What is cheating?

Just thought I'd share this article:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/12/18/what-is-cheating/

(RMT = "Real Money Trading," or "pay(ing) money for ingame items")

Very funny to go back to the prehistoric age of MMOs. Are there some people who played and remember MUDs? I played a lot of those, and it's funny to see GW as a descendant of these simple but amazing programs.

But back on topic: what's the spirit of the game? How far can we go from it without transforming the game?

One good example is the amazing GW wiki (the unofficial one). It's packed with tips and tricks that would take you ages to find, it'll give you the best strategy for whatever part of the game in a matter of seconds. Is it cheating to play following the wiki? (rather than you F10 for local help on one subject)

The discussion was the same a few weeks ago on textmods regarding the GMC title. Is it cheating? Even if we only use it for the last 5%? or the last 0.5%?

Please refrain from aggressive comments and flaming other's opinions. Thanks!

I still play the Terry Pratchett Discworld MUD on occassion. Great fun, but it's hard to get a sense of maps...

I remember the days of Muds with great fondness. I used to run a very popular one at one time. Wheel of Time based mud called The Ten Nations...based on rom2.4b. Full PK full loot...then it went to PKReg...then to limited loot....etc.

Powerleveling and multiplay was originally considered cheating and groups were not allowed with a play that was 15 levels higher or lower...that changed eventually and went to no restriction on groups...and allowed multiplaying...so you could lvl your own characters etc....then we went back to restricted groups...there was a few areas that was really hard to figure out etc...and it seemed as if all the ones who did it very rarely shared the "trick" of doing it.

When i firs started in GW...i never went to the wiki or anything else...i figured things out by trial and error or asking questions....now i check the wiki at all times...and i do beleive I have robbed myself of some of the fun of GW by doing so.

I do beleive that RMT is considered cheating...or atleast it is consindered a "cheap" way to play..but using the wiki isn't....weird if you think about it...they both give advantages that wasn't meant to be there when the game started.

I think the frowning on power leveling and RMT is all about it cheapening the prestige elements of a game.
I wouldn't be surprised if most people play online rpgs to fantasize about working to make an awesome character that complete strangers in the game will idolize.

I think it's a shifting in the risk - reward paradigm that used to be more, I don't know...

I like playing sans "cheats" because I like the challenges of clearing areas, map exploring, stuff like that. It's, for me at least, a diversionary form of entertaiment that lets me not be working for awhile (though some would agree that title farming is a lot like work, but I digress). For me, the reward - the title, maybe some gold, etc. - is commensurate with the "risk" - failing to do what I wanted to do.

But I think today, at least, it seems that Westerners especially are all about the maximum reward for the minimum risk - so if a person can create an uber-powerful character who utterly smites everything in sight with merely a glance, then they get lots of reward for themselves - for whatever reason - with no effort or risk.

RMT = "Real Money Trading," or "pay(ing) money for ingame items" for those who don't want to click through the links.

I just wanted to say that technically it's not cheating if you were on a break...
or drunk...
Cuz you know things happen sometimes in Vegas.

Good reminder, I've added it to the OP. (but I hope people will still explore the links)

What I think is important to discuss here is how distorted the notion of "cheat" and "cheating" is in MMOs. And this distortion may come from the history of the genre, not only MMOs but also video-game where there's a whole portion of the work done on cheating (remember finishing or replaying games using cheat codes?). (though it's unrelated to the topic at hand, I'd like to mention the download of illegal stuff on the net, which seems less "illegal" or "cheating" than in the real world, particularly nowadays that broadband is almost everywhere)

It seems strange to think of the GWiki as a cheat, though it does make sense. But then one discusses the time/effort/reward trade-off and it suddenly makes more sense: for casual players, Gwiki may be a way to enable progress, that may be impossible due to time limitations. But this also implies that greedy people can quickly and easily gain high ranks and reputation using the same path.

Another related question for example is: Is Ursan Way a cheat? It does not always help, but it greatly helps (I appreciated the help when trying to get the Master's of missions), and someone may ask if it requires a lot of skills, which I think it does not (though, again, it may be used with skill, that's not the point here).

I believe by definiton from most online games, cheating in that area is defined as using real life advantages for material gain inside the game world. For this reason, I would call RMT cheating. Giving tips is one thing, writing guides and things, you don't use any real life advantage that everyone else in the game does not have access to. It costs you nothing to use out of pocket. However, many people do not have access to buying gold due to lack of payment options or money in general. Why someone would waste real life cash on game cash is beyond me, but I'd say that's cheating.

Ursanway, to answer the question, goes back to the new vs. old debate. Many games, as they are updated, introduce new ways to do things that many times make the activity easier. It doesn't mean that they are balenced within the game, but they are presented for use within the game none the less. Utilizing it or not utilizing it is your personal choice.

Obviously, you missed the point I'm trying to make here. It's at the core a discussion on the spirit of the game, that could easily go off on a tangent of morality.

Ursanway is perfectly legal and legitimate. It's of course available and shouldn't be removed, similarly to the GWiki or textmods. That's also why I'm not comfortable using the word "cheating" without double-quotes here, because of its moral connotation which I'm not trying to imply here as a judgement but rather as a social construct (if EVERYONE was using ursanway commonly, no one would ever ask the question). Or in other words, I'm trying to make sense of this concept of "cheat" in a novel context.

To go one step further with your reasoning: is exploiting a game bug "cheating"? Technically, it's a feature provided by the game, even if (and cheaters know it msot of the time) it'll be fixed quickly, so it's still a matter of personal choice. But is it "cheating"?

(disclaimer: sorry if my post is confusing, I wrote it a bit too quickly as I have to go)

If it is offered in the game, it's not a cheat. If it's a bug, it's on the dev's to fix it, not the gamer to conscientiously ignore the bug until someone fixes it. How would the devs even know there was a bug or a short-cut to leveling if no one took advantage of it?

As for GWiki, it's the evolution of the game manual for the MMO. It allows up-to-date(sometimes) strategies on competing and finishing the game. Final Fantasy has game manuals that tell you the same thing, and I wouldn't consider them cheating. The Wiki just modifies that idea for a changing game, where bug fixes and balancing change the game often.

Texmods(like for GMC) would be considered a cheat, as you are modifying the interface in a way not authorized by the devs to achieve a reward. It helps a lot more having the unmapped areas appear in red, than just watching your percentage and trying to cover an entire area.

Ultimately, it's up to the people who made the game, IE Anet. They make the rules, and decide what is legal and what isn't with the EULA. anything else, including what I said above, is just an opinion. It's up to your own morality and conscience to decide what is cheating after that.

I'm not aiming to point out the legality of Ursan Blessing. I'm sorry if that's what it sounds like. What I'm trying to say with the above quote is that regardless of the morale tangent as you call it, the bottom line is that it is just another update that has made previous activities easier, and is again, personal choice. This does not mean that its power or ability of it is not questionable, but using it cannot qualify as cheating on any level, as game principle comes down to only personal opinion, and no opinion having more value than another.

As for game bugs, it is clearly stated that you are not supposed to abuse things that are not supposed to be in the game. Taking advantage of Arenanet's errors is below the line. Regardless of personal opinion on morales, it's not an argument that's up for grabs.

Or in a different state?

I don't live in the US, so the only state I could think of where people cheat a lot is Vegas from all them CSI episodes I watch.
It's weird but your quote shows the Vegas part, yet my post above doesn't.
*Twilight zone music*

About power leveling. I think it's considered cheating in pay to play games because it's hurting the income the game generates. Guild Wars system really lets power leveling and sequence breaking go.
Which is refreshing!

i don't think RMT is really cheating in gw, look what it gives u, better item, but same stats as any other pvp items. i've seen many ppl with leet armor or weapon yet still can't play shit and get yelled at, if that's cheating, then it's a sucky one.

Yup, if GW let you pay through your account for in game gold like Second Life does what you just said wouldnt be cheating at all, it would be paying a few dollars to get better looking armor than what you have, simple as that.

I marvel at the GW concept of economy....lots of people seem to have the cart in front of the horse. RMT exists because of things people want in the game that are very difficult to get....RMT thrives when things are so difficult to get that the RMT site can charge whatever they want for the most sought after stuff.

Really the way things are set up in GW as far as it's "economy" gameplay and rules are, set off the little conspiracy theorist voice in my head- it's almost as if they enjoy the Black Market their game has.

I believe they don't, though they know they may be tougher but that would mean spending a substantial amount of resources to prevent RMT, that gives them some money via accounts sold.

Honestly pygar, don't think for one minute to open the RMT door. 2L is an exception as it's not a game. If you put your finger (as a game company) into the RMT machine, you're taking a HUGE risk that may actually push you to suicide at one point.

Anyway, this is not the thread on Reflections on Commerce in MMOs and Virtual Economies, so let's stay on focus.

RMT ARE cheats, because they basically violate the EULA. I was thinking of things that are less obviously cheats. Ursanway looks like a cheat to those that want to play the game without over-powered skills, GWiki is seen as a "game manual" (for me it's not, it's a "solution" to the game) and the "don't exploit bugs because it's against the EULA" may be bypassed (there are still extremely rich people because of the duping, despite the bans en masse).

Never cared much for RMT or those who used it.There is hardly an item that id want to grind money for so i dont give a damn about the so called economy.cheats... well,you can uset hem till you get cought.In real life you would use anything you can to sirvive even cheat so why not in game.Or would you be stupid like an autobot and die for honor?If there was a way to live for 300 years wouldnt you take it? thought it would be cheating the greates rpg of all, real life.

I like this thread.... :-)

Wiki vs RMT
=
Sharing of knowledge vs sharing of in game gold.

Just one is free and the other isnt
(they both take time to get if you disregard wiki and rmt)

Personally i like wiki but would never go for RMT... but me thinks that makes me a cheap skate hehe

Depends on the game, the EULA and the game management.

In a game like GW, RMT is considered cheating, but there are plenty out there where a little cash will take you a long way. Personally I'm against any situation where real life cash equals in game power.

Oh and I still regularly play the same MUD I was playing back in 95.

Another good post Fril

They shouldnt enjoy their black market because it's other people profiting from their game. (Or is it? in my devils advocate/ conspiracy theorist mental voice) And yes the way they have the rules set it's a gainst the rules and is "cheating".

The big irony is like the poster i responded to points out, the items ppl will pay big for in GW dont even make them tougher players, a trait that is funny to me, because it reminds me of Second Life so much- you dont need anything in SL it's all just there to play digital barbie with.

I dont know if there is any way for GW to emulate what second life does, I just know SL doesnt have the same "RMT"/economy issues at all, and even though very hard to classify SL as a game, lots of people play, and even though GW is a game more proper, lots of people are kinda just hanging out looking pretty....

lol

In other games RMT is extremely harmful because they give players a direct advantage through superior gear. In GW all the money in the world is not going to help you complete the objectives any faster so from that perspective is not an issue.

There is however a percentage of the community that play to collect in game wealth, a portion of the game that RMT ruins. RMT needs to be stamped out to preserve the gaming environment for these people.

Why MMORPGs are called roleplaying games when there's little actual roleplaying taking place besides storyline elements? Helpsites, fansites and this talk of "economy" really turns off all immersion for me and reminds me on every turn of how technical pieces of code games really are.

For example, the polar bear pet is now rare - people are willing to pay hundreds of ectos to get themselves one, which equals hundreds of hours spent on nothing but sitting in front of computer doing repetitive grinding. Yet ANET programmers could at any moment flick a switch and make that minipets appear on dungeon chests. I can never unlearn the fact that everything we do in the game is just altering variables for our characters and where's the glory in that?!

To be honest I'd rather go do something which gives me something to be actually proud of. If you can play, heck, poker you're going to turn profit some day. Everyone knows what poker is and can relate their own experiences. Try to say that you're HA champ and get laughed off by being mere abuser of broken builds or game mechanics on the very site dedicated to fans of game. If you want to get experience and I don't mean experiences points now, go to national park and see real nature and real animals. As soon as servers shut down people will realize what a big waste of life playing games like this really is. Until then keep yourself lulled in dream that your titles matter, because of another upcoming game that is going to be just the same. What a vicious circle for addicts.

aapo: how relevant is your post to this thread? (it's more about economy than cheating, isn't it?)

- I think the main point was that in-game items have only sentimental value if anything. Whether RMT is cheating or not depends on rules of the game, I don't see how anyone can consider it morally wrong because of reasons stated in my previous post.

What's the relationship between your first post and the morality of the issue of cheating?

As it relates to Guild Wars, I think that it is almost impossible to "cheat."

About the only thing I could think of would be to actually hack something server-side to give yourself an advantage in PvP, but that's about it.

In PvE, there's nothing I could do that would alter the game for anyone else, so what would anyone care? Imagine if I hacked the game to give myself every title and minipet, max gold and a billion ectos. That wouldn't change your game one fraction.

I realize some people did something close to this with item duping, and A-Net had a different opinion, but I don't feel that any of that had an effect on my play or enjoyment.

- I'm not responsible for your reading comprehension.

It comes down to two issues, both which can be related to one another. First, the specific rules of the game. Second, legal issues.

Each online game has its different rules and regulations. Sure, for the most part, 95% of all EULA's, ToS, Agreement Terms are all the same, but not all. I'd like to think of it like University classes. For the most part all classes have the same basic rules of "Cheating". These would include things like no cellphones, no headphones, keep your eyes on your paper at all times, no talking, any quetions must be directed to the Professor and not another student.

Then you have individual class rules based on perhaps the material and who teaches the class. For instance, in my Project Management classes we're permitted 1 note card, front and back, with any notes we choose to put on it for our exams. My prior, Management Theory, allowed no use of any material and to be caught even with a notecard, or notes in the palm of your hand, WOULD be cheating.

While it's nice to have those aids in one class, I have to obide by the rules of each individual class. This is no different in games. Whether I like them, or not, I have to live with them. According to the EULA here, RMT services are against the rules of their classroom. Even if I were to believe that RMT services aren't harmful, or don't create liability issues for the company, I still don't hold rights to break those rules set forth.


To expand on that thought, keep in mind all we've paid for in regards to Guild Wars are the resources needed to use the service they provide. Kind of like me with my digital cable. I've only paid for the service. The modems, routers, and digtial boxes do not belong to me. I have no rights to sell those items, nor do I have any rights to sell my provider account information.

Same can be said for Guild Wars. We do not own the items. I don't own my Kaolin Domination Staffs, or the 6 Wingstorms sitting in my storage. We might be in posession of them, but they are not 'ours' and therefore hold no rights to profit off those items for real world money. This is where Reason 1 begins to morph with Reason 2 of legality issues. This is to say that Guild Wars, like many other games and their parent companies (and I'm sure you would too if you were in that position) are protecting themselves from liability in cases of fraud from these services. It's why not only sellers, but also buyers, are banned for RMT.

Of course not. But you could at least answer my question, couldn't you?

To me it becomes cheating if it involves something third party that gives the cheater an impossible advantage. TPPK bot from Diablo2 is the worst i can think off since it spontaniously kills characters wile the killer is in town.

Condition of Diablo2 : Dead.

I guess it was even easyer back in the early and naive days when you could simply use a program that allowed you to "set player X health to 0"

I think aapo is pro RMT, powerleveling, ect because he/she believes any accomplishment in a video game is trivial anyway.

If it's a single player game than I think cheating is trivial. If it's a competitive game, then cheating is considered unsportsmanlike. It degrades the enjoyment of others playing the game.
And as I said before I think there are lots of people who even see PvE rpg as competitive, in that it involves prestige. Prestige is just about a part of any game with social networking elements to it.

Very nicely put, and a great point you're making! Indeed, we have to abide by "unread rules" that are called EULAs, and strictly speaking they basically say that everything on the server (including our characters' information) belongs to Anet.

But that's not the case of the GWiki for example (may be why Anet created an "official" one?) or textmods you install on your client computer. From what I've read on GWG, this is against the EULA (no 3rd party program) but it is tolerated by Anet, because it does not really harm their business and increases the player's experience at no cost for them. But where do you put the limit of how acceptable a textmod is? The one for GMC can actually be used to get the title very quickly (there was this thread a while back saying that some people claimed to have gotten the GMC in a day!), I've heard people saying that some textmods do (or may?) give an advantage in game by highlighting certain factors (like skills used) and displaying usefull information (like what skill you should use when the opponent uses a certain skill?), so I guess a lot of people would agree that this is cheating?

The rules can and are bent all the time. We're not even lawyers to understand the EULA, but we have to agree to a certain "spirit of the game". I remember very clearly reading a lot of GWG threads where basically some players were complaining of the lack of "spirit" in other players' behaviours, either because they use textmods to achieve title more easily than the first did, or because they show no politeness or no "honor". I'd even tend to agree with these people, because in the long run, a game will be more successful if it is supported by its "values" rather than by its (technical) means.

But I feel that MMO sort of more and more escape this discussion. Socially speaking, it becomes less about how we behave (something that takes time to do) rather than things we have (instantaneous rewards?). And because of this, the notion of "cheating", in the sense that "rules" (based on the values) are bent or violated, does not apply the same way. One can basically say "it works for me" and "get away" with it, a bit like in real life when people say "it won't hurt people if they don't know".

Are politicians cheating when they bent the meaning of words?

Clearly somebody forgot to tell the tens of thousands of people who still play it.

It's not the biggest game in the world any more, but it's far from dead. Just like GW is far from dead, despite how many people in this forum seem to think it's 5 months out from it ... >.>

I'm not very familiar with initials when dealing with games. what does RMT stand for? sorry for the newbie question but can't be helped. after i know i may beable to participate in the discussion.

tyvm for any and all replies.

The problem with Diablo2 is that only the cheaters remain. Especially in hardcore. On softcore, there is only farming and rushing. No normal gameplay whatsoever. Zero.

So Diablo2 is a walking corpse only populated by the hopeless addicts who stopped having fun years ago. People who want fun are bullied out of the game or are forced to solo, wich defeats the purpose of being on line.

Or do you think it's normal that most level 90+ characters didn't even complete all quests or activated all waypoints?

RMT=Real-monay Trading. Or "gold selling" if you will, the business of selling virtual gold for real money.

Buying your FoW on Ebay is just stupid because it doesn't give you any advantage.Exept that people will accuse you of Ebaying. Some players love that kind of reaction even if it's true, but i just don't think a smirk is worth real cash.

oh, ok, thanks for the explaination. Yes i agree buying gold or items online for real money is cheating because it gives players huge advantages over everyone else. if i have 100 bucks a week to drop on gold/iitems and no one else does then i have an unfair advantage.

games are suppose to be about enjoyment, and sometimes competition. but competition is pointless if skill plays no part. RMT eliminates skill. In diablo 2 lod i had to deal with this, people buying HighRunes to make runic items, they would spend 100-200 bucks and have perfect gear with no effort, i worked for 6 years to get my gear and some of it wasnt even perfect.

i consider RMT cheating and against the spirit of gaming. people who buy gold/items to get an advantage in their game are "Noobs" in the truest sense of the word. and i hate the word noob. They are without skill, this is why they need to buy gold/items.

Well... to be honest most of the point of Diablo 2 is farming, unless you're low-level or something similar. There just isn't that much lasting appeal apart from attempting to get better stuff.

Of course, you also get people who just buy their equipment, probably from the dupers... and THEN what do you do...