Remove the Timer from Soul Reaping - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

15 Nov 2007 at 06:23 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by fntmx1

They lack hindsight, and it is that which will drive their company to the ground in a few years. Here's what I mean: look at all these PvE skills. Look at all the PvE content. From conception, to development, to release, PvE is their main focus. But what happens in the maintenance portion of the game? It's primarily PvP driven. Few of the changes made has had PvE in mind.
(...)
Perhaps by the time Guild Wars 2 hits the shelves, A-Net will realize their grave error. They'll wish they can change things like they can now, but by then it will be too late.

Exactly my thoughts.
But it worked so far, right? Izzy once said, it is very hard to break PvE, usually as an excuse to solely focus on PvP balance again.

The funny thing is, it does not seem that enough PvE gamers slit their wrists and quit after skill changes to change ANet's practice of skill balancing. So they are confirmed they can go on like that (but I fear they might kill and doom GW2 with this attitude from the start).

What they also seem to miss is that all their PvP skill balancing does not bring a single new player into PvP or stop them from quitting. Even worse, it does not make any kind of player try out GW or make veterans continue playing. I never bought that crap that buffing this skill and nerfing that skill makes a game gone stale for the gamer suddenly fresh and exciting again.

Soul Reaping is one of the problems. It either does not work at all in PvP, in that case it is one of the most useless attributes, or it works too good, then it is a problem, too. In PvE it is too good, too, but you also cannot remove it as the whole minion master thing and many other necro spells depend on the high energy influx. PvP and PvE just do not go well together.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

15 Nov 2007 at 06:25 - 82

lol, what timer for soul reaping?

sorry, i am not very up to date on nerfs, but my necro is running fine....

jrk247

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Twenty Gold For Mountain Troll [Tusk]

15 Nov 2007 at 06:37 - 83

Wow you shouldn't even go to this thread if you don't know what it's topic is about.

A while back Anet added a 15 second timer to SR where you can only get energy 3 times per 15 seconds. It's not really a big deal but it's kinda pointless to have it and Anet just nerfed SR where you gain no energy from spirits so there's really no reason why they couldn't remove the timer, because the main reason SR got nerfed in the beginning was because of N/Rt's having infinate energy in PvP.

Colva Thrull

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2006

IL

Lords Of Doom

N/Me

15 Nov 2007 at 06:42 - 84

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=57

Here ya go, this is all there is to it.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 06:51 - 85

Be careful what you wish for. Next thing you know, they'll remove the timer and also remove or half energy return from dying Minions.

/signed if it does not touch Minions at all.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

15 Nov 2007 at 07:03 - 86

Hrmz, i say we nerf mesmer fast cast, they are casting too fast in my opinion. :P

seriously, stop messing with necro already.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 07:06 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Exactly my thoughts.
But it worked so far, right? Izzy once said, it is very hard to break PvE, usually as an excuse to solely focus on PvP balance again...

Its true. On a very basic obvious level, we have some professions that is obviously sub-optimal for PvE, and it has not broken PvE.

It sucks to be those people who love thost professions, but we're used to life not being fair.

I've always likened PvE to the real life of GW, and PvP as the sports stadium of GW. Things are really unfair in the real world, but we persist to want a level playing field in sports.

Hollow Gein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Menos Espadas

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 07:30 - 88

/signed

Get rid of the timer. I'm just hoping for GW2 that they keep PvE seperate from PvP.

CHunterX

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Washington

W/E

15 Nov 2007 at 07:31 - 89

/signedRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO

Plague

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/E

15 Nov 2007 at 09:15 - 90

I don't follow the no pet corpse idea. If people are wasting their secondary profession and a skill slot to bring Charm Animal, don't they deserve a corpse? Isn't that part of the game? It's not like pets are worth bringing for any other reason than to have them for IWAY, SR or things like Thumper builds.

If you want to change it around, make it so that pets only leave a corpse once. If they're revived, they don't give SR energy or leave a corpse. Problem fixed.

Abnaxus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Europe

Keepers of Chaos

15 Nov 2007 at 10:13 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

I agree, that would be a small price to pay in exchange for the timer to be removed, and I think pretty much all Necro's would accept that.

Absolutely not, that would kill any sinergy between 2 necros in the team (MM and SS for instance).
I like to run SS and I also take a MM hero.
Such a solution would be worse then the problem.

Maximumraver

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

The Netherlands

Twisted Revenge [TR]

E/

15 Nov 2007 at 10:15 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

/signed

Bury this entire history and remove the Timer.

Nothing to add except:

/signed

elsalamandra

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

15 Nov 2007 at 10:24 - 93

/ signed for the soul reaping erradication of the stupid egg timer dictatorship-style enforecement.

/signed for the pet's corpse mon-exploitation. (ToPK is now just another area)

ANET:

Why make PvE'ers suffer the punsihment when PvPers (no disrespect to the PvPers by the way - good luck to em

) find an exploit.

We are not in school nor in the army FFS where when one does a wrong all get punished.

Friday

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

[DVDF]

15 Nov 2007 at 10:29 - 94

/signed

And to anyone saying that "soul reaping" is too good for PvE - just look at Ursanway and tell me that ANYTHING is too good for PvE... there is no "Balance" in PvE, why should Soul Reaping be "balanced" ffs???

Added: I will tolerate and adapt to skill balancing for PvP because it is important for them (no, I don't do PvP) and that IS an important aspect of the game. BUT I do have a huge disgust for people that get on a soap box about "balancing" the PvE side of the game - go do what ever you want to do ON YOUR OWN SKILLBAR to make the game harder for yourself (how about you just put zero points in SR when you go play) - just leave the rest of us to play the way WE want to play - I don't care how you play your game, just STOP trying to tell ME how to play mine.

Added more:
I do have Ursan Blessing skill available - I have never played with it on my bar since that one quest. Once again - I don't care if other people are rampaging through areas with it, I don't care if people are "requiring" it for PUGS - If THEY want to use a "godmode" skill - bully for them, they are WELCOME TO PLAY THAT WAY, if they want me to use it in a pug - bully for me, I don't join them. It affects no-one but themselves in our instanced GW world - it is as simple as that. As for those anti-ursanway threads - Just STOP telling me how to play my unbalanced PvE game!

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 11:03 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friday

And to anyone saying that "soul reaping" is too good for PvE - just look at Ursanway and tell me that ANYTHING is too good for PvE... there is no "Balance" in PvE, why should Soul Reaping be "balanced" ffs???

ever noticed anti-ursanway-crushade threads? lots of people indeed thing that it is imba in pve context and should be kill-nerfed.

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

15 Nov 2007 at 11:21 - 96

signed /

The only PvE skill that needs neutering is Ursan Blessing and quick.

Zeph

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Wales, UK

Expect Extreme Violence [EEV]

15 Nov 2007 at 11:31 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

It's a terrible game mechanic that was put in place to counter an exploit (Spirits).
Now the exploit has been removed from the game, and so should the terrible game mechanic. It no longer serves a purpose.

Remove the timer and we can finally put the Soul Reaping issue to rest once and for all.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

/signed

narked

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2006

W/E

15 Nov 2007 at 11:35 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

signed /

The only PvE skill that needs neutering is Ursan Blessing and quick.

If Ursan blessing gets a look at, then maybe:
with 16 soul reaping you can keep up Ursan blessing pretty much infinitely as it is. Give people more energy for that?... ummm, not sure on that....

I'll be honest, I havn't found it a struggle to manage energy since the timer introduction

NJudson

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

15 Nov 2007 at 11:51 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friday

/signed

And to anyone saying that "soul reaping" is too good for PvE - just look at Ursanway and tell me that ANYTHING is too good for PvE... there is no "Balance" in PvE, why should Soul Reaping be "balanced" ffs???

Added: I will tolerate and adapt to skill balancing for PvP because it is important for them (no, I don't do PvP) and that IS an important aspect of the game. BUT I do have a huge disgust for people that get on a soap box about "balancing" the PvE side of the game - go do what ever you want to do ON YOUR OWN SKILLBAR to make the game harder for yourself (how about you just put zero points in SR when you go play) - just leave the rest of us to play the way WE want to play - I don't care how you play your game, just STOP trying to tell ME how to play mine.

AMEN to that!!!

/signed....again

Olim Chill

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

USA

DMI

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 12:10 - 100

/signed.

...

Vaal 84

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

UK

R/

15 Nov 2007 at 12:30 - 101

/signed i hardly ever play my necro since this whole mess started.

Friday

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

[DVDF]

15 Nov 2007 at 12:31 - 102

Just edited my previous post to respond to Ursanway.

Necrotic

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

The mists

Co-founder of Knights of the Phoenix

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 13:17 - 103

Whoah! You quoted me.....I'm flattered....and a bit embarassed. Okay maybe not really embarassed but thankyou anyway.

Now for those of you who still don't understand necromancers or their abilities and limitations:

Soul Reaping IS our energy management!!! Maybe some of you have forgotten or you just don't play with your necro enough to actually know this...and believe me...to those of us who have a necro as our primary character...you stick out like a Monk in group of Warriors.

I keep reading about how necros should bring energy management skills like (and I just love this) Signet of Lost Souls. Excellent suggestion....wonderful in fact....unless you don't have the Nightfall campaign.

So tell me....how is a Prophecies necromancer supposed to manage their energy now? Especially with wammos who think they are invincable in the PUG. Heck...sometimes even Guildies can be in a rush and outpace your e regen.

Use Consume Corpse? Okay...yeah so you have one way of getting energy....assuming you are either running a MM build or have enough points to allocate to Death magic. Still...let's consider the newbie Prophecies necro who doesn't yet realize the need for e-management yet finds their blue bar running dry before the whole group of foes has been targeted...let alone killed. Maybe they run a Curses/Blood build to do as much as they can to help kill things faster. Think they are going to have any points left for death, they barely have any for soul reaping. And what about foes who don't leave a corpse?

Add: Remember that in Prophecies you don't get elites until you get to the desert....so many of the truly effectives skills aren't available to the lower level necro to help out with energy cost. Nearly 65% of the game is played with no elites.

Anyway.....in case it wasn't clear....I want Soul Reaping to return to the way it was ...no energy from spirits (it just makes sense...they were already dead) and no timer regulating flow.

~Cin

Frogtree

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

Atlanta, GA

-=XG=-

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 13:24 - 104

/Signed Please remove the timer. It was put in place to stop PVP problems not PVE.

DreamRunner

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

W/

15 Nov 2007 at 14:14 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrotic

Whoah! You quoted me.....I'm flattered....and a bit embarassed. Okay maybe not really embarassed but thankyou anyway.

Now for those of you who still don't understand necromancers or their abilities and limitations:

Soul Reaping IS our energy management!!! Maybe some of you have forgotten or you just don't play with your necro enough to actually know this...and believe me...to those of us who have a necro as our primary character...you stick out like a Monk in group of Warriors.

I keep reading about how necros should bring energy management skills like (and I just love this) Signet of Lost Souls. Excellent suggestion....wonderful in fact....unless you don't have the Nightfall campaign.

So tell me....how is a Prophecies necromancer supposed to manage their energy now? Especially with wammos who think they are invincable in the PUG. Heck...sometimes even Guildies can be in a rush and outpace your e regen.

If you can't get signet of lost souls, why dont you just use glyph of lesser energy?

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

15 Nov 2007 at 14:30 - 106

never had a problem with E management playing necro (when maxing out points in SR)...there IS however a problem in the lack of available skills in the SR line.

the thing being, i would not be maxing out points in SR if energy gain was consistent. I dunno how it is for others but thats my personal take.

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

15 Nov 2007 at 14:45 - 107

Hope it stays, its pretty strong already, i dont really wanna see it go back to being completely overpowered.

Necrotic

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

The mists

Co-founder of Knights of the Phoenix

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 14:48 - 108

Dreamrunner: Yeah....that works as long as you're an Elementalist secondary. The point (that you apparently missed) is that a necro's method of energy management is to make sure things die. When things die...they gain energy to keep killing. Most other caster classes get some skills that gain energy or help maintain it even in Prophecies alone. Core skills.

And just for the record...I started as a N/E and once I got it...I used GoLE...but back then it simply had a time duration of use....which was dependant on your ES attribute level if I remember correctly.

Sleeper Service: Exactly.

cthulhu reborn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

the Netherlands

W/Mo

15 Nov 2007 at 14:57 - 109

I think that people who don't get why people complain about the soul reaping nerfs are missing the point of the complaint.

The complaint, generally, is not that necro's don't get enough energy since the nerf but rather that the way it works now is preposterous.

The idea that you can gain the energy up to 3 times every 15 seconds except it doesn't count when you have full energy is a stupid mechanism.

I agree that the necro didn't need to get as much energy as it did before. But HOW they solved is stupid. Any other primary attribute has a consistent trigger and soul reaping used to aswell. Example: strength adds AP each time an attack skill is used, energy storage gives +3 energy for each point.
Basically you know exactly what is happening and when.
Soul reaping, well you only get it 3 times every 15 secs, you got to keep a timer to that and watch you energy. It is silly.

Limiting the energy output of soul reaping was quickly a non issue...they way they achieved it is still an issue.
I proposed things such as not getting any or very little energy from raised creatures and spirits. I proposed less energy per kill ( example 1point per 3-5 points in soul reaping) or a combination thereof.
Of course I was not the only one proposing these things. Why? Because less energy gain was fine but we just wanted something that has a consistent trigger without timers. That's all.

Corpselooter

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands, Woerden

Glob of Ectospasm [GoE]

R/

15 Nov 2007 at 15:00 - 110

Change it, end of story.

DarkGanni

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Malta

[CuTe]

E/

15 Nov 2007 at 19:09 - 111

Time to remove the timer it only hurts the necros energy management more now that spirits no longer give energy.

/signed

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

15 Nov 2007 at 19:11 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

never had a problem with E management playing necro (when maxing out points in SR)...there IS however a problem in the lack of available skills in the SR line.

the thing being, i would not be maxing out points in SR if energy gain was consistent. I dunno how it is for others but thats my personal take.

Agreed 100% down the line.

Lets Get to Healing

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

You want see?

True Gods of War [True]

Mo/W

15 Nov 2007 at 20:27 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrotic

Use Soul Feast? Okay...yeah so you have one way of getting energy....assuming you are either running a MM build or have enough points to allocate to Death magic. Still...let's consider the newbie Prophecies necro who doesn't yet realize the need for e-management yet finds their blue bar running dry before the whole group of foes has been targeted...let alone killed. any for soul reaping.

Anyone suggesting to use Soul Feast as e managment has never played a Necro: Soul Feast only yields health, I think. Consume Corpse on the other hand . .

??iljo

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

15 Nov 2007 at 20:31 - 114

its was only overpowered for N/Rts...
i didnt see any1 complaining for the first year and a half....

Friday

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

[DVDF]

15 Nov 2007 at 20:36 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Hope it stays, its pretty strong already, i dont really wanna see it go back to being completely overpowered.

Why don't YOU just lower the number of points YOU have in SR when you play if YOU feel YOUR SR is overpowered.

PvE balance CANNOT be taken seriously with the skills now available. Enough already with this thing about PvE attributes and skills being "overpowered".

Burning Blade

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Syag

15 Nov 2007 at 20:44 - 116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I still can't comprehend how @12 soul reaping 36e return every 15seconds isn't good enough. [email protected] that's 27e every 15seconds. You can't find any better e management in the game that uses no skill slots for the reward.

How about changing SR to like you gain 1 million energy every 10 minutes? You will still go on rampage about how greatest SR is? OMG 1 million e every 10 min or 100K e every 1 min, what profession has more than that?!?!

I hope you now see why people hate this timer so much and want it gone.

/Signed to remove the stupid timer.

as many people have already suggested, make it gain less energy like 1e every 2 ranks in SR. This would solve SR issue for good.

Randvek

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Rise From the Ashes [phnx]

W/

15 Nov 2007 at 20:48 - 117

If the no SR with spirits stays in the game, then /signed, remove the timer. Spiritway is dead, so kill the SR timer.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

15 Nov 2007 at 20:53 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by fntmx1

If they had any hindsight of the things to come,...

...wouldn't they be walking backwards, bent over, looking between their legs as they went?

I disagree with a lot of what a-net does, but I'm not sure assuming that particular position would be an improvement. Some foresight, on the other hand...

(^Joke. I agree with your sentiment (at least in part), if not your diction.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

Change it, end of story.

I'm glad you see it as that simple an issue. I see it as that simple too. Timer needs to go. Boom. That's it. That's all there is to it.

However, I've been told that this thread will be booted to Sardelec, where it will wither and die in obscurity, if the posts aren't more than just "/signed" or the equivalent. Please, for the love of your necromancers, post why you think the timer should go (or stay) and also what you think of no-SR-from-spirits and why. Thanks!

Necrotic

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

The mists

Co-founder of Knights of the Phoenix

N/

16 Nov 2007 at 00:38 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lets Get to Healing

Anyone suggesting to use Soul Feast as e managment has never played a Necro: Soul Feast only yields health, I think. Consume Corpse on the other hand . .

You're right of course....I was half asleep when I responded and I actually meant Consume Corpse.....not Soul Feast.

Edited for clarity

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

16 Nov 2007 at 00:54 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Hope it stays, its pretty strong already, i dont really wanna see it go back to being completely overpowered.

I agree. I can't say I notice much difference between then [pre-timer] and now. I just have to pack GoLE or Signet of Lost Souls. In other words I have to manage energy in the same way as my ele, monk, mes... other characters do.

Even as MM it's not hard on the energy. 15 secs is not long and they reduced minion and minion-maintenance costs.