose this isn't the best way to find out and I guess that majority of everyone there had their local off because of the guild recruitment spamming.

But according to you Rahja both of the responses I got should have been I hate them.

A very well written and thought out thread, I strongly agree.

"Guild Wars : Eye of the North : For the anti-social gamer with too much time on their hands"

...kinda says it all I think.

The 'carrot-on-a-stick' grind in WoW seems so successful, why not try it here?

It's too bad though. I'd be playing WoW if I wanted that crap. Let's hope that we can help influence Anet to take the high road and avoid the mindless grind game component.

BTW, nice guild, Rahja

I gotta agree with you 100%. I have lost interest in guild wars completely after Eotn came out, because of the grind needed. I enjoyed the first guild wars the most because it had that original vision of skill over time, and that is what i believe made it unique. Eotn is just a step closer to WoW with the high amount of grinding needed. From what i read on gw2 on it's increased level cap or no level cap, its taking the final step to match WoW...They have lost one customer, thats for sure.

I like how a lot of people mess this up. The whole high level cap or no level cap thing is just a mechanic that Anet is putting in the game to show how experienced you are. Take for example a new character that just reached level 20 and another level 20 character that has 5mill exp. How can you tell the difference? This limitless level cap is just for show, the way I understand it (I am pretty sure I am right) when you reach level 20 in guild wars 2 you will stop getting health and attrib points but you will still grow levels. So a level 99 character will be no stronger than a level 20 character.

You have no idea what you're talking about. This sentence is completely devoid of any kind of common sense or basic form of logic. How has it devolved? Guild Wars was always about PvP, grind, PvE-skills that are completely seperate from PvP don't ruin that.

Have a nice day!

completely and totally wrong according to Mike O`BRION and Jeff Strain.

you will keep on gaining with each level or what point is there

as for nor being stronger they (Strain/O`Brion) stated there would be a very strong *SIDEKICKING SYSTEM* which would allow a much weaker lower level player to join a much stronger higher level group who would sidekick them for the duration of the mission/quest/exploration/etc so they could survive instead of insta snuff.

they stated this was similar to COH sidekicking system and needed to allow community interaction regardless of player level.

so levels will count and a level 20 will not even be close to a level 40 let alone a level 70/100.

as long as they have things to do all along the way i dont care if it takes 6 months or 2 years to reach level 100 or higher.

it is the fun along the way that counts for me

Neither does the fact that a character whos already saved the world can travel back to a region and do it all over again... Exactly the same as it was.

Really there is no perfectly coherent story in this game. Acc. Based stuff wouldnt be bad.

Rahja, great post and I agree with you.

I felt really lucky I was able to experience the vision the game started with, being a beta player and the community that existed at the time was totally different as you know. Sadly, when game companies will bend their will to bow to the greater demand (which I would only deem unavoidable for public companies) we are all deprived of something amazing. I guess the demand was too great to ignore and ANET didn't have enough staff to make another game to fill that niche so they did what they did.

I won't go into too much detail. I feel it is really sad that people have taken a great tool of communication that is the internet, that allows them to meet anyone from anywhere, and have used it to isolate themselves in cyberspace. What next? GW no longer needs an internet connection because it turned into a offline rpg?

I made some amazing friends in GW, mainly during beta. Friendships that lasted years and enriched me as a person. People that have brought me many benefits IRL, socially and in other ways. I know it is a PITA pugging with griefers and you could grind faster with h/h. WTF though, it is a GAME not work, it's supposed to be a fun time with people. Make an effort and learn how to make friends people.

I always make an effort to get a pug now, at least on missions. I try to help other players with their skill bar and give them tips.

I find that when I'm pugging, even the missions that I've done over and over again are really fun. Most people are willing to listen and change their builds so don't kick them if you see them with a noob build.

I'd take a real player over a hench any day.

If everyone made an effort to pug and help other players, GW could be so much better and even grind wouldn't be that bad.

I think it comes down the evolving design of character development. If Arenanet simply put less stock into character titles and more stock into immersion, Eye of the North would have been much more well received. I am not really angry with Arena Net the more I think about it. The better word to use would be disappointed. I understand why they made the changes, I understand why they added the grinding elements, but that doesn't make it right. The mini black moa quest is a great example, because it immersed the player into the world, and required knowledge of the chapters, the lore to some degree, and the terrain. It made the player really feel like they were on an adventure as opposed to just train killing one monster after another.

i think it's hilarious that people complained when titles first came out..."titles are so lame they don't even do anything!"
and now that they DO do something it's, "titles are so lame, i have to go earn them if i want optional stuff!"

I sometimes wonder if it just boils down to a matter of perspective.

I think it was Karyuu who said if you want grind, try Silkroad. (If I've put the wrong name on who stated such, I apologize).

I used to play another F2P MMO known as Flyff. I'm sure some of you, or many of you, know it and have played it. To me, that game is the absolute defination of "Grind", for there is nothing else for you to do in that game except Grind to level. You log in, you find a partner, you kill things. That's it. Grind your level up so you can get one new skill, maybe wear a new piece of armor. Then it's back to grinding, again. There is no gameplay content. There are only a handful of quests and they're anything but rewarding. There's no such thing as missions, end game content, story, worthwhile pvp, places to explore, events and/or events worth participating in. And if you think the GW community is awful, spend a month in Flyff. From my seat, the GW community is outstanding, helpful, and fun to be a part of. Not without it's bad apples, but wonderful nonetheless.

When I compare that of Flyff (and similar games as well) to what I've found in Guild Wars, Guild Wars is a polar opposite of what I view as a grind fest. Here, in Guild Wars, I've found things to do because there are things to do and not because I HAVE too, but because I choose too and it provides a challenge to do so.

I have missions to gain masters on - Still. I don't feel that's a grind. It kind of reminds me of the old days, like Super Mario Bros. on the NES, or Zelda. Stuck on one part of a level and it takes you 'x' amount of times before you figure out just the right way to do it.

I have yet to step foot into the FoW, or UW; I've been playing since December 2006. Yes, some peoples jaws have droppped, I'm sorry. I'm just waiting to do it with my Guild.

I've only recently unlocked Team Arenas. Again, sorry for your dropped jaw. It's mostly because I only pvp once a week, but I have a goal to make it to HA. It sounds like a blast.

I have Masters Difficulty Quests to finish.

I still have those pesky Titan Quests to take down.

I have two more parts of Sorrows Furnace to complete.

I have elites to hunt down.

I'd like to start doing GvG.

I've begun working on new classes that I've never played (Assasin, Rit, & Mesmer) so I can learn new methods of playing and gain more knowledge of abilities.

I still have Hard Mode to conquer. (Only working on that in Proph because I won't start HM in Cantha, or NF until I've earned my Protector).

There are still areas I've yet to fully explore and take in. It was only a month ago, or so, I discovered the portal between the Crystal Overlook and the Crystal Desert, a travel beteeen Elona and Tyria.

I don't have EoTN yet. Still more there.

....And there is more I could list, but I'll leave it for now.



Now I won't say that I don't have my fair share of discontent with certain decisions, choices, and mechanics Anet has taken since I've been playing. I do in fact have "issues" with some things. However, I still feel perspective is part of the larger issue. That perspective being what one defines as Grind and what one doesn't.

Because I'm not limited to one goal, that being just levelling, I find nothing in Guild Wars that falls into my catagory of "grinding". I have numerous personal goals that I'm choosing to achieve on my own time.


When I recieved Prophicies in Dec. 2006, it took me until early July, 2007 to complete it. Some of my friends did it in two weeks and got bored. Is that Anets fault, or someone elses? It was my choice to work through the game at my pace. Enjoying my surroundings, exploring every nook and cranny, reading all the quest dialogue, putting myself into the story, making sure I got "Masters" in all missions before proceeding to the next one. As a result, I have truly enjoyed every second of my time in GW and continue to do so. Sure, I was frustrated at times, but to succeed after so many failures, the enjoyment of completion is more enjoyable.

Surely I can understand that for those long time Vets of the game, who have been here since Day 1, probably have completed every aspect of this game. I, for one, can agree that over time a game can run its course on enjoyment. If I had all Guardian Titles, Cartographer, Maxed SS and LB out of my ying-yang, could run UW with my eyes closed, master every build, and so forth; yeah, I'd be bored out of my skull. However, I find it difficult to place blame soley on Anet. Any game, eventually, runs its course on players and there is a ton of truth in the saying that you cannot please everyone. Which leads me to this next part....

Maybe I'm not one to nitpick at wording on boxes for descriptions, but there's only so much one game can provide before the development of it equally runs its course, just as a players interest can run its course. Unlike many other MMO's who simply don't add new content ever, or when/if they do it's very little, GW still tries. That is something that can't be said for a lot of places. There's only so much a game can do to keep the game alive, for lack of better wording, without venturing across that fine line of making it a whole new game. From my seat GW1 has done it's best at providing new material without totally destorying the original concept. Of course, that's only my view.

And to that note, perhaps that's why we draw closer to GW2. For that the development on GW1 has long ago reached its pinacle for what it was intended. That it can no longer sustain its original values while keeping the community content with what's here. Now comes the time that the focus on development is directed towards the new version that all of us will start from scratch. So then will the cycle start over, where GW2 will breed to a new rise, growth, a pinacle, and in its following years after its release, begin to stale, but as far as GW2 is concerned, I'll save any opinions on what it is, or will be, when I've played it.

I also feel that perhaps some of the issues facing some players is the easy access to information on how to literally run through the game with little to no work. For instance, the wiki.

I have never used the wiki to guide me through any mission. Only until I complete the mission do I look it up to see what I did right, what I did wrong, and what I can do better next time; After I've done it on my own. I do the same with console games too. Take Final Fantasy games as example. Most of my Buds all bought the game guides and walk throughs. I didn't. They all finished it within weeks. Me? About 6 months. They were bored, I wasn't. But back on point, my primary use for the wiki is only for referencing material such as having on hand the correct amount of materials required for a certain set of armor, or looking up a term I don't understand. I honestly had to look up "FFF" before.


Anyways, with the amount of Runs people take by paying, the seemingly increased amount of begging in starter areas (ascalon, Kama, Shing), or simply having a complete walkthrough guide to the game so easily accessible, I often wonder if it really is such a surprise that some players quickly become bored with a game that has so much content in it. As though the idea of putting in a tiny bit of effort to achieve what you seek is a far fetched idea. Again, though, that is only my viewpoint and does not speak for anyone else but myself.

Anyways, I am sorry for writing a novel. I just wanted to add a perspective from a player who hasn't played from the start, but is still nonetheless, part of the Guild Wars community.