What is cheating? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

MStarfire

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

[SOS]

Rt/

22 Jun 2008 at 03:51 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Abusing broken game mechanics isn't cheating?
Some skills are broken in essence, and cheats are actually implimented in alot of games purposely. In this game, they either didn't test it or they cluelessly added it on.

This game was also all about positioning. The mechanic known as "shadowstepping" was against that concept and the usage of shadowsteps gives you an unfair advantage in positioning.

If it wasn't cheating, it wouldn't be known as abusing, but using instead.

By the way:

There's only one skill in the game that counters an SF spike at it's utmost potential. Yeah, you can split up, but the radius of SF is generally quite wide.

This skill is known as [[xinrae's weapon], which has a recharge of 30 and an energy cost of 25, which is elite and sucks against any other team.

Counters don't stop a build being overpowered, and an SF spike recharges in a measly 2 seconds.

Unless you have actual quotes from developers concerning "what the game was intended to be", as well as documentation that they regret adding any new mechanics since Prophecies, kindly refrain from spewing crap about new mechanics being considered cheating.

You're seriously trying to argue that Shadowstepping is cheating? You're telling me that just because you consider something "untested" or "hastily added" it's cheating? You're talking like a fool. You did not make this game. You did not make a career out of improving and evolving this game. You sound like you're stuck in the pre-Factions days of PvP when you had to make it to the Crystal Desert to do HA. You're no better than an old man who sits on his porch and yells at people for driving cars.

Please, just excuse yourself from this thread because you're not contributing, you're just talking nonsense.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Jun 2008 at 04:03 - 122

It's evident that the developers have given up on GW1 anyway, so "the way the game was intended to be" isn't a good point to bring up.

I believe the abuse of mechanics that are broken in themselves is actually cheating. You can easily say cheats don't exist, I mean, alot of games have cheats integrated in those games themselves. Some intended, some accidental, but all in all I believe they were intended.

This game was ment to be a strategic game. Positioning and player skill, be it through skill choice or what you're doing, ment everything. It's gone downhill, but that is for another thread.

If you're abusing something, you're obviously taking it to a higher level to bring your advantage up unfairly. That is what I believe anyway.

Sorry Avarre, but I don't really think of it that way myself. If you're running an overpowered build, and you're playing against someone using a normal build that is balanced in essence, you've got an advantage above them and they have to be alot, and I mean alot better than the team running the overpowered build. In that case it's unfair on the team running the more balanced build so they are required to take the overpowered build.

Quote:

You're seriously trying to argue that Shadowstepping is cheating? You're telling me that just because you consider something "untested" or "hastily added" it's cheating? You're talking like a fool. You did not make this game. You did not make a career out of improving and evolving this game. You sound like you're stuck in the pre-Factions days of PvP when you had to make it to the Crystal Desert to do HA. You're no better than an old man who sits on his porch and yells at people for driving cars.

Shadowstepping kills all requires skill in positioning when said skill is used. That to me is broken and abusable, thus cheating to me. I did not make this game, nor did I bring it up. I didn't even start until between Factions and Nightfall, but I do understand that it's simply stupidity to be able to throw a shadowstepping skill on your bar and defy positioning.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

22 Jun 2008 at 06:12 - 123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Shadowstepping kills all requires skill in positioning when said skill is used. That to me is broken and abusable, thus cheating to me. I did not make this game, nor did I bring it up. I didn't even start until between Factions and Nightfall, but I do understand that it's simply stupidity to be able to throw a shadowstepping skill on your bar and defy positioning.

\

You do ofcourse realize that in order to use shadow stepping you have to have an already clear path to get to your enemy. Not like it works if there on a hill with no bridge and you jump up there because it dont work that way. So no it doest quite defy positioning.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Jun 2008 at 06:17 - 124

^
That's only if there is absolutely no entry to that area whatsoever.

Line-of-sight doesn't apply to shadowstepping.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

22 Jun 2008 at 06:19 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

broken and abusable, thus cheating to me.

You're discussing a situation of "unfairness" that is on the edge of cheating. As hallomik showed in message #42, cheating is:

1. It uses external programs never envisioned.
2. It violates the EULA.
3. It makes fair competition impossible.
4. It directly harms another player's experience.

Broken skills end up in 3 and 4, but it's difficult to argue because a) in PvE the opponent doesn't care (he's AI) so no need to bring fairness into the equation; b) counter-builds can be found in PvP and this is part of the never-ending game of PvP evolution. There's a hidden c) option if you consider the ease with which people play UW and FoW with UB, thus impacting the economy (but it's not rule 4 above as it's indirect). But as someone said already, it's lame but not cheating.

IMHO cheating involves an intention to cheat, and when people use UB or SF-spike, they're not voluntarily trying to "exploit" a game feature. It is a "normal" part of the game, even if broken. You can't blame people for using UB, you can blame them for only using UB and making GW a 1-2-3-4-5 button mashing game.

Edit: it's the same with shadowstepping. It clearly was from day one intended to bring something new into the game. No unfairness here, no possible intention to abuse the game and "harm" other players (in any other way than kill them, I've experienced that myself countless times as an ele

).

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Jun 2008 at 06:21 - 126

Well that's the thing Fril, it's human nature to take what's most powerful in the first place.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 Jun 2008 at 06:24 - 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

\

You do ofcourse realize that in order to use shadow stepping you have to have an already clear path to get to your enemy. Not like it works if there on a hill with no bridge and you jump up there because it dont work that way. So no it doest quite defy positioning.

If you can walk to your target, you can shadowstep to your target, regardless of what's in the way. So yes, it does indeed defy positioning.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

22 Jun 2008 at 06:33 - 128

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well that's the thing Fril, it's human nature to take what's most powerful in the first place.

You have to make a clear distinction between cheating and the rest. If people clear UW and FoW without UB but do it nevertheless for efficiency reasons, you can't call the simple fact of using UB cheating. If people kill you by shadow-stepping, they're catching you in a way that is perfectly normal with regards to what the devs expected. Overpower is part of any game (I remember how WoW arena players were astonished when someone performed a spike!) and even, as you suggest, a temptation of human nature. Cheating is not.

You may want to discuss how unbalanced or broken all this is, but don't blame it on other players. Cheating comes from players, not devs.

sixacsix

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

HERO

22 Jun 2008 at 15:01 - 129

Ok I Read Over All Of These Posts And All I Can Say Is I Feel Dumber Because Of Reading It Lmfao Guys You Miss The Point Of This Whole Thing Go To Anets Help Site And Read What It Says About Cheating "it Does Not Exist" Lmfao And As For You Not Considering Anything Not Pvp Related Cheating Your Dead Wrong Lol If We Can Gen 1000 Ecto In 10 Mins Omg Its Only High End Goods Try Not You Ever Seen Gold Sites >>>>> Need I Say More Further More Ask Why After Ecto Went Down In Price Maybe Cause The Economy Was Polluted With No Way To Track It Down... Guys There Is Bugs Much Worse Then Duping That Can End A Game Very Fast Remember That A Game Is Only That Because People Play It And Most Of Gw Is Pve. Pve= Money Thats The Point To Get That High End Gear As U Put It Cheating Is Much More Then Up,down,triangle,l1,r1 Pablo Posted That As Proof Of Cheats Not For Discussion Over The Veracity Or "what Makes A Cheat" Take Sh*t As It Is And Stop Over Thinking Things. O Ya I Felt Left Out On The Pics So This Is From Me

sixacsix

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

HERO

22 Jun 2008 at 15:02 - 130

Pic = Kunavang In Hoh If U Dident Know

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Jun 2008 at 15:23 - 131

Yeah, what's with all of the capitalisation?

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

22 Jun 2008 at 15:28 - 132

IT HAPPENS IF YOU TRY TO TYPE EVERY WORD LIKE THIS and don't apply normal capitalisation rules.

Really, though, cheating is defined as breaking the rules of the game. Using shadowsteps and broken mechanics isn't cheating. However, it is an example of bad game design.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

22 Jun 2008 at 18:03 - 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If you can walk to your target, you can shadowstep to your target, regardless of what's in the way. So yes, it does indeed defy positioning.

No it doesn't Yes I wrote that, A little reading goes a long way. That still doesnt defy positioning.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Jun 2008 at 18:09 - 134

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No it doesn't Yes I wrote that, A little reading goes a long way. That still doesnt defy positioning.

Manitoba, why don't you just try it yourself instead of judging that you're correct on this through words only when this has been proven already?

Find an observe game, or try it out for yourself. On an obs game you're bound to find someone telespiking. Stop being dumb and use your brain. Your position is only determined by the enemy once you use a shadowstep and you defy speedboost and positioning and jump right towards them. How can anyone make it any more clear?

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

22 Jun 2008 at 18:12 - 135

cheating is actually getting stuff that you didn't earn
a perfect example is the GTA series where you can just press a code to get a weaponpack
so if you hack GW and do it to get money you're cheating

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 Jun 2008 at 19:14 - 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No it doesn't Yes I wrote that, A little reading goes a long way. That still doesnt defy positioning.

I guess you'd need to have a little bit of knowledge in PvP to understand how it does. But whatever, if you don't think it does, that's fine. Your opinion only changes the fact in your mind.

joshuarodger

Unbanned

Join Date: Jan 2008

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] -- IGN: Swirly

Mo/

22 Jun 2008 at 19:46 - 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixacsix

Ok I Read Over All Of These Posts And All I Can Say Is I Feel Dumber Because Of Reading It Lmfao Guys You Miss The Point Of This Whole Thing Go To Anets Help Site And Read What It Says About Cheating "it Does Not Exist" Lmfao And As For You Not Considering Anything Not Pvp Related Cheating Your Dead Wrong Lol If We Can Gen 1000 Ecto In 10 Mins Omg Its Only High End Goods Try Not You Ever Seen Gold Sites >>>>> Need I Say More Further More Ask Why After Ecto Went Down In Price Maybe Cause The Economy Was Polluted With No Way To Track It Down... Guys There Is Bugs Much Worse Then Duping That Can End A Game Very Fast Remember That A Game Is Only That Because People Play It And Most Of Gw Is Pve. Pve= Money Thats The Point To Get That High End Gear As U Put It Cheating Is Much More Then Up,down,triangle,l1,r1 Pablo Posted That As Proof Of Cheats Not For Discussion Over The Veracity Or "what Makes A Cheat" Take Sh*t As It Is And Stop Over Thinking Things. O Ya I Felt Left Out On The Pics So This Is From Me

why on earth would you capitalize every word and not use any punctuation. this is completely unreadable.

shadowstepping definitely can't be called cheating just because it's a designed game mechanic that everyone knows about and is able to use. it is definitely abusable though. being able to just jump to an enemy's back line and back out again defies all defensive strategy and positioning (yes manitoba, positioning). it keeps people from being punished for overextending and actually rewards them for it. i don't think it should have ever been allowed into the game. just my 2 cents.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

22 Jun 2008 at 20:31 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I guess you'd need to have a little bit of knowledge in PvP to understand how it does. But whatever, if you don't think it does, that's fine. Your opinion only changes the fact in your mind.

LOL I suggest you learn more about skills before commenting on them. As I said its not defying positioning. If there is no clear path (ie a way you could walk to your target) Then it wont magically put you next to ur target.

Like You said if you had a little bit of knowledge about the skills you'd understand how it works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Manitoba, why don't you just try it yourself instead of judging that you're correct on this through words only when this has been proven already?

Find an observe game, or try it out for yourself. On an obs game you're bound to find someone telespiking. Stop being dumb and use your brain. Your position is only determined by the enemy once you use a shadowstep and you defy speedboost and positioning and jump right towards them. How can anyone make it any more clear?

See the above picture. And take your own advice.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 Jun 2008 at 20:45 - 139

Quote:

LOL I suggest you learn more about skills before commenting on them. As I said its not defying positioning. If there is no clear path (ie a way you could walk to your target) Then it wont magically put you next to ur target.

Funny, because last time I checked, I said as long as you can walk to your target, you can shadowstep to them.

I like how you're implying that I don't know how shadowstepping works, yet we've both said the same thing about how it works.

[DE]

Hugs and Kisses

Join Date: Oct 2005

Scars Meadows

22 Jun 2008 at 20:53 - 140

Lay off Manitoba Arky, sometimes comprehending simple sentences can be very difficult.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

23 Jun 2008 at 00:14 - 141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Funny, because last time I checked, I said as long as you can walk to your target, you can shadowstep to them.

I like how you're implying that I don't know how shadowstepping works, yet we've both said the same thing about how it works.

So go back and read what I posted the first time. But since you prolly wont here it is for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

\

You do ofcourse realize that in order to use shadow stepping you have to have an already clear path to get to your enemy. Not like it works if there on a hill with no bridge and you jump up there because it dont work that way. So no it doest quite defy positioning.

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

23 Jun 2008 at 03:37 - 142

Quote:

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

Yes, I completely agree that shadowstepping is working as intended, and is not in any way cheating.

I said it defies positioning, I didn't say it's cheating. There's quite a difference, don't you think?

I've edited the last part of your post because it was quite ironic, and I'd rather not have people post to laugh at the irony.

Droz the Merciless

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Texas

Order of the Drow [DROW]

N/Mo

23 Jun 2008 at 04:40 - 143

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Texmods(like for GMC) would be considered a cheat, as you are modifying the interface in a way not authorized by the devs to achieve a reward. It helps a lot more having the unmapped areas appear in red, than just watching your percentage and trying to cover an entire area.

Well, whether texmod should be considered a cheat, I leave that up to each individual, but one has to remember that there were other ways to go about finding what areas of the map you needed to clear even before textmod became popular. All you need to do is look at any of the GMC links on Guru to see what I mean.

Another thing you must ask yourself, "Is someone really getting over on me." I mean come on. They aren't taking anything away from you by using RMT, or textmod. So they get the title before you, or buy their FOW armor, so what. You can rest in the satisfaction that you earned your weapon, armor or title. I mean, if you're stupid enough to go buy virtual money w/ real money in order to purchase 300+ ectos so you can buy an Eternal Blade that's you're problem. Me, I'm happy w/ a good ole maxed purple fellblade, or whatever I come across. It's not like the Eternal blade, or "gold" weapons are gonna be "sharper" than my purple or blue. I do understand that the Flame on the Firey Gladius burns hotter if it's on a "Gold" rather than another colored Gladius though, and that it does more damage....[Sarcasm]. Bottom line, these people who use RMT and textmod and that crap aren't getting anything that other players don't. They just get it at a faster pace. In the end, they merely end up cheating themselves out of the experience of the game, and if that is so upsetting to you, quit GW.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

23 Jun 2008 at 05:07 - 144

Eh, I don't feel like going through this whole thread to see if this has been posted. So, yeah, if it has, forgive me or flame me. I care not.

"Cheating" in Guild Wars is difficult to pinpoint because of the type of game it is. By that, I mean that GW supports many different playstyles, and each playstyle can carry its own definition of what is cheating.

In any kind of competitive environment, cheating is gaining some kind of advantage that others cannot acquire in-game, be it from lack of information or use of third-party software. The lack of information I mean is anything that isn't publicized in-game. This covers any bug exploits or hacks. In PvP, it is pretty obvious what that means, but PvE can also be considered a competitive environment when the economy is involved (such as the dupe exploit). However, this does excuse overpowered skills as everyone has access to them (as long as they have the right game) and the information (what the skills do) is readily available.

Guild Wars also supports single-player playstyles, and does so through a typical RPG-style gameplay. In this case, cheating would be considered anything that gives players an advantage against the game itself from an outside source. This includes exploits and hacks, but also includes getting tips from other players and sources such as forums and Wiki. If your goal is to beat the game, you are cheating when you look up hints on how to beat a specific mission or quest.

As far as RMT goes, I would say that is definitely cheating based on my above definitions. It provides an advantage in the competitive economy within the game. Now, sure we can argue how competitive the economy really is in GW, and how money isn't really necessary [to beat the game/be competitive in PvP], but that is another matter entirely. Regardless, the economy still exists, it is competitive, and buying into wealth through means outside the game is flat-out cheating.

Droz the Merciless

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Texas

Order of the Drow [DROW]

N/Mo

23 Jun 2008 at 06:53 - 145

You know, try as I might, I can't get this stupid topic out of my head. Maybe it's because I'm at work and bored, but the question I know pose to you all is...."What about Vent, TS, or other voice communication programs, do you consider those cheating as well." Afterall, don't these programs offer an unfair advantage in the realm of PvP.

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

23 Jun 2008 at 07:06 - 146

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

.."What about Vent, TS, or other voice communication programs, do you consider those cheating as well." Afterall, don't these programs offer an unfair advantage in the realm of PvP.

Yes, they offer an advantage, but it's an advantage everyone can use. TS/Vent is more akin to kiting, weapon swapping and using frenzy to do big damage - just plain smart play

Droz the Merciless

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Texas

Order of the Drow [DROW]

N/Mo

23 Jun 2008 at 07:11 - 147

Well then, isn't textmod a program everyone can use?

Just to clarify, I don't use textmod, and I do use vent, but if one is okay, why isn't the other? They both offer an advantage.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

23 Jun 2008 at 07:12 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

That was me who said it was cheating. Either way I only have the choice to agree with the other people who said it's not. However, you seem to keep on saying that it doesn't defy positioning, yet Arky's disproved you. How is it not defying positioning by being able to spend 5 energy to instantly teleport to said foe?

And Texmod is allowed, by the way. I believe it was stated by Arenanet themselves.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

23 Jun 2008 at 07:32 - 149

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

Well then, isn't textmod a program everyone can use?

Just to clarify, I don't use textmod, and I do use vent, but if one is okay, why isn't the other? They both offer an advantage.

They are both cheating, but "acceptable cheating" in the eyes of the masses and Anet which makes them both "okay."

VOIP software is fine mainly because if Anet had the money and the dev time to implement it into the game, they would. It is a feature that might as well be in-game, but lacks enough support. Texmod is a grey area, but the 'advantage' it gives is not enough to warrant a huge "Cheater!" label. It's still cheating, but it's acceptable because it's low-key.

This is like many exploits being not big enough to be ban-worthy, but something like duping and RMT is. It's all cheating, but there are clearly different levels of severity including what is "acceptable" and what isn't among the community.

Droz the Merciless

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Texas

Order of the Drow [DROW]

N/Mo

23 Jun 2008 at 07:41 - 150

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

23 Jun 2008 at 07:52 - 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That was me who said it was cheating. Either way I only have the choice to agree with the other people who said it's not. However, you seem to keep on saying that it doesn't defy positioning, yet you've copied Arky's words changed them round a bit and said "You're wrong."

And Texmod is allowed, by the way. I believe it was stated by Arenanet themselves.

Um you do realize I said it first.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

23 Jun 2008 at 07:53 - 152

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

VOIP software is fine mainly because if Anet had the money and the dev time to implement it into the game, they would. It is a feature that might as well be in-game, but lacks enough support.

Didn't ANet provide voice communication (vent or ts or whatever) for the players at the GWWC/FC? Allowing it there should tell everyone it's fine to use. The fact that it doesn't have any direct effect on the game itself should be enough.

Quote:

Texmod is a grey area, but the 'advantage' it gives is not enough to warrant a huge "Cheater!" label. It's still cheating, but it's acceptable because it's low-key.

I just can't imagine saying 'It's ok guys, we lost at VoD but it was because they used textmod.' Not having used it, what kind of advantages are we talking about, exactly?

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

23 Jun 2008 at 08:07 - 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I just can't imagine saying 'It's ok guys, we lost at VoD but it was because they used textmod. Not having used it, what kind of advantages are we talking about, exactly?

Not any kind of advantage that would affect PvP in any way, at least not the better players. I could see the 50% markers helping out fledgling monks or necros, and the spirit range radar marker helping out rits to a degree.

The only real advantage I see Texmod giving PvE is that of cartography and the above examples. Not that the cartography title is any kind of advantage, either, in the big scheme of things.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

23 Jun 2008 at 08:13 - 154

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

Using textmod is just as much cheating as having a reference to a fully explored map with the boundaries well defined. Even the first Cartographers had help from each other and photoshop overlay comparisons of the map blurr for the nooks and crannies.

Cheating, basically, is breaking the EULA. Griefing is not usually defined as cheating, but it is still griefing. Buying gold is cheating, but farming gold is not. Textmod isn't cheating and neither is TeamSpeak, but having a macro to leech Fort Aspenwood or c-space bot RA is.

Minime The Shadow

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

England (south)

Order Of Universal Spirit

R/

23 Jun 2008 at 09:20 - 155

really sorry if this topic is over, or i missed something, it took me an hour to read every word up to page 5 so i kinda skipped the rest.

But with RMT, people saying that it doesnt affect others in game, but firstly it is against the EULA, and secondly, it helps them in real life too.

surely exploiting a game to benefit in real life is worse than benefitting in a game? as some have pointed out, while they sleep, they are using illegal botting programs which in turn will give them real money, so go out and spend on the street, maybe giving them advantage over another (unknown to them) GW player in real life. say in an auction, he wins by a few pounds on a bid, which he gained by RMT in a game.

surely that has different immplications all together and shouldnt be allowed?

thanks for reading, any comments welcome

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

23 Jun 2008 at 09:32 - 156

RMT do effect the rest of the game, as they are the most efficient farmers of cash gold, as well as groups that want to steal your account. If RMT's didn't exist, more things would cost less money, and there would be less account theft.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

23 Jun 2008 at 09:34 - 157

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

As pointed very concisely before, there's a fundamental difference between vent and texmod:

vent just adds a means for you to do more; texmod actually does stuff for you.

As pointed out by hallomik's original rule 1, initially some programs are in "grey areas" when they have an unexpected effect on the game. I guess vent did the same in games like Counter-Strike at the beginning but very quickly became accepted by the community, to the point where not having it (even if it's not said in the game box) diminishes your game experience.

I remember a very, very hot debate here on whether texmod cartography was fair or not (can't find it anymore) and over the 2 or 3 last years you could see how the public opinion changed, especially since titles were added (but then people argued that the add-on was also a way to get the last few percents of the map instead of becoming blind starring at their screen). When MMO were created, RMT was clearly outlaw and now it's slowly becoming rampant (it's a plague that the whole MMO industry should fight, see this other thread).

Cheating is clearly not in the obvious "eye of the beholder" (shadow-stepping is unfair to eles! I'm kidding of course...), it's about defining the "grey area" where collective unfairness and individual ethics intersect and collide. And I'll even add that it's the new trend of security attacks, where software bug is the old trend and social engineering is the next trend.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

23 Jun 2008 at 13:43 - 158

Just a note: The Cartography mod is simply an in-game comparison map much like you'd find here on the Guru. I was part of the large debate that ensued because of it, defending it because banning Texmod for the Carto. mod would mean banning everyone's contributions to Guild Wars' modding community.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

23 Jun 2008 at 14:21 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Just a note: The Cartography mod is simply an in-game comparison map much like you'd find here on the Guru. I was part of the large debate that ensued because of it, defending it because banning Texmod for the Carto. mod would mean banning everyone's contributions to Guild Wars' modding community.

I actually shared the same point of view on this thread. (I searched again for the thread but can't find it: anyway remembers words in its title?) The "simply" is bit too much here, because carto mod does actually quite a lot of work for you (ask GMCs!).

The mod community is also the entry point for hacking the game client, and then find-guessing stuff on the server information. (or exceptionally generating such a group that creates a game like Counter-Strike) Since computing game were invented, modding has always had this double-edge nature. Only ethics and recognised "brands" such as texmod create enough trust for companies to embrace them.

I wonder whether the carto mod was seen as cheating when it was created, possibly because: a) people were probably pissed off by the fact that it renders their countless hours of work useless; b) it's a modification to the game and at that time it was new; c) there was no title, so being GMC was pure pleasure. Maybe people who were there, at the very beginning of the carto mod, can say?

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

23 Jun 2008 at 14:23 - 160

Unless I recall, the Cartographer mod was made exclusively for the Carto title, so saying it was there for "simple fullfillment" isn't terribly accurate.

But if ANet is going to classify the Carto mod as cheating, then they better eliminate the in-game link to their Wiki.