Enough is enough.

The funny thing is, its only those that don't like the supposed "Grind" that are hear whining about it, (ok maybe those at work that can't play, like me aswell of course)

However, this is all a pointless exercise when it may just be easier for these people to just move on

Again, that can be said for anything in the game. Example:

Why do you need max armor?
Why do you need max weapons?
Why do you need access to certain skills? Why access to skills unlocked on your account, for that matter?
Where will any of this give you any kind of 'staggering advantage?'

Ya don't need any of that! Plain and simple. But you know why everyone is allowed easy access to this stuff? Because it gives, if even a very slight, advantage. It puts everyone on a level playing field. Period. That was the mantra of Guild Wars from the beginning, and it has been slowly eroded away.

Who cares how little or great the advantage is, the point is: the advantage exists, and it favors those who spend time over those who are simply skilled. This is a small thing, but it is on an equivalent level as having readily available skills, max armor, and max weapons.

I will ask you this: if there were a weaponsmith that sold customized weapons/shields/off-hands that were a few points higher than max, but only to people with say, rank 8 rep (only useable in PvE, of course) - would you be ok with that? I mean, it's a trivial amount of benefit, right? Not any kind of 'staggering advantage.'

What do you mean by this, exactly? For any title the amount of time you put into it is going to determine how high it is. And it just so happens that, usually, the more time you put into something the better you get at it. For example, a rank 10 hero will most likely be better than a rank 5 hero at tombs, just as much as a rank 2 champ will be better than a rank 10 hero at GvG. Saying that, though, people need to realise that there are people who have the skill, just not the titles- but that's not ANet's fault.

I wouldn't mind the so-called grind half so much if the armour I could get from it was worthwhile..... As I have no interest in anything but maybe the Asura glasses..... it'll be for the few skills I can be bothered with or nothing.

Dwarven ranks for Drunken Master....
Asura ranks for Pain Inverter and MindBender.
That'd be it.



Now.... while in theory I agree with much of the Original Post... naturally there are a few disagreeances. One such is the matter of the attitude of players in Guild Wars. It is... and I say this in utmost honesty..... down to PvP primarily.
Guild Wars is much more PvP-oriented than most online RPGs.... and as such, it encourages a competitive atmosphere more than a cooperative one. It is all well and good to encourage people to team up.... but when everyone's character is on the same level and it all falls down to familiarity with builds.... and then you splice in those people who spend a lot of time in PvP beating up other teams and virtual-teabagging their fallen bodies.... you can't exactly be surprised that the average Guild Wars player is aggressive and uncooperative.
It kinda reminds me of when I used to play Quake 3 on the network back in high school... Fun times, but woe betide anyone who tried to be friendly in that room while Q3 was running.




In any case.... even if Arena Net don't care about Guild Wars any more... I'm going to carry on playing.
I'm also going to carry on trying to set an example in-game of how I personally think things should be... even if others don't agree. I play the game my way... allow others to play it their way... and help if help is requested (I give as I get, honestly).

And I'm sure much of the rest of us will carry on playing too.... in our own ways.
When life gives you lemons... squirt the juice back into life's eyes.

Very good post sir. I too had quit playing GW for a long while, i take breaks for months at a time. I bought the game to play with other people and have a good time but after about three months of questing with quitters, buildmongers and jerks i learned it isnt worth it to play with people. i have played other games for long periods of time and never before have i encounter such hostile behavior on a game. The only game that has ever competed with this amount of hostility is Starcraft. 12 year olds raging.

Henchmen just suck. and for a long time i really didnt like the game much because my choices were crappy npc's or hateful players. so i played other games. My prayers were answered with Nightfall. i got heroes i could customize and control, with enough practice its like using 4 characters at once and isn't that hard. But now i had to backtrack through the world collecting every skill and item best suited for my heroes. Not a cheap goal in the least at 1 plat per cap sig. But IMHO i would rather play alone than with hostile abusive gamers. and i am very grateful to Anet for allowing me this choice. if not for this choice i would have quit for good.

Titles never bothered me very much, i am a veteran Diablo2 LOD player of 6 yrs. in other words i grinded acts 3,4,5 for six long years collecting atleast one of each item in the game. So grinding isn't a big problem for me, thats not to say i like it. farming for me is not easy and i normally use 3heroes +henchies and flag them before i kill boss. i can do around 20-30 runs a day if im motivated enough, which for the past 3 months i have not been.

personally i dont care about the titles at all and the idea of needing a title to gain access to npc stores is really lame. i have not bough EotN yet and i dont plan on getting it for another few months. hopefully by the time i do they will have fixed a few things making it more appealing.

As to the Report system, i have very happy that they are finally cracking down on the uncivilized community. Being known as a GW player should not be a bad thing, but with the common additude found who can blame the steriotype. the GW community seems to be filled with unsupervised children and disfunctional adults. Not everyone is like this, but a vast majority are.
I believe if people wish to troll or bait they shouldnt be allowed to play. people who harrass others and scam should get banned, not suspended.

As for the Consumables, i am very happy about them and are one of the only things i have to look forward to aside from new heroes. I am not a daily player nor am i very dedicated, i like the game but i am not willing to sacrifice my life to attain its mastery. I am glad that Anet is begining to lighten up on the Casual players a bit. i still have yet to beat a single game and i'v been here since the begining. Some parts are simply too hard without help or lots of time to get everything. So things that lessen the difficulty are a nice treat.

Money has always been a pain, a serious pain for me, i only have 1 character i play and with hidden treasures and farming i only make about 40-50 plat every 2 months. so this is another fashion of grinding for me.

basically now with the impending arrival of GW2 within the next few years if not sooner, i see almost no reason to play GW1. Its like 4e DnD, why buy more 3.5 books if your going to buy 4e? i still play when i get bored, but for the most part my love for GW as died out to a simple mild interest.

also the Keys costing more than what the chests give you has really put a damper on my farming and money making because i cant sit in towns for weeks on end trying to sell all my items. GW was suppose to be a quick and to the point game and it turned into a part time job that doesnt pay.

Assuming that all the folks that aren't liked out there are trolls is tempting fallacy though. I'd expect most of them aren't at all. Certain situations will make some people naturally aggressive. Others just don't want to have anything to do with people at all.... or indeed see other modus operandi as infringing upon their own play-style.

Though it seems rather futile sometimes.... when I'm actually in game, I'd much sooner set a good example to others than condemn them for their own actions. Positive reinforcement makes for a friendlier atmosphere than negative.... not to mention working better.
Perhaps it is just ironic that as soon as I get out of the game and onto these boards, I go instantly into complain mode because I'm not in a position to do anything else.

Oh i used to try and be a nice person and ask people to be considerate and i got ragged on for it. 99% of the time i simply have all my chat boxes off, I'v found even guildies and alliance members to be rude and there is no way to prevent it. there are no standards to joining a guild, if someone is very skilled but a hostile jerk, most people allow it, ignoring it or provoking it and supporting it. GW players in general are very rude and this leads others to just play alone.

I would rather eliminate the risk of encountering someone who could ruin my fun, otherwise i run the risk of being sucked into some ridiculous argument or whatnot. most of the time i just get sick of listening to others flame each other, i can't for the life of me find gamers who just want to play the game and have fun. cooperation is very rare and understanding seems to be non existant in gw. this is an opinion formed over years and years of taking crap from people just to keep a group long enough to beat that pain in the ass mission. Which i can't even do anymore. after 5 months of being stuck at gates of madness due to quitters, buildmongers, jerks and un prepared heroes the game has lost its old appeal. Even my own guild and alliance is not helpful, i have yet to find a single guild that actually helps. I just wish i could use a full party of heroes, then maybe i could beat these damn games.

lol freeked guildwars has always been like this.. the playerbase is alot like runescape- there was very few elite players and the rest were a bunch of whining pansys who couldn't come up with a build for themselves to save their lives things never change really.. I'm just wondering why they don't offer the character slots in the new expansion- heros really dumbed the game down.. heck even the skills introduced in nightfall were way more powerful than previous skills.. I used to do things noone else could do- ex solo the first 2 rooms in the kanaxai mission when factions just released.. got so many rare skins doing that lol then they nerfed- same with solo farming sorrows bosses inside- these were things not done by the masses just the elite.. rachtoh is the only guy in this thread I even remember the rest are newcommers (he is the one responsible for the fow spider farming) I used to post builds but I stopped cause anet would literally nerf almost within an hour after a solo was posted.. remember they did this when they introduced that scarab queen in the desert chapt 1 lol I was selling those things like hotcakes first day made like 500k- posted the build and gayle kept comming in the thread and asking- can you solo it now? until finally the scarab queen was pretty much nerfed

factions made so much it wasn't even funny soloing wing's axe at the beginning and later on when they introduced the unges dagger- I was soloing ALL those mobs in rheas crater rofl that lasted awhile- I never posted a build after that though.. made the money quietly

bottom line is the game was alot of fun cause it was skill based.. you take out the ability to make soloing special, aka heros.. any half retarded guy can solo using them- that's when the game got boring.. don't get me started on solo uw for ectos- doing that before almost anyone else too.. there was a time you could make your monk totally invincible- literally go the store come back and have half the uw on you lol ectos used to sell for 14k at one time.. got a few in my inventory still and the economy is all noobed out now I'm sure fow is nothing special- ah well

This is what 99% of this thread is about, that we as a community don't want the fact that anet did a complete 180 from the origional concept of the game. Below is a scan of the inside of the original Guildwars box. Please read carefully the first little paragraph in the upper right of the picture.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3970/scan0001dh6.jpg

Now this is where we have a problem. This game is no longer about skill > time. Its about time + skill now with everything they have added to the game. Its about build choice > skill. Its about advantage > skill. Its about shortcut > skill. This game has gone completely the opposite way from the original design and implimentation of the game.

If you provide a skill or something that is scaleable, your almost always going to max that out or provide the most out of it you can. Providing skills that are scalable with a title track forces grind, wether or not anyone wants to admit it. Anything that scales such as titles are essentially grind. We saw the beginnings of this in Guildwars: Factions with the allegiance requirements to progress in the chapter. I knew then that this was a HUGE mistake and a HUGE blunder on ANET's part. This continued with the sunspear and lightbringer titletracks. Anet forced grind upon you. Granted it may simple to attain and readily available, but you're still being forced to do this in order to progress or continue. That is the problem that the community has.

Rahja,

Apart from resorting to personal attacks, I think you've pretty much nailed the discontent a lot of people have been feeling.

Having just come out of a big argument on a related topic (a proposal by freekedoutfish to make Asura and Norn titles generally applicable ) a few days ago, I'm probably not going to keep following this thread, but I thought I'd at least step in and make a few of my own comments:

* I think the moment at which things started on the slippery slope was when Seeker of Wisdom and Treasure Hunter started giving improved chances to salvage items without breaking. That one mostly went under the radar, especially as it was softened by a benefit for even those without a title, and while I grumbled about it a bit with people I play with regularly, I didn't think it was worth taking it to the forums - something which I'm now regretting. I will certainly be using Guild Wars as an example if some other company starts a game on the low max level skill-over-time-spent premise and then starts providing mechanical rewards (however small) to activities with the potential to be seen as grind by some players. Vanity is good, mechanical rewards... not so good.

* I think ANet dropped the ball with PvE-only skills. What I'd been visualising when the idea of such skills was first raised was the implementation of skills doing things that are appropriate to each profession wouldn't really be fair to do in PvP - being able to mind-control an enemy character, for instance. Instead, what we seem to have is a collection of what could be regular skills if ANet could be bothered to balance them properly (consider, for instance, the much-vaunted Necrosis. Compare it to Discord... which is an elite that does essentially the same thing but has a stricter condition to work. No wonder Necrosis is popular). Furthermore, GWEN compounded this by making the skills non-profession-specific: you can now have two traps on any character, for instance. Ideally, I'd have preferred the PvE-only skills to have been based on the existing attributes and simply to be a vehicle for introducing elements into the game that just wouldn't work in PvP.

* One interesting question that's been raised is the definition of grind. Possibly the best one I've come across went something along these lines: "Something you do that you don't enjoy doing so that you can do something you do enjoy doing later on." In Prophecies, anybody who found anything that fit this definition probably really should be looking for another game. In Factions, it started to sneak in for some people with the befriending quests, and it's been slowly rising since - until GWEN has become full of it. I think I'd enjoy running around forcing a level 20 Mursaat to kill White Mantle for me just for the irony factor, but to do that I'll have to complete the Polymock quests (which I don't enjoy, although I probably would if it wasn't for latency) and, if I'm not using a L16 Signet of Illusions to do the job (Hrrmn... I wonder what a L17 signet would do... Maybe I should try it with Assassin Support and try it out), I have to go around killing monsters to get to R10 Asura, something I definitely won't enjoy, and probably won't bother doing. Thus, for me, titles having a mechanical benefit leads to grind. If there was a way to get to R10 purely through styles of play I do enjoy, it wouldn't be grind for me... but it might be for the next person.

One thing that came up in freekedoutfish's thread was that I proved, to my own satisfaction if not necassarily to his, that a maxed title was roughly equivalent to two levels. On the other hand, it's only equivalent to two levels or so, and as the 'discussion' unfolded, one of the things I realised is that, while I like the level cap being 20, I actually wouldn't have minded as much if ANet had simply raised the level cap to 22 while I was violently objecting (okay, not literally) to his proposal. The difference was that an increase in the level cap would have simply required doing more of the things I enjoyed doing, earning experience along the way, to bring my characters back to their full potential, while to achieve that potential through maxing reputation titles requires engaging in a style of gameplay I don't enjoy - ergo, grind.

In short, if something feels like grind, it's grind, at least to you. If it doesn't feel like grind, it isn't grind... to you. Someone else's mileage may vary, and their opinion isn't worth any less because they happen to disagree with you. In all cases, though, grind is bad... so giving people alternate ways to gain a particular mechanical advantage in order to minimise the chance that they have to grind is good. (Vanity items, such as the titles themselves and armour, are fair game.)

Incidentally, where did I get that definition from? Well, my memory fails to give me their exact words, but the general idea came from a new games developer about to release their first online game onto the market somewhere around two and a half years ago...

* The above realisation is actually something that gives me some hope for GW2. Yes, I'd prefer that it kept a low cap, but while I can't say that I'm guaranteed to buy it, I'm not guaranteed to not buy it either - if the levelling system rewards all styles of play reasonably equally and there are enough things to do that it doesn't feel like a grind, I'll forgive the removal of the low level cap.

One thing I will miss, however, is the flexibility of characters. With the low level cap, if a friend or guildie asks for help in doing a mission... while my first port of call is usually to see if I have any characters who need that mission myself, my second check can be to ask the person which of my characters they'd prefer... and the third is to ask myself who I feel like playing today. Whichever character I choose (since they're all level 20) I can bring them confident that they'll be able to pull their weight without overshadowing my companions - a state of affairs that is unlikely to be maintained with unlimited or high level caps.

* I personally find it quite difficult to grasp how people manage to see mindless monster killing as a kind of last hurrah to keep giving them things to play in the game. I've been playing since Guild Wars was in alpha, and I'm in the same situation as Sinnocent: I may have done more than (he?) has done, but I've still got plenty of stuff left to keep me interested - get the rest of my 10 characters through every campaign, experiment with new builds, get my guild (or a PUG, if I can find one that isn't asking for cookie-cutter builds) together to take down some of those elite areas and quests, even go back to older areas and get around to completing some of those not-so-elite quests that I skimmed over the first time. Okay, I know not everyone has made the investment to have 10 characters and that doing a particular quest for the 10th time can be repetitive... but how is it really more repetitive than clearing Sacnoth, Varajar or Magus for the Nth time?

* As the above may have indicated, I'm one of the people who likes to play multiple characters. Most titles I've been pretty much ignoring, because I suspect that if I did try to stick with one character and max as many titles as possible with that character, I'd burn out just like so many posters before me apparently have.

I think that covers it. I'm probably not going to keep following this thread (eleven pages in fourty-eight hours is just a bit too fast-paced for me...) and I certainly don't intend to get into any more arguments, but if I think of anything else that seems pertinent I might drop back in.

PS Okay, one thing I will reply to since it was posted before this post went up: Nekretaal, to be fair, the bonus mission pack promotion doesn't expire for another four weeks. Even if "official" reviews aren't out yet, I think that gives enough time for people to see the response to GWEN on forums and come to an informed decision on whether to buy GWEN.

lol, even one point higher would be a blessing.

Skilled players can make do with non optimal weapons and slighty messy skill bars. But for the majority of us noobies. Being able to finish anything, in hero caused pugless gw:en, requires maxed weapons, armor and all the gold needed to get ourselves and our heros setup.

I want my drops back.

Funny.... I managed to find a decent pug for Gate of Madness within about 10 minutes of first asking for one.
Admittedly we had to go through it twice because there was a slight slip-up the first time against the lich (inexperience on the part of the group)... but we made it through.... and it was fun.

I've helped another PuG group through with my same character since... and once again it was a fairly fun experience. Didn't take long to gather the group together either.


If you're having THAT much difficulty, I reckon you just need to look in different districts to your usual fare.... or come on at a different time of day.



And the unhelpful idiots and folks who refuse to pull their weight? They can be ignored. They can be bypassed. When they all blab the same nonsense it isn't that difficult to just blank out their mewling altogether.
Of course NOW if you blank out their mewling they can report you for it.
And there are enough of them that someone might actually take a look at the report and act on it.

I am under the impression that some people here want Anet to beg for their forgivenes. On their knees. Wile refunding GWEN and giving them a free pile of 250 ectos to compensate for the mental suffering the grind in this expansion caused.

Seriously folks, get over it already.

Heh. FWIW, I got your back. I said exactly that, and the poo-flingers came out in waves spitting personal attacks because they had nothing else.

Truth is truth.

Guild Wars has abandoned the concepts that made the game what it was. Unfortunately for us, there is a demographic that likes these types of games, and it is they (looking at you, freekedoutfish) who actually enjoy the game for what it has turned into.

Maybe it is we who are the niche, who like GW for what it was. If so, then ANet is just following the money, as any business will.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I have never said that I didn't agree with the game doing a complete 180. To that we can agree. Its other information you've posted that we disagreed on

Do you know what would happen if people actually do get over this game? Hah, I bet you won't like it (not that I care).

[In Arthas's voice]
"This Community shall FALL!"

Context.

Not "get over the game" .... but "get over the bits of the game you don't like to get to what you do".

[QUOTE]WRONG

THERE IS STILL A MONTH TO QUALIFY AND READ REVIEWS

that is still a month away you......................

i think they should have expanded on prophecies rather than come up with new chapters. the expansions would have REQUIRED people to get prophecies, which in my opinion, was the least-stressful and the least grinding. Do not get me wrong. I enjoy grinding...it gives me a degree of achievement. However, I do not think that r5 in titles is a fair way to "unlock" armor (and yes i have r5+ on all titles, and I enjoyed doing it). They just messed up with the entire chapter campaign way of doing things. for one, everyone would have had the "training" area that presear had. Also, it would have people in all missions, seeing as everyone would have had to buy prophecies. whatever. im not falling for this again. gw2 will be no different: LFG LVL 60+ PLZ NO NUBZ <60 GO L2PKTHX. anet...man how you guys screwed up.

I agree 100%. If they had just made expansions to the original game, there would be a couple things improved:
1.) Everyone would have the same game. Spreading out would be either nonexistant or very subtle.
2.) They wouldn't have had to waste time thinking up new tutorials, gunking up the beginning of both Factions and Nightfall. God, Istan and Shing Jea are just so freakin' boring.
3.) Instead of making terrible, terrible mistakes on the gameplay mechanics, they instead could have more listened to the community as a whole and build the content of their expansions from there. I love Nightfall and Factions, but they seriously messed them up.
4.)I liked the whole idea they had of a large "Guild Wars Universe" they planned from the very beginning, but again, they did not have to go with the whole 6 months a campaign plan. Why do you think they cancelled it in the first place? They wanted to expand, to create, to flex their legs. They wouldn't have needed to do this if they just went with expansions. I doubt GW2 would even be in development in some alternate universe where they did. GW:EN was just awesome, I want more of that.

actually you are the nitch and add me to the list as a dedicated casual player

the terms are not mutually exclusive.

i can even tell you the exact moment the *writing on the wall* appeared but i will be the first to admit it slipped right past me at the time.

JEFF STRAIN was doing an interview post sorrows furnace and a few months before factions.

he said one thing that was the future and i missed it completely at the time.

he said
[QUOTE]
they are going for the mass market not some little nitch market

I agree that there is a large market for the genre of games where the power curve is very large, from bottom to top. The side effect of that sort of game is that time played, thus level earned, is a replacement for the innate player aptitude for the game. The success of Guild Wars Prophecies shows that there is also a market for a flatter game, and the very quote you are making shows that there is a market for that kind of game as well.

The point I am trying to make is that one of several things is going to happen, sure as anything, in that ANet will retain this niche (or game type, specialty, game class, genre, whatever term you prefer), or they will not and a replacement will be made. If there is money to be made, someone will do it. In fact, there are some GW spinoffs coming already, and as Strain alluded to in his recent speech, the best team to build the next GuildWars is presumably the current GuildWars team, unless they vacate the space.

Even you are conceding that GuildWars is changing from its original vision. What we should be concerned about is whether ANet will vacate the space.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

It was Fow armor that was, in fact, the perfect type of grind for Guild Wars. It set apart players who spent the time to get it. However, it didn't make other players into second class citizens because the armor at Droks was functionally the same. But, this has changed in Eye of the North (and to a lesser extent in Nightfall). I'll spot the casual gamer to a R3 norn. Even then, the level 10 norn has +7 armor, +80 health, and does 56 more damage every 3 seconds with Ursan Strike. They do more damage and have a better chance to survive attacks. Per your quote, "Not a single one gives you a strategic advantage," would you care to define what an advantage is then, if this isn't? If one 7/8 group is looking for a tank, who will be picked?

Obsidian armor wasn't a guarantee of petter performance. The player could have ebayed the cash, or simply spent a lot of time 55ing without a lot of work on actually doing anything else. But, if a rank 10 norn can do significantly more damage than a rank 3 norn, the skill of the person playing takes a back seat. Any rube with the wits to press "c space c 1 c space c 1 c space c 1" can be a boon to the party if they simply have a more powerful skill that triggers when they press the button.

I remember how you used to herald the argument that a collector's sword was just as good as a crystalline. It didn't do any more damage, after all. I agree. Collector gear served me well. So, where's my collector's equivalent to a rank 10 norn's Ursan Strike?

@Gaile

I was not interested in a lot of "elite" armor, or destroyer weapons (I did collectors) and loved the 1.5K

It's the Hall of Monuments and the GW2 "unlocks" that making a lot of people feel they have to get this. This is what driven me for Kuzark fff, Wurm Mode HM Farming in Nightfall, and HM/Mapping and titles. I was never interested in this stuff until then.

PvE's play the way they want to play but as soon as HoM was linked to yet unknown GW2 unlocks, a lot more are going to take interest and feel frustrated due to having a lot more work (use the term work on a game loosely). It's kinda like how players will play more then there use to for holiday events just because it's a holiday.

[QUOTE]first this is not intended to be negative at you in any way and i apologize in advance if needed.

since it was stated by the devs that they are being very sure that none of the unlocks will give a player any advantage why are people seeming frantic to get everything now?

myself for example i am not spending anything now as i am happy with my Drok armor i got more than 2 years ago and i will simply wait to see what will unlock what in GW2 as i dont wish to waste time on why did i unlock this instead of that?

you can add to the hall at any time so i will save up stuff on my mule account and when the time comes i will get whatever turns into what i want to unlock.

why waste the effort when i can be playing for fun instead of feeling i have to get something right now.

again no offence meant but i am curious

Ok so are you for or against Anet creating more interest in certain areas of the game that were lacking before?

People have always crossed the same maps over and over killing things, but now you get a tangable reward for doing so.

I like the game as it now is, could it be better, ofcoures!

[QUOTE=Loviatar]Not offened at your post at all.

There so many elements that have "collectable card game apeal" and with enough time you can "collect" it all. I own all the Collector's Edition, own all the direct song packs (even had to buy a copy of the SE version of GW to get one of packs).

I was happy with the fact I don't own perfect golds (used collectors), had 1 maybe 2 sets of 15k, fow was not even a dream, and content with having every ele skill on ele character from all 3 games.

My version of done was to take a charater, have the weapons / armor I wanted, get 100% of the skill of the primary profession and have every town / outpost mapped, and of course beat all 3 games.

Since it's been stated HoM will unlock stuff in GW2 that exculsive and it's based of titles, elite armor, hero upgrades, and destroyer weapons. This has driven me (can't explain what the cause was) to get as many unlocks as I can reasonbly get. I know others out (not everyone) there similiar to me will be feeling since it can be unlocked they will feel a complusion to do so. Even if they give zero combat advantage.

I feel a lot of this friction is having to do stuff for these unlock that feel like grind (compred to FFXI, gw is NOT grind).

I understand Gaile postion but wanted to state what I feel (and others that feel simliar) the way the unlock works will drive someone to be upset and/or change the way they play.

Having what unlock do happen in GW2 would help greatly but.. I don't think even Anet has this set in stone other then a lose idea. Just talking about thoughts and feelings from the dev's about the HoM would help.

WTB That game.

My build works everywhere. On any enemy. In any area. And if I have Rank10 in the Asuran Title Track, my skills become more powerful.

If I have Rank8 in the Lightbringer Title Track, I will be able to take less damage and do more hits to my enemies.

If I have Rank7 in my Wisdom and Treasure Hunter Title Track, I will only have a 8% chance to lose my items when I salvage from them. Thus, I will 'waste' less money than you.

In short, all my titles that take time to get make me a better player than you. I have better skills. I take less damage. I do more hits. I spend less money.

Now, if you'll escuse me. That group that was about to choose you to PuG with them chose me instead.

"Why?" you ask?

... I think it's quite obvious... You are an inferior player compared to me.

You lack time.

There are quite a few posts that I wish I couldn't say this, but Qft.

I have several guildies with vanquish titles, but it takes time to get those.
Time you cannot spend on other things.
I do understand it's not a priority title.
They don't show the vanq title, because they show their KOBD track.
I'm one of the few in my guild that wears a legendary (carto) instead of PKM.
I'm helping guildies out with their HM titles most of the time and am not working active on my own titles.

There is however one title I'd like to be account based.
It's the skill cap title.
It's a usefull title for unlocks, but not on more than one account.

Now, thats interesting thought.

i mean the effectiveness of a grind based skill its not (primarily) determined by my own skill as a player, but by how much i have grinded, this is not the game i bought.

to OP:
HERE HERE (its not spelled wrong i just want you to drink lol)
il rase my glass to that, excellent post i agree so much with your ideals that it makes me want to quit GW in general but i dont see that happining anytime soon.

Well there are a couple things you over looked tho, yes GW has screwed up alot including the drop of competion and fun for GvG and changeing it to AB (another move for the anti social) But look at the bright side we still have guilds.. im not in a "top Guild" because i chose not to, those guilds are generaly very anti social and personaly i feel there way to up tight. But If you place your self in a good guild thats fun funny active and highly social it makes your experiance that much better, i believe the anitial design of guilds and alliances was brilliant but they seriously need to creat compitions not only for top guilds but all guilds noting to do with GvG or pVp in general but mabey somthing silly or fun like guild races or funnyist video there plenty of options comon Anet get creative again! I miss it so much.. some times id give all i have in this game to be able to go back to proph back when it first came out =) when the people were friendly and the times were easy...
great post and Cheers to you mate

To the OP: I feel pretty much the same way as you, which is why I'm currently taking a break from the game. I too have been playing this game from the beginning (or before the beginning if you count alpha/beta) and saw what I felt to be the perfect online game. It had almost everything I wanted in an online RPG... of course there were things it didn't have that it could have used, but that didn't matter at the time. To watch it devolve into what it has with each chapter has been rather painful for me, and sadly I likely won't be getting GW2, unless it goes back to the roots of the game I thought it was going to become. I'm actively looking for new MMORPG's, but none I've tried have even come close to the experience I had when I first logged into Guild Wars so long ago.

Fact: If PVP was still the only thing to do after completing the PVE part, i would have left this game more the na year ago due to overly elitist HA crap.

I rather grind the same area a couple of times then playing the overpowered build of the month over and over and over and over.... (and if i wouldn't use it, i simply wouldn't be able to get a party)

So PVP can be removed altogether for all i care.

Alright, to save my own face, I have removed my personal attacks on Arena Net's marketing team. That was wrong of me, and I do apologize. Anger got the better of me.

Now, on to something more interesting....

I am noticing something come up a lot in this thread; people are angry about having to do this grind on multiple characters, and feel as though they are being forced into playing one character because the titles are character based, not account based.

Now here is another interesting argument that can be made. The original introduction of Guild Wars came with a great clause in it. Arena Net founded the game with the principle that the level cap was 20, so you could have multiple characters and enjoy each class rather then just focusing on one character. What happened to that motto? Again, another thing Guild Wars was founded on that has all but disappeared. I didn't get FoW armor on 5 characters only to use my monk and never see the other 4 sets. I wanted to use all my characters equally, depending on what a group needed or what my friends wanted to do. It is silly to only be able to play one class in the game now, or rather, to have a main character if you ever want to achieve anything in the current game.

Frankly, I see this as yet another fatal flaw in Eye of the North, and even Nightfall for that matter. Nightfall started this trend, Eye of the North simply expanded on it 40x over. The fact is, if you want to have the experience of playing multiple classes in the game now, you are being "punished" by Arena Net because you don't fit into their new grind design. Grind Wars wasn't the game I fell in love with, Guild Wars was. I certainly hope they realize that in Guild Wars 2, and not Grind Wars 2: World of Grind Craft.

As a side note, this thread appears to be the most popular issue thread in Riverside right now. Safe to say, this is a pretty big issue, be you for or against it.

Ok, have i missed something here? i finished GW:EN today and still the only times I've had to grind anything in the entire game was Sunspear and Kurzick faction... and they weren't even for GW:EN content... So what have i missed that i need to grind for? I have max armour, i have max green weapons, I'm lvl 20 and have enough gold and mats to make 15k armours, so what have I missed?

The fact that if you want anything in GW:Nightfall as far as progression of the storyline, or any weapons, armor, or consumables in GW:EN, youre forced to do these things.

If this game was truly ment for the casual player as has been mentioned, than everyone at any time would have access to these things. In Nightfall, it was bad to have implimented it in as part of the storyline, much less later add skills that are scalable with this title track. In GW:EN it was the wrong idea to make ANY of the skills linked to the title tracks, much less the NPC's.

Lone, essentially, you either have to go out of your way and do every single side quest + kill monsters repeatedly with the hunt blessings, or you have do do a good amount of side quests and kill a LOT of monsters repeatedly with hunt blessings. Also, you probably did dungeons. Your a hardcore player Lone, despite what you might say. Casual players wouldn't try and run a Guild Wars radio and start their own website. Casual players wouldn't have the time to go on 2+ hour dungeon runs to farm dwarven points, they wouldn't have the time to go on multiple Asura point farm runs south of Rata Sum. They also wouldn't have the time to clear Drakkar lake multiple times to get r5 Norn. That means they are not allowed to access those "40 new armor sets" that are ADVERTISED. The grind locks casual players out of a lot of the content unless they change from being a casual player to a semi devoted player. Maybe they don't have the time for that? Real life comes first in most peoples' books.

OP,

I'm sorry, but Guild Wars has evolved and so have its players who are now veterans. To expect ArenaNet to keep Guild Wars from evolving would ultimately kill the franchise. Look around there are alot more MMORPGs out there now and they are constantly being improved as the genre progresses.

Ask any MMORPG player from any other game other than Guild Wars and they will tell you their game has evolved or faded away. World of Warcraft isn't the same game it was from the beginning, neither is games like City of Heroes.

Problem isn't the game, its the players. Grind exist because you're no longer that newbie who's never played a MMORPG. There's no surprise any more and your just going through the motions.

Solution, take a break from MMORPGs.