Nerfs are good.

No, but it's fun. Hell, I miss the old days where they'd change half the skills in the game every update.

it seems to me like the more (dare i say it) wise/better gamers understand and appreciate the nerfs for what they do and why they are implemented, compared to the people who are completely one-sided anti-nerf.

Aye I think nerfs are alright until PvP abuses something like EW and Anet decides to nerf it not once but twice in the same week. After the first nerf I could still solo trap UW. After this second one, I'm not so sure I want to even try 30ish seconds now? Just another case of PvP and PvE conflicting.

This I accept as an axiom. Still doesnt change the fact that Anet's approach to balancing by identifying the current meta and simply nerfing several key components of it is actually not a good thing. Really, it just supports the aforementioned axiom.

We wont ever see actual balancing. I've let go of that. Would be nice though to look at an attribute line and have more than a couple viable elites. Current philosophy just promotes the rise to the fore of a new set of skills primed for the nerf bat. I'd much rather see more variety encouraged than simply whacking a few more skills/builds out of the mix.

Quoted for Truth

There are to many skills that pale to others, and wich are in need of serious buffing..

some nerfs can be good imo, but others just make no sense or are a poor implementation to fix a problem

a-net needs to put more tought on the balances, wich clearly izzy cannot achieve

Since NF there have been enough underpowered skills leftover from proph/factions they really should be focused on giving those a little more impact first. How many skills aren't being used because they are junk compared to what else is out there.

Shadow Prison is not the only build that uses those skills, they messed up alot of builds that weren't OP as well... that sucks.
Why not to just nerf tiger's stance ffs........

My message to you: It's not "your game".

If you want to be able to control every facet of the game, stop playing online games.

I can't imagine what happens when you visit a news site and see what's happening in the real world if something so minor as video game nerds complaining depresses you. o_0

i find it amusing how yanman declares himself the best assasin.

Too many. Changing junk skills to a-ok skills would certainly create some diversity and originality... But how many times have people said "do something with [insert skill like Wastrel's Collapse here] because it's useless" and AN did nothing?

Lol at the selfishness. Last time I checked, it's OUR game.

Nerfs are good, nerfs without compensation are not. The LoD nerf was a good nerf; it was ruling 8-man PvP and Izzy compensated for its loss.

It's hard enough already for sins to do their job (which is to consistently kill other players), and now they're pretty much terrible at it because there were no buffs to compensate the destruction of basically all hex builds and then some.
To be honest, the concept of devoting a character slot to consistently kill other players is broken. For them to be useful, the recharge on their spike has to be relatively low, and their damage has to be enough to consistently kill or severely weaken enough for the target to die soon after due to pressure or degen.
In essence, their balance between effective and overpowered is a very very fine line. When they get a good build, players who don't understand that just cry about it until it gets nerfed. It's an endless cycle that I don't see ending unless Assassins are significantly changed or removed in GW2. :l

A shame, because they could be a very skillbased class if Izzy fixed it right. I'm not even sure he knows how to nerf SP, he might be just punching skills on the bar until people stop using it.

I suggest you have a look at the current assassin nerf. You'll be surprised but there's not a single buff floating around here...

It isn't. However, nerfs should be as incremental as possible, and it doesn't generally happen that way.

It's fine to kill things dead that are overpowered to the point of being broken. Fast Cast Air Spike broke Air Magic in that it put out more spike damage than heals could eventually keep up with; it needed to be killed, and the dev team did just that by restructuring Elemental Attunement such that the build no longer worked. Similar situation with Blinding Surge Mesmers; upping the casting cost of Blinding Surge to 10 instantly made them no longer viable, but that was fine since a Mesmer shouldn't be that efficient at Warrior hate and still able to do all the other things a Mesmer can do.

However, not all things that are overpowered are game-breaking, and one simply cannot nerf overpowered skills in the same manner as one nerfs broken ones. A harsh nerf is appropriate on a broken skill in order to ensure that the nerf works; on a skill that is widely used because it is too efficient, all one needs to do in order to fix it is strip the skill of some of its efficiency, while permitting the skill to do the same job it did previously (just not as well).

The Eviscerate nerf (7 adren to 8) is an excellent example of how to nerf overpowered skills. Eviscerate gets used because it's an extremely efficient way of solving a problem (spike damage); by increasing the adrenaline needed to use it, ANet simply decreased its damage over time and thus its efficiency.

This is how you should nerf, except in the most extreme cases.


Izzy violated the above principles in the last week on several levels. A Monk elite with a two second casting time had better resurrect a player permanently or be in the Smiting Prayers line (EDIT: or be a maintained enchant); it's the only way such a cast time on a Monk elite can be justified.

The Black Lotus Strike nerf is ridiculous; if the problem is that the two-offhand, two-dual mechanic is overpowered, why wasn't it overpowered in the Factions meta? Fix the real problem, which is the recharge times on the Hex chains and their synergy with cheap hexes such as Siphon Speed that enable the frequent spikes. Put another way, the problem isn't the ability of the sins to put out these spikes - it's the FREQUENCY with which they can do so coupled with the level of damage such spikes put out. Cut the number of times the sin can spike per minute or cut the damage spike such that the sin needs assistance from another player to kill, and you solve the problem without invalidating the skill or removing the build from the meta entirely.

The Impale nerf is silly; it doesn't address the real problem, which is landing 160-180 damage on the back end of a typical huge damage Assassin chain.

Cutting the damage on Horns and Trampling is more in line with what I would prefer to see, but there were better ways. Fewer spikes per minute would cut the overall threat potential rather than cutting the spike potential.


If the objective is "maximize build diversity", this isn't how you do it. All this sort of nerf does is virtually ensure that some new unbalanced build will emerge and define the environment around it. This isn't what most players want; they'd prefer to see older builds remain viable, but see their power equated such that new builds also emerge to challenge the old ones and possibly force some of them into disuse.

Nerfing too hard replaces natural evolution processes with drastic upheavals; in the case of drastic upheavals, you're likely to see the simplest and most boring builds (zergway, spikes) come out of the woodwork first, which isn't a good thing either.

Nerfing, like most things, has it place. I agree with the OP that it does keep things interesting. I understand that most skill changes are done with pvp in mind, and as a pve-er I'm ok with this. (Holler all you want, it aint gonna change my thoughts). Sometimes it pisses me off and sometimes I don't agree. I'll admit that there have been times I've even whined about it because I was really enjoying my build. However, I also realize that without change (sometimes forced through nerfs) the game becomes stagnant. It's no longer about skill at that point, its one gimmick against another and thats just not fun. Quite frankly its boring, even from an observer's point of view. (I know watching the same LoD infuse build in 90% of battles put me to sleep on more than on occassion). I think things needed a good shaking up.

I also agree with people stating that things need to be balanced, and sometimes reducing things is the way to do that, sometimes buffing other things works just as well; however, you have to keep in mind that although the people that change the skills play the game and listen to our suggestions, they aren't gods. They aren't going to get the changes right the first time, possibly not even the second (and maybe even never). It requires you to adapt, and give them feedback they can use to help them get it right. Of course, you also have to keep in mind, in the end its their call as to final skill stats, not yours. That's what they're paid for. Be happy that they allow you to present feedback and even take some of it into consideration before finalizing changes.

/ agree

Honestly if they didn’t stir the pot now and then it would get stagnate. If it was that bad of a nerf I just move to a different class for awhile Or Pull up Wiki and start brain storming

You shouldn't generalize all pve players as whiners and non adapters. I am sure some would say the same about pvp players. Some people just get too set in the way they play and if it changes they just whine instead of trying to come up with a new better build. The vast majority of gw players don't even read or post to any forums, so we who do are the most vocal only and do not represent all gw players. Change is good, it makes you rethink how to play the game.

Can I devote my life to you?

You just made my day with the OP.

They already did. TS used to last like twice as long on sins and was used non stop in HA. Since it was nerfed, nobody seriously used it anymore.

And then if TS is nerfed like BoA, it'll just be flurry / frenzy. IAS is not the problem (i wasn't aiming this at you, only quoting and expanding).

you're still ugly, yanman, but i agree

Nerfs are bad depending on where the skills position is.

Nerfs are good depending on where the skills position is.

A balanced skill should not be nerfed, unless the game is currently balanced in such a way that doing so refreshes the game.

A bad imbalanced skill should be nerfed so that it refreshes the game.



Yan >.> .....
hee hee
*equips flame shield*
IM A BETTER SIN BUILDER THAN YOU =P
....guys don't ruin my fun.

I usually understand the nerfs and can adapt my playing + find new builds. My only gripe is that there are a shitload of unused, mediocre skills that could use a buff, be it in PvP or PvE environment. Usually when they buff along with nerfs, they don't buff enough or they overbuff - and have to nerf later.

Skillbars are so compressed with 8 skills already that players don't usually want mediocre skills, so buff more of these unused skills and do it properly, so that we might think "Hey, that could be an alternative on my bar" instead of "Hey, looks like they buffed Ebon Hawk... well, it's still crap".

I've been fine with every nerf in the history of this game (been playing since the beginning), with only one exception: the LoD nerf last week.
That nerf was entirely unique and different than any other nerf before it due to the complete lack of even remotely viable substitutes (functionally speaking).
Save for that one exception, I agree with the OP.

I dont mind the skill balances -----its when they do stupid things that annoys me. (I wont give examples, but I am sure there are some ).

Most of the skills that get 'balanced' I rarely use anyways....I have never been one to even use a cookie cuter build (if I even ever looked to find out whats on those ---).....so its not a real biggie to me.

Things change, sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad.....being able to deal with the changes is what life is all about.....now I must go and put the snow tires on my car.

I prefer balance over nerfs tbh. Some things need to be toned down but many nerfs go over the top, completely removing skills from viable play. That makes the game boring and frustrating, especially to casual players who are oblivious to why their favorite skills/build/profession fall victim, constantly.

I think you would have been better off not copying every other sin's build out there, and could completely avoid the nerf in that way.

You talkin' to me? Yes, you! You talkin' to me buddy? I was sure you were talking to me....what are you trying to say?

Why does ANet have to give you an alternative? Is it so bad that you can't come up with a single other build to 'compensate' you for 'your' playstyle? You're not being forced to play in any kind of way. Your choices are: adjust to the change to the one build you so vehemently defend as the answer to your Guild Wars life...or go through the hundreds of other skills to build a different (and probably better) build. I fail to see how this is a forced mechanic. Now if they changed the skill, and told you you may never remove it from your bar...I might have some sympathy for you.

And by the way, I fully support yanman's courage to start a positive topic about the recent changes, as I've always, since April 2005, adapted and adjusted to every skill change ever thrown at me. And the darn game is still fun!

There's plenty of skills you can use that every other person isn't using. In this way, your bar will be unexpected and not as easily countered, and you will also avoid your build being nerfed. Whether YOU specifically were the average Shadow Prison nublet or not, it can be directed at the community who PvPs with all the flavor of the month builds. Stop using the build everyone else is using and you will do better, assuming you can make a competent build.

EDIT: Ugh, what she said. *points up*

Qualitatively saying nerfs are good is like saying glass is half empty. You're basically saying its fine because there is still water left and you wont go thirsty. The thing is, nerfs are really only good in the context of larger skill balancing, wherein we might actually see more skill and build variation. Anet's approach to identify a given meta and nerf it is the least desirable option and it should not be supported, as it only encourages the rise of another meta and another round of nerfs, continuing a downward spiral, limiting variety.

Now I'm not saying its not good to be able to adapt. Of course it is. I am simply lamenting what I see as a pretty poor way of trying to balance the game - looking every month or two to find the dominating meta and beating it down.

there are some skills that can only exist in two forms: marginally good, in which case nobody will use them. or, extremely good, in which case it's broken and everyone's forced to run it to stay competitive.

with those skills, the only balancing that can be done is to nerf them. unfortunately, many of those skills happen to be assassin skills. the class itself is bad from the beginning. an entire profession, based on blowing people up in seconds, with the ability to completely ignore fundamental game mechanics (positioning, movement control, etc)? sounds pretty bad to me.

like bad skills, the assassin can also only exist in two forms: marginally effective, in which case nobody will use them. or extremely powerful, in which case everyone will either have to play them or bring specific counters to contain them. personally, i prefer the former option.

I disagree with the OP for one reason:

Skill Balances are good, nerfs and buffs alike. If it were only nerfs, we'd be left with week-long PvP matches and year-long PvE missions as no one would be doing any damage or healing. So... yeah.

Meh, I don't really care that much about nerfs/buffs, I whinge a little about it and then I get on with playing the game - adjust as I go.

Mind you the pet-corpse thing today is just plain odd...

But I'm sure I'll get used to it in time.

If they nerf healing, how is stuff going to stay alive?

If they nerf damage-dealing, too, how are things going to die? Do you see where I'm going with this?

The magic of HAX.

I'm guessing because GW has become a single player COORPG/MMORPG, people have started to relate GW to RPGs, in which every part of the game is static and nothing changes.

Let's say there are 4 attribute lines:

Healing A = 10
Healing B = 10
Damage X =10
Damage Z =11


Z does more damage, so they nerf it: Z=10.
Does it matter now if A B X Z are nerfed to 9? or 4?

You could also go A=20 B=10 X=20 Z=10. Perfectly balanced, but everyone will be using A and X. In order to get more variety, they'll put everything on 10, rather than 20. Lowering stats is better than raising it. Why? That's another story.

I would agree with this yes BUT, PvPers are just as bad if not worse.