Enough is enough.

I still enjoy the game, and what ever little birdy told you I don't, I am going to shoot it out of the sky. I don't take gaming all too seriously, after all the word "game" is in it. Guild Wars was not founded on principles of grind, it has had them introduced extensively to better "fit in" with everyone else and as an attempt to keep the player base happy until the much heralded Guild Wars 2 comes about.

"Slander"?

Seriously man, it's a game. It's not fun for you anymore. You've informed the developers of WHY it's not fun and what you think could be done to change it. You've done your bit, and I find it hard to believe you've got nothing better to do with your time than talk about being "backstabbed" by a game and "slandered" by idle commentary on a gaming forum. I really find it hard to believe you've got nothing better to do than make jpg's that say "over and over" endlessly.

Find a new game to enjoy, and try not to take gaming in general so seriously. It's supposed to be something you do to relax and escape, don't let it get your blood pressure up. Oh, and down the road, if you feel like it, come back and give GW another shot. You may like it, you may not, but I find at times when I stop enjoying the game and start ranting on the forums that I'm always better off dropping it for a few months and doing something else to chill.

Ha! You think that I think that Anet can do no wrong? Well you are very wrong my good sir. When Anet nerfed rits and added exhaustion to spirits and skills I was furious, when Anet nerfed paragons I was furious. I know Anet can and has made wrong decisions. What game developer can make a perfect game? None can, but Anet has gotten pretty darn close. But I am getting off topic.

What do you mean by the Majority? Majority of the GwG community? Or do you mean Majority of the player base? If you mean the player base then you are sadly mistaken.

Eh, only one of my 3 accounts is banned, and it is only 72 hours for "veiled anti semitic statements" Yes...... obviously Banocaust is anti semitic and only Jewish people should be banned because of the /report function... yep...... lol... (if you didn't notice the flow of raging sarcasm there, I am sorry)

Anywho... again, it isn't so much the current game that I am angry at. I am more angry that Arena Net marketed Eye of the North as a continuation of the Guild Wars franchise when the basis of 25%+ of the content is bound to the idea of grind, killing monsters in mass quantities, clearing a zone again and again to gain points toward a specific title, whatever you want to call it. Granted, the other chapters had their hints of grind for certain, but that grind was here and there, not in every single location known to man. They didn't advertise nor warn veteran players of the series that the gameplay would be taking a radical twist towards being more focused on grinding for reputation. They made it seem as though the rewards for grinding were going to be merely vanity, perhaps the stand alone armor pieces and SPECIAL UNIQUE items, not every last armor set in the game and 33% of the new 150 skills. There seems to be this new trend with Arena Net and the word "veiled". Hmm....

No, I mean the majority of the player base. ANd no, I am not mistaken. You can go into the game at any given moment, ask the question in public chat "Are you happy about the grinding you have to do on each character that you have to get rewards in GW:EN?" 60% or more of the people that respond say no, they dislike it. You can also ask any given district in GW:EN at any given time if they are happy about mini pets being customized to a character in the HoM. How many of them say "Yes, I certainly am" Probably somewhere between 5%-0%. Ask them if they like grinding endlessly to increase their title tracks, 60%+ will say NO. I know the community fairly well, and I don't just mean the GwG/GWO community.

On that note, no one knows what the majority of the player base thinks so trying to confirm or deny something is a bit over-the-top don't ya think? I could counter and try and say that random sampling of players, even only 1% of players, can accurately tell the story of the overall opinion of the GW community.

I digress, I'm only in this thread to try and figure out why some posts are posting out of order as vinraith's and rahja just did.

Yes, I was wondering about that myself. I did edit my post after making it (I'm terrible about that, always coming up with something else to say). I don't know if that has an impact. I do note that rahja's quote includes my edits, which would normally imply he'd made it after I hit save.

Oh, and I tend to agree that you can't gauge the community opinion the way rahja seems to think you can. The simple fact is that anyone that answers questions in chat (or even has chat on) or turns up on a forum is self-selecting for people that are upset with some aspect of the game. The proportion of people complaining about the game to people happily playing the game is, I suspect, quite low.

Same here. If I had known back in Prophecies the amount of titles grind there would be after the second campaign I would've just made 1 PvE char and the rest PvP. And after a while all the quests just feel like repetitive FedEx runs with no real feeling of accomplishment or reward, so I just do the main missions to trudge along to the end.

Well I went into the Eye of the North outpost to find out what people thought of the GW:EN faction related titles and this is a screen of the only answers I got.



I suppose this isn't the best way to find out and I guess that majority of everyone there had their local off because of the guild recruitment spamming.

But according to you Rahja both of the responses I got should have been I hate them.

A very well written and thought out thread, I strongly agree.

"Guild Wars : Eye of the North : For the anti-social gamer with too much time on their hands"

...kinda says it all I think.

The 'carrot-on-a-stick' grind in WoW seems so successful, why not try it here?

It's too bad though. I'd be playing WoW if I wanted that crap. Let's hope that we can help influence Anet to take the high road and avoid the mindless grind game component.

BTW, nice guild, Rahja

I gotta agree with you 100%. I have lost interest in guild wars completely after Eotn came out, because of the grind needed. I enjoyed the first guild wars the most because it had that original vision of skill over time, and that is what i believe made it unique. Eotn is just a step closer to WoW with the high amount of grinding needed. From what i read on gw2 on it's increased level cap or no level cap, its taking the final step to match WoW...They have lost one customer, thats for sure.

I like how a lot of people mess this up. The whole high level cap or no level cap thing is just a mechanic that Anet is putting in the game to show how experienced you are. Take for example a new character that just reached level 20 and another level 20 character that has 5mill exp. How can you tell the difference? This limitless level cap is just for show, the way I understand it (I am pretty sure I am right) when you reach level 20 in guild wars 2 you will stop getting health and attrib points but you will still grow levels. So a level 99 character will be no stronger than a level 20 character.

You have no idea what you're talking about. This sentence is completely devoid of any kind of common sense or basic form of logic. How has it devolved? Guild Wars was always about PvP, grind, PvE-skills that are completely seperate from PvP don't ruin that.

Have a nice day!

completely and totally wrong according to Mike O`BRION and Jeff Strain.

you will keep on gaining with each level or what point is there

as for nor being stronger they (Strain/O`Brion) stated there would be a very strong *SIDEKICKING SYSTEM* which would allow a much weaker lower level player to join a much stronger higher level group who would sidekick them for the duration of the mission/quest/exploration/etc so they could survive instead of insta snuff.

they stated this was similar to COH sidekicking system and needed to allow community interaction regardless of player level.

so levels will count and a level 20 will not even be close to a level 40 let alone a level 70/100.

as long as they have things to do all along the way i dont care if it takes 6 months or 2 years to reach level 100 or higher.

it is the fun along the way that counts for me

Neither does the fact that a character whos already saved the world can travel back to a region and do it all over again... Exactly the same as it was.

Really there is no perfectly coherent story in this game. Acc. Based stuff wouldnt be bad.

Rahja, great post and I agree with you.

I felt really lucky I was able to experience the vision the game started with, being a beta player and the community that existed at the time was totally different as you know. Sadly, when game companies will bend their will to bow to the greater demand (which I would only deem unavoidable for public companies) we are all deprived of something amazing. I guess the demand was too great to ignore and ANET didn't have enough staff to make another game to fill that niche so they did what they did.

I won't go into too much detail. I feel it is really sad that people have taken a great tool of communication that is the internet, that allows them to meet anyone from anywhere, and have used it to isolate themselves in cyberspace. What next? GW no longer needs an internet connection because it turned into a offline rpg?

I made some amazing friends in GW, mainly during beta. Friendships that lasted years and enriched me as a person. People that have brought me many benefits IRL, socially and in other ways. I know it is a PITA pugging with griefers and you could grind faster with h/h. WTF though, it is a GAME not work, it's supposed to be a fun time with people. Make an effort and learn how to make friends people.

I always make an effort to get a pug now, at least on missions. I try to help other players with their skill bar and give them tips.

I find that when I'm pugging, even the missions that I've done over and over again are really fun. Most people are willing to listen and change their builds so don't kick them if you see them with a noob build.

I'd take a real player over a hench any day.

If everyone made an effort to pug and help other players, GW could be so much better and even grind wouldn't be that bad.

I think it comes down the evolving design of character development. If Arenanet simply put less stock into character titles and more stock into immersion, Eye of the North would have been much more well received. I am not really angry with Arena Net the more I think about it. The better word to use would be disappointed. I understand why they made the changes, I understand why they added the grinding elements, but that doesn't make it right. The mini black moa quest is a great example, because it immersed the player into the world, and required knowledge of the chapters, the lore to some degree, and the terrain. It made the player really feel like they were on an adventure as opposed to just train killing one monster after another.

i think it's hilarious that people complained when titles first came out..."titles are so lame they don't even do anything!"
and now that they DO do something it's, "titles are so lame, i have to go earn them if i want optional stuff!"

I sometimes wonder if it just boils down to a matter of perspective.

I think it was Karyuu who said if you want grind, try Silkroad. (If I've put the wrong name on who stated such, I apologize).

I used to play another F2P MMO known as Flyff. I'm sure some of you, or many of you, know it and have played it. To me, that game is the absolute defination of "Grind", for there is nothing else for you to do in that game except Grind to level. You log in, you find a partner, you kill things. That's it. Grind your level up so you can get one new skill, maybe wear a new piece of armor. Then it's back to grinding, again. There is no gameplay content. There are only a handful of quests and they're anything but rewarding. There's no such thing as missions, end game content, story, worthwhile pvp, places to explore, events and/or events worth participating in. And if you think the GW community is awful, spend a month in Flyff. From my seat, the GW community is outstanding, helpful, and fun to be a part of. Not without it's bad apples, but wonderful nonetheless.

When I compare that of Flyff (and similar games as well) to what I've found in Guild Wars, Guild Wars is a polar opposite of what I view as a grind fest. Here, in Guild Wars, I've found things to do because there are things to do and not because I HAVE too, but because I choose too and it provides a challenge to do so.

I have missions to gain masters on - Still. I don't feel that's a grind. It kind of reminds me of the old days, like Super Mario Bros. on the NES, or Zelda. Stuck on one part of a level and it takes you 'x' amount of times before you figure out just the right way to do it.

I have yet to step foot into the FoW, or UW; I've been playing since December 2006. Yes, some peoples jaws have droppped, I'm sorry. I'm just waiting to do it with my Guild.

I've only recently unlocked Team Arenas. Again, sorry for your dropped jaw. It's mostly because I only pvp once a week, but I have a goal to make it to HA. It sounds like a blast.

I have Masters Difficulty Quests to finish.

I still have those pesky Titan Quests to take down.

I have two more parts of Sorrows Furnace to complete.

I have elites to hunt down.

I'd like to start doing GvG.

I've begun working on new classes that I've never played (Assasin, Rit, & Mesmer) so I can learn new methods of playing and gain more knowledge of abilities.

I still have Hard Mode to conquer. (Only working on that in Proph because I won't start HM in Cantha, or NF until I've earned my Protector).

There are still areas I've yet to fully explore and take in. It was only a month ago, or so, I discovered the portal between the Crystal Overlook and the Crystal Desert, a travel beteeen Elona and Tyria.

I don't have EoTN yet. Still more there.

....And there is more I could list, but I'll leave it for now.



Now I won't say that I don't have my fair share of discontent with certain decisions, choices, and mechanics Anet has taken since I've been playing. I do in fact have "issues" with some things. However, I still feel perspective is part of the larger issue. That perspective being what one defines as Grind and what one doesn't.

Because I'm not limited to one goal, that being just levelling, I find nothing in Guild Wars that falls into my catagory of "grinding". I have numerous personal goals that I'm choosing to achieve on my own time.


When I recieved Prophicies in Dec. 2006, it took me until early July, 2007 to complete it. Some of my friends did it in two weeks and got bored. Is that Anets fault, or someone elses? It was my choice to work through the game at my pace. Enjoying my surroundings, exploring every nook and cranny, reading all the quest dialogue, putting myself into the story, making sure I got "Masters" in all missions before proceeding to the next one. As a result, I have truly enjoyed every second of my time in GW and continue to do so. Sure, I was frustrated at times, but to succeed after so many failures, the enjoyment of completion is more enjoyable.

Surely I can understand that for those long time Vets of the game, who have been here since Day 1, probably have completed every aspect of this game. I, for one, can agree that over time a game can run its course on enjoyment. If I had all Guardian Titles, Cartographer, Maxed SS and LB out of my ying-yang, could run UW with my eyes closed, master every build, and so forth; yeah, I'd be bored out of my skull. However, I find it difficult to place blame soley on Anet. Any game, eventually, runs its course on players and there is a ton of truth in the saying that you cannot please everyone. Which leads me to this next part....

Maybe I'm not one to nitpick at wording on boxes for descriptions, but there's only so much one game can provide before the development of it equally runs its course, just as a players interest can run its course. Unlike many other MMO's who simply don't add new content ever, or when/if they do it's very little, GW still tries. That is something that can't be said for a lot of places. There's only so much a game can do to keep the game alive, for lack of better wording, without venturing across that fine line of making it a whole new game. From my seat GW1 has done it's best at providing new material without totally destorying the original concept. Of course, that's only my view.

And to that note, perhaps that's why we draw closer to GW2. For that the development on GW1 has long ago reached its pinacle for what it was intended. That it can no longer sustain its original values while keeping the community content with what's here. Now comes the time that the focus on development is directed towards the new version that all of us will start from scratch. So then will the cycle start over, where GW2 will breed to a new rise, growth, a pinacle, and in its following years after its release, begin to stale, but as far as GW2 is concerned, I'll save any opinions on what it is, or will be, when I've played it.

I also feel that perhaps some of the issues facing some players is the easy access to information on how to literally run through the game with little to no work. For instance, the wiki.

I have never used the wiki to guide me through any mission. Only until I complete the mission do I look it up to see what I did right, what I did wrong, and what I can do better next time; After I've done it on my own. I do the same with console games too. Take Final Fantasy games as example. Most of my Buds all bought the game guides and walk throughs. I didn't. They all finished it within weeks. Me? About 6 months. They were bored, I wasn't. But back on point, my primary use for the wiki is only for referencing material such as having on hand the correct amount of materials required for a certain set of armor, or looking up a term I don't understand. I honestly had to look up "FFF" before.


Anyways, with the amount of Runs people take by paying, the seemingly increased amount of begging in starter areas (ascalon, Kama, Shing), or simply having a complete walkthrough guide to the game so easily accessible, I often wonder if it really is such a surprise that some players quickly become bored with a game that has so much content in it. As though the idea of putting in a tiny bit of effort to achieve what you seek is a far fetched idea. Again, though, that is only my viewpoint and does not speak for anyone else but myself.

Anyways, I am sorry for writing a novel. I just wanted to add a perspective from a player who hasn't played from the start, but is still nonetheless, part of the Guild Wars community.