What is cheating?

Just thought I'd share this article:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/12/18/what-is-cheating/

(RMT = "Real Money Trading," or "pay(ing) money for ingame items")

Very funny to go back to the prehistoric age of MMOs. Are there some people who played and remember MUDs? I played a lot of those, and it's funny to see GW as a descendant of these simple but amazing programs.

But back on topic: what's the spirit of the game? How far can we go from it without transforming the game?

One good example is the amazing GW wiki (the unofficial one). It's packed with tips and tricks that would take you ages to find, it'll give you the best strategy for whatever part of the game in a matter of seconds. Is it cheating to play following the wiki? (rather than you F10 for local help on one subject)

The discussion was the same a few weeks ago on textmods regarding the GMC title. Is it cheating? Even if we only use it for the last 5%? or the last 0.5%?

Please refrain from aggressive comments and flaming other's opinions. Thanks!

I still play the Terry Pratchett Discworld MUD on occassion. Great fun, but it's hard to get a sense of maps...

I remember the days of Muds with great fondness. I used to run a very popular one at one time. Wheel of Time based mud called The Ten Nations...based on rom2.4b. Full PK full loot...then it went to PKReg...then to limited loot....etc.

Powerleveling and multiplay was originally considered cheating and groups were not allowed with a play that was 15 levels higher or lower...that changed eventually and went to no restriction on groups...and allowed multiplaying...so you could lvl your own characters etc....then we went back to restricted groups...there was a few areas that was really hard to figure out etc...and it seemed as if all the ones who did it very rarely shared the "trick" of doing it.

When i firs started in GW...i never went to the wiki or anything else...i figured things out by trial and error or asking questions....now i check the wiki at all times...and i do beleive I have robbed myself of some of the fun of GW by doing so.

I do beleive that RMT is considered cheating...or atleast it is consindered a "cheap" way to play..but using the wiki isn't....weird if you think about it...they both give advantages that wasn't meant to be there when the game started.

I think the frowning on power leveling and RMT is all about it cheapening the prestige elements of a game.
I wouldn't be surprised if most people play online rpgs to fantasize about working to make an awesome character that complete strangers in the game will idolize.

I think it's a shifting in the risk - reward paradigm that used to be more, I don't know...

I like playing sans "cheats" because I like the challenges of clearing areas, map exploring, stuff like that. It's, for me at least, a diversionary form of entertaiment that lets me not be working for awhile (though some would agree that title farming is a lot like work, but I digress). For me, the reward - the title, maybe some gold, etc. - is commensurate with the "risk" - failing to do what I wanted to do.

But I think today, at least, it seems that Westerners especially are all about the maximum reward for the minimum risk - so if a person can create an uber-powerful character who utterly smites everything in sight with merely a glance, then they get lots of reward for themselves - for whatever reason - with no effort or risk.

RMT = "Real Money Trading," or "pay(ing) money for ingame items" for those who don't want to click through the links.

I just wanted to say that technically it's not cheating if you were on a break...
or drunk...
Cuz you know things happen sometimes in Vegas.

Good reminder, I've added it to the OP. (but I hope people will still explore the links)

What I think is important to discuss here is how distorted the notion of "cheat" and "cheating" is in MMOs. And this distortion may come from the history of the genre, not only MMOs but also video-game where there's a whole portion of the work done on cheating (remember finishing or replaying games using cheat codes?). (though it's unrelated to the topic at hand, I'd like to mention the download of illegal stuff on the net, which seems less "illegal" or "cheating" than in the real world, particularly nowadays that broadband is almost everywhere)

It seems strange to think of the GWiki as a cheat, though it does make sense. But then one discusses the time/effort/reward trade-off and it suddenly makes more sense: for casual players, Gwiki may be a way to enable progress, that may be impossible due to time limitations. But this also implies that greedy people can quickly and easily gain high ranks and reputation using the same path.

Another related question for example is: Is Ursan Way a cheat? It does not always help, but it greatly helps (I appreciated the help when trying to get the Master's of missions), and someone may ask if it requires a lot of skills, which I think it does not (though, again, it may be used with skill, that's not the point here).

I believe by definiton from most online games, cheating in that area is defined as using real life advantages for material gain inside the game world. For this reason, I would call RMT cheating. Giving tips is one thing, writing guides and things, you don't use any real life advantage that everyone else in the game does not have access to. It costs you nothing to use out of pocket. However, many people do not have access to buying gold due to lack of payment options or money in general. Why someone would waste real life cash on game cash is beyond me, but I'd say that's cheating.

Ursanway, to answer the question, goes back to the new vs. old debate. Many games, as they are updated, introduce new ways to do things that many times make the activity easier. It doesn't mean that they are balenced within the game, but they are presented for use within the game none the less. Utilizing it or not utilizing it is your personal choice.

Obviously, you missed the point I'm trying to make here. It's at the core a discussion on the spirit of the game, that could easily go off on a tangent of morality.

Ursanway is perfectly legal and legitimate. It's of course available and shouldn't be removed, similarly to the GWiki or textmods. That's also why I'm not comfortable using the word "cheating" without double-quotes here, because of its moral connotation which I'm not trying to imply here as a judgement but rather as a social construct (if EVERYONE was using ursanway commonly, no one would ever ask the question). Or in other words, I'm trying to make sense of this concept of "cheat" in a novel context.

To go one step further with your reasoning: is exploiting a game bug "cheating"? Technically, it's a feature provided by the game, even if (and cheaters know it msot of the time) it'll be fixed quickly, so it's still a matter of personal choice. But is it "cheating"?

(disclaimer: sorry if my post is confusing, I wrote it a bit too quickly as I have to go)

If it is offered in the game, it's not a cheat. If it's a bug, it's on the dev's to fix it, not the gamer to conscientiously ignore the bug until someone fixes it. How would the devs even know there was a bug or a short-cut to leveling if no one took advantage of it?

As for GWiki, it's the evolution of the game manual for the MMO. It allows up-to-date(sometimes) strategies on competing and finishing the game. Final Fantasy has game manuals that tell you the same thing, and I wouldn't consider them cheating. The Wiki just modifies that idea for a changing game, where bug fixes and balancing change the game often.

Texmods(like for GMC) would be considered a cheat, as you are modifying the interface in a way not authorized by the devs to achieve a reward. It helps a lot more having the unmapped areas appear in red, than just watching your percentage and trying to cover an entire area.

Ultimately, it's up to the people who made the game, IE Anet. They make the rules, and decide what is legal and what isn't with the EULA. anything else, including what I said above, is just an opinion. It's up to your own morality and conscience to decide what is cheating after that.

I'm not aiming to point out the legality of Ursan Blessing. I'm sorry if that's what it sounds like. What I'm trying to say with the above quote is that regardless of the morale tangent as you call it, the bottom line is that it is just another update that has made previous activities easier, and is again, personal choice. This does not mean that its power or ability of it is not questionable, but using it cannot qualify as cheating on any level, as game principle comes down to only personal opinion, and no opinion having more value than another.

As for game bugs, it is clearly stated that you are not supposed to abuse things that are not supposed to be in the game. Taking advantage of Arenanet's errors is below the line. Regardless of personal opinion on morales, it's not an argument that's up for grabs.

Or in a different state?

I don't live in the US, so the only state I could think of where people cheat a lot is Vegas from all them CSI episodes I watch.
It's weird but your quote shows the Vegas part, yet my post above doesn't.
*Twilight zone music*

About power leveling. I think it's considered cheating in pay to play games because it's hurting the income the game generates. Guild Wars system really lets power leveling and sequence breaking go.
Which is refreshing!

i don't think RMT is really cheating in gw, look what it gives u, better item, but same stats as any other pvp items. i've seen many ppl with leet armor or weapon yet still can't play shit and get yelled at, if that's cheating, then it's a sucky one.

Yup, if GW let you pay through your account for in game gold like Second Life does what you just said wouldnt be cheating at all, it would be paying a few dollars to get better looking armor than what you have, simple as that.

I marvel at the GW concept of economy....lots of people seem to have the cart in front of the horse. RMT exists because of things people want in the game that are very difficult to get....RMT thrives when things are so difficult to get that the RMT site can charge whatever they want for the most sought after stuff.

Really the way things are set up in GW as far as it's "economy" gameplay and rules are, set off the little conspiracy theorist voice in my head- it's almost as if they enjoy the Black Market their game has.

I believe they don't, though they know they may be tougher but that would mean spending a substantial amount of resources to prevent RMT, that gives them some money via accounts sold.

Honestly pygar, don't think for one minute to open the RMT door. 2L is an exception as it's not a game. If you put your finger (as a game company) into the RMT machine, you're taking a HUGE risk that may actually push you to suicide at one point.

Anyway, this is not the thread on Reflections on Commerce in MMOs and Virtual Economies, so let's stay on focus.

RMT ARE cheats, because they basically violate the EULA. I was thinking of things that are less obviously cheats. Ursanway looks like a cheat to those that want to play the game without over-powered skills, GWiki is seen as a "game manual" (for me it's not, it's a "solution" to the game) and the "don't exploit bugs because it's against the EULA" may be bypassed (there are still extremely rich people because of the duping, despite the bans en masse).

Never cared much for RMT or those who used it.There is hardly an item that id want to grind money for so i dont give a damn about the so called economy.cheats... well,you can uset hem till you get cought.In real life you would use anything you can to sirvive even cheat so why not in game.Or would you be stupid like an autobot and die for honor?If there was a way to live for 300 years wouldnt you take it? thought it would be cheating the greates rpg of all, real life.

I like this thread.... :-)

Wiki vs RMT
=
Sharing of knowledge vs sharing of in game gold.

Just one is free and the other isnt
(they both take time to get if you disregard wiki and rmt)

Personally i like wiki but would never go for RMT... but me thinks that makes me a cheap skate hehe

Depends on the game, the EULA and the game management.

In a game like GW, RMT is considered cheating, but there are plenty out there where a little cash will take you a long way. Personally I'm against any situation where real life cash equals in game power.

Oh and I still regularly play the same MUD I was playing back in 95.