16 October update

Deadly Paradox was broken. You could argue that it still is. It doesn't matter if it's pve or pvp.

As a rule of thumb, something that's overpowered in PvP is overpowered in PvE too. The big difference is that PvErs only get the benefit of the skills, and never have to deal with the cost.

I got a phone call from the mobs you were farming. They don't like how you use Deadly Paradox either.

Well, tell them to register on Guru and tell AN what do they think ~~
But, yar, DP is broken.

"If mobs could talk..."

That sounds like an awesome thread, hah.

Ok, so maybe Aggresive Refrain was overpowered and needed tweaked, but "Cracked Armor"???? Seriously though, who the heck decided cracked armor should be a condition? So let's take a look at all the conditions:

Bleeding
Blind
Burning
Crippled
Dazed
Deep Wound
Disease
Poison
Weakness
Cracked Armor??? (Huh!)

I understand all the "original" conditions apply to the body so how the heck does Cracked Armor fit in? How am I suffering from a crack in my armor and further more how the heck does a monk "fix" this? Should we have a spell like "Summon Armorer" to come and repair the armor? Come on. It would have been more believable if they introduced a "Stubbed Toe" or "Sinus Infection" condition, but "Cracked Armor"???? I have not seen the likes of this kind of stupidity since....

You do know the AR nerf was in the last update, not this one?

Umm.. I agree with the other people saying a.net's code could EASILY handle it. It would just be like added 1300 new skills to the game if you split the skills along PvP/PvE lines (just make every skill have 2 different copies/function). After all, the original code only had like 300 skills and has expanded to what we have today (not even counting all the PvE only stuff like Judun's, polymark, or snowball fights).

The code has NO limitations in terms of number of skills. As a guy with basic programing knowledge, that would not be a limitation. Limitation on game engines involve particle affects and calcuating pyshics.... not on being able to handle a few modifactions to what is basically just an interface thing.

Looking at the figures, ANet chose the new 33% to almost precisely match the time needed to recast Shadow Form with shadow arts at highest level. It is now possible to maintain SF only with precise timing.

That leads me to believe that allowing this combination but keeping it challenging by demanding the player keep very careful watch on timing is exactly what they were aiming for.

I suspect, therefore, that this skill is now working precisely the way they intended.

You know, even if splitting skills into PvE and PvP was a good idea (it isn't) why would you think it's easier to balance 2600 skills than 1300 skills?

QFT

This is the reason why the IAS is needed with little to no drawbacks and why its tied to Leadership. The Paragon the one (ONLY) class in the game that does not have any form of multiple attack skill and why it needed a good IAS in its initial design to compete vs. other PvX class options. ANet needs to go back to why it chose the skills it chose for the Paragon.

Yes, its strong in PvP. It was designed that way because of the role it was created for. Yes the skills on the command and motivation line are expensive for a 2 Pip party support character, but that was why GFTE was made at 4 adrenalin and no cool down time. Thats why AR was tied to leadership energy management. There was a reason why they (ANET) created the class as they did. PvP changed when Paragons were introduced but did not shift because of a lack of both

a) understanding the nature of shouts
b) and how to counter them (plus a lack of solid multi class counter options etc).

Good Grief you could have added Warrior hammer skill called "Deafening Blow" for crying out loud. That ended all shouts within earshot would that be so hard? At least 2 skills per profession to end shouts in some way or another but no you chose to kill the class instead, as usual.

ANet should not forget those reasons it created the class and why it chose the skills it chose for it and re look at the roots of where the concept came from.

As it stands the Paragon is worthless now in PvE, with few skills still effective in a desired PvE enviroment, and don't tell me TNTF is da BOMB. I've yet to ever see a group saying "GLF TNTF Para SS 10 Req". If everyone knew that TNTF was da bomb then I would see that skill requested, and currently to date I've never seen it requested or desired. ANets nerf to that skill only harmed the casual non guild Para PvE player.

SO Here is my suggestion to ANet..... "end our pain now" kill the paragon class delete them all from the servers, you can't kill it any more than you already have. Most serious Para PvE players I know won't touch there Para's now since the AR and GFTE NERF and PvP players just hates this awesome and original class concept to the point of a pathological obsession. The Para has little to offer to the common PvE enviroment now with no Multi attack and many skills most would assume avoid because of better options left to other classes in PvE.

Was the Para flawed? NO the Para was perfect in its initial design, too perfect for its role, it was the lack of other classes missing the counters to shouts in general that was flawed. You never came up with good attractive alternatives that enticed enough players to use the ones you created effectively. Thus this fine class suffered from Para envy. As for the class itself, It was fun when it lasted, but now its time to put the bullet where it belongs. I've resolved my issues, I'm ready to move on and play PvE as it was intended to be played with, Necro, Ele, Monk, and Warrior only. That is what you seem to encourage (Ritual Lord and Communing Nerfs anyone?). ORIGINAL IDEAS AND PLAY FOR THE LOSS due to PvP "balance", for the sake of salvaging the dying PvP community.

I've learned my lesson, you taught it me well ANET. I'll take those lessons to other MMO"s as I browse the MMO market for future games.

Good Game.

BROVO

/clap

BTW I'm glad I you won't be making any more GW1 games. Your skills and class people can't seem to balance your existing game without killing the good intent of good class concepts by making appropriate counters, (Paragons and Ritualists) so good luck on your future endeavors. Those classes rocked when they first came out and they were "fun" to play.

So all these people claiming to be able to do perma-shadow still, mind telling us how? I'd like to know.

I lol'd

Newsflash - PuGs are retarded. Paras still rock PvE, quite happily throwing out "Save Yourselves!" and TNTF! to make a team invincible. You must be a really bad PvEer if you can't see that the Para is still one of the strongest PvE professions.

Because, you know... Warrior-equivalent armour, Warrior-strength ranged DPS, infinite energy, a permanent, drawback-free IAS, and heaps and heaps of stupidly overpowered, unstrippable passive defense all on one character isn't a really bad idea?

Have a cookie.

Danke. I needed a laugh.
Yeah, admittedly... the game'd be better off without Paras... HM might even be a wee bit challenging (well... bleh )

Gee, when you say it like that...

You'd think that those guys over there at Anet would have discussed this kinda thing, ya know, before releasing Nightfall.

Of course, I could probably lump features of another class in the same manner, and make it seem like it's uber, as well. Would you suggest removing all of the things you mentioned from the Paragon? If so, what would that class be left with? What would make it stand out from other classes? Think about it.

That's not true, multiple attack skills (such as barrage, hundred blades, triple chop) are hardly used in PvP, and PvP is why they are currently balancing paragons. Saying paragons should have free IAS because they can't hit multiple targets isn't really logical imho. Whirling charge is a dervish skill, it's an IAS that ends when there's no enchantments on the dervish. From all the IAS conditions that one is the most lenient while dervishes are notorious for hitting multiple targets.

You actually don't need a para for this. A Dslasher will do perfectly SY! and any caster will be able to afford TNTF. You're defining the power of the PVE para upon two overpowered PVE skills that actually don't need to be run on a para specially. Para is the best PVE class for only one purpose: Mallyx.
That's a shame you define para's power upon 1 para skill: AR.



The true issue is infinite energy. Nerf Leadership so it doesn't give energy, roll back para's skills to their primary stats. Then energy will be a primary concern on paras, and skills like AR will have a very big drawback in their initial cost.

I wouldn't cry if they did, truth be told.

But for 4 seconds on a 20 sec recharge? Methinks not, especially at 15 energy a pop.

Just like before... You just need better timing. Well, a lot better but it's still possible.
Ask people who did Tombs with solo A echoeing SF.

Well.... I figured out how Shadow Form can be constantly maintained despite the margin for error before being sharp:

It wasn't reliant before on the recharge of Shadow Form so much as the recharge of Arcane Echo. The former now pretty much matches the latter where before SF recharged faster.
The real awkward point now is that the trigger point isn't when Shadow Form's recharger is in the bottom left corner (which was very convenient before): Arcane Echo now reverts when Shadow Form's recharger is precisely halfway down, so SF needs to be triggered moments after it passes the little number-block that marks the skill's position on the bar, and just before it hits half-way.


Ok.... so sometimes my instinct kicks in too fast, I jump to incorrect conclusions and make a prat of myself... Big deal. Leave crying about that to the people to whom dignity still matters (I haven't had any for years).
That nobody else effectively explained but I had to figure it out myself isn't exactly useful.... but what is done is done. I'm back chest-running and vermin-farming now...


It still doesn't explain why there is a graphical glitch on Shadow Form's recharge.




And Chilblains still needs to be fixed back. It was a permanent fixture on my Necro's skillbar before as a readily useful enchant-destroyer... but it has been removed now, due to having become effectively useless for the only thing it was good for (removal of Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Spellbreaker, Vow of Silence, etc). Yes, I would sacrifice being able to run through mobs of Outcasts in the Jade Sea and Grawl in Lornar's Pass just to get Chilblains back the way it was (when it was useful).

You would think so and yet there were MAJOR issues with NF being released. D/Mo's anyone? Then we got Thumpway, SF Spike, Jagged Bones, discord spike, MoR mesmer diversion, Derv trains, Greneth Derv's.

I agree entirely with what's bolded. I also agree with what GloryFox said here:

Now, glountz, to the rest of your post - I don't necessarily agree with removing energy gain from leadership. Honestly, the nerf to WY! and GftE! was a great way to go in this regard. Those skill changes I entirely agree with; the Paragon was simply too much of an infinite energy machine with those skills.

GloryFox brings up a great point on adding effects that actually remove shouts and chants. Although, I disagree with additional skills to do this. I'd say go the route of the Mesmer interrupts that now interrupt chants - change some skills, such as the enchant removal ones, to also be able to remove chants/shouts. Other skills could be made to have that effect, as well. In fact, while we're at it, allow some skills to remove weapon spells, too.

This way, skills that people bring anyway (without needing to bring anything special) will be able to combat Paragons directly. The Paragons can return to their original glory, since now they are easily thwarted, and battles become more exciting, since you can't jut throw up a chant/shout and sit on it.


EDIT: Forgot to add the most important part - we must also have the ability to see who is affected by shouts/chants, stance, and weapon spells (other than the weapon graphic). They don't necessarily have to appear on the health bar, per se, but perhaps an icon just below it.

EDIT2: One more thing, current skills that affect shouts/chants, such as Vocal Minority, could have an added effect like:

Vocal Minority: Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot use Shouts or Chants, and gain only half adrenaline.

Can't we just leave paragons alone?

They've had nothing but nerfs since they first came about.

Y'know, there might be a reason behind nerfing paragons. It's not like they're nerfing them randomly or because it's fun.

And they'll continue to see nerfs until they are balanced.

Wouldn't do much against a single paragon or multiple paragons.

Use important shout/chant -> use GftE! to cover it on everyone.

Oh? So your saying that a Smite Hex skill such as "Scourge Shouts" would not insta kill a Paragon? How about "Throat Barbs" that deals damage to target foe or nearby foes each time a shout ends on you. How about a passive Nature Ritual called "Whispering Winds" that reduces the range of all shouts to personal while in range? Any of the above mentioned counters would do much vs 1 or many if they had the right idea's to begin with.

Anet had other options when GWEN came out Racthoh other than the route they chose to take with Para's.

Nothing should be so powerful that you have to rely on extremely narrow skills to counter it. This is not good for the game.

Hex Removal, Enchant Removal, Stance Removal seems to me those counters are rather narrow in scope, why not Shout Removal's or Shout Inhibitors. Heck we even have Counters and Inhibitors to Adrenalin. All of these current in game counters seem rather narrow in their scope and as much as I agree with your priori on principle they already exist in the game for powerful skills.

As someone mentioned in this thread, Cracked Armor is a nonsensical condition.

Instead, they should have added Deafness. You cannot be the target of Chants, Shouts and Echos.

This would probably cause problems (or used defensively) with the few offensive Shouts out there (such as "Fear Me!"), but it would be an excellent method of countering Shouts other than just Vocal Minority and Well of Silence.


QFT x infinity


To reiterate what someone else suggested:

For every rank in Leadership your Shouts and Chants last 2% longer and you gain 4% more adrenaline.


This way they will become Adrenaline machines instead of Energy machines, which balances out nicely with the fact that they can't hit multiple targets with Spears and that many of their Adrenaline skills have recharge times.

Rebalance a few Energy-based Shouts and Chants to either become cheaper or be based of Adrenaline, and there you go.

No more keeping up Refrains forever before and in between battles.

No more spamming cheap Shouts and Chants to gain huge amounts of Energy.



And you could have Sword/Axe/Hammer-wielding P/W with high Leadership who basically forsake the armor penetration of Strength and high Weapon Mastery to gain the innate Adrenaline gain of Leadership.

Can you say synergy?



But I'm sure both the people here and ArenaNet will call me crazy and settle for something oh so elegant and well-though of as: You can only gain Energy three times every 15 seconds. Except on Tuesdays. And on Winter solstice.

I loled. But seriously, paragon is at the point where obviously nobody knows how to fix it, so I'd say scrap it and start over if there weren't thousands of them in existance already. I think we're stuck with them for now.

Im still having fun with my Paragon because the skills are fun even after the nerfs to AR and GFTE.

Sure I was upset about the changes and how weird they are, but you can't give up on a class just because a few skills change. Regardless of comparison with other classes its all about fun and true balance really won't be achieved in PvP (people will always move on to the strongest skills and the most gimmick builds)
So whatever your favorite class is keep playing it and don't give up on it!

>.> They should just edit Deadly arts skills slowly instead make it a better support line.

I wasn't doing the whole Perma shadow thing anyways, lag kills timing >.>
Umm Instead I think that...Dancing dagger becomes an offhand to stop entangling asp from triggering *runs*

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. There are currently counters, but no one takes them for obvious reasons. You bring enchantment removal because you know you're going to face enchantments, you bring hex removal even though you may not always fight a hex team they might still have a water ele or dom mesmer. You bring stance removal... well, no, you don't bring stance removal. You bring Wild Blow because criticals on a scythe is lethal, or Wild Throw because it can't be blocked, you bring Wild Strike on your assassin as part of an unblockable chain, in addition to it removing stance. Adding more strictly anti-shout skills, with no secondary effect, isn't going to make anyone consider taking them. The only skill currently like this is Well of Silence, offering degen + shout hate. But it's a well.

The game shouldn't be 'y profession owns you if you don't bring x'.

Paragons and mesmers share the same problem, more them than any other class but all do suffer from it to some extent.

If you make them perfectly balanced in PvP you render them absolutely useless in PvE, conversly if you make them usefull in PvE they are over powered in PvP.


Catch 22....

I see a future where they end up buffing both then locking out several skills from PvP use....

or they simply give up and let them die a slow and quite lonely death.

I'm curious as to why you are whining about Anet not implementing skills that would decrease the Paragons efficiency when you have very cleary stated that you think the Paragon class is useless now and is not worth playing due to the nerfs they've been dealt.

Why complain about the lack of anti-shout and anti-chant skills when you feel that they class is already rendered useless?

To enforce my own statement refer to this post. Maybe it will jog your memory.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...77&postcount=8

P.S. It's quite rare to see someone get irritated at Anet for there not being enough counters to their class.

Yeah, I can't say I disagree with that.



Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but they just shouldn't have added new professions in the first place.

This is extremely thin ice that has been walked over a thousand times before, but the new professions could have been specialists of existing professions instead. I'm most definitely not the only one who thinks this.

The Assassin could have easily been a specialist Mesmer, the Ritualist a specialist Necromancer, the Paragon a specialist Warrior and the Dervish a specialist Monk. And all campaigns could have been level 20 expansions, akin to GWEN.

Would have saved them a lot of time making noob islands and balancing skills of an extra 4 professions with their own primary attributes. It's already hard enough to have the core primary attributes balanced out properly (see Soul Reaping).



Anyway, what's done is done.

I don't think the Paragon is truly broken beyond repair. What it needs is a major overhaul and a fresh vision, something I fear ArenaNet is slowly losing touch with.

I can't really blame them. I'm sure it's hard having to reinvent the game every six months. It's a path I would have avoided, if I had been in charge (which I'm obviously not). But I do admire that they did not take the easy way out and did attempt to radically change the game with every new campaign.

Unfortunately, this choice turned out to be a bit of a mistake. If not commercially, then at least in terms of gameplay and game balance.



I still strongly believe that some lessons will be learned in time for the sequel's release and that Guild Wars 2 will really be the Guild Wars we've all been wanting (to go back to).

Instead of bitching about how your build got screwed up by an update why dont you try and make a new one?

PARAGONS ARE NOT BROKEN!

Actually, that's a very constructive post, no matter how hard you tried to make it look like a flame.



Paragons are not broken, they're just not up to the quality of nearly all other professions, with the best professions being the Core ones (except for the Necromancer's Soul Reaping) followed by the non-Cores ones.

The fact that nearly all Paragons were using Aggressive Refrain (and those two Shouts) before the nerf means that this one build was really that which kept the Paragon of some quality compared to the other professions.

You could say it's a lack of originality from the playerbase, true, but there's also some fault on the developer's part.



We're not asking to unnerf those two or three skills. We're asking for the entire profession to be rebalanced, so that we can have more options than using those skills.



Silly metaphor, but here goes.

Compare the Paragon to a basket of apples (I told you it was going to be silly). All the apples in it are rotten; except for two that look REALLY good.

Of course everyone is going to want those two REALLY good apples. Heck, they will even make you buy the whole basket; even if the rest is rotten.

Now what ArenaNet did, was to make those two REALLY good apples rotten too. Now all the apples are the same: rotten. Sure, there is balance: bad balance.

What we're asking is to make those two REALLY good apples just fine and to have all the rotten apples made just fine as well. This creates balance too: good balance.



It's not rocket science, is it?

uhh well ive been ubder-cool and going in hard mode with henchies and heros and have been use AR. The henchy monks seem to be handling the cracked armor just fine, they arent bitching and moaning about it. I mean honestly, all the armor paragons give it doesn't hurt much at all.

I know, Aggressive Refrain still works.

Which is the whole point. It was a sloppy and ineffective nerf.

• Leadership: completely overpowered Energy-wise and needs a nerf (see many suggestions)

• Aggressive Refrain: hack job nerf, needs an elegant nerf (see many suggestions)

• Almost all other Paragon skills: need a buff

In two words: complete rebalance.