Canthan Grandmaster Cartographer in a day - What's A-Net going to do about it?

**EDIT 2nd November**

THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER. READ http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...213510&page=16

** Original post **

OK, before I start, no need for anyone to give me abuse. Yes, this is QQ, it's a whine, it's whatever you say it is. So save your breath.

I've just about finished my Legendary Cartographer title. I did Tyria a year ago (it took me 5-6 weeks) and I did Cantha earlier this year (4 weeks).

REAL Cartographers amongst us will know what this entails ... day after day going through each mission and explorable area, slowing scraping every inch of every wall. Waiting for the boardwalk to open to get 0.5%. Researching glitches like Eredon Terrace. Partying with someone that has 'Mayhem in the Market' to get into Vizunah Local. Organising 16 people to get into Jade Quarry together. Reading Livingston's cartography guide and picking off the points one by one, in some zones. I did all those things and only just scraped my way to Canthan GMC. I considered it one of the most difficult challenges in GW.... there really wasn't much leeway.

So, a couple of guys I know wanted to get their Phoenix for being People Know Me (2). They went and downloaded a mod for their game that recolours the map and shows visually all the missing 0.1% spots.

Yesterday these two guys popped up on my window and started bragging that they had done Canthan GMC in a day.

So, maybe some readers will understand if I find this a little sickening. What was even more annoying.... this mod was so good that one of them hadn't even been into JQ and neither of them even knew about the Eredon Terrace glitch. So no actual skill involved.

Spend 45 minutes killing every monster in a zone, and tracing the walls to get 0.1%? Or spend 2 minutes with a running build going from the nearest portal directly to the spot that will give you 0.1%?

What really irritates me is that when I challenged them about getting a title on the cheap, they actually defended themselves with lines like "we're doing all the same work as you...you still have to go to all the places". Right... so that's why it took me 4 weeks and you guys 1 day. It's like buying a University degree on the internet instead of attending the classes and sitting the exam. Don't tell me it's the same work, it's just..... not.

So, GW is full of titles that are allegedly being cheapened, and when I see the debate about making Treasure Hunter account-wide and people getting enraged about the suggestion, I kind of get where they are coming from. I have enough going on in my life that such things don't make me genuinely angry, or sad, but just a little peeved. I did the Cartographer titles because I enjoyed being an explorer, capping skills on the way, opening chests and trying new builds and hero builds. So this was fun. Getting the title at the end was only a part of this. I don't think anyone would do the title the 'old way' just to get a title. Surely not.... there were much easier ones (Sunspear farming for example). No, for me, it was an extra reward and just a little bit of structure to the game, something to do after the campaigns were completed and Protector titles obtained.

But now, you sit in Balthazar's Temple for a few minutes and look which titles people are maxing, it's Sunspear, Lightbringer and Legendary Cartographer. I got really surprised by the number of Legendary Cartographers appearing. Were there REALLY that many people prepared to spend months scraping walls and researching glitches?

Now it all makes sense. So people want PKM or IVI. So they google cartography aids. So they download a mod which changes their game map. 3 days of work.... Hey Presto! Legendary Cartographer! 4 titles. Quicker at this rate than Lightbringer farming.

So, I would like to conclude by saying to people: really don't bother with Cartography titles if you're looking for a badge of honour, any more. They used to mean you'd invested some effort but, right now, I honestly suspect that there are more people out there who got them by modding their game than getting them properly. It's impossible to distinguish who made this achievement in the way that A-Net intended it. Don't get me wrong, my Cartographer titles still mean something TO ME and nothing will take that away.... but I have 3 questions:

1) Is this cheating?
2) Is it a breach of the EULA?
3) Is there any way for A-Net to roll back these titles, and should they? Surely it's possible for them to know which clients have been tampered with... Just a thought. :-)

Anyway, this thread is not intended to get anyone into trouble. I am not naming names and in any case I think it's widespread.

But having someone pop up and gloat because they got your high-end title in a small fraction of the time you did kind of makes you want to be angry at someone. If not them, maybe the game designers? How many more titles will the goalposts move on? What next, a Signet that captures all elites in a zone when you step out of the portal and activate it? A nuclear bomb for Vanquishing? Shiro and Varesh take bribes to let you kill them?

Come on A-Net..... this is poor. Very poor.

1) IMO it isnt cheating. Its a nice aid to find out where spots are missing. I used mods for getting my legendary cartographer and i only used the mods to about 98%. i then went onto comparing maps. So if u think mods are cheating then u must think comparing maps is cheating too?

2) Officially its against the EULA to use mods but Anet allows them as long as the community benefits from them.

3)No they should not and no i dont think its possible for them to track if u used a mod or not because its only the client side that gets changed, server side doesnt register anything

I used to read in here and see many desperate people saying "I'm on 99.6%....can't find those last 0.4% anywhere."

Don't get me wrong, I have less of a problem with people who have played the game without mods and put in the work only to be stuck on the brink. Canthan GMC was notorious for this, as it has less leeway than the others. So stuck in that position it's more understandable that someone should use all the resources available (not that I am condoning it - I'd never be that desperate).

But someone that uses a mod to go from 60% to 100% over a weekend so that can fast-track their KOABD ... well it only devalues the achievement of people that put in the work and did it without modding their game.

Take a look at this link: http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9504/gw002ry7.jpg the mod effectively loads in a fully explored map and highlights where you need to go - it's fairly obvious that 95% of the work has been done by someone else and you're just following in their footsteps. Without this mod, everything was fog, the missing areas were indistiguishable and you had to search for them - meaning you had to slowly scrape (fighting mobs as you go) to get results. Now the work is done for you and, with a good running build, it's a matter of hours to get Grandmaster.

'Legendary' was supposed to mean something. Yet another case of a Legendary title being reachable in a few hours. I had the same experience with Legendary Survivor. It took me a couple of months of carefully playing missions and capping skills. Then I found people posting on here about how they'd paid people to power-level them and farmed the title in half a day.

Sux to be me heh? :-) I really think A-Net could do something about this one though. Although it's possibly a bit late.

Why should "Anet" do anything about this mod?

This mod has helped countless people stuck on 98%+ of their title. In fact this mod only becomes useful when you are that far and need to find those small difficult to find spots.

Plus, I can guarantee that those guys only used the mod for the last areas they needed, and that they had most of Cantha opened before they started on their "one day" (these are guys who have played through the game normally and now just want to max some title for HoM!) - and they still had to scrape the walls and cover all the ground you did. The fact that they dedicated one whole day to clearing up the last corners of the map was their choice and the fact that you did your mapping while doing other things at the same time was your choice. It WILL NOT take anyone ONE single day to start from scratch on a new char in Cantha and finish it, completely mapped... it will take considerably more time.

{sarcasm}Old man on a veranda watching the traffic go by... "lets all go back to walking around or riding horses - it's totally unfair and should not be allowed, that these young people can just whiz around at the speed of light in these new motor cars and get things done so much more easily than I did... in my day..." {/sarcasm}

Well, I think the OP does have a valid point. It's one thing to go out and do it the hard way, it's another to have someone to hold your hand (like using a cartography mod). Balthazar knows that I was a little peeved when they made the repuation rewards for the books 20-30k now as I spent the first Saturday of GWEN just farming Vanguard points to the get the armor.
But on the other hand there are alot of ppl out there who do have difficulty comparing two things-like maps. I'm currently at 99% Elong, 98.7% Cantha and 98% Tyria, and from looking at the maps I can't make out much of a difference and have often thought of using those mods. I haven't yet cause to me it would feel like I'm cheating the system, even though I'm just using the resources at hand.
One thing I will fully agree on is that those 2 guys bragging about GMC in one day-that seems to me that they're just trying to get a rise out of those that worked on the title and that's just poor showmanship. It's alright to brag about it, just don't do it in a way that devalues something someone worked hard for.

The problem isn't the means of obtaining titles. You need to scrape 100%, no more, no less. And using an overlay mod doesn't change that. Also - Cantha is small.

The real problem is: SOME PEOPLE THINK TITLES MEAN SOMETHING.

Titles are worthless. Even "mere god". I'd prefer to call highest rank: "That, which has no life" or something.

If you feel that the title you achieved is something you can be proud of - fine.

But never expect that a single other person will care about it.

Titles are worthless and do not make you special. And it works in reverse - because someone gained a title, they aren't anymore special than they were.

Let 'em have 'em fancy automobiles and motor bikes. Just make them get off my lawn.


Come to think of it, there is one achievement I would be congratulate upon: Maxing KoaBD in shortest time. Anything goes, even eBay. That would show true mastery of everything. Kinda of a speedrun.

See....this is just frustrating. Saying that you find titles are meaningless and you don't give a hoot about them-that's one thing.

Saying that everyone else feels that way is just being an a**.

I have several friends who don't care about titles and as such don't work on them. But they at least appreciate when someone works really hard at one and actually earns it. 'Cause that's what titles are all about-showing off an in game achievement-something that you can be proud of. I know that I'm proud of every single title I have (I'm up to People Know Me) and I've gotten PMs about which titles I've maxed and whether or not I have any advice for those working on getting that Rainbow Phoenix.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I see someone walk through town with rank4 or higher in KoBD, I take notice (and I know other ppl take notice too-just look in local chat).

So just because you find titles meaningless doesn't give you the right to insult those of us who work hard and actually earn something in game.

Just out of curiosity...what's the name of the programm.

Now to the topic, i kinda agree with Friday.

You can find the info at:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...-game_graphics
This not only has the GMC mods and a link to where you can download the program (TexMod) but it also tells you ANet's official stance on the subject.
It also has other mods (like making your shield look like the Xbox logo etc.) that you can use too.

Have fun! (Cause that's what we're all about )

Why an insult?

Titles won't buy you my respect. If anything, whining over titles is much worse. Do them if you feel like it - but commanding respect from others is a joke. The only thing that's sillier is in WoW where a level 70 calls level 68 a noob.

Long ago, skill purchases had no upper bound. It was because people whined that they cost too much that today it's possible to buy skills for 1 plat per piece.

Think about it while maxing the skill hunter. Or I'll start whining about how everyone has it easy, and that 999th skill should cost 100 plat as it was meant in the beginning, and that it's too easy to max it.

But the titles you achieve will disappear the day GW goes down. What then? Will you say: That was 10,000 hours well spent? I earned respect of thousands of players? Are you sure?

No, titles do not earn one respect. But complaining over "too easy" makes one lose all respect. Look at other thread about treasure hunter.

Torqual, congrats on your title, lord knows i wouldn't have the patience for it. The thing is this, it's like when I did my skill capping, I didn't go and clear the whole map of creeps to get to the cap I wanted, I took the fastest route from outpost to the boss, avoiding everything I could. The tex mod for the fog is a tool for those wanting to get their 100%. Just as already mentioned in the post, you still have to do the exploring, but now you don't have to sit there staring at the map with a magnifying glass trying to figure out if that one pixel is fog or not. My Tyria map is at 97% or so now, and I cannot for the life of me see where the remaining 6% is, and I have taken my toon over every inch of Tyria. Now, I have no plans to try for cartographer, but if I was to, I would definitely use the mod to find the remaining area(s), rather than spen hours and hours of aggravation running around to what I "think" might yield me a tenth of a percent.

It's pretty insulting when you say that someone else's achievement is meaningless.

If you don't like titles, then don't do them.

Just don't belittle those of us who want to spend our gaming hours working on titles.

As for commanding respect...I never said everyone had to respect someone for having a title that they don't have. All that I'm saying is speak for yourself, and don't speak for the entire community. You don't think titles are worthy of respect? Fine. Just don't disrespect those of us who work on them.

I did Tyrian, Canthan and Elonian GMCs with no mods and I did my own map comparisons. It took a while and I felt a sense of achievement finishing it, like I do with all the titles i've maxed. However I couldn't really be bothered going through all this hassle again for GW:EN cartography so i downloaded the mod and just do a few % when i'm bored. When I first heard about the Texmod "Cartography Made Easy" I thought it would rob me of my hard work. But long story short, it didn't, I still got the title and if others had more resources so what?

Read the OP again.

He's belittling everyone who uses cartography mod, although that mod doesn't change anything, and you still need to walk 100% of entire area.

Yes... one truly shouldn't speak for all. Good advice.

Am I really the one belittling achievement?

Very good comparison indeed, becauser these guys (with degrees bought on the net) usually get the job they deserve: utter crap.

What I see in your long description is two kind of people: the one scratching the surface of things and that only get joy and self-esteem when showing off to others; and the one that takes great pleasure in spending time and efforts going through the process and congratulating himself over the personal achievement.

Two complete opposites, and tbh I pity these guys, really pity them. I hope they only have this attitude in-game, if not they won't go very far (may be they bought a degree on the net? )

Agree. And I cannot wait for the day (?) when I'll be able to achieve this (I should spend less time on GWG )

May here lies the secret of "success": don't aim for the "badge of honour", if only the one that you'll give yourself!

Actually I understand that it'd be technically easy but probably quite dangerous for Anet (close to the spyware, look what happened to Sony and their blue-ray discs...). But this is not Anet's problem: GW is a software and as any software it'll get "abused", no one can do ANYTHING about it.

The same "technology" (modding) that will enable you to get GWLP or pre-Searing Ascalon scenery in post-Searing, will enable you to do things like that. It's a two-sided sword.

Point the finger in the right direction: it's poor GW players (probably not a lot of them).

IMO its not right to allow people to use mods ingame which give that huge an advantage (if it doesnt infact highlight areas), but then they dont allow others! Its hypercritical and its unfair on those who did that work without the mods.

But then there are two sides to the coin...

1) You have a person who spent weeks exploring and cant find the last 0.1% and they use the mod to help.
2) You have a person who just wants a max title and uses the mod from the start and its done within a day.

Im sure the mod was created with the best intentions, but it is basically getting exploited. My opinion is that such a mod shouldnt kick in until you have 90% and THEN it helps you get the last 10%.

But I personally would never use such a thing.

I admit I compared maps using photoshop, but that is NO where near as bad as a mod which actually highlights areas ingame.

But there is nothing you can do! Once again Anet has stood back and devalued ANOTHER title. Cartographer used to mean something, and now its nothing but an easy 4 extra titles.

What advantage? Title is not advantage. And even spending less time in real-life achieving GMC is not an advantage, since anyone can do it.

Stop scapegoating Anet. To implement anti-modding, they'd probably have to create spyware that would look on your computer (i.e. outstide the GW folder) for modding tools. Do you feel comfortable with that? (hint: potential for abuse is HUGE, people do NOT like spywares, full stop)

I have never understood why anyone would do all this in the first place. It sounds boring and tedious. It sounds like you even found it that way. And for all that you get some title which I would just assume you turn off anyway so I could actually click on the merchants or xunlai chests instead of all the names/titles all around them. But as far as your sense of accomplishment goes, let me point out that these guys using the mod had to do many of these things also, right? The mod doesn't help them deal with empty jade quarry, doesn't get them into Vizunah local/foreign, and doesn't get them in the boardwalk any sooner. IMO there is not much prestige to be had via playing GW anyway (I don't get the armor thing either). Who cares what some other player who you don't even know thinks? Its just fun to play, so if you enjoy doing all that stuff to get your grand title, then it has all the value that you need, but if not, why in the world would you be doing it?

Do you realize you're "insulting" everyone who has achieved cartographer title?

The difference between my stance of "all titles are worthless by design" and "another title made worthless" is that with time, all titles will become worthless. I just skip to the end.

So how far may one go before it's cheating? How much can be automated before a title loses respect?

What about people who got 95%+ Tyria before the title even existed? How would they feel about comparing maps?

I see where you're coming from here.

Irregardless of how they got-they got it. A GMC is still worthy of respect whether you did it the hard way or the easy way.

Using a Cart. mod isn't for me, but hey if you want to use one-go for it.

Why you care is beyond me. It's just a title, and other people getting it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. Right now you're not the only one with GMC.. so? QQ?
How? Exploiting glitches = skill? lol?
This is just more crying over your e-peen that we find every day on these forums.

Title are, frankly, constructed on buggy premises. The OP himself pretty well outlines this. I see no problem is untilizing a mod that helps one circumvent flaws in the system.

Ultimately it's about fun (it is a game, after all, not a degree program). I don't think the rigamarole the OP describes involved in getting the title "legit" is fun for very many people. I also don't think any of it demonstrates "skill" as the OP states. More like "having an enormous amount of time on your hands."

As longtime LC and someone who helped countless others with their exploration, I have to say I could not care less about this.

When you know where to find the spots you are missing, you can hunt them down fast.
People did mapcompares here on guru, either free or for charge.
Others did their own compare against 100% maps.
And others just hugged every wall there is and got 100%.

I can do GMC Cantha in a minimum of time, since I know where some of the more difficult spots are and how to explore the most efficient way.
That has nothing to do with the mod or whatever, just smart play.
If someone can play all missions in one day and can also manage to have time after that to explore, I'd say (s)he should get out more.

However, I'd like to point out that I find it hard to believe they got their title in a day from 0 to 100%.
I even more doubt this is possible for the other continents.

In the end, Texmod made things easier for people, but it does not help others more than map compares on forums (or by themselfs).

You miss quuoted me and made it look like I use mods, which I dont. A miss type I expect (hope), but anyway!

I didnt say the title was an advantage, I said using the mod to achieve the title was an advantage! You cant argue otherwise, its a fact. I can understand people using it if they need that last few % marks because ive been there and done it.

But to those who think "right im going to explore and use the mod right from the start" without atleast reaching 80-90% themselves first, I think that is sheer lazeyness!

There is no excuse to not atleast try "on your own" first, before resorting to mods for help!

lol it took you 4 weeks? It took me 2 days to do Elonian Cartographer, without any outside help.

gfg. problem exists between keyboard and chair, no?

I can understand the OP, I cant use the textmod thingy and doing map comparisons makes me physically ill (being blind in one eye and the other aint that great either....).
I admit I got some help with my cartography titles for tyria and cantha (someone else doing the comparing for me and then telling me to go to all the following areas...and that should do it, but I still had to go to all the areas etc)....and I thanked the individuals profusely when I achieved them...I paid no one and there was no text mod back then. I still have yet to complete elona (cant be a....to do a stupid challenge mission just to map )....so I'm stuck on that one for now.
I got my titles the hard way, same for some of the others: my survivor never used a scroll and had nothing to cap on those double xp cap weekends...they did it the old fashioned way...killing and questing. I dont have a large guild so doing missions is either h/h or me and my other guildee so getting prots has taken a bit longer as well (just finished prot of tyria with my rit last night, felt good).
My titles mean something to me, and thats all that matters if other people are choosing the 'lazy' way of getting them, then so be it, but dont compare me to them.
(and hugging the walls etc wasnt 'fun' it was part of the goal---yes it was a bit laborious but when I got my .1 or .2 I felt like I had achieved something. THAT was why I was doing it ---not for some title, because in all likelihood I wont be getting gw2 and the HoM just aint that powerful enough goal for me to push myself).

I got Legendary Cartographer by taking hundreds of screenshots of each continent and placing them on top of another map in photoshop and comparing. The title means little to me now, as I won't be doing it on any of my other characters, and what would I say to your friends? Goodjob. This is like me saying I payed 100k+30 ecto for a bone dragon when it was new... and then someone selling on in Kamadan for 90k. I don't bitch, moan, complain, or whine about it. This isn't affecting you, why should you care? You sound like my grandfather... "I had to walk ten miles to school every day... uphill both ways!"

Stopped reading the OP's whine n' cheese rant halfway through. I'm starting to think these guys have the "Waaabulance" on speed dial.

How are they lazy?? Carto'ing will still take a while no matter what.

and how are you going to stop people from modding there own computer? to enchance the ability to complete a goal...that may save them hours, days and weeks of exploring, for their own individual success. it isnt hurting you or any other player in game does it.

so i make it simple for you just DONT use it...

and stop flaming Anet over minor issues..that stuff gets real old

OH and to the OP...if they did it in a day they more than likely already had most completed from doing storyline..then they still worked at it...IF they did it in a day..dont believe everything they tell you in game..

Everyone using any external tool could be in risk to be banned, that's my opinion. So, I don't use that things, plain and simple. Good luck to the ones using it.

So is using MappingOut to quickly find all the boss locations for each skill and being able to make a bee-line to them in order to get your Legendary Skill Hunter a cheat also?

Its a third party utility that makes information more available - only difference is that you have to alt-tab to get it.

Hmm... but then the guild-wiki would be a cheat as well as using the in-forum assistance of others to compare maps to find your missing spots.


I did my Tyrian the "old fashioned way" and got the last .5% of Cantha with the help of TexMod. Which one felt better? Honestly the later. I was able to spend more time playing with other players instead of telling them "sorry I'm to busy staring at a wall trying to make some fog disappear." I'd already done a huge amount of work to get close, this made the end game faster. So when I got to Elona with my GMC char did I use TexMod? Absolutely, but it made 0 difference to me until I got very close to the end.

Actually, as Galie has already said textmod won't get you banned. They just don't support it if it "blows up your fridge."

you dont know what you are talking about...plain and simple..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Texmod

i would suggest reading above link before stating your opinion again on this matter

QQing over GMC? That's good comedy.
Here's a hint: the only worthwhile PvE titles are Guardian and Vanquisher. GMC is for carebears who care so much, they want to hug everything.

I say that it's my title let me 'earn' it how ever I want.

So your saying that when people didnt have calculators they had to solve problems in their heads or use the little wooden scale things and once we got calculators it was unfair because it made everything easier.

Tough luck...

The cartography mod was created for the sole purpose of helping those who continued posting on the forums about not being able to find the last 1%. Yes, there were people offering to do map comparisons, but rather than wait on someone else to provide you with the locations, I decided to make this mod so the comparisons could be done on the fly. While it wasn't intended for permanent use, I assumed some would use it on new characters to clear zones as they went. To consider this mod as cheating is the same as saying map comparisons are cheating. The only difference is the immediate gratification the mod provide.

Even using the mod, however, you are still required to scrape the edges, go through all the zones, slaughter your way through the mobs. So of all the titles, this is still one of the more difficult to attain.

Im allowed to express my opinion about whether I like or dont like mods. If you read what I wrote, I said IMO they are ok if they are aiding someone after they have put atleast some effort in.

But for a person to just use a mod to do an entire task, with none of their own effort is lazey!

That doesnt mean im saying dont do it, because ive earnt my own titles myself without any mods or advantages. I can say that with prid! But if you dont mind how it reflects on you by using a mod then go ahead.

It doesnt bother me any.

It may not be cheating, just like map checks is considered not to be cheating. But it does give an unfair advantage to players who do not use mods or got their cartographer titles the 'hard' way. (Like me)

But due to the technical nature of the mods I don't see them being canceled. So, for now try to cry until you forget about it.