A Litany of Comparison: GW and World of Warcraft

And WoW does? Get the blinders off. They're both purely poops & grins goofing off beyond a certain point. WoW is different in that, one, there is more variety of poops and grins things to waste time on and, two, WoW makes much of the pointless goofing off into work, which many mistake for "challenge".

There is a set of lore stories within each game; you will (or easily can I suppose) experience just about all the lore stories there are to experience within a fraction of the time the average player of either spends playing the game. If there is a key difference, it is that for even a very active player it takes at least a month or two to reach that point with a single character in WoW, whereas you will hit that point in week or two if you play that much in GW with just a single character in a single campaign.

Unless something has changed since I last played, the vast majority of stuff there is to do beyond the core lore quest chains in WoW are purely fluff with no more game value than titles in GW. Engineers got to make bullets, everything else was pretty much a time and money sink for a few laughs. Enchanters had the most game application both in practical and aesthetic uses, but it was a phenomenal money sink that kept you or your friends farming for ages just to get to where you could finally turn a profit (if you ignored what it took to reach that point). Smiths were hosed in that even the rarest of rare recipes cost three arms and a dozen legs to get in the first place, and another set of arms and legs to craft but was inferior to drops, both for armor and weapons. Skinners only found value in that everybody chasing these pointless skills needed their stuff, and so on for the other professions.

So fine, Guild Wars didn't go to that sort of "complexity" for the pointless grind for people who need to do something other than main quests, but let's not kid ourselves that unless you keep your helm of belief suspension on tightly that they're actually any different. It's merely a question of whether you find either system entertaining.

You keep trying to tell me there's more to WoW than there actually is. I played it a LOT so it's not like you're going to fool me by constantly repeating the same exaggerations. I think if time and cost isn't an issue, it's a marginally better game than GW, but it's only marginally better, both in content, depth, and replayability. WoW just gives you the illusion of replayability through the endgame grind for gear. GW is more honest and gives you a endgame grind for skins. If there's anything to be learned, it's that most game players are too stupid to see that there isn't actually any real difference (excepting raid content where the devs figured out how to make that every 0.2% damage reduction mean the difference between success and screaming death).

Maybe I will hit the wall sooner with GW than I did with WoW, I don't know, I haven't been playing it long enough to say that with certainty, but I'm having just as much fun playing GW as I ever did WoW and I'm not tied to a subscription fee to do it. Because of that, it won't even have to last that long before it surpasses WoW for units of fun per dollars spent.

Sorry, but I can't let that pass. You asked for it.

According to Uncyclopedia...



By the way, to stay on topic, I wonder how long until everyone gets tired of WoW and it goes empty?

A lot longer than it takes for GW, I'd say.

Ive played GW since release, and played wow since not long after they released, I love the fact that I can always come back to gw without having to renew a subscription, and there are alot of other things about GW that I like. But I have to say, the world enviornment is not one of them, granted in some areas its really nice,(pre-searing, maguma jungle, and most of nightfall) but for most other areas I cant help but think the devs may have used some kind of "auto painter" for the majority of the lands, I also love to design maps for Bf1942 and Bf2, which makes me feel really critical of texture painting in games after using several different software to try my hardest to make my maps very realistic looking.

In WoW, the way the land is painted and shaped, it really looks way way more realistic in most places, (not just in starter or populated areas), sure the buildings and some of the character's stuff looks cartoony, but the actual world is so real looking, especially when you're soring high up on a gryphon or your flying mount, or standing ontop of a huge mountain that is so tall you cant actually see the ground ( and yes, it will kill you if you fall!) not to mention active day/night cycle and sometimes sunsets and vistas will look different depending on where you are at in the area.

For me, its about immersion, the only area in GW that imo, compares to the immersion of WoW is pre searing ascalon, although the Nightfall chapter comes very close

Now with that said, I must mention this, healing in GW is WAY more challenging and difficult than in WoW ( my priest is level 62 in wow) so Ive healed for all instances up to Underbog, and without a doubt, healing in GW is more fun, and presents a bigger challenge to me, simply put, I love my monk!

past characters for both games include: WoW - 60 hunter, 60 mage(pre TBC) and a 62 priest I am currently working on. GW- 20 ranger, 20 monk, 20 ele, 20 Warrior and a 20 necro

I also have a 1 year old /3 million sp EVE Online character that I play sometimes, (EVE Rocks!!)

A comparison on Class vs Class:

My personal opinion based on Utility, Fun, depth.

GW Warrior > WoW Warrior

GW Paragon(even melee weapon Para) > WoW Paladin

Necro > Warlock

Monk >= Priest

Hunter >= Ranger (depending on spec. Bow physics in GW are far superior--Far!, Pets in WoW are amazing, and almost on par with Heroes. GWs pets should have a Hero like Interface)

Elementalist/Mage, can't comment, haven't played much.

Rogue > Assassin (subjective having played one more than the other.)

Classes Not comparable directly, but comparison based on utility, fun, uniqueness:

Dervish, Ritualist, Mesmer (much) > druid, Shaman (the Dervish and Shaman might be comparable--one on one)

Ever aspect of these non comparable classes have their value, but GW comes out on top.

Dual class system +>>>+ than WoW skill, talent system

The ability to easily change your GW character is for sure a huge benefit.

Maybe a WoW player can comment on this, but it does sound like once you've specced your character the way you want, you're pretty much going to be doing the same thing over and over. Then again, one could argue that as long as you're a decent player, it really doesn't matter if you're a W/Ra or W/N.

Personally, I'm an alt lover. I have 13 characters in Guild Wars, which is really unnecessary. So, I figure if I get tired of my Hunter, I'll just make another character, and not worry so much that WoW doesn't have Secondaries like GW.

you can change your talents for gold,but indeed,99% of the specs play the same.

Not sure what you mean here, but craftable gear is some of the most popular gear worn by 70s. The materials for the stuff are a little tough to get because that stuff will last you a while, all the way even to SSC/TK and after. The weapons for Warriors - Stormherald, Lionheart - are very awesome, even at Tier1, and get to Tier3 and it's just wow.

There are not as many options for skinning as there are for other professions, sure. But it's not like you can't change them, and there's money to be made off of any of them. The only one that's actually not as worth it is engineering, and is one thing many would like Blizz to review.

In terms of the endgame, a big part of it is advancing and progressing your character. I'm going after that loot to be tougher, not just to get that loot. It's the only means of advancement after 70 without an insanely high level cap.

In terms of which is better you can't say that. There are certain qualities that both have that are a little comparable, sure, but there are far too many differences between the two in terms of gameplay and more.

Get WoW if you have a lot of time and want something that'll last awhile, get Guild Wars because it's a great game - not because it's labeled an MMO.

Respeccing in WoW starts at 1g and up to 50g if you keep respeccing. While 50g isn't too much (you'll really start rollin' in tha dough in the Outlands), it's still a bit taxing.

A DW Fury Warrior is entirely different than an Arms warrior, and an Afllic lock is played very differently than a Demo lock.

As to a class vs. class comparison: Warlock over Necro for the simple fact that Felguards kick ass, Warriors are on a tie, Priests + Pallies > Monks because both can actually do something other than healing, and do it well.

I have played GW since first betas, and only recently played WoW to see what it was all about (skipping all the early problems mind you), I was able to quickly see the reason why WoW was more popular. Gear, period. It allows people to have ego and to flaunt it. RPing was a cool idea, and not really feasible in GW, but it gets strained fast. Desire to flaunt your "leet gears" = lots of teenagers, repressed nerds, etc etc playing it. That and Korea's undying love of all things Blizzard, and I think I figured out why its so popular.

I still have more fun in GW than WoW, the biggest thing that pops into my head is the map travelling. GW really ruined stuff like that for me in the spoiled kinda way.

I like gear, but I like skills more. I really don't like comparing GW to WoW because they really are different in a lot of respects, but I am looking forward to GW2 immensely. Hopefully they can keep the same feel as the original while incorporating some more depth in each character, along with some more depth in gear that isn't just vanity. It can be done in a way that is not too grindy, such as a varied gear modifier system, more variance of weapons (instead of just 1-3 types of weapons per class per attribute, which does get redundant), MORE weapon modifiers and stats. This would keep the casual and balanced nature of the game, especially for PvP. Just throwing a ton of skins at us isn't as cool as having truly diverse gear that can be balanced and fair. I don't want to be limited to a standard Sundering _____ of fortitude, having diversity in weapon aqcuisition would really be excellent.

Unfortunately of course I would become hopelessly addicted to that concept much like some of my WoW friends.

Ok now that I have gone on about what is lacking in GW compared to WoW, it does serve a purpose. That to me is the biggest difference between GW and WoW, and is also why both really shouldn't be compared as much as we all try to do.

Either way, whatever you have fun with, it doesn't matter.

Well, flaunting Gear is a goal of many Guild Wars players as well, so I'm not sure you're point is valid. In fact, if all I cared about was armor, I'd play Guild Wars. Your armor doesn't become obsolete with each new expansion!

Which brings me to my point:

I was reading some of the WoW forum, and the idea of Alternative Advancement (like in EverQuest) to replace the ever-increasing level cap.

Without going into too much detail, it seems that after Burning Crusade, the original WoW lands are pretty much obsolete. To be fair, you could make the same argument with Guild Wars: Once you finished Prophecies, there is literally no unique repeatable end game content for it. (Unless people still farm Sorrow's Furnace?)

But it does raise an interesting problem: When will WoW become too bloated? How many expansions and 10 level cap raises (with the appropriate Talent Point increase) can the current meta handle? Eventually, people will max out their talent trees, and then what? Will Blizzard just reset with WoW 2? Any ideas from the WoW players out there?

EDIT: In addition, new players may eventually be turned off by 100+ levels. I'm pretty daunted looking at the level 70 cap, but I understand there's been updates that make it a lot easier to level now. Will future updates after Lich King make it even easier to level to 60?

Monks can actually tank very well. . . Yeah, as funny as it sounds.

Pallies are good off-tanks, but stink for DPS. Monks having loads of Holy damage; in certain context have Massive DPS, and both games have no resistance to Holy. Not quite on par with Shadow Priests, even considering conditional shadow resists--depends on dungeon. If you're in a guild that lets players SF during raids, then it's great, but it never happens on the whole. Innervate and auras negate Shadow Priest endgame utility; for Vamp Touch to proc anything worthwhile you'll have to be top on the DPS chart; meaning you've done nothing but collect, fight for, grovel for +shadow gear for more time than it takes to write War and Peace. SW was also too conditional to help out Locks. About the time I'd left WoW SP had received the largest Nerf since their conception.

I'd say Para(s) + Monks > Priests + Paladin(s)

Even a Consecration Pally hardly compares to an Axe Wielding "Fiery Defender" Paragon--everything on fire, with a 30% damage reduction, massive adrenaline gains, and constant AOE axe attacks--best damn tank in GW. (though Destroyers don't burn so it's not recommended against them) I'm not even considering TNTF/SY, add those in and, well. . . Ursan Blessing isn't even comparable.

Then you consider having up to 3 Paragons, A Trinity makes things almost too easy. Paladins have some synergy, but insignificant comparatively. I better keep quiet or they're going to Nerf one of my favorite classes, again.

My mains were Fury Warrior and Shadow Priest,(and a few other classes.) Regarding Fury, it really isn't any different from MS; DPS is a bit higher, but it is all so completely gear dependent, Many times MS Warriors would out DPS Fury, it just really boils down to gear, especially in WoW where nothing is equal. And of course having that silly debuff being in stance sukks gravel.


This is why I keep claiming Blizzards next big MMO will be a GW Clone.

I'm obviously making a lot of assumptions, but it's amazing and a shame the effort Blizzard has gone to only to have you never visit those beautiful areas again. GW you can replay many of these areas. Hard Mode, Reroll is quick, then Hard-mode, or just go back in normal mode, it's all designed for the same level.

I'm venturing a guess that MMOs will see the light of Re-playability, and extremely advance and varied Instancing layers on top of that beautiful persistent world. Relieving itemization issues/Balancing issues; freeing up loads of Dev time for Challenge Content, rather than Reward Content--better and more abundant content.

Well, they *do* add new talents to the trees, if that's any comfort. If they didn't then yeah, people'd just max out the trees and it'd be boring.

Not to mention that they're finally starting to implement new Hero classes, so it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

Probably. I'd say that they would at one point increase XP rewards from 60-70. Otherwise it could start to get a little crusty for newer players.

Tanking in Guild Wars, regardless of profession, is a waste of a slot. Here's a large thread about it if you're interested.

There may be a few raid bosses where Pally tanking is not so hot, but a Pally MT is still a very viable choice. This guy was able to tank up to Illidan, and he is kickass.

In terms of DPS: Even with all the Ret buffs it's still a bit subpar, but at least they, the Ret pallies, got something.

I'd only go Fury for raids and MS for PvP. Fury DPS is a bit more sustainable in my cases and I usually net 3rd or 2nd in DPS.

Enabling a Heroic mode for all of the older instances in WoW would be pretty cool, but a lot of hard work. I'd much rather they work on newer areas and content than invest a lot of time on the older ones. I'd say maybe in the far future that they consider implementing this. But until than I just want them to work on Northerend and all the other new areas they want us to visit.

Reward content has always been a valued feature even much more before WoW. It's also a reason that a lot of people in GW aren't terribly excited in picking up rare weapons.

Mordakai, the extent to which people "flaunt" their "gear" in GW is insignificant compared to what I have been subject to in WoW. I am not bashing it, but WoW is a game where items are the goal. Its just different than Guild Wars. I started getting sick of the game after doing four (kill X baddies and return me Y pelts of X baddie) quests in three hours time, then getting back, and someone consistently make fun of my noob armor.

At level 10.

And they are 60....

And then they follow me around and ruin the game for me. Consistently saying I am too noob for a noob area.

I get very frustrated by that, and its not just one isolated instance. This is my third attempt at the game, and I just fail to enjoy it personally. At least in Diablo (which has the same type of gearism), you were instanced, and gear really only mattered to your friends. Guild Wars has it in towns, but I don't spend much time in town, so I really don't get bothered by the rare occurance of a "noob-sayer". They don't relate in my personal opinion, beyond aesthetic and logistical similarities.

Then subjectively, I can only take WoW graphics for so long. After a while to me they bland out and the intitial wow (no WoW lol) factor is gone. They were smart to do cartoon WC3 style graphics (which I have personally been sad about, the cinematics are so inverted and cooler imho), since that promotes engine longevity, and therefore WoW can keep making money for Blizzard while dating slower. But personally, I can't take it.

Oh and as for story? Please, it is skeletal at best, not really providing more content on top of what is is built on. Historical lore and coolness of interacting in the Warcraft environment? Uber-awesome! But its own story-line is very weak to me. Not that I think Guild Wars has some substantial amount of story-line either, but cmon, stop arguing that either is better, because they both have minimal story. Lore (for both) and history (in WoWs case) yes, but not story.

Dynamic Vs Static and Level Vs No-level, So much to explore as a basis for content and character advancement. Rewards are also an interesting subject, what constitutes Reward. GW2 Access to more Persistent World may be a form of reward, where more advanced, difficult dungeons, more unique skills, and items are found. I'm really interested to see How Arena Net is going to handle GW2. More WoW like, or Less WoW like(more GW1 Like). Time will tell.

A bunch of unrelated comments:

1) Very interestingly, this thread does not focus so much about support as the previous one (that ended up closed):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10179774

2) Insane situation where a couple of 2 WoW players control 46 accounts from the same "control center":
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/a-real-ra...tup-275902.php
http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=498
I guess that it's always possible in any MMO but only the scale of WoW and its business create a situation where people go to such extremes (yes boxing existed long before WoW).

3) For me, one of the most straightforward reason for not even trying WoW is its average software architecture/design, as illustrated by:
http://www.news.com/No-end-in-sight-...3-6174704.html

Even if the article is more than 6 months old, it's interesting to see that the risk of a Credit card is worth 6$ while the one associated to a Wow account is 10$. And there's the mention of the Warden (it's funny to think that people will not accept trusted computing and yet relish their rights with such a program; I guess the value of WoW is worth more to the vast majority of people than Blizzard possibly spying on them):

Blizzard spokesperson Shon Damron said the company recommends using the Blizzard Launcher, a console that delivers WoW news and at the same time runs a scan of players' computers. If it finds something amiss, it alerts the player.

Elitism in Guild Wars is annoying as hell. For some reason I don't get a whole lot of this in WoW, but it's very apparent in Guild Wars. I can't even begin to count how many times I've been /laughed it or cussed out at for wearing FoW armor, or how many times I've had a title out and see someone with a R6 KoaBD or something title circle around me or try to get my attention. And let's not even go into the /rank business...

In terms of reward, I guess I meant in the term of item drops. Rare weapons don't have much of an appeal in Guild Wars. Shiro's sword - the same sword wielded by Shiro himself! - has no more damage than your normal crafted weapon.

Make no mistake: If there are rare and powerful weapons to be found, a lot of people are gonna explore them.

What we do know so far is as follows:

Soloability-ANet has stated that you won't need a party for anything in GW2. You can do the entire game by yourself.

Level Cap and Balancing - There could be the possibility of having an unlimited level cap and a flattened power curve (meaning a lvl 50 character will be stronger than a level 10 character, but a lvl 100 character would be marginally stronger than a lvl 50 character.) This isn't a problem because A. Your abilites, stats, etc. would be balanced to a cap if you wish to PvP and B. Characters that are below your level will be buffed accordingly to match your level.

For example: You're level 74, your friend is level 14. He will be buffed up in a sense to be as strong as a level 74.

Some people are indeed that dedicated.

I find it hilarious when people complain about how "unfair" it is that one guy is controlling a whole raid. Well let's see: 46 accounts = $690 a month. Then factor in all the technical costs and that equals to about $HOLYSHIT.99.

*shrug* I'd say it's fair.

Ah yes, the keyloggers. You'll find them most prominent on the WoW forums, which is why you do NOT click any links there unless it's worded with proper english and/or from a friend. Even then should you not click on any links.

This is not elitist behaviour, this is stupidity based on pseudo-superiority or bragging. It's people talking and you're not really affected (I mean, apart from the ego, which is understandable as it's their goal).

This is elitism indeed. But I guess WoW has the same thing at the level of raids, doesn't it? Or may be you don't have the first part above (let's call it bragging) as people don't loose the time to talk and they instead disregard you?

It'd be great if before the "end" of this thread, we could touch upon the difference between the two player communities (it does seem right as you said that it's mostly GW players talking about comparisons with WoW, but at the same time it's a healthy thing to do on a forum like GWG, isn't it?)

My major point Bryant is (I well assume some people have come across elitism in GW) that it is not avoidable in WoW. GW is an instanced game, if you want to avoid the elitist bullcrap, do what the game was meant to do and play it!

I personally haven't had an issue other than a few instances of elitism in GW, and I do pretty much everything. I consistently try to get into WoW, but I just don't feel like spending my free time dealing with the never ending stream of fetch quests followed by lvl 60 insults.

If they're saying something negative and hurtful, it's hard not to be affected or annoyed.

Dunno. I personally don't know a whole lot of people on any of my servers that've had this kind of "elitist asshole" harassment.

There are too many sub communities within both of the games that it's too broad to compare.

Could you be a little more specific?

Good overall post. I was a top hunter on Onyxia and then Korgath (all the way to Illidan, but during the summer, with some of the top guilds in the game.) Full T5 2/6 T6, archimonde bow never dropped for me, and we never downed illidan before we broke up.

Having seen all of the pre-BC content as well as ALL of the BC content, SSC, TK, all of Hyjal, and into illidan, I would say that what it really comes down to is that you get what you pay for, unfortunately you still pay a lot for guild wars.

The monthly subscription is something that I would more than welcome for in-game Game Masters and the content delivery that WoW had.

Guild Wars is a GREAT game for a casual player, but there really isn't a drive for exotic things. Sure you could aim for FoW armor, but then what? Your gear doesn't make you stand out past that, and you don't get better by progressing through more difficult content. Everything, for the most part, is homogeneous. There is no excitement factor that WoW had when Kael'thas finally drops the sword, or when you grab your first piece of T6. Sure you look sexy with FoW, but thats merely it.

I think your guild descriptions is somewhat lacking. The WoW guild system is FAR superior to the Guild Wars one, which is utterly ironic. I played guild wars for months and never once joined a guild. In WoW, we had a guild that was ALWAYS on vent, always communicating, and in a wierd way there were real friendships formed. This came out of our reliance on eachother to perform well in high-intensity raiding situations.

If I am missing out on this please let me know which guilds to join =).

This is so subjective. I would be affected, but I would very quickly disregard what they said, unless it's some very harsh language. Some people said on this forum "get over this, this is the internet".

This is quite surprising. I'm not doubting your words one second, but I'd like to know if this is really a phenomenon specific to GW and that does not plague WoW. May be Blizzard is taking action against theses asses?

That's the old problem of sociology. Communities are never "united" as we present them. But it's not a problem if you can focus your question. Nevertheless, there may not be an easy answer to that as MMORPGs don't release that kind of information and game forums are somewhat biaised (most people play the game and don't spend their time talking about it on forums).

About what exactly? The sentence between brackets basically meant that this discussion is enlightening, even to me that will never play WoW, and this is a good thing. (or symmetrically, WoW players are missing on something)

Disregardable, sure. But I still will always remain in the International districts. Words can hurt, especially when I get called a fag (which was frequent). That's really hitting a little close to home.

They have had an in-depth report system for awhile now, but I'm not entirely sure how much of an impact that's had.

I do know of a few people that have had some subpar experiences. I'm saying that I have not. I'm also saying that I've had a very terrible experience with the game community in Guild Wars. Perhaps it could be the PvP-PvE divide?

Then if I may ask, how do you consider the Guild Wars community? Maybe we can get started with half of this comparison and so I have an idea of where we're headed.

I don't remember exactly, but it was either 1% or less than that visit the WoW forums.

Hah, Onyxia's awesome. But how is it nowadays? Seems like it may've attracted a lot of idiots due to the Gilgamesh scandel.

hahaha what a small world... Merciless broke up before that whole deal with that real disgrace of a woman, I never got involved with that drama although she loved to involve herself with us.

After we (Merciless) broke up, the server fell apart, there was no more progression and that's when that whole gilgamesh deal came out. I played with Overrated on Korgath for several months before I quit the game altogether. I wish I knew how onyxia was doing.

... and I'm lost.

I guess that's the problem with having separate Realms?

Yes, it's part of the Game's Illusion to make you think you are more powerful as you journey through content.

At level 10, your sword and armor are just as powerful as they need to be for the content you are enjoying. At level 110 you're in the same boat. Has anything really changed, your still enjoying content, correct? As you push forward through linear content, vertical, stat building content, to reach higher levels, higher access, only limited by level/Tier stat boosting gear, you feel yourself getting more powerful, correct? All the while having challenging fun. How is that power represented? Numbers? Stats? Unlocking your next stage in the journey through the game? What is so Important about those Numbers??

It's an MMO progress meter, they represent your accomplishments for your character, correct? These numbers, these ever growing stats.

Would a Sword or Item without stats, but that allowed you to kill/fight an End Boss so you could progress to the next area in the game, be any less Valued, sought after, or "explored for"? Especially if that Magical weapon had no stats? Could you consider these Non Stat weapon any less valuable, than all that stat gear you grind for in WoW? Why is it that Levels/Stats are so very important if you can do the exact same thing without them (smelly ole shoe again, sorry).

And then as Mordakia, and myself have pointed out over and over, you have completely rendered all previous content useless as the stats have pushed you far beyond any challenge you could have enjoyed upon returning there.

Do the Orcs and Trolls in Tolkien's stories gain stats as you near the book's end? Of course the battles pitch higher, but none of the questers ever gain fancy stats to get to it. Once the sword Anduril was gained, Aragorn didn't look any more Buffed then he did in the begining. The sword was symbolic to the power of his bloodline, but nope, no stats there either. If he, Aragorn, were to go back and fight the orcs earlier in his journey, would they be any less difficult? Even with the Sword?

For me, it seems you are just used to something that was created so you'd feel accomplished, represented simply by numbers, and a bit of virtual art.

WoWs entire game, all of its raiding, all of its crafting, all resists, talents, achievement; everything could have been represented Visually without a single stat number anywhere. Had Blizzard done this, but still had every dungeon, piece of gear, quest, environment, all the challenges and grinds; everything the same but no Stats. Would it have really mattered? Would it have been that different? Instead of seeing your fireball crit for 3k you see your enemy engulfed in a torrent of scorching flame on crit, which is better??

You see where I'm going with this? I hope?

Do numbers really matter?? If you'd never played an MMO with numbers, would you be missing them now??

To me it I can only represent it as a Smelly Ole Shoe, and a rather tired and overdone way to handle an MMO. WoW has done it flawlessly.

Loved WoW for what it was, but it really is time to move on, don't you think. Especially for the next butch of games coming out? WoW still has a few years left to go, but I'd really be surprised if the next gen MMOs stick to such a dated game mechanic as Stats and Levels. Especially those that consider PvP a top priority.

If PvP and PvE are completely and absolutely separate in GW2, even including Skills, and especially The Mists, then they certainly could have an endless level cap, and it would make little difference. Those who love that style could spend their time farming stats, those who don't care for it could PvP. But to negate all previous content by having levels, seems rather backwards for Arena Net. And the potential of having World Wide PvP, even beyond the Mists.. call me crazy, but it just seems so obvious.

If they anounce a PvP server for GW2 I'll do a backflip off my roof.

It's not an MMO progress meter, it's an RPG progress meter.

There was a pretty cool thread awhile ago in the Bethesda forums regarding Oblivion and how content is always balanced around your level. This means that there aren't any areas that are "too high" for your current level and everything is as strong as you are.

Anyways, the thread was actually a poll. In it, it asked: "Would you still enjoy Oblivion if you stayed at level 1, with all skill levels locked?" After a few months, the numbers were (as I recall) 12% yes, 88% no.

So why is this? It's still the same game, same dungeons, same quest, just all at level 1. Why didn't people want this?

The main reason: People like to get bigger. They like to grow, get stronger, look cooler, have more abilities, do more tricks, etc. They like bigger and stronger swords, tougher armor, nastier and more powerful spells, and the list goes on and on.

It's essentially why people play RPGs, and a big reason WoW is so popular. Outdated? Yes, but are we still enjoying it? Yes.

Previous raids, instances, etc. are just stages in the game. When I get the right amount of gear then I can progress onto the next stage - which is something I want to do. And you *can* go back to older raids and instances, it's just not easy.

I do, however, love helping out our young-bloods in Kara. I love that raid...

What ANet has stated is that there will be something like a PvE level cap and a PvP level cap. In PvE you may have leveled up to level 2195608236, and the PvP cap may be 30. When you take your level 2195608236 into a PvP area, your attributes are equivalent to that of level 30. This is just an example, of course.

Okay now I see what you're saying, and that is a good point.

Hypothetical. What if Oblivion had no levels, from the beginning; Oblivion players were used to a different method of progress. You can't honestly say they'd poll the same. To the contrary, they'd poll completely opposite. Being that levels are what they're used to, then I can see why your poll states the obvious.

Do you really need the numbers to do this, to get this "Feeling" of bigger, stronger, cooler, more abilities, do more tricks. Couldn't you get this sense of Power/advancement just as well if not better graphically? Without numbers? Be honest now Think about it, do numbers matter? Do bigger stronger swords need a viewable stat to preform better? Rather than a sword that preforms maybe better than your last sword, maybe differently than your last sword, regardless of stats. Do you need to have stats "Numbers" to feel Powerful, advanced, bigger, stronger, tougher??

If your answer is yes. Then can you personally think of an alternate form of advancement that would be just as gratifying as numbers, or even more gratifying? Is it even possible for the RPG MMO?

Of course the poll wouldn't be the same because the game wouldn't be the same.

But that's not the point of the poll in the first place. There would be no progress *at all*, be it "graphically" or what not. Everything would be just the same as if you were level 1 in Oblivion. You'd find the same weapons as you would in Oblivion level 1, same monsters, rewards, etc.

You could do it with numbers in terms of levels, attributes and stats. You can do it without numbers just in the form of powerful weapons and whatnot. Or you can do it with both, which is what's most frequently used, and usually results in something deeper than either of the two alone.

Why wouldn't there be progress if there was another means of advancement, sans numbers? Why woundn't there be progress If there were no visible stats? It seems to be a very good point--wouldn't the poll results been completely opposite? Hypothetically speaking?

You're saying numbers, stats, etc make it deeper, than say, variable graphics effects, that would show greater spell effects the more powerful you attacks were, or more wound textures, blood splater on the enemies armor the harder you hit with a weapon.

Your saying without numbers it would be less Deep? And that there are Completely Zero alternatives to providing this depth without numbers?? Even if you could design an RPG MMO with all the modern features, without numbers/stats It would not be as Deep? regardless what Developers tried?

You're level 10. Why would you even CARE about what high level players are wearing? You just met a bad player who you should've /ignore instead of letting him get to you (for no good reasons). And believe it or not, this kind of thing can also happen A LOT EASIER in GW. 1.5k armor vs. 15k armor anyone? And since you can wear 15k armor even before lv20, you being low level won't be an excuse in GW.

To expand a bit on the community aspect, GMs are responsible to a large extent to keep the community "clean" and happy. See a botter/gold farmer? Report him, and if there's sufficient evidence, you can bet that he'll be banned. Players consistently spamming or swearing? Report, and he'll get suspended. Have issues with players griefing you while you're request? Report him. Have issues with bosses despawning or items wrongly looted by someone? The GM can fix that.

Also, the community on a WoW Server evolves gradually. After playing for 2.5 years on Silvermoon, I know a lot of the regulars and they know me. I meet people while questing/farming, talk to them and that is how the community evolves. If the only meeting point of a community is outposts(like GW), where chat mostly consists of trade or immature talk, there's no proper evolution of a community.

The WoW community has often been maligned because of the official forums, but if you want to see the reverse, goto the Elitist Jerks website. Imagine thousands of people making posts as constructive as, say Ensign on this forum coupled with VERY strict moderation and you'll smile at the quality available.

This is exactly how I envision GW2. No levels, but advancement in the form of cosmetics and visual effects. If there are levels, they could simply be like a title, something to show you've accomplished X, with no advantages tied to it. Perhaps each level (if there are levels) could unlock different visual effects on skills, animations with attacks and emotes, etc. Perhaps even unlocking access to certain dungeons and "high-end content," as well as armor and weapon skins. Everything entirely cosmetic; no in-game advantage what-so-ever.

One day, a buddy of mine tried to get me to play WoW. I'm no stranger to the whole MMO thing (pre-AOS Ultima Online is an experience, I believe, that can never be replicated unless time is cyclical) or the Warcraft Universe, so I gave it a shot.

I tried out the demo, realized the mundaneness of it and swiftly uninstalled it. I couldn't understand why so many people loved the game...I quickly went back to Dark Age of Camelot where I could choose from dozens of genuinely unique classes and races instead of "Mage" or "Troll".

Then, out of nowhere, the WoW influx started and surrounded my very existence. Nearly everyone around me talked about it nonstop. Gamestop became a zone of pure discontentment and the Johnny Football kids started calling themselves "WoW Nerds".

After hearing a gaggle of sorority girls on the bus talking about "drops" and "farming"--buzz words, which, years ago they would have vapidly pondered at and swiftly scoffed--, my hatred for the game was permanently etched in stone. I'll never have any feeling short of pure malice for the game because it made MMOs "hip".

Before GW came out, I discounted it as cheap and unoriginal. While it may not be as unique as some games--Morrowind, for example, which I believe may be the greatest PC game of all time--I feel like it has a lot of "old school nerd" quality to it. And, unlike WoW, it doesn't need to glitz itself up to seem like the greatest invention since sliced bread. Guild Wars may not be endorsed by Mister T., but the product stands by itself as a very good game.

The poll did not ask "would you play Oblivion through another non-numerical means of advancement," it asked "would you play Oblivion with no advancement at all." No numerical level ups, no graphical level ups, no advancement of any sort whatsoever. The polls would be different because the question would be entirely different.

Actually I'm not saying that at all.

*I probably should've said "always" here.

Not as deep with a stat or attribute system. The most advanced and well done graphical advancement system can and will always be more complex with added numerical values. Can it still be advanced without them? Of course. Can it be as advanced compared to itself with values? No.

Can it be as fun? If the company can pull it off, sure, but why risk that when people are content with levels?

They have stated that higher levels mean you become more powerful, but the power-curve is flattened. Here's a quick 23sec image done in paint to show what that means:

Mordakai mentioned the Everquest AAs.
I remember in the last big expansion I played in EQ2, they didn't raise the level cap, but instead included a second AA tree.
I think, as Mordakai said, it was because the game was getting bloated and less newbie friendly.
IMO, AAs didn't help the situation. They were still character based and if a new character wanted to play the game they still had to trudge through old, dated content for a long time just to see the new mechanics.

I quit EQ2, because I got bored of my character and didn't have the stomach to start a new one. Starting a new character is close to starting from scratch as nothing I achieved with my main character applies to my account and can be used on new characters.

It's why I like GW a lot more than EQ2 and WoW. Once I had played through the game with a Me/Mo I had all kinds of Mesmer and Monk skills unlocked and could start a new character with a lot more options. It was nice incentive motivation to explore all the classes. I wish EQ2 and WoW somehow could do that too. I'd probably still be playing them then.

I'm not going to read through all these pages but I have read the first 2...

Basically, WoW = pay to grind. And GW is pay once, play for a few months if you're hardcore and maybe years if you're casual.

Oh, and Kanaxai's Axe is definitely not worth 30k, lol. When was the last time the OP played GW? And where's the mention of Slaver's Exile? Fun, challenging dungeon series but is plagued by cookie-cutter PUGs that do not invite many professions not named Warrior, Monk, Ranger, Elementalist, and Necro (sometimes).

Edit: The OP also forgot to mention the problem of RMTs (real money traders) ie. gold farmers in WoW...

Now the WoW has been discussed to death in comparison to GW, someone make a new thread discussing and comparing Final Fantasy XI with GW! Now THAT'S a true, hardcore, addicting, and fun MMO!

My point was Hypothetical. Not the opposite of levels(the absence), but an alternative to levels. Hypothetical for the sake of argument. Yes, entirely different, but completely opposite in that "your poll deals with Levels/Stats/Numbers. My Hypothetical Poll Assumes that players never had numbers and were asked if they would now like numbers. As if CoD4, or BF2 were a large Hybrid (rpg like) MMO, and you asked players would they like to see loads of stats on their gear, and numbers Scrolling all over the Combat environment. How do you think they'd poll??
You're saying "Without numbers it would not be AS DEEP?" or
But. You are saying it.

You're saying it's impossible to create RPG-MMO depth without numbers, correct? Numbers are a must-have for any new, highly successful, next-gen RPG, Correct?? and,
So complexity, and parsing endless stats is what you consider DEPTH, correct?

The basis of your argument, A Highly ADVANCED, Next-Gen;(thus) The Highest State of Depth a RPG MMO can achieve, cannot be absent of viewable Stats/Levels/Numbers. Correct? Numbers are a Must to put the next great RPG MMO on the Top of the Heap, Correct?And you are certain that if the RPG MMO genre hand never had Stat/levels/numbers in the first place, that people would be bothered, and in a state of discontent by it's shallowness and lack of depth? {Hypothetical of course, but I'd love your comment all the same.} Even the creator of RPG has commented about how he'd never have used levels/stats had he known what he knows now.

Where is it Written, especially in the GW franchise, game community etc, etc that Players are Content With Stats/Levels/Numbers, and the continuous farming, repetitive grinds that accompany them?? Where does it say that GW fans are Content with this? We can all agree that GW1 really has No Levels, as the biggest part of the game is played at ONE LEVEL= (20). Everything Caps, Stats/Levels/Numbers, in early game play. Ergo No Girbel Wheel of Endless Stats.

Who's content? WoW fans? You're on a GW forum, this post only indicates that about 20% that post this thread are still playing WoW. And of that small percentage, how many of them like GW, Non-Stat (or CAPPED) system better than WoWs stat system.

Could be you are fighting against an overwhelming current (could be I am ), I also believe that what Arena Net had suggested for GW2 almost a year back regarding Levels and other features, are not what you believe they will be when GW2 shows itself. Tell me where, in GWEN, are higher levels implemented or required? Maybe they're sticking to early PR and what I'd consider a "Sellout to the WoW" phenomena. Maybe they aren't, and will use an extremely Robust Title system for advancement, with graphical/literal/verbal/audio values rather than numerical.

But you gotta admit, there are loads of GW players very happy with how the GW1 system works, some so happy that they can't imagine leaving it for GW2

RMT is not a problem in WoW. Games like FFXI got destroyed by RMT issues. WoW isn't affected by it at all. The only value of money is epic mounts, consumables, repairs+gems and enchants. You get the best gear out of raiding or arenas which are Bind on Pickup. And with the daily quests, gold isn't a problem at all. In fact, the only people who'd buy gold are casuals(<10 hours a week) who want an epic mount. That is it.

On the other hand, look at RMT in Guild Wars. People can, and do buy everything from FoW armor to tormented weapons and crystallines.

Just got to Ironforge last night. Holy @#*$! The place is HUGE. Imagine Draknor's Forge x 10.

I really get what people are saying about WoW art design being "better" than Guild Wars: it's not that the graphics are better, I still prefer the realistic look of Guild Wars.

But everything is alive. Gnome tunnels move. There's an underground subway. All sorts of people from newbies like me, to level 70s with epic mounts and Tier 6 armor running around the place. It feels like real city.

OK, now the bad thing:

Skills cost too much money. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've run out of silver buying all my skills. Maybe you're not supposed to buy every skill, but this ain't Guild Wars with free skill quests.

Hmmm, maybe I should start a WoW Diary in off-topic...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...12#post3506312

I totally freaked the first time I entered Ironforge. I was like the proverbial country bumpkin ooohing and ahhhing at everything. Even the gryphons freaked me out. Each city has its own special feel to it. Playing horde is much the same and is cool because it completely turns the world around for you. The tauren city of Thunder Bluff is just ... well, my favorite.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. Outposts in GW remind me of the pit stop/rest stations on the New Jersey turnpike. WoW cities feel like real cities, with buildings you can actually enter and so much to see and do and learn.

Damn, but you need to stop posting or I'll have to renew my WoW account sooner rather than later.

You'll find you seldom use certain skills. They may all look good, but many are a total waste of money. Some are pure "fluff": "Eyes of the Beast", for example, lets hunters play as their pet for a short period. It's a fun skill, but not very useful. Some skills you will have to buy as a priority; others may just have to wait. It's all a matter of decisions, decisions.

In WoW, you can make decent money from the professions. I know I made a lot of money (as a ranger leathercrafter) from armor kits and from making armor. As a blacksmith, I paid for my mount making mithril boots (seemed like a popular item). If you have alternative characters, you can give them complementary professions and they can mail each other items they make. That's how I played it, anyway.

Guild Wars 2, I have no doubt, will incorporate many of these WoW ("wow!" ) ooh-ahh-type features without the aggravation that -- eventually -- comes in WoW when you begin to realize the "cost" (in time, effort, and aggravation) associated with trying to complete the best (instance) content.

WoW is very fun, very real-feeling, to be sure. And the fun factor does not get stale quickly, imo. Where I started to get frustrated with WoW was in the many dungeons I had to skip past because the grouping mechanism in WoW is really lousy, the time required to complete dungeons is excessive, and the fact that, once you're in one, real-life just has to "shut down" in ways that do not occur in Guild Wars.