Guide: Completely Filling HM Hero Books - Fastest way to max rep - Tips and Advice
RTSFirebat
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen
Concerning Assault on the Stronghold, I asked Tahlkora to cast Life Barrier and Life Bond on the saurus as it went past the devourers, and that was enough to keep it alive until the gate was broken (maybe 2-3 minutes in the mission). Tried a couple of times to make sure that it wasn't a fluke, and I greatly prefer this method, since it works reliably and doesn't require taking any DP.
The bonder isn't even dead weight since you can bond key members of the party, especially other monks and the MM, to avoid surprise spikes. tmak could you provide a bonder code template? I can stick it in the first post then
The bonder isn't even dead weight since you can bond key members of the party, especially other monks and the MM, to avoid surprise spikes. tmak could you provide a bonder code template? I can stick it in the first post then
MMSDome
Trust me goes quicker if you go through here then rather all the way around 
follow the blue line!
follow the blue line!
Xylia
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
tmak could you provide a bonder code template? I can stick it in the first post then
Here's one from pvxwiki:
http://72.55.184.54/wiki/Build:Mo/Me_Barrier_Bond_Monk
[skill]life barrier[/skill][skill]life bond[/skill][skill]balthazar's spirit[/skill][skill]blessed signet[/skill][skill]mantra of inscriptions[/skill](optional)[skill]ether signet[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]
[wiki]signet of devotion[/wiki] would probably be good for the optional skill.
Here's one from pvxwiki:
http://72.55.184.54/wiki/Build:Mo/Me_Barrier_Bond_Monk
[skill]life barrier[/skill][skill]life bond[/skill][skill]balthazar's spirit[/skill][skill]blessed signet[/skill][skill]mantra of inscriptions[/skill](optional)[skill]ether signet[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]
[wiki]signet of devotion[/wiki] would probably be good for the optional skill.
JoeKnowMo
A preliminary attempt at calculating rep points as a function of time spent.
Missions listed in order of time taken to complete them. Mission completion times include the time required to travel to a dungeon/zone or mission trigger of some sort. I'm a little unsure about the time for the last 5 missions as I didn't pay close attention to the clock when doing them.
A Time for Heroes: 3 mins
Curse of the Nornbear: 10 mins
Assault on the Stronghold: 12 mins
Against the Charr: 13 mins
GOLEM: 20 mins
A Gate too far: 20 mins
Blood Washes Blood: 25 mins
Finding the Bloodstone: 35 mins
The Elusive Golemancer: 45 mins
Warband of Brothers: 55 mins
Destructions Depths: 65 mins
The first three missions take 25 mins total and yield 3k rep.
3 Missions: 3000/25 = 120 Points Per Minute (henceforth PPM)
4 Missions: 4500/38 = 118.4 PPM
5 Missions: 6000/58 = 103.4 PPM
6 Missions: 9000/78 = 115.4 PPM
7 Missions: 12000/103 = 116.5 PPM
8 Missions: 15000/138 = 108.7 PPM
9 Missions: 18000/183 = 98.4 PPM
10 Missions: 22500/238 = 94.5 PPM
11 Missions: 30000/303 = 99 PPM
Returns seem to diminish after the first 3 missions. Although, the returns stay pretty constant up to the first 7 missions. Thus, it appears that the optimal number of missions is 3, 4, 6, or 7.
If all 11 missions can be completed in 250 minutes, you would have a PPM of 120. As I said, I'm not 100% certain about my times on the last 5 missions but I feel like the times listed are pretty close to what it took me.
Given the greater chances of wiping or getting slowed down due to deaths on the longer missions, the safest and most consistent method would be to keep doing the first 3 missions. The third mission may be Assault on the Stronghold or Against the Charr depending on the player.
More estimates on time to complete the missions are welcome.
Edit: I'm doing these missions again using a stopwatch and finding that my numbers in this post are exceedingly high. So ignore the calculations herein. Look further down in the thread for more reliable numbers.
Missions listed in order of time taken to complete them. Mission completion times include the time required to travel to a dungeon/zone or mission trigger of some sort. I'm a little unsure about the time for the last 5 missions as I didn't pay close attention to the clock when doing them.
A Time for Heroes: 3 mins
Curse of the Nornbear: 10 mins
Assault on the Stronghold: 12 mins
Against the Charr: 13 mins
GOLEM: 20 mins
A Gate too far: 20 mins
Blood Washes Blood: 25 mins
Finding the Bloodstone: 35 mins
The Elusive Golemancer: 45 mins
Warband of Brothers: 55 mins
Destructions Depths: 65 mins
The first three missions take 25 mins total and yield 3k rep.
3 Missions: 3000/25 = 120 Points Per Minute (henceforth PPM)
4 Missions: 4500/38 = 118.4 PPM
5 Missions: 6000/58 = 103.4 PPM
6 Missions: 9000/78 = 115.4 PPM
7 Missions: 12000/103 = 116.5 PPM
8 Missions: 15000/138 = 108.7 PPM
9 Missions: 18000/183 = 98.4 PPM
10 Missions: 22500/238 = 94.5 PPM
11 Missions: 30000/303 = 99 PPM
Returns seem to diminish after the first 3 missions. Although, the returns stay pretty constant up to the first 7 missions. Thus, it appears that the optimal number of missions is 3, 4, 6, or 7.
If all 11 missions can be completed in 250 minutes, you would have a PPM of 120. As I said, I'm not 100% certain about my times on the last 5 missions but I feel like the times listed are pretty close to what it took me.
Given the greater chances of wiping or getting slowed down due to deaths on the longer missions, the safest and most consistent method would be to keep doing the first 3 missions. The third mission may be Assault on the Stronghold or Against the Charr depending on the player.
More estimates on time to complete the missions are welcome.
Edit: I'm doing these missions again using a stopwatch and finding that my numbers in this post are exceedingly high. So ignore the calculations herein. Look further down in the thread for more reliable numbers.
tekDragon
Very nice.... although I'm not so great at rushing. Chances are I'd go a bit slower.
One factor that is more important for many many people is managing the boredom of the grind. If we assume you're maxing a title. Let's assume you're starting from r6, which is entirely likely after having completed your first NM loop and turning in a book. Disregard for a moment that it might be faster to do stuff in NM until r8.
If you have about 50k points it will take you 36-37 repetitions to max your title while only completing the fastest 3 missions. Otherwise it will take you about 3 reps and 10 missions to complete if you're actually filling the book.
I'm not as grind happy as some people so it's far more likely that I'd complete more of the book for fewer reps even if it does end up taking me a bit more time.
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If I find some time this weekend I'll try and complete a book with my Ranger to add to Joe's numbers
One factor that is more important for many many people is managing the boredom of the grind. If we assume you're maxing a title. Let's assume you're starting from r6, which is entirely likely after having completed your first NM loop and turning in a book. Disregard for a moment that it might be faster to do stuff in NM until r8.
If you have about 50k points it will take you 36-37 repetitions to max your title while only completing the fastest 3 missions. Otherwise it will take you about 3 reps and 10 missions to complete if you're actually filling the book.
I'm not as grind happy as some people so it's far more likely that I'd complete more of the book for fewer reps even if it does end up taking me a bit more time.
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If I find some time this weekend I'll try and complete a book with my Ranger to add to Joe's numbers
mrlopes
I've choosed doing 7 missions, in each book trying to avoid the boredom of doing only the fastest.
Another thing i do, is finish each mission 2 times in a row, i have 2 books of course, that help me to cut in the time with the setup of the party and the skills needed for each mission.
I don't use to take note of times but it seems to me that the, Finding the Bloodstone, could be faster than 35 minutes, just put some run skill in the bar, flag the h/h party so they just don't follow you, and run to the entry, after 1 or 2 times you will learn the patrol paths, most of the times you will need to use the run skill only once.
Also Destructions Depths is faster then 65 minutes, and it's a fun mission to do, at least for me
Another thing i do, is finish each mission 2 times in a row, i have 2 books of course, that help me to cut in the time with the setup of the party and the skills needed for each mission.
I don't use to take note of times but it seems to me that the, Finding the Bloodstone, could be faster than 35 minutes, just put some run skill in the bar, flag the h/h party so they just don't follow you, and run to the entry, after 1 or 2 times you will learn the patrol paths, most of the times you will need to use the run skill only once.
Also Destructions Depths is faster then 65 minutes, and it's a fun mission to do, at least for me
arcanemacabre
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSDome
follow the blue line!Quote:
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Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo
3 Missions: 3000/25 = 120 Points Per Minute (henceforth PPM)
4 Missions: 4500/38 = 118.4 PPM 5 Missions: 6000/58 = 103.4 PPM 6 Missions: 9000/78 = 115.4 PPM 7 Missions: 12000/103 = 116.5 PPM 8 Missions: 15000/138 = 108.7 PPM 9 Missions: 18000/183 = 98.4 PPM 10 Missions: 22500/238 = 94.5 PPM 11 Missions: 30000/303 = 99 PPM This is some great information, Joe! Thanks! So just doing the three fastest yields the highest points per minute. Awesome. 
Missmelady
Ill add that to my post after we get some confirming screenshots. I am also planning on seeing exactly how fast I can fill a book tonight and I will make sure that I keep a watch handy for timing purposes. Along with me completing a new book I will also be posting screen shots of each one with dots showing my routes. I will also post a link to a build that I run for everything but Time For Heros.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10242585
Burst Cancel
Agree on the Nornbear - I was puzzled as to why you'd take the long way around when I first saw that map.
I'd also like to point out that when you're getting down to small differences in efficiency like a few PPM, the variances between players (and their professions) is going to make a bigger difference in efficiency than anything else. If you look at the way the book points are distributed: 03 missions: 3000/3 = 1000 per mission 04 missions: 4500/4 = 1125 per mission 05 missions: 6000/5 = 1200 per mission 06 missions: 9000/6 = 1500 per mission 07 missions: 12000/7 = 1714.29 per mission 08 missions: 15000/8 = 1875 per mission 09 missions: 18000/9 = 2000 per mission 10 missions: 22500/10 = 2250 per mission 11 missions: 30000/11 = 2727.27 per mission However, what might be more instructive is how many additional points you get for doing another mission: 3 missions: baseline 1000 per mission 4 or 5 missions: +1500 each 6-9 missions: +3000 each 10 missions: +4500 11 missions: +7500 In other words, the first 2 missions are worth the same number of points as the first 3. EACH of the 6th through 9th missions are worth the same number of points as the first 3. The 10th missions is worth 1.5 times the first 3. And the final mission is worth 2.5 times the first 3. It should then be easy to figure out whether it's worth doing more missions or not. Most obviously, the whole book is worth 10 times as much as just doing the first 3 missions. So, if you can complete 11 missions in less time than doing the first 3 missions 10 times ...
Cherng Butter
GOLEM takes 20 minutes?
BlueNovember
^ if not less.
Originally Posted by Longasc
Quote: ..
1. Nornbear 2. Golem 3. Assault on the Stronghold 4. Against the Charr 5. A Time for Heroes and hand in the book. All the listed quests hardly take time. But would it be more efficient than a full run of all quests? Here's an idea; stock pile such a book (those 5 quests completed) then wait for a double book weekend =).
JoeKnowMo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherng Butter
GOLEM takes 20 minutes?
I'll do a HM book next week and use a stopwatch so I get accurate times. GOLEM probably took me over 15 minutes (which I rounded up to 20) due to waiting for the kilns to heat up and having to pull the last mob.
My numbers are approximates, but I really wanted to get the ball rolling on the discussion of efficiency so I put them out there anyway. Next week I'll post back with precise times. I'll be more prepared for the missions as well so I should be able to get through them faster. A quick note on Destructions Depths for the guide: Move to the middle of the bridge and pull mobs once the first mob on the top of the hill appears during the Norn part of the mission.
JoeKnowMo
I used a stopwatch to time the missions this time around so I have more accurate data. I also didn't waste much time being lost or getting my party wiped due to bad aggro.
Time for Heroes: 3 mins with Pain Inverter and a hex heavy team. Curse of the Nornbear: 9 mins using a shorter route than the one I'd previously been taking. Thanks to MMSDome and Zerulus for pointing this out. GOLEM: 10 mins. It took around 6 mins for the kilns to heat up. The Bringers of Destruction can be pulled without aggroing the Destroyer Spawns. Against the Charr: 11 mins. Kept my team flagged at the left devourer while I trailed the Armored Saurus using Shield of Absorption, Shield of Regeneration, and Gift of Health. Assault on the Stronghold: 12 mins. The end boss can be pulled through the wall without aggroing the few remaining Charr to the West of his position. Blood washes Blood: 19 mins. I flagged the h&h at the start of Bjora Marches. I used the Ursan running skill. Thanks to my high energy set I only lost the Ursan form once, about halfway through Bjora. I wiped 2 or 3 times at the end thanks to overaggroing the Charr mobs. Without that, I might have been done in 16 or 17 mins. A Gate too Far: I forgot to turn on the stopwatch until I arrived at the Raven Shrine on level 1. After that point the mission took 14 mins. I estimate that it took about 5 mins to get to the Raven Shrine. So that would make it a total of 19 mins for this mission. We had a near wipe at the beginning of level 3 and lost time rezzing everyone. I'd have saved about 2 mins without the wipe... so my guess is 17 mins for this mission. The build I used is my variation of Sabway. I take 2 mesmer interrupts each on the MM and SS. I run Spoil Victor on the third necro with the rest of the bar being Restoration. I fill the rest of the party out with the blood, illusion, interrupt, and protection hench. I used my monk with a hybrid build and used about 2-3 pve skills per mission such as Pain Inverter, Ursan Blessing, and Necrosis. Please ignore my previous calculation regarding Rep Points Per Minute. It appears I overestimated the time on several missions. If I exclude the few lost minutes due to wipes or near wipes, these 7 missions take about 80 mins. Which gives us: 12,000/80 = 150 Points Per Minute. This is better than the PPM for the first 3 missions: 3,000/22 = 136.36 PPM I'll post my times for the last 4 missions sometime during the coming week. If it takes around 2 hours total to do the remaining 4 missions, the PPM will remain around 150. I have a feeling that I grossly overestimated the time on those 4 missions so we'll just have to wait until some more precise numbers are in from me or someone else before we can conclude what the most efficient method is.
Longasc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
Someone posted 3, 10 and 12 minutes for the fastet 3 quests. So let's say 25 minutes x 10 = 250 minutes. 11 missions: 3 Time for Heroes 10 Nornbear 12 GOLEM 13 Assault 12 Charr 20 Gate Too Far 25 Blood Washes 35 Bloodstone 45 Golemancer 55 Warband 65 Destructions Depths = 270 minutes I think Destruction can be done much faster, but well. For the sake of diversity I might still recommend doing the full book. The pity is that the loot in the story missions is pretty bad and that there are no chests.
Burst Cancel
Well, as I said, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. Looking at those numbers, you'll notice:
First 3 missions = 25 minutes = 3000 points. + 4th and 5th missions = +25 minutes = 6000 points (+3000) + 6th mission = +20 minutes = 9000 points (+3000) <- this is more efficient + 7th mission = +25 minutes = 12000 points (+3000) etc. In other words, since you know the number of points you get for doing each additional mission, you can compare that against the time it would take you to do the first 3 missions again, and figure out whether it's worth doing or not. Again, individual completion times are going to vary based on player skill, profession/build, etc. So what may be an efficiency breakpoint for one person is not necessarily going to be a breakpoint for anyone else. Destro Maniak
How long does it takes to max out NM books cause I already not at r8 in asura(78k rep point)and r2 in vanguard, norn. I am hoping for a double rep event in few weeks so I am not going to turn them in. So is it better to do NM books when we can use them?
tekDragon
I might be mistaken, but if I recall correctly the last time they had a double points weekend for GWEN that didnt apply to the points from turning in books. Only the points from the bounties and possibly quest rewards.
Destro Maniak
*dreams fail*
*suicides*
Missmelady
Updated My confirmed times for the missions as of right now. Bottom of the starting post! These times are done with 2 other people. So 3 humans and 5 heros.
Missmelady
Making Videos for each of the areas once my guildies and friends hop on. Each one will have a link to you tube with a video of how we did it. I'm not going to mod the video in anyway so you will see the whole run in real time.
Hexanon
This isn't much, but each mission also has bonus points for completing it. (About 150 ?)
In addition, as you will have to kill on your way to some of the quests, take it a bit slower (Extra 5-10 minutes won't kill you) and pick up a shrine bonus. This will nett you a few extra points, and if you're like me - spending just a little bit more time killing on the way to the quest makes it a bit more fun. Also be VERY careful about running missions multiple times one after the other with more than 1 copy in your inventory. 1 Slip-up and it dosn't count. I suggest placing the extra copies into storage so that you're sure the one in inv. is the one without the entry.
RTSFirebat
Missmelady has given permission for me to "reboot" the whole thread once they supplied the videos. There's a lot of waffle and other crap that needs to be complied into the first OP.
I of course will take zero credit for any of it.
Daenara I've been consistently getting either 7 or 8 minutes for Curse of the Nornbear, I tend to go quicker when I've got minions at the end though! With my husband doing it 2 player/6 heroes we do 6 minute runs. I recommend manually using your hero runs skills, as my Hayda loves to use fall back whenever she feels like. ><
Wakka
Quote:
I recommend manually using your hero runs skills, as my Hayda loves to use fall back whenever she feels like. ><
She'll use it basically when anyone of your party members is moving ^^ so your right its prob best to disable it on her skill bar and use it yourself.
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Oso Minar
Good stuff. If I find any tips I'll let y'all know.
Edited: Thank you, Jagged! This might be worth mentioning in the first post, so people don't go hunting all around the world for the quests. Jagged
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
This is a wonderful guide. The only thing that I can think of to make it more new-person friendly would be to add in exactly where one "re-does" the quest, where the quest is taken from, etc. When you're going through the game once, it seems very linear, but once you're done and have forgotten the exact path, getting to all the quests may be tricky.
Just a quick little blurb in each quest stating who/where it's picked up from and what town you should leave from would be immensely helpful to what's already a nice little guide. Good stuff. You can pick up all the primary quests from the Scrying Pool in the HoM. Pretty simple You can also use the Books as a guide. It's what I use: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Hero%27s_Handbook monolito
I dont get it!How can You return a HM book with only 4 missions done if wiki says u can return it with min.8primaries done?Besides 4 primaries should give way less points than 12k.So whats up with all that?
Abedeus
Because after completing the plot you always have... 4? quests already finished. Then you have to do 4 other quests (Great Destroyer is the easiest one) and then you can return, or do rest of the quests.
greywolf31
Each Book given has 5 Quests pre-filled... Provided you have already done them.
You only need 3 more to get the first level of Rep points. 2000-NM 3000-HM =)
greywolf31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexanon
Also be VERY careful about running missions multiple times one after the other with more than 1 copy in your inventory. 1 Slip-up and it dosn't count. I suggest placing the extra copies into storage so that you're sure the one in inv. is the one without the entry.
The "Quest" will get logged into the book that is highest or foremost in your inventory, so you could have 5 or 6 books in your inventory, just change their position accordingly. I have verified this...
However, you will need to utilize your Storage to acquire new/multiple books. I have found, that if you have your storage open you can still use it even if you are away from it, unlike the merchants or other vendors. -T monolito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Because after completing the plot you always have... 4? quests already finished. Then you have to do 4 other quests (Great Destroyer is the easiest one) and then you can return, or do rest of the quests.
Ok,so what ur tryin to say that if I take a new book it will always have 4 quests filled providing I already finished the GWEN story?
greywolf31
5 Actually... Yes.
In the Hero's Handbook. 1. The Beginning of the End 2. The Missing Vanguard 6. Northern Allies 10.The Knowledgeable Asura 14.Against the Destroyers
Missmelady
It is actually still faster for me anyway to max the book. Btw Videos will be uploaded as soon as I figure out how to compile this crap....
mrlopes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged
You can pick up all the primary quests from the Scrying Pool in the HoM. Pretty simple
It's not necessary to pick up the quests! If you know where each of them will begin you can go directly there.
Ivan Darklord
I'd like to see a video, and thanks for the info ^^
Jagged
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlopes
It's not necessary to pick up the quests! If you know where each of them will begin you can go directly there.
That's true, but I think they were concerned b/c they didn't remember where the quests started. After the elventy billionth time doing it, i guess you remember
greywolf31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged
After the elventy billionth time doing it, i guess you remember
ROFL - Oh Yeah, it gets burned in real good...
isisaset
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen
Concerning Assault on the Stronghold, I asked Tahlkora to cast Life Barrier and Life Bond on the saurus as it went past the devourers, and that was enough to keep it alive until the gate was broken (maybe 2-3 minutes in the mission). Tried a couple of times to make sure that it wasn't a fluke, and I greatly prefer this method, since it works reliably and doesn't require taking any DP.
The bonder isn't even dead weight since you can bond key members of the party, especially other monks and the MM, to avoid surprise spikes. Was helping a friend and our group couldn't find a bonder, so... we assigned a healer-monk to the Saurus. Knowing how wrong that can go... (poor dead monk)... I used a Rit Lord hero - flagged Razah in between the Devourers, just a bit closer to the gate but still out of range, and had him cast his usual spirits to keep the monk assigned to the Saurus alive. Worked like a charm since his spirits were protecting the entire pug in addition to the monk.
tekDragon
Alright I completed a HM handbook this weekend and kept track of my times to add to the mix.
I went though it as a BHA ranger and pretty much used the Necro team the whole way (slightly tweaked). Only departed from that build for A Time for Heroes to include more heal party action. Henchies were usually Monk, Monk, Herta and Cynn. My times are slow because I wasnt really recklessly rushing... I was also quite inebriated for the first part and hungover for the second. So these times might do quite well to give an idea for people who are really casually trying to fill books. Times include the travel time to the quest site if/where applicable Nornbear --> 10mins A gate too far--> 22mins Blood washes Blood --> 22mins Overall the Norn quests are easy enough, and the "shortcuts" as discussed in the forum are pretty straightforward. Ignore the shrine in nornbear, go for the spawns. Put Ursan in your skill bar for Blood... cut straight to the camp's south gate after capping the shrine in Jaga. Against the Charr --> 13mins For against the Charr I cut straight to the camp without doing either of the nearby bonuses. Probably could have been a bit faster but I too time tno to over pull in the camp. Warband of brothers --> 49mins Warband of brothers took me a little longer than it should have because I forgot to pack Frozen soil and it had been a while so I took a few wrong turns. I could easily see myself cutting the time to 40 mins. Dont bother killing all the spiders at the zone from the 2nd to 3rd floor... just spwan the boss and let HnH engage while you make for the door. Assault --> 10mins For the assault I use the resurrection inside the camp tactic I described in an earlier post. Piece of cake, could have been 2 mins faster if I'd spawned the destroyers properly. Lab Space --> 31mins Traveling to lab space is annoying as hell. I would swap out of the necro team for the dungeon to make it go faster, but then I'd have issues in even getting there so I leave it as is. Which essentially means my MM only spams aegis in the dungeon but the foes there are easy anyway. Bloodstone --> 15mins Getting to the bloodstone dungeon is easy enough. If you're lucky you can sneak by all the patrols and not even fight. The only important thing to remember is that you can pull the Ettin on the second floor pretty far away from the undead spawns... and that wen you kill him they all go. GOLEM --> 10mins For the GOLEM mission I split my team with the necros defending one side and me and the henchies defending the other. Destruction's Depths --> 50mins I sucked it in this one... I over pulled when fighting with the Norn and Fighting the disc which probably added a good 10 mins to my run... I could easily see myself being able to do it in 40 mins. (probably should have waited till I was done eating lunch too...) A time for Heroes --> 2mins Well there are a bunch of guides on how to beat this fast. I replace 2 necros with Heal party/LoD monks, + Mehnlo. Bring pain inverter... not even sure the MM made a difference for me because all the minions were long dead by the time I got to the actual destroyer. Cast pain inverter, interrupt lava wave.... done. Total run time = 234 mins, make that a flat 4hrs if you include merching time and all that. Which adds up to 7.5k/h So there you have it... If I prepared more and actually bothered swapping builds and actually focused I could surely see making times approach 3.35-3.5 hours... but it's not worth the bother for me at this point. I rather do it nice and easy while chatting with guildies. tekDragon
Oh yeah and someone needs to own up to the first post... there's a lot of updating to be done. The nornbear map at least needs to be swapped for the actual optimal route... this makes us look bad.
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