Enough is enough.

"Everyone" - what? He said DEVELOPERS OF OTHER GAMES describe their games as 'It's like WoW but'". He did not say GW2 was going to be like WoW. He in fact said the exact opposite.

Since when did developers of other games suddenly become "everyone".

what can I say, is their way to say "thank you" to players like Rahjah who make events for the community.

edit: although what you said is kinda different, you know, there's still people who get deeply offended by reading some words...

I understand what the OP is saying, but you people have to take a step back and get some perspective.

First of all, skill>time is definitely one of the concepts I like in this game (i.e. skill choice and use skewed to be more important than gear), but in PvE it is all but meaningless. Who cares how good you are in your own personal instance of North Kryta Province. (For those who do care, there is HM, which does require *some* skill.) The PvE world is about telling a story and earning money, not about using your uber skills to beat the mediocre AI. In PvP, skill>time is still true, and GW PvP remains the best of any MMO by far.

People are complaining about grinding. "Grinds" like cartography or FoW armor are all about one thing, and one thing only. Prestige after beating the game. This is an obvious necessity in *any* MMO because there is only so much content and once you've done it, it's done. So if you don't want to grind, play a single player RPG. What do you expect? That you should be handed any armor set you want, or any weapon, or any title without doing any additional work? If not, then clearly you must be made to repeat some content multiple times to get the reward.

Is this bad game design? No, and you've proven it yourselves. Every person who complains about the grind is complaining because they *want* the prestige (be it armor or a title) that they see other players with. Of course this takes time. GW is superior to other MMOs in that it is amazingly lenient in terms of letting people do the grinding in small increments. In WoW, to get the prestigious (not to mention statistically better) armor, you have to dedicate considerable time, often in long stretches. To get Norn Armor is much easier and much quicker. There is no reason to complain about how long it takes if you enjoy the gameplay of GW and want a reason to continue logging in. If you don't enjoy it, then uninstall it.

Lastly, I'll address your point about mandatory grinding and PvE-only skills. The sunspear grind in NF is not even an issue if you do ~half of the side quests instead of only primaries. So this is only a problem for people who want to skip most of the game's content and get to the end, where they can presumably complain about how the primeval armor requires a money grind. As for the PvE skills, they are only an advantage in PvE, and universally only come into play after you've beaten the game. You grind to get them, and they are a reward for people who "grind" (e.g. DoA/Deep/Urgoz/HM). Just like the treasure hunter title is a reward for people who open chests. If you don't want to do it, you don't need the reward.

So, in conclusion. You don't know how good you have it. If you think this is a grindfest WoW clone then you should play WoW for a year and then come back. The repetitiveness in WoW is not just for prestige, it is constant at every stage of the game and necessary to level up/complete quests/earn money. In GW all these things are all but handed to you, and any grinding is purely for pride. If you enjoy playing this game, you should expect to repeat parts of it. There are so many different things you can do if you're bored that it's often fun just because of the variety. If you think you shouldn't have to repeat parts of the game, then you're confusing this for Baldur's Gate.

edit: I have to say one more thing. And I played WoW for ~2 years in college if you haven't guessed. Someone mentioned earlier how ANet must have a good psychologist. That's exactly right, except it's obvious psychology to predict that people want to 1) stand out in a crowd and 2) have the most prestigious/unique whatever. Pride (aka vanity) is the mother of all sins. In WoW, everybody was always complaining because it was so freaking hard and time-intensive (to the point of impossibility) to get the best items. People have started complaining here too for the same reason I think. It used to be that FoW armor was the be-all and the end-all. Now there are 35+ titles, and so many elite armor sets it's impossible to get everything you want. Deal with it. Play to have fun and be happy about your accomplishments, whether it's Chaos Gloves or Companion of the Kurzicks. Complain about how the armors are just reskins, not about how it's too hard to get them all. You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you just might find, you get what you need.

Sooo ironic in many ways but I have to say it... the discussion is getting a bit too political so the posts were deleted. Please keep that toned down.

Roger that Inde.

I find it silly that Gaile said they were never going to fix the armors in Eye of the North. She basically said "We don't care about your complaints, we have your money, live with the armors or get off our servers." Mind you, I am turning her statement into how it comes across to those who paid the 40 USD for their "expansion." Quite honestly, I believe this cavalier attitude that Anet can do no wrong to be the WRONG one. They can do wrong, they obviously have done wrong (as is clearly shown by feedback on the fan forums), yet they refuse to recognize it. Really, it only makes them look worse by ignoring or not recognizing their mistakes.

As has been said a few times, Make all reputation titles etc account based.

Keep cartographer, protector and guardian character, with the rest going to account. Why should we be forced to only ID items and open chests on one character to get good salvage chances? I don't see why I should have to salvage items on one char if I don't want to risk breaking. Yes there are now perfect salvage kits, but it's a new fix to an old problem, and they're still limited use.

Making EotN titles account based saves on a lot of time. Ok, so some people can get them in a day, woop ti doo, more people can't. If they insists on keeping them character based, up the reputation rewards, so instead of 100-250 faction, 1k-2.5k or whatever. Makes all the titles a LOT more obtainable for the casual player. And for those who say "you don't NEED the titles", In some situations you NEED the skills, and as has been said in late game NF areas, you NEED to have a certain LB rank to get in some groups.

You do Realize that this is an MMO, right?

A game. A game with rewards. A gamer with good, better, and best rewards. Those levels depending how much work you put into it.

There's more to a game than just mastering it. There's time. Let me tell you something. I mastered this game perhaps five months into playing. It wasn't that hard, nor did it get any harder. What you're saying is, I am entitled to anything and everything this game has to offer just because I understand the simple concepts that come with mastering it, IE, countering monsters with your skill line, getting titles easier and faster, etc. So what do I do then?

People who master the game would have no reason to sustain playing, because now they could easily get any reward because they mastered simple concepts. So what would I have done after five months? Just quit?

There'd be no reason to keep playing, aside from hanging out with your friends. And that's not much to keep me in a game. I can do that in real life.


You know what? I'm glad there's a grind. I'm glad there's a grind for anything. The more you work at something, the more you deserve it, IMO. I'm glad that people have to grind endlessly to get FoW armor. If they didn't, what would be so special about it? When you see that, you know that that person has worked endlessly to get it, and you respect thier game knowledge and time spend for it. Without the grind, there would be nothing to any of it.

I'm glad that you have to grind titles in EoTN. If you didn't, what would be so special about the Unique Gloves, headgear, and armor sets? They'd be just as worthless as people getting the cash, transfering it to another character, and getting that character run to get that armor.

I'm glad there's a grind for everything really. Without grinding, you would run out of things to achieve very quickly. And you know what? If you don't think the grind is worth the reward for what you're doing, don't do it! No one's forcing you to go complete quests, or hand in bounties, or go get that dream item. You can do whatever the heck you please. And yet you're complaining.



In the Beta, there was little grind because Arenanet was not concerned about Player retention. Of course they want us to keep playing. That's why we have to spend time to accomplish things. And you know what? I'm glad they do, because I'll be glad to be rid of people who jump ship on a game and scream aramgeddon because they actually have to do WORK. Dear god help them.

In the Beta, there were social players and good communities because the people you talked to were not the public. They were a select few individuals, and Arenanet has no right to lock out anyone who does not use proper grammar, stop in outposts to have conversations, and wave a cheery hello to anyone they see. It just doesn't work that way. The public is not a pretty place, especially when released into a game. Guild Wars is not immune to the horrid community that will enter it from the public and it's availablity to that public. It never has been, and never will be, just as the same goes for any game that is available to anyone with a computer.




You know what? Scream the sky is falling because you have to do work to get things. Say the game is over because random people don't want to talk to you in outposts. Jump ship. Good for you. Go play another game that will within months be under the same fate as any other game.




I am so sick of whining over grinding I could puke. This post is representative to the people who do not want to do work, and think they should be rewared for the sole reason that they are "Good".

Go quit. Go play another game. Make room for the rest of us then. Be glad to get rid of you.




There's nothing more to say to this whine-fest.

Enjoy a discount wow.

Also they described this as a CORPG... did that change?

Btw, I don't really give a toss about grind, so no, I'm not one of those gimme my rewards waaa waaa waaa type person. Oh well, I cant be mad at anet because they made something the people wanted it to be.

WoW, Guild Wars, Runescape, etc, are all games with mainly the same purpose and ideas. They have small things that make them Unique to each other, which is what separates them, and makes people like/dislike them. If you refuse to draw this small line, and instead look at how they should be totally different, you're missing the fine detail that makes or breaks a gaming experience.


And I realize that they described it as such, but I believe that it is more of an MMO because of all the solo playing oppourtunities. And I like that. It's why I play Guild Wars versus other games. Got a problem with Solo playing styles? Don't do it.

Well, its hard not to see the connection between all 3.

I don't really understand what the second paragraph is saying though. I didn't attack anyones playstyle.

In what the OP is saying though, and to comment on it. I agree, I didn't think Guild Wars would have the whole chase the golden carrot concept... but most of it is optional... so I cant argue against it.

I'm having a hard time trying to get my thoughts out on the whole grind concept. If I piece my thoughts together I'll come back >.>

This is not really about what is wrong with GW:EN or even GW in general.

This is about being promissed one thing and feeling like we've been betrayed because what we got did not live up to the hipe.

I love GW, I've got all 3 chapters and the GW:EN expantion. I do not have any real problems with the content. What I have an issue with is that they said 40 NEW armor, not 40 ReSkined Armor. They said lots of NEW Dungeons, not the same dungeon rooms in 18 diffent combinations.

If they had given us the exact details on what GW:EN would be, no body would have any complaints. The fact is they didn't tell us the truth because that would have impacted poorly upon thier sales.

I really wasn't aiming the second paragraph at you, only at people who don't seem to get that concept. People knock anti social play a lot on these forums, don't take that as trying to insult you any way, I'm really not trying to insult anyone here, though I may be rigid and blunt in how I say things. I only try to get my point across in a way people will respond to.

And you're right, the chase the gold carrot concept is totally optional, so why keep complaining? There's little to no point.

Speaking of going, I have a gig I need to get to. Be back in an hour or two, but interesting insight to some of the replies. (Not to the OP.)

I can tell you one thing I have learned when expecting something. NEVER believe the hype. If you do, you will always be disappointed.

AMEN!

i hope anet reads this post.

[QUOTE]aside from a few epeenists who wanted *i pwned you* armor who says it needs fixing?

also known as putting words in someones mouth or lying through your teeth about what they really said

also we dont have sales figures on GWEN yet so how can people state that it is a sales failure ?

I couldn't agree more with every word you said.

Anyone for a no titles in GW2 petition? I think hope for GW2 is already gone.. we're required to grind in GW1 to get benefits in GW2.

BINGO! I am not angry about the grind, the titles, the veiled things they said about GW:EN and how it would radically be different.

The armors were labeled as NEW, like you said.

The Hall of Monuments didn't specify SPECIFIC CHARACTERS ACCOMPLISHMENTS, it specified a Players Accomplishments. Well, last time I checked, I was a Guild Wars player, and I have 5 PvE characters on my Primary account. Your dungeon comment is right on target as well.

These veiled lies and the added factor that the current Guild Wars doesn't live up to their initial hype about it being Grind isn't needed in any noticeable amount to acquire the tools you need to play the game. This is where ANET has failed us.

Well if we can't believe anything and they veil each comment behind a wall of haze and excellent use of words, how are we supposed to judge whether or not to buy their products. Their business model serves this purpose. Instead of being upfront about features, they veil them so that we buy the game. Arena Net has its money, and we have a game we didn't really want. So, they win, and we lose. We complain, they don't really care.

Wow, be glad you dont PvP.... if u did, you'd be used to this by now...

I am not sure if anyone has played the devil's advocate yet, but I will.

Yes it is true Anet promised that grind will not be needed to be successful in the game. Anet promised that skill > time and that is true in this game.

Tell me do you do you need the GW:EN armor? No you do not. Do you need to be high ranks in lightbringer to be successful? No you do not. Really people, is 8 damage reduction and a little bit more damage with skills worth all that much to you?

Lets say player 1 is an elementalist, player 1 has full basic 1k armor with a superior vigor, superior fire rune and 12 points in fire magic and in energy storage. Now player 2 is an elementalist, player 2 has full, lets just say, vanguard armor with a superior vigor, superior fire rune and 12 points in fire magic and in energy storage. They also have the exact same build. Now which player is better? I don't know but it is whichever player has more skill. Grinding for the vanguard armor doesn't give player 2 and advantage over anyone. Its skill that matters not time invested.

Titles and armor are all for vanity and is not required to be 1337. Wait I am wrong, the only titles that gives any real advantages are the wisdom, treasure hunter, and the lucky titles. Sure some grind is a good thing, without it everyone would breeze through the game and then they would be bored. If that happened then people would be complaining that there is nothing to do and they are bored. They will say that they want more content. Thats what titles are for, something for you to do when you are finished with the game.

What I see here is that everyone seems to think if they don't have vanity items then they aren't as good as someone with lets say full FoW.

The OP has stated that the majority of the player base is upset. This is completely wrong! I believe,not sure though, Jeff Strain has said that majority of the player base doesn't come to GwG or GWO to post on the forums, just a little bit does. Majority of the player base plays the game contently.

Well thats my 2cents for now. If I think of anything else I will come back and post more.