Nerfs are good. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:08 - 1

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.

They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad?
I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so.
They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad?

Flame me.

Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again.

kobey

GW Retiree

Join Date: Nov 2005

Sg Unknown [KATE]

W/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:11 - 2

I like the way you view nerfs. Makes the gw community a nicer place if most people see things your way.

Eg. of why nerfs are good: If it weren't for the AOE nerf (ele got hit real bad) a year plus ago, Necro (MM,SS) and Ranger (Barragers etc) will still be unwanted in PVE now.

Nerfs makes people think of new builds to overcome the challenges and changes are fun and refreshing

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:13 - 3

/agree

Nerfing is not only good, but very much needed, the fact that many things introduced by Nightfall were not nerfed damaged PvP greatly.

Arya Littlefinger

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2007

Shatners New Order of Borealis

Mo/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:14 - 4

I am a mostly PvEr and I love skill updates, they make you have to try out new things and keep the game fresh. I have never once went on a rant about skill changes, and usually am the one fighting with guildies about how skill updates are GOOD. I don't make flame threads on guru like OMG GG ANET U RUND MAI LIFE!

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

14 Nov 2007 at 15:18 - 5

Don't really think the sin nerf will stick, SP/Black Mantis/Jungle/Trampling Ox/Falling Lotus/Twisting Fangs is still just as harsh.

But all nerf's are good, the LoD nerf got people thinking and the nerf to spiritway should change things in HA.

odly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:18 - 6

/agreed.

Although buffing would do the same thing without makeing as many people angry.

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

14 Nov 2007 at 15:19 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Wait, Yanman posting a useful thread that makes sense?

Oh wow.

It's a shame that PvErs don't understand reason.

Its a shame that pvpers don't understand anything thats not about them. IE pretty much everything.

Nerfs are BAD. Espicaly nerfs done for no obvious reason other then because of a VERY small vocal minority seems to think its would be a good idea. If you need an example of how bad nerfs can be. See what happend to Star Wars galaxies. They turned it from the best MMO ever in to a laughing stock. The same is slowly happening to this game too.

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

14 Nov 2007 at 15:20 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Littlefinger

I am a mostly PvEr and I love skill updates, they make you have to try out new things and keep the game fresh. I have never once went on a rant about skill changes, and usually am the one fighting with guildies about how skill updates are GOOD. I don't make flame threads on guru like OMG GG ANET U RUND MAI LIFE!

In that case, I'm not talking about you. I know there are also many people who DO understand reason, and that there are quite a lot intelligent PvErs. However, you'll have to agree with me, in general, PvErs don't adapt and whine about everything.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:22 - 9

Quote:

How is that bad?

Nerfs often close exploitable holes that people are using to artificially advance their game. You see more complaining about them here than most other places because this isn't really a "fan site" so much as a hangout for farmers, hardcore PvPers, etc. and those are the types of people who are generally negatively impacted.

Really, most people in the game don't give a crap about the updates one way or another. The most they're affected is by the delay in launching the application.

The PvPers whine because they're actually challenged again (note the whining over MM nerfs when people couldn't trot around invincibly huge armies anymore, but people still play MM anyway), the farmers whine because they can't collect ridiculous amounts of money/loot anymore. Mostly, though, nobody in the game who's actually playing it to play it cares one way or another.

Quote:

I resent that statement.

Ignore the troll. He's just crapping in the thread to try and start a PvP versus PvE flamewar because he doesn't have anything actually worthwhile to say. 99% of what Bankai has every posted, in fact, so far as I can tell, is pointless drivel meant to start a fight because he thinks he's better than everybody else.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:22 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Don't really think the sin nerf will stick, SP/Black Mantis/Jungle/Trampling Ox/Falling Lotus/Twisting Fangs is still just as harsh.

I gave this a go and it's not quite as painful as the old, common Shadow Prison build. It is powerful but it has more vulnerabilities and isn't always lethal because it doesn't have Blades of Steel.

I'd say it's balanced.

Akaraxle

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Italy

E/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:24 - 11

Judging from his avatar, I'd say Yanman is someone that wants his face punched.

<3 ;D

cerb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2005

Sept-Iles, QC, Canada

Les Tric??ratops Sont Nos [Amis]

Mo/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:28 - 12

It depends on what you do...

Some people do things legit and others do the same thing but abusing it (i.e.: bots), and those that always played legit get penalized.

I will agree that if you play the game (I suppose) the way it is supposed to be played (no farming, soloing, just teaming and doing missions/quests), then yeah, nerfs force you to change your builds.

However, if you like to play the game in a different manner and rely on game factors a lot (skills, AI), nerfs might you a lot more. The AoE nerf that preceded Nightfall release truly hurt a lot of farmers and led to many players leaving the game. And many of those farmers aimed to improve themselves, the speed of their runs, their success rate, and I'm not the only one that enjoyed the game for these kind of challenges. Yet a huge nerf happened (AI changes can potentially hurt a lot more than skill changes/nerfs) to stop botters...

You know, who minds if I make a thousand ectos and have five sets of FoW armor and the best possible items in the game if that's the way I like to play it? I mean, as long as I don't abuse this, for instance, by starting to sell items on eBay (which is prohibited by the GW terms of use) and making money off it - people who played Diablo II will understand this -, I'm not hurting anyone, so why should I be restricted because of cheaters?

Of course there will always be alternatives you might say, but tanking a huge number of mobs is pretty much funner than going slowly, which feels like WoW, to me anyways. I don't care if "in real life, if you firestormed a bunch of people, they would all run away". Guild Wars doesn't have to try and emulate real life or at least plausible situations (just like in MMORPGS you generally cant solo a huge lot of mobs, but have to take them out in small groups).

This is coming from someone whose only enjoyment from GW was farming and challenging myself to finding better and faster builds. I did not leave because of the nerfs, as I always tried to deal with them as good as I could, but this is just my overall opinion.

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

14 Nov 2007 at 15:28 - 13

To borrow from the platitude...

"Change is good."

Not all individual changes are good (whether they be nerfs or buffs), but the overall concept of continually changing the game is a good thing. I like to see A-Net continuing to have an investment in GW1, especially with all of the resources they are dedicating to GW2.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:34 - 14

/agree
Nerfs force change of stale builds. It keeps the game interesting (even in PvE, which is what I do mostly).

EroChrono

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Netherlands

[WitB]

W/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:37 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

In that case, I'm not talking about you. I know there are also many people who DO understand reason, and that there are quite a lot intelligent PvErs. However, you'll have to agree with me, in general, PvErs don't adapt and whine about everything.

Ehhhh..... I think everyone whines in GW. PvE, PvP, it doesn't matter.

Half of the time PvP players usually have to adapt because their flavour of the month doesn't work anymore. As a result PvE players have to adapt too.

Some of the skills that get nerfed are broken and too powerful to have balanced gameplay, so they get nerfed. Well it sucks but we'll live.

As for me, I'm just a simple PvE player & farmer. From time to time I have to adjust slight things in my builds, but nothing major. I don't mind the nerfs that much

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

14 Nov 2007 at 15:39 - 16

/agree

Skill balance days are like christmas for me. I get to rethink all my builds and come up with a few new ones.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:39 - 17

Quote:

Nerfs force change of stale builds. It keeps the game interesting (even in PvE, which is what I do mostly).

The only thing that ever bugs me about it is when they break perfectly legit PvE builds because PvP builds that share one or more skills with it are being abused.

But, alas, that's a relic of the original design flaw of tying PvP and PvE together intrinsically, so there's not much that can be done at this point but grin and bear it.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

14 Nov 2007 at 15:45 - 18

I don't mind nerf IF we are given a good alternative.

BUT IF the only skills that made it possible to play a CERTAIN way (like non-damage shutdown in PvE) are nerfed and as a replacement we are offered skilles that are completely contrary to my desired playing style (eg. massive DAMAGE (PvE-only) skills) - well then, I am not a very happy camper.
That's my only problem - being forced to play a specific way IF I want to be effective.

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

14 Nov 2007 at 15:46 - 19

<3 nerf's

Reason:

without nerf's we would have countless prot bond monks in RA and AB.... but worst of all..

BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS BOTS

Glider of chaos

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

A/N

14 Nov 2007 at 15:47 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.
...

I'll keep it... well... medium-sized. (nice flamebait btw

)

Nerfs are not fun. While being necessary and even unavoidable sometimes, they don't bring anything new to the game. You just switch to "next best thing in row" and go on like nothing have ever happened. Nerfs don't give new synergies to make a build around, they just make existing synergies worse (or lower damage output).

Bottom line: game updates are good, total rework of skills and change of skill mechanic is interesting. Nerfs are boring.

pkodyssey

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

In a cardboard box with Internet

The Order of the Frozen Tundra (TofT)

N/

14 Nov 2007 at 15:51 - 21

After reading the skill balancing article on Gw.com, I can honestly say that I understand why some of the changes occur. However, I don't PvP often enough to understand the metagame etc. Some things don't make since to me, but we have no choice but to adapt.

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

14 Nov 2007 at 15:54 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider of chaos

I'll keep it... well... medium-sized. (nice flamebait btw

)

Nerfs are not fun. While being necessary and even unavoidable sometimes, they don't bring anything new to the game. You just switch to "next best thing in row" and go on like nothing have ever happened. Nerfs don't give new synergies to make a build around, they just make existing synergies worse (or lower damage output).

Bottom line: game updates are good, total rework of skills and change of skill mechanic is interesting. Nerfs are boring.

Mr Nerf is never seen without Mrs Buff

Aera Lure

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

In Baltar's head

Bring Out Your Dead [BOYD], former officer [LBS]

Mo/

14 Nov 2007 at 16:04 - 23

Nerfs are generally bad. They're generally a negative change, a weakening of some mechanic and usually reducing in some capacity the options that you have with a particular combination.

What is good is balance. Some nerfs with some buffs. That better creates the need and ability to rifle through skills and find previously unused or out of favor combinations.

Too often this game simply falls back on nerfs to knock a certain meta off track without actually really balancing. The end result has been disgruntled players, some pretty useless skills and a continual weakening of abilities. Just my opinion though. I agree with the OPs outlook in general, that change is good. I just disagree with a matter of fact statement that nerfs in and of themselves, by themselves, are good.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

14 Nov 2007 at 16:14 - 24

Im just reiterating Aera Lure, but whatever.

Nerfs = Suck
Buff = Suck
Balance Adjustment = Good

The way Anet has handled balance in general is to weaken the prevalent strong skills in Meta, and buff a few skills that will later become the new meta, and need nerfing again.

You come up with a cycle of builds that isn't at all naturally evolving and reacting dynamically, but rather artificially controlled by Anet.

The IDEAL situation, is that overly powerful skills become adjusted, so that its in line with the rest of the skill lines, and theres many alternative skills and players have a huge variety to choose from. But i really doubt thats gonna happen.

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

14 Nov 2007 at 16:23 - 25

Nerfs are a necessity, neither bad nor good.

The very same can be said for buffs and for any change to the game that introduces some new factor, ie PvE skills/consumables/elite zones.

People are far to often trying to put blame or insults on PvP or PvE players due to some change in the game.

The simple truth of the matter is that PvP and PvE are two very different games. In PvE your foe is static, never changing and the goal is for the player to find new and fun ways to defeat that same foe over and over again.

In PvP your foe is constantly changing and your goal is to find a constant means of dealing with a variable foe that never does the same thing twice. In a sense PvP players want to be that monster that keeps crushing the varied player builds sent at them.

There are exceptions to these, people that run the same build over and over in PvE and those in PvP that change builds and proff for almost every battle.

Only a very small minority from all groups come to these forums to complain about a nerf. For the most part people see the change, try the skill then either keep it or swap it for some other skill.

FYI - I am one of those few PvE players that gets a little over attached to certain skills and whines a bit when it gets nerfed. I still tear up a bit when scrolling past my War/Ranger templates and see Feral Aggression in my skill bar.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Nov 2007 at 16:23 - 26

Ja nerfs are good.

undeadgun

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

US

Its Rainning Fame Hallelujah[伞回伞], also as guild leader

N/

14 Nov 2007 at 16:44 - 27

this is last friday

this is yesterday

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

14 Nov 2007 at 16:47 - 28

Theoretical idea of nerfs being good for game is kinda good.

However practical implementation is usually lacking. It kinda should not feel like "wtf, do they have no idea that XYZ is used in ABC context"

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

14 Nov 2007 at 16:57 - 29

Nerfs are only good if they guarantee balance + variety.

The total destruction of a skill and/or a build is an inherently bad thing!

While balance still has not been achieved, more and more skills get neutered, while a new gimmick arises, leading to further nerfs and re-balancings.

Constant rebalancing is often just annoying, not the way to make people continue playing GW by changing skills and builds around. This makes me always wonder if it is really cool to poke a game in its final stage of development.

mafia cyborg

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

14 Nov 2007 at 17:27 - 30

/agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

14 Nov 2007 at 17:28 - 31

Another PvE player who agrees with the OP here, but then I like games that make you think.

Karia Mirniman

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

14 Nov 2007 at 17:32 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by undeadgun

this is last friday

this is yesterday

me:

my message to A-net: Leave my game alone.

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

14 Nov 2007 at 17:33 - 33

Nerfs are good.

At the very least, the crying that fills up Riverside brightens my day.

SaucE

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

OgreSlayingKnife.com

[MEEP] Biscuit of Dewm

N/

14 Nov 2007 at 17:34 - 34

I can't believe I am going to says this....

/agree with Yanman.

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

14 Nov 2007 at 17:35 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Nerfs are good.

At the very least, the crying that fills up Riverside brightens my day.

I need to learn to derive amusement, rather than a catastrophically depressed outlook on the future of humanity, from all the bratty whining that goes on on internet gaming boards. Any tips?

PureEvilYak

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Somewhere Luxon Alignment: Chaos

The Dark Fortress

R/

14 Nov 2007 at 17:37 - 36

I'm inclined to agree today, as ranger got a nice little buff

I'm always annoyed when theres a nerf I don't like, but I can see why its necessary.
However, while I can see Izzy's point that small changes are easier to track, I would love to see them, in Ensign's words, "shake it all up" once in a while. As with these small updates, people generally adapt pretty quickly, so its not really a new game every now and then.

Plus, I would like to see PvP and PvE balancing separated. Each has a negative impact on the other. However, we're unlikely to see that. *crosses fingers for gw2*

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

14 Nov 2007 at 17:37 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

I need to learn to derive amusement, rather than a catastrophically depressed outlook on the future of humanity, from all the bratty whining that goes on on internet gaming boards. Any tips?

Humanity is doomed. Accept this. Accept that there is nothing you can do about it.
When you realise that everything that you'll ever manage to accomplish is nothing more than a mote of dust in the grand scheme of eternal failure, then you can learn to truly enjoy life. Starting with laughing at the QQing in Riverside

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

14 Nov 2007 at 17:38 - 38

nerfs/buffs/balancing is all good in my book.

sure i don't like it when a build or two i make get hit due to some FotM builds but it forces me to think of new syngergies and builds which is fun =)

plus i get to laugh at those uncapable of original thought that whine about the nerfs.

although some are very questionable, ie pets not leaving corpses, alas the b/p team will have to change, i'll get over it.

DDL

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Nov 2007 at 17:44 - 39

Is anyone else concerned with the rapidity these changes have been implemented?

As in, we had a whole bunch of changes just last week: you'd think it'd be wise to spend more than a week evaluating the relative success of such changes before muddying the waters with yet another batch of changes, right?

I mean, if I'm running an experiment to discover the effects of varying the concentration of a drug on some laboratory mice, is it wise for me to suddenly add another drug halfway through the trial "so I can check that one, too"?

I worry. :$

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

14 Nov 2007 at 17:46 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again.

Sorry but i lol'ed..