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Originally Posted by Cloud5646
not used anymore? it's on most shadow prison builds when it's not lightining reflexes...
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Nerfs are good.
HawkofStorms
jelmew
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
I'll keep it short.
Nerfs are good. They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad? I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so. They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad? Flame me. Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again. |
Navaros
Nerfs don't "renew" the game, nerfs ruin the game.
If a game is inherently interesting in the first place, then it would not require having the rules drastically changed from one week to the next to "keep it interesting". If nerfs are "required" to keep GW "interesting", then that only speaks to fundamentally uninteresting core game mechanics that should be improved. Nerfing never improves anything.
If a game is inherently interesting in the first place, then it would not require having the rules drastically changed from one week to the next to "keep it interesting". If nerfs are "required" to keep GW "interesting", then that only speaks to fundamentally uninteresting core game mechanics that should be improved. Nerfing never improves anything.
Earth
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Originally Posted by Navaros
Nerfs don't "renew" the game, nerfs ruin the game.
If a game is inherently interesting in the first place, then it would not require having the rules drastically changed from one week to the next to "keep it interesting". If nerfs are "required" to keep GW "interesting", then that only speaks to fundamentally uninteresting core game mechanics that should be improved. Nerfing never improves anything. |
Gigashadow
I don't mind nerfs. This isn't an mmo where you play only one character, invest 100 days of gear in it, and then it gets nerfed into the ground, leaving you with nothing.
As far as PvP goes, my opponents are in exactly the same situation, so I am no worse off. It would only be a problem if I played only one class and was totally attached to one skill bar, but neither of those things are true.
As far as PvP goes, my opponents are in exactly the same situation, so I am no worse off. It would only be a problem if I played only one class and was totally attached to one skill bar, but neither of those things are true.
wsmcasey
I dont like it, but I'll learn to adapt in some way. I was just starting to enjoy my assasin. 
I can kinda relate this to having a good stiff drink vs. a watered down drink. The watered down drink might quench my thirst, but it wont make me drunk and it's nothing to write home about. Come on Anet, make me drunk with excitement! Make some better decisions on skill updates that dont screw up over half my assasin builds! Pretty please?
I can kinda relate this to having a good stiff drink vs. a watered down drink. The watered down drink might quench my thirst, but it wont make me drunk and it's nothing to write home about. Come on Anet, make me drunk with excitement! Make some better decisions on skill updates that dont screw up over half my assasin builds! Pretty please?
Yanman.be
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Originally Posted by Burning Blade
New items, new quests, new areas
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New quests? PvE
New areas? PvE
Skill balances is at least something the entire family can enjoy. ( That means both PvE and PvP )
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by X Earth X
It improved HB, amirite?
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Omniclasm
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Originally Posted by X Earth X
It improved HB, amirite?
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ensoriki
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
New items? PvE
New quests? PvE New areas? PvE Skill balances is at least something the entire family can enjoy. ( That means both PvE and PvP ) |
New items works for PvP as well.
New quests however does not.
So 2/3 works both ways. 1 does not. However that 1 is something pvp would not be interested in anyways,
kilkelo
/agreed
Sure it does! It brings drama! And we all know how much Guru goers love flaming ANet! 
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Originally Posted by Glider of chaos
Nerfs are not fun. While being necessary and even unavoidable sometimes, they don't bring anything new to the game.
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Bankai
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
New areas can work for Pvp as, well (PVP accessible areas...new pvp maps)
New items works for PvP as well. New quests however does not. So 2/3 works both ways. 1 does not. However that 1 is something pvp would not be interested in anyways, |
New items don't work for PvP, because all new items are new skins, and we don't give a shit about skins.
Also, skill balances don't ruin the fun. The guy who said that was posting that under the false assumption that if the game is fun once, it's always fun. Over time, people will always find better builds to improve. If you look at the beginning of the game and just before factions was released, entirely different skill were run: the longer people play, the better they grasp the current metagame, and what skills could be used better. It took a long time before people started using LoD, for example. Metagames always change a lot when they're first created (and they're usually created by skill balances), but after some time, they'll always stay the same: people have found the optimal build, and there's no reason not to run it.
Burning Blade
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
New items? PvE
New quests? PvE New areas? PvE Skill balances is at least something the entire family can enjoy. (That means both PvE and PvP) |
So it is sad that you are willing to enjoy game updates in the form of constant nerfs.
I agree that skill balance is needed but buffing one through the roof or nerfing other to oblivion is bad. And game updates/renewing/refreshing should come in the form of new contents, not NERF.
Glider of chaos
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Originally Posted by kilkelo
Sure it does! It brings drama! And we all know how much Guru goers love flaming ANet!
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ensoriki
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Originally Posted by Bankai
New areas don't work for PvP, since you don't play PvP in PvE.
New items don't work for PvP, because all new items are new skins, and we don't give a shit about skins. Also, skill balances don't ruin the fun. The guy who said that was posting that under the false assumption that if the game is fun once, it's always fun. Over time, people will always find better builds to improve. If you look at the beginning of the game and just before factions was released, entirely different skill were run: the longer people play, the better they grasp the current metagame, and what skills could be used better. It took a long time before people started using LoD, for example. Metagames always change a lot when they're first created (and they're usually created by skill balances), but after some time, they'll always stay the same: people have found the optimal build, and there's no reason not to run it. |
You can have new PVP areas as well did you know that? New maps/ new forms of pvp, you know we can get that right? A-net chooses not to, because they rather not work on that and instead do other things. What they are doing I have no information on and thus I will not say anything more about that.
You can get New items that are not just reskins, the -50 hp off hand proves this, there were also other unique items like the -50 hp off hand but some of them were removed and have become rare. Just because a-net chooses not to, doesn't mean its not possible.
Also whether or not you "Give a shit" about reskins is not the point, it is accessible to PvP through use of storage/trade/buying and so the point stands.
Thus I am still correct and your statements however, Are false.
Insert 25 cents to try again.
The guy above did not say skill balances did not ruin the fun, but that nerfs ruin the fun. It is his opinion whether or not nerf's make the game fun for him or not. You can generally only speak of what a fun game is in your opinion.
Personally I quit GW do to stale game and would check Guru every week to see if a new skill balance had come. 1 of the most fun times I had in Guild wars were doing the large skill balances at the beginning of this year. The skill balances we could input our opinions. I had lots of fun testing all the new things I could do, and I wish that would happen again.
End.
Bankai
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Its sad you choose not to comprehend the post.
You can have new PVP areas as well did you know that? New maps/ new forms of pvp, you know we can get that right? A-net chooses not to, because they rather not work on that and instead do other things. What they are doing I have no information on and thus I will not say anything more about that. You can get New items that are not just reskins, the -50 hp off hand proves this, there were also other unique items like the -50 hp off hand but some of them were removed and have become rare. Just because a-net chooses not to, doesn't mean its not possible. Also whether or not you "Give a shit" about reskins is not the point, it is accessible to PvP through use of storage/trade/buying and so the point stands. Thus I am still correct and your statements however, Are false. Insert 25 cents to try again. The guy above did not say skill balances did not ruin the fun, but that nerfs ruin the fun. It is his opinion whether or not nerf's make the game fun for him or not. You can generally only speak of what a fun game is in your opinion. Personally I quit GW do to stale game and would check Guru every week to see if a new skill balance had come. 1 of the most fun times I had in Guild wars were doing the large skill balances at the beginning of this year. The skill balances we could input our opinions. I had lots of fun testing all the new things I could do, and I wish that would happen again. End. |
Second of all, all new areas added to pvp are complete shit. Wurm is dumb with the health shrine and the way archers behaved on that map for ages, corrupted is gay because of splits, Uncharted is dumb with the flag stand not in the main fighting area.
Third of all, there haven't been any unique items like the -50 offhand since prophecies. All new items are always the same stale items with the same upgrades. That's not a bad thing. Not at all. However, in general, pvpers don't really care about skins. I just use them because I have to spend my reward points on something.
Dan0xxx
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
I'll keep it short.
Nerfs are good. They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad? I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so. They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad? Flame me. Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again. |
Cargan
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
I'll keep it short.
Nerfs are good. They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad? I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so. They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad? Flame me. Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again. |
I'm going to avoid reading the rest of the thread with people with their negative attitudes.Of course there are some nerfs I hate, but that doesn't last long and I deal with it and keep on playing and adapting. nerfs/changes are what keeps the game from going stale. If nothing changes then you get no reason to change build. If you've no reason to change build then you play the same one again and again. If you do the same thing again and again you get bored. If you get bored you stop playing.
ensoriki
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Originally Posted by Bankai
First of all, nerfs and skill balances are the same in my opinion. I use them interchangably. Also, you can still input your opinions.
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I did not say do not input your opinions, I said generally people can only speak about what makes a game fun from opinions.
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| Second of all, all new areas added to pvp are complete shit. Wurm is dumb with the health shrine and the way archers behaved on that map for ages, corrupted is gay because of splits, Uncharted is dumb with the flag stand not in the main fighting area. |
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Third of all, there haven't been any unique items like the -50 offhand since prophecies. All new items are always the same stale items with the same upgrades. That's not a bad thing. Not at all. However, in general, pvpers don't really care about skins. I just use them because I have to spend my reward points on something. |
Thus you still have to Try again.
It will require another 25 cents.
Cargan
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Originally Posted by Dan0xxx
In some ways i agree with you, but i personally think that 'nerfs' are not good. They destroy farming, which once you have completed the game is pretty much all there is to do
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Cargan
ensoriki
Theres more to the game than farming.
Just because you have finished the campaign does not mean you have finished the game.
If you have not done all the quests, and gotten perfect on all the missions. Then there is true reason to say much.
In many console games people finish the main game but they want to get 100%
If you have not done the above, you have not gotten 100%
There is also the fact that you can move into PvP once you have done the above, or gaining titles.
Farming is not all you have to do and thus >.> Mentioning it as all there is = failure.
Just because you have finished the campaign does not mean you have finished the game.
If you have not done all the quests, and gotten perfect on all the missions. Then there is true reason to say much.
In many console games people finish the main game but they want to get 100%
If you have not done the above, you have not gotten 100%
There is also the fact that you can move into PvP once you have done the above, or gaining titles.
Farming is not all you have to do and thus >.> Mentioning it as all there is = failure.
creelie
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Originally Posted by Spike
If you need an example of how bad nerfs can be. See what happend to Star Wars galaxies. They turned it from the best MMO ever in to a laughing stock. The same is slowly happening to this game too.
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GW nerfs make easy things harder, making the game more interesting. Sure, they're annoying, but they also revive gameplay.
CyberNigma
buffs can be good as well.
Haskell
Nerfs are never good. Buffs are worse.
Orinn
I admit bias here in that I am almost always opposed to nerfs and almost always in favor of buffs. However, I also agree that there are times when a certain skill is so far out of line that bringing others up to its level of effectiveness is overkill. Then, a nerf is called for. Nerfs which enable buffs are also agreeable to me. With spirits being removed from SR's effects, the stage is set for ANet to remove the kludgy timer that has been an annoyance for months.
Nerfs are good when there is a purpose to them. Buffs are good when they are part of an overall balance. Change for the sake of change is not good, nor desirable. Change to increase variety and options is a good thing, but many specific nerfs simply limit play, without creating any new options.
I think Aera Lure has pretty much said everything that I've been thinking the last few days, in this post and the others she has made.
Nerfs are good when there is a purpose to them. Buffs are good when they are part of an overall balance. Change for the sake of change is not good, nor desirable. Change to increase variety and options is a good thing, but many specific nerfs simply limit play, without creating any new options.
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Originally Posted by Aera Lure
Nerfs are generally bad. They're generally a negative change, a weakening of some mechanic and usually reducing in some capacity the options that you have with a particular combination.
What is good is balance. Some nerfs with some buffs. That better creates the need and ability to rifle through skills and find previously unused or out of favor combinations. Too often this game simply falls back on nerfs to knock a certain meta off track without actually really balancing. The end result has been disgruntled players, some pretty useless skills and a continual weakening of abilities. Just my opinion though. I agree with the OPs outlook in general, that change is good. I just disagree with a matter of fact statement that nerfs in and of themselves, by themselves, are good. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Its sad you choose not to comprehend the post.
You can have new PVP areas as well did you know that? New maps/ new forms of pvp, you know we can get that right? A-net chooses not to, because they rather not work on that and instead do other things. What they are doing I have no information on and thus I will not say anything more about that. |
X Cytherea X
@OP: i admire your positive attitude, Yanman.
similarly, i'm sticking with my assassin no matter how "nerfed" she gets. time to find the next best thing.
you dont simply discard someone you've grown so attached to for nearly 2 years just cuz she isnt what she used to be. you can do that to women, but not to your favorite class in the game, hell no.
similarly, i'm sticking with my assassin no matter how "nerfed" she gets. time to find the next best thing.
you dont simply discard someone you've grown so attached to for nearly 2 years just cuz she isnt what she used to be. you can do that to women, but not to your favorite class in the game, hell no.
ensoriki
Whos leaving the assassin do to nerfs?
No1 I bet >.>
Problem is were just currently sad pandas do to losing horns T_T
No1 I bet >.>
Problem is were just currently sad pandas do to losing horns T_T
Bankai
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| Nerfs are generally bad. They're generally a negative change, a weakening of some mechanic and usually reducing in some capacity the options that you have with a particular combination. |
This is true in a lot of cases. Nerfing something often opens up more skills.
Also, ensoriki, I have no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing clue what you said about items in response to my post. Also, please stop mentioning sins in every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thing you post.
ensoriki
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Originally Posted by Bankai
Usually, nerfs actually open up more options. Whenever you put something on a character, you think, "Is this as good as the meta?". You can run decapitate or cleave on your axe warrior, is this as good as the meta? No, eviscerate is better in every way. Therefore, as long as eviscerate excists, there's no reason at all to run the other two, unless you want to handicap yourself.
This is true in a lot of cases. Nerfing something often opens up more skills. Also, ensoriki, I have no 'ing clue what you said about items in response to my post. Also, please stop mentioning sins in every Read carefully, there not in all my posts. Stop whining. thing you post. |
You said PvP cannot enjoy that because there all reskins and so "pvp does not give a shit". New items can be accessible to PvP regardless, and is still something members of PvP will enjoy.
The swearing just makes what you say so much more important.
wilebill
I agree with you Glider, no flames from me. And I will not put snow on your bell.
Drakken Breathes Fire
I agree with you, and that masculine daisy over your shoulder there, 'best assassin.' (I'm actually being serious about everything but the daisy.)
I've never found any of the nerfs to SR crippling in the least, nor pet corpses being removed. (I might be wrong but they couldn't be brought back by normal res skills outside the beast mastery tree, so why is a corpse necessary for anything but exploiting? Even so, what's one less dead body going to matter?)
I've never found any of the nerfs to SR crippling in the least, nor pet corpses being removed. (I might be wrong but they couldn't be brought back by normal res skills outside the beast mastery tree, so why is a corpse necessary for anything but exploiting? Even so, what's one less dead body going to matter?)
Crom The Pale
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Originally Posted by Avarre
You should know by now that the new maps and classes added to Guild Wars only caused havoc and imbalance in PvP for the most part. The reason nerfs are constantly needed is due to the ridiculous number of new skills added and possible combinations that are capable of abuse.
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Funny I just quoted you in another thread agreeing with you, now here I am totaly dissagreeing with you, huh....
New maps did not cause imbalance in PvP, they cause some confusion and some people just didnt like them.
New proffesions brought new options to players, they did not cause havoc.
The abuse of skills is not possible, its just that players found a creative way of using the skills that the creators did not take the time to figure out before they added the skill to the game.
Adding things to PvP is not a problem, the problem lies with Anet not taking the time to fully test and think through all the additions before hand.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
New maps did not cause imbalance in PvP, they cause some confusion and some people just didnt like them.
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| New proffesions brought new options to players, they did not cause havoc. |
Blackhawk
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Funny I just quoted you in another thread agreeing with you, now here I am totaly dissagreeing with you, huh....
New maps did not cause imbalance in PvP, they cause some confusion and some people just didnt like them. New proffesions brought new options to players, they did not cause havoc. The abuse of skills is not possible, its just that players found a creative way of using the skills that the creators did not take the time to figure out before they added the skill to the game. Adding things to PvP is not a problem, the problem lies with Anet not taking the time to fully test and think through all the additions before hand. |
Sab
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
New maps did not cause imbalance in PvP, they cause some confusion and some people just didnt like them.
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
New proffesions brought new options to players, they did not cause havoc.
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
The abuse of skills is not possible, its just that players found a creative way of using the skills that the creators did not take the time to figure out before they added the skill to the game.
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Adding things to PvP is not a problem, the problem lies with Anet not taking the time to fully test and think through all the additions before hand.
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Blackhawk
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Originally Posted by Sab
It's simply not possible for them to test and balance everything before releasing them. It often takes us, the hundreds of thousands of players, weeks if not months to figure out the broken skills and the broken synergies. Don't expect a small team playing in an isolated environment to catch all the problems, regardless of how obvious it may be in hindsight.
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If the dev team couldn't spot what a N/Rt Spirit Spammer was capable of then they're in the wrong job.
Bankai
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk
Rubbish, most broken stuff is figured out in a matter of hours by the players.
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Sab
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk
Rubbish, most broken stuff is figured out in a matter of hours by the players.
If the dev team couldn't spot what a N/Rt Spirit Spammer was capable of then they're in the wrong job. |
Symeon
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk
Rubbish, most broken stuff is figured out in a matter of hours by the players.
If the dev team couldn't spot what a N/Rt Spirit Spammer was capable of then they're in the wrong job. |
Sure, people can see what skills/builds are to become more powerful just by looking at the update notes. But deciding what is the most powerful, finding the best synergies within a team, and developing effective counters to powerful builds or synergies, take much longer.