Canthan Grandmaster Cartographer in a day - What's A-Net going to do about it?

Gaile, it's been the forgivable lack of knowledge on your part that has made me nervous. Earlier in the thread you posted this:

"In a matter of days" is HIGHLY situational. I could imagine someone mapping 10% in a day with no breaks at all, but anything more than that and it starts to get iffy. When you map, you can't rush things. You can't bring a fast running build because if you go too quick, you'll miss a spot. So you end up going through at a normal and tame pace, killing what's in your path, and taking your time. If you go against this, you will screw up. Not to mention all of the missions you have to accomplish before doing so.

So what specifically does this mod do? It makes it slightly more error proof. It's not fun, nor a testament to any "skill" to have to go back and find the spot to map that one insy-wincy bit that you missed. Cartography is not any easier: I still have to wall walk like crazy, and that WILL take time, no matter what - and the difference in time between using this mod and using without is nearly nothing. And there's still the ever-present unavoidable annoyance of simple human error that could eat up a chunk of your time.

Now this is where I start to get a bit uncomfortable. Given that you know little about the mod, you go and do this:

You sent him an e-mail about a situation that you did not fully understand, where we have no source or basis that this mod makes cartographing "stupid easy". Given that people have used it and mapped with it and have said that it does make it a little easier (even enjoyable), the difference in time is minimal - and really, that's all that this takes: time.

The fact that you sent him an email IS overly concerning.Then again, we don't know how often you e-mail him about other issues and the like. But given that you *did* mention it makes me a little anxious.

The reason I'm persisting in this thread is one I've stated numerous times already: I don't want the modding community to die. And if ANet wants to make it so we can't use the cartography mods, the only way to do so is to remove the use of Texmod altogether.

I could understand if it was something gamebreaking, but this really is NOTHING. If you say "well it must mean something since this is so popular :P," it's only like that because I don't want people - most notably, you and the devs - to get the wrong idea about what's really going on. Torqual's posts, along with a few others, have done little but either overexaggerate or claim false and uninformed facts (the mod was referred to as "a piece of programming", which is COMPLETELY untrue. It's nothing more than an image file.)

I'll say it again. I do not want the modding community to die over something so frivilous and pointless. You may continue to say that things may very well be fine, but I will continue to expect the worst.

Why does people think this mod makes it easy. All it does is save you a few eye squinting hours. You still got to run to the edges and sometimes fight mobs. It's helpful, but doesn't make it doable in 1 day or a week.


This entire thread fails!

I'm going to dip my oar in here again.

This mod is a "resource". It does not complete your title for you, it does not make the ground you need to cover any less, it does not unfog your map for you in any way - you still need to actually unfog each pixel yourself.

Here's a thought:
If this is considered a "cheat" then the in-game Wiki should, by the same measure, also be considered a "cheat" and "harmful" to the game - why, it has mission walk-throughs that provide step by step instructions on completing a mission and it's bonus. Oh! It even has maps for each mission that has dots that show the exact path you must walk to complete the mission and the bonus - now that is truly unfair to all the guys that did these missions before the Wiki had these guides posted, the poor guys who had to figure out for themselves what any mission bonus was even. The Wiki should be removed and certainly should NOT be accessible from in-game.

Sound ridiculous?

As ridiculous as making out that this resource is "harmfull to the game and a "cheat".

Thank you.

Maybe it could even be taken into consideration to be integrated with the Cartographer title: upon the first level, and only when the title is selected, the fog resolution on the map would be enhanced so that everyone could benefit from such a fine player-contribution that is Texmod.

For example, have the title for Tyria selected and the fog there (and only there) would have a greater contrast; the same for Cantha and Elona.

How you ask a-net(or guru) to delete these thread because it makes mapping easier!

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3014664
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10039148
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10051772

Since when is the validity of claims decided by the number of postings in a thread. It is disappointing that stuff gets included in the community summary based on this, while other issues seem to get neglected.

The issue is "is using textmod to help with cartography a cheat".

This extends to more than just the mapping mods. THIS is the question.

I can only agree to ryanryanryan0310:
Yep. I was using this mod and I am still not Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer. I still have to hug tiny spots here and there.

The request made by the OP was that nobody should have a tool to help him identifying these spots, so that it takes longer and becomes more painful.

The process of acquiring this title can be summed up as eternal and painfully boring wallhugging, and the request is that everyone should have to put as much effort into this as those who already got the title the harder way.


Now this is just wishful thinking:

1. Many people could already create difference maps with Photoshop. Takes more effort, but works, too. Or compare maps, run GW in a Window and have a GMC map below.

2. You cannot stop the use of Texmod. You would force ANet to create some sort of anti-cheat-tool like Punkbuster to prevent the use of Texmod.


I wonder that ANet cares about cartography, as Texmod has much better uses:

50% health markers on the bar, spirit range on radar... these influence PvP, the competitive part of the game, but they are not hyped like that, while having much more impact on the game.

It would be nice that the options that Texmod gives to players be official toggable aids on the GUI. If anything this thread should start/continue pushing in that direction.

edit: note i said TOGGABLE. (is that even a word...)

Why would I ask to delete any of those threads? I'm very grateful for every single legitimate player contribution. It helps everyone to enjoy a better quality time with Guild Wars.

Because I consider Textmod such a nice tool it would be great if ArenaNet could improve the Cartographer title based on that mod.

I thanked Gaile Gray for her respect to the community and commitment to keep us informed, regardless of the different opinions exposed in this thread and the more sharp reactions to her posts. I wholly trust her to expose to the higher powers both sides of the issue.

Also, integrating a player-motivated idea into the game would be a magnificent PR move; much more than killing it.

I know this is a little late in the day, but I know both Torqual and the 2 mentioned in the OP - all of them are guildies. They did indeed get 2 GMC titles over the space of a weekend - admittedly, they didn't do much else, but they definitely did it. Their constant updates over guild chat made me pretty sure

I can't source this, or prove it, but I just had to confirm that it did happen.

So it toke them 2 day to go from 0%-100% or from 95%+ to 100%?

As I'm not them, I don't know. Obviously it wasn't 0-100%, but I'm assuming around 60-70, to 100%, seeing as they hadn't made a push for cartographer before.

.

I don't understand it?

Exploration => Enter area, hug one wall from the entrance, circle entire area, cross if it's too big to uncover the center, zone into new area and repeat.
If you can't finish an area, note the spot where you ended and start the next time from there.
That's all it takes.

The fog system comes in when people did not do this from the start.
It helps people to keep track.
However, if someone did not hug the walls from the start, there will be a lot of fog around the edges and it's hard to spot that right away.
That's not bad fog design, it just means that people did not take exploration serious from the start and now pay the price.

I have helped numerous people with their Tyrian GMC because I know the pain of that last few percent.
However, as I've commented several times in threads about exploration, it's because people think it's an easy title (they see 80% completed, wow, that can't be hard...) they get into trouble.

This is the problem, not bad fog design or a Texmod feature missing in the game.

By the way, if anyone was planning to get LGMC, do it now while Texmodding is still legal. Pretend you are racing against the Anet programmers who are implementing the carto nerf as we speak.

The text mod does little to help those that are just starting to explore, on the other hand for players that have already beaten the game and have uncoverd 80-95% of all maps simply from farming/running/questing/missions it make that last little bit very quick and easy.

When the titles first came out I found my main char was at 85% of Tyria, since then I have slowly moved up to 99.4% with just a little bit of effort. I have hugged walls from ascalon to Kryta and will likely find my last few %'s in The Falls or Reed Bog.

Exploring/vaquishing all maps might take me another couple of months concidering how often I choose to do them. However with a text mod it would take me under 30 min to locate and run to those last few spots I am missing.

If the game had a built in feature that showed me where those spots were I would likely use it, but since it doesn't I will continue as I have in the past and take some personal pride in all the effort I put forth for this.

I've got 96.6% on my tyrian GM title.

Now the problem i have is that their are little bits that i need to get to in order for me to scrape the extra %.

Now when i have this mod up it shows me shaded area's that cannot be reached and some that can, so is their a way of finding out which of the shaded area's i can and can't map.

Couple suggestions:

read this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10032479
Lots of good suggestions and missed places

When you do Fort and Jade, be sure to watch the full intro videos - you can pick up some fog by doing this as well.

Have you entered and run the full challenge missions? (such as Altrumm Ruins)


TBH, pull down the mod in question and use TexMod - I think you might be surprised to see the little slivers that you could have sworn you wall hugged and missed. But I can understand if you are morally opposed to this.

@the_jos: There are many times where you think you hugged the walls all the way, and then you find out that you're stuck at 99.9% at the end and have no idea what you missed. Maybe you rushed in one tiny section, maybe you didn't push hard enough, etc. The point is that there is no definite way to know when you are finished exploring a zone until BOOM, you have 100% in the title. What would Vanquishing be like if you only got the title once you vanquished everything everywhere without that zone counter?

The number of people who get the title without relying on their map is far, far below those who do.

I'll treasure my cartography title even more since I don't use the the cartography made easy texmod (and I wander why is it call MADE EASY) while everyone kept saying it did not make it easy, and claim that it is the same as if you don't use, so, why use texmod if it did not make the task easy?

My peeved is, if the mod made it easy, just admit it that you got your title the easy way, its not a crime to do things easy, you just didn't put in the effort, I on the other hand, like to do it the way ANET meant for it to be done. that's all. I can't understand why the denial that it is easier when you use texmod.

I didn't put in the effort because I could see the fog better?

*head explodes*

you did not put in the effort of having to GUESS which area you did not uncovered.

i know it because I am doing it right now, going from one map to the next, clearing everything.

hahaha, having fun doing it, because that's a lot of gold (money) drop and loots (wanders why players complain theres not enough loot... probably because they took the shortcut and use texmod)

and getting the 0.1% only when I stumble upon it.

the texmod ways is I GIVE UP, i want to finished the title NOW! and you have overlay, and you see, OH THERE IT IS, WHY HAVE I NOT THINK OF IT, and you go to that one map that texmod pointed that you have a fog area and you clear that area, and voila, done. sure you have to clear the obstacle ONCE more on the way and that's it.

if a person doing it without texmod, I look at my map, and sees a suspicious spot, I go to that maps, clear the way, get to the suspicious area, BUMMERS ITS ALREADY BEEN CLEARED. et cetera.

I'm sorry if I consider that an absolute waste of time and having nothing at all to do with exploration.

So people should guess what bosses carry what elites when they go capping too? And looking at a guide or wiki makes them lazy and is considered them taking the easy way out?

BINGO! You know why people didn't take exploration seriously? BECAUSE TITLES WHERE ADDED 1 YEAR INTO THE GAME!

How the heck was I supposed to know when I beat Prophecies prior to Factions coming out that such a thing as an exploration title would exist? You are saying I wasn't commeted to getting a title before titles even existed. Why, that makes perfect sense to me /sarcasm

I'm still being called a liar.

Look, one of the two people I am taking about went from 85%-100% on Cantha and 60%-100% on Elona over the weekend. People are still claiming this is false just because they don't believe it. The problem is not with the accuracy of the information, it is with your lack of belief. Open your minds. Now, there is even a corroborative post from someone else who got the information first hand.

I really don't like the way that I am not allowed to check out of this thread, I said that the issue was a lost cause for me and the mod should be implemented for everybody, as it is generally seen as an improvement to the game. But STILL people are taking advantage of my non participation but cutting and pasting sections of posts I made days ago and ridiculing them out of context. And I am still being branded a liar on the basis that if it's said enough times and not challenged its true. Guys, look above....there are 20 pro-mod posts in a row. There is no-one to argue with? Give it a rest? QQ more?

It's obvious that the mod cannot be taken away as people need to to complete the title and a lot of people would be really unhappy without it. Gaile can see that, but it doesn't matter what people say now, it's the issue that wouldn't die.

The only thing I wish to acknowledge is the previous post by the pumpkin guy. This sums it up perfectly for me. Guru seems to be full of hypocritical people that say:-

Titles are a pointless e-pee - that's why I have 9 of them
You don't NEED Cartographer titles - that's why I downloaded a mod to get them
The mod doesn't make it easier - that's why I use it
The mod doesn't make anything easier - that's why it's called 'cartography made easy'

What's hilarious is the number of people inhabiting this forum that claim not to care about titles and disrespect anyone that pursues them.... and I wonder whether these people in fact have 5, 10, 15 maxed titles on their accounts that maxed themselves, just accidentally, without any effort?

Everywhere I go in Guild Wars, Kamadan, LA, Kaineng, I see People Know Me (2), Holy Lightbringer (8), Legendary Skill Hunter (1), Protectors, Wardens of the Kurzicks, people with ranks of 6+ in reputation. And yet, strangely, none of these people post on GWGuru. Very strange that the people the care enough about a game to spend their time posting on a forum about it tend to belong to the small minority that have zero interest in climbing up the game's ladders?

I think some people are lying here, and it's not me. ANY title in Guild Wars that is maxed requires a specific and concerted effort. They don't just happen by accident. So all the people above talking about e-pees and titles being worthless, have you really got not maxed titles or are you in fact being a hypocrite?

TBH almost all posters here are working on titles, or have achieved some, so really don't expect me to believe otherwise. I made it clear that I had only a moderate interest in titles, that I preferred to play the game slowly and methodically and work on several together (if anyone read my posts). So, for example, mapping Elona while Vanquishing, and gaining LB and SS points. This is just how I play the game. If others want to pick these titles off one by one farming or whatever, it's their game.

However I have been a victim here of transferring and projecting. A lot of people here (and I am not going to cut out posts) have portrayed me as some kind of title fascist, a grind nazi obsessed with keeping myself above the rest of you and spoiling other people's enjoyment of the game. Now what's actually happened is that many people, worried by the amount of time they wasted on getting titles, the importance they placed on them, and not wishing to admit it to themselves, have found a convenient person to throw on their bonfire. This is kind of how bullying works in schools and since a lot of GW players are still in school, it's unsurprising.

I am not guilty of any of the things I have been accused of here. I didn't lie, I didn't exaggerate, I explained clearly how cartographing without mods is bloody difficult, from which anyone who takes the time can see the massive difference that the mod makes. I devoted a lot of time to explaining my points but it's all too easy to dismiss me as a title fascist trying to spoil everyone's good fun. Because that helps the poster deny things about themselves.

Well, I guess I am happy to provide this service of making everyone feel better.

But liar I am not. Game-spoiler I am not. Mod-banner I am not. Title-fascist I am not. Elitist I am not. Grind-masochist I am not.

QQ more anyone?

Torqual, your posts unfortunately will keep disappearing with more and more pages, and not everyone is going to read through the entire thread and realize that you changed your position. So don't get too miffed, it's just bound to happen that others will still only look at a first post in a thread and post right away :] Hard to avoid.

However...

In this thread? I'm not sure. I know many people here have stated that they don't care about the titles of others, while still happily pursuing their own - and not for anyone else's sake than their own satisfaction. I hope that's not hard to believe.

okay, noted, but i thought exploration is all about venturing into the unknown places and find what is there. sorry you think like that.

No, people who do not want to guess what bosses carry what elites don't have to guess. But I like to do it without the guide, at least in the first round of game play, if i absolutely cannot find what I wanted. I'll look it up, i do not launch the game and goes

okay, i am going to cap A, B, C, D, E today, then go to wiki, look up the location and methodically cap them.

If you hug wall. you will get all the Boss on almost all the maps, they are usually always at the edge and furthest points, plus alot of them are right out side towns and outposts. which makes it unnecessary to use wiki at all.

no this is not hard to believe at all.

In GW, cartography (and in turn exploration) is most certainly not about venturing into unknown places - it's about being stupidly methodical about kissing walls and hoping that you're doing it close enough to get that 100%.

Does that make them lazy? If they already did cartography, or don't want to do cartography and thus have no desire to hug walls, wanting to go for the skill capping alone, does that mean they're taking the easy way out if they use the wiki?

Agreed entirely.

The problem is, all people are seeing now is the OP and the isolated fragments that are being cut out and quoted out of context.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...213510&page=16

Is a link to where I admitted defeat on this and said that the mod should implemented as standard into the game, because the title was too difficult for people without, and therefore it was seen as a good thing.

I am capable of understanding when my beliefs are not the majority viewpoint. When I started this discussion, it was supposed to be in the Cartographers' forum. I wanted to know how many people were using the mod, whether the people who got the title without it were concerned, and whether the community as a whole saw it was cheating. I got my answers loud and clear - most people use the mod, many people who didn't use it have no problem with others doing so, and most people didn't see it as cheating. So great....carry on modding folks.

Anyone else that wants to cut out my posts and shout in indignation and disbelief, please read this first....

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...213510&page=16

BTW, just for the benefit of Bryant Again, again, I did make one factual MISTAKE when i used the words 'program' and 'programming' to describe the mod, when in fact it's not an executable file.

Here's that link again....

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...213510&page=16

Perhaps it would help if you edit your first post and add a clear, bold link to your other in the beginning. Might be worth a try.

I really appreciate the suggestion but I do not consider that it would be correct forum etiquette to go back and start altering the OP. Personally I can't stand it when people do this. They throw a hand grenade into a forum, everyone goes crazy then they delete the offending posts to make the people reacting look silly.

There are already 20+ pages of this, but really, if someone doesn't take the time to read them in order, then they shouldn't post. In fact, even people that did read them shouldn't post. I shouldn't post. READER, you shouldn't post.

No-one post, then this thread and all it's horridness will GO AWAY.

i agree just edit your first post... to titles and such. I personally don't give a rat's ass who has what title on what character they have or don't have.... all i care about are my titles... I work on them when i want to and if i want to...there is very little real benefit to them except for some pve skills and affects...and some exaggerated chance to retain lockpicks or some such...i haven't even done the 3 easy ones yet. I have protector in tyria but not in elona and factions...but yet i am rank 5 on treasure hunter and have vanquish title for tyria...bah i am just rambling.... to each their own...don't worry about other peoples titles...just take pride in the ones that you accomplish and life would be much simpler. sorry for any typos or stupid sounding english...i am tired and want to go home....work is boring today.

OK. I added a link.

no, they are not lazy, just don't deserve to be call a cartographer, if they don't desire to do it.

Pumpkin, I'm not talking about cartographers there. I'm talking about people who cap elites and find out where to go by looking at the official wiki, which is an outside aid similar in purpose to Texmod - to prevent guesswork and waste of time, and increase efficiency.

One you consider taking the easy way out, and I'm asking if you consider the skill cap example as someone being lazy as well. To me, they're almost one and the same.

Would looking up elite skills on the official wiki be the way ANet intended it to be? There's links to it right there in-game.

It's not *you* I don't believe, but the people. Given the atmosphere of GW - a huge mess of gloating, /ranking, and dishonest scammers - it's understandable why most people don't trust too well in this game.

They technically are worthless. They don't really give any bonuses besides saying that you have a lot of time.

As for me? Yes I have 5 maxed titles so far. And if I wanted to show them off, I wouldn't have the Int. dist set as my home district.

When you've already been there numerous time to the area it gets boring. Having to go back and get that one spot you missed is even more irritating.

And as Karyuu said, you don't really see a whole lot when you're forced to walk into walls at a 45 degree angle.

Tell that to Gaile : \ That's really the only reason I'm here at this point.

OK, to me a cartographer is someone who maps places. If I was trying to map an area on foot then I would have a blank piece of paper and would fill it in as I visited different areas. In GW you start with a foggy completed map, which you slowly unfog. It is the (wholly artificial and "unrealistic") existence of the foggy completed map which appears to make this such a difficult task.

People,

Relax. I talk to Mike O'Brien all the time about all nature of things. My contacting him on this wasn't a "Big the Big Red Button" action! It was "Hey, here's something players want to know." One of many questions, not a focus, not a concern.

This is about "Can we shut down the mod now?" We love the mods! This is much more of a general question as we all get familiar with the use of mods and the many things they can (and cannot) do.

The suggestion that the visual clarity/fog distinction capacity should get into the game is interesting. Have you ever wondered why we have a radar? For the very reason that people will create map hacks that give them an advantage so we've given everyone a level playing field with the radar. So I can understand the suggestion and it'll be interesting to see what the designers feel about that idea. (And they designers may not know if I don't point it out, so it's all good.)

^^^ Yet again, we have gotten word from A-Net on a ridiculously stupid whine thread that should have been closed at page one. When is this thread gonna get closed?? AVARRE HELP!!

No, i would not call them lazy, I'd call it a short cut. and a short cut is a short cut is a short cut is a short cut.

as there are many types of players out there, some have work, some have family, friends, you cannot expect everyone to do gaming the whole day.


Bryant_Again, Look above your post, I've already answer Karyuu on the skill cap thing.

PS: I would be overjoyed if Arena Net Decide to include the overlay in the game. So Thank You Gaile Gray, if you have read, there are many thread before this one that suggest some kind of aid for the Cartography title.

You've effectively took care of your own argument, then.

It's a ridiculously stupid whine thread is it?

Your post made it so much better though. For me, it was the highlight of 20 pages of discussion. Congratulations on your insightful contribution.