My paragon's buddies

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

For just about every area I've cleared on hardmode including dungeons, 3/4ths of vanquishing, and missions I've brought along the following heroes. The only area I encountered with some difficulty was vanquishing Joko's Domain; I lacked adequate hex removal at the time.

Player Bar:


Mash Save Yourselves! as it fills, mash your attack skills as they recharge, mash There's Nothing To Fear! as it recharges; such a simple bar with such effective results. If you like to maintain the +100 AL cast Ebon Battle Standard of Honor only when Dark Fury is in effect and Save Yourselves! is filled. This will allow you use the shout, drop the ward, and refill the shout before it wears off even with a lower rank in your Kurzick or Luxon title. Cycle Focused Anger and For Great Justice! while the other is not in effect to maintain a constant double rate of adrenaline gain.

Unfortunately to make this build work to its fullest you'll need to grind out a max Agent title and at least rank 3 in Luxon or Kurzick.

Weapon Sets:


The shields are the main focus here. 15 armour level with either 7 in command or motivation allows you to spec your Spear Mastery to 14, Leadership to 12, while still achieving as much defense as possible with the remaining attribute points. If you cannot find a shield like that adjust your attributes as necessary; 13 spear, 12 leadership, 9 command/motivation.

Main set will be the vampiric and +10 vs. fire setup. As a paragon you are not targeted that often. Most of the damage you'll receive is typically AoE commonly found in the fire magic tree. That and because you'll typically find fire in a lot of the endgame areas (Fissure of Woe, Underworld, etc...).

If you're expecting blind you'll want to sit on the reduce blind shield set naturally. As the only one in the party that can really take damage I don't want to be sitting on my vampiric weapon either. In which case you'll want to either use Sundering or Furious on the spear in that slot. Normally elemental would be the better choice as you could swap to it when dealing with warriors but because this setup has Order of Pain on the hero you lose some of your damage against normal foes. I stick with Sundering since I won't be blind all the time and I don't lose all that much damage compared to Vampiric.

In the other two slots you'll want a staff and something to pull with. Alem's Remedy is really easy to find because everyone who maxed their LB title during Requiem of a Brain and A Show of Force will have one. In the event you die you'll want something you can swap to for putting Aggressive Refrain back up quickly. Or if you've built a lot of DP because you're bad and need the extra energy for whatever reason. Any longbow works for pulling I just stole one off my hero (hence why it is customized in that shot).

Healing and Offensive Support:


When playing as an SY paragon this character can be used in place of a monk in the typical two monk backline. It provides strong healing support as well as a great boost to all of your physical's damage, maintaining Order of Pain and Dark Fury as often as it can.

You'll want to equip this hero with a staff with two 20% faster cast mods for blood.

General Morgahn; Main Setup:


Typically I slotted a more defensive setup on this hero's bar but with SY pumping out so much defense it was redundant. Originally I used Anthem of Weariness and Defensive Anthem which are now replaced with Anthem of Flame and Stunning Strike. Stunning Strike is my favored elite choice given the spammable nature of the skill with Dark Fury. Monks were previously an annoyance on hard mode. Hexbreaker Aria benefits quite well from Dark Fury as well, allowing your casters to focus hex removal on the physicals while staying clean themselves.

Anthem of Envy I prefer over Go For The Eyes! for a few reasons. Against higher level enemies and armoured foes, which become more common in hardmode, scoring a critical isn't very noticable. +damage skills become stronger in comparison. With the 4 second recharge now the skill barely benefits from Dark Fury as well, even though Anthem of Envy has a 6 adrenaline cost it can be used more often as it lacks a recharge. Finally it pushes the enemies faster towards achieving a Deep Wound via Merciless Spear slotted on Hayda's bar.

General Morgahn; Hex Heavy Setup:


Hexes are very spammy in hardmode. Slotting one Expel Hexes barely helped in the past. I have learned not to make that same mistake again.

General Morgahn; 4 man setup:


I've been vanquishing the four man zones with no monks, just these heroes. Almost all of the heals are party wide so it makes sense to divide the damage up to prevent those heals from being wasted. Angelic Bond does this nicely, and is especially useful when enemies start to attack me as I lack the +100 AL boost. Spear Swipe replaces Stunning Strike from the main setup. Although there is a lot of offense completely shutting down one monk can make a world of difference, especially against the grawls.

With only one adrenaline chant on this bar it is best to disable Spear Swipe and Angelic Bond. They can become too costly when the energy return on Anthem of Envy is only 4.

Hayda; Main Setup:


Song of Purification does an excellent job of cleaning conditions with Dark Fury. Spear of Redemption is mostly there as a hope that it will remove blind if she hasn't built adrenaline for a Song of Purification. In 4 man zones however I replace Spear of Redemption with Chorus of Restoration for an extra heal on the paragons.

You can probably play this build with less Leadership and more Spear Mastery as the bar is mostly adrenaline skills. Just remember that her Aggressive Refrain is shorter than yours and Morgahn's.

Hayda; Hex Heavy Setup:


Minor tweaks to deal with an area more focused on hexes than conditions. Nothing special to take note of.

Builds at a quick glance (thanks to Natural Sugar for typing it out):

[build name="SY! Player" prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Command=6+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Vicious Attack][Swift Javelin][Focused Anger]["For Great Justice!"]["There's Nothing to Fear!"]["Save Yourselves!" (Kurzick)][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Aggressive Refrain][/build]

[build name="Orders" prof=D/N Mysticism=10+1+1 WindPrayers=11+1 BloodMagic=10][Arcane Zeal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Mystic Healing][Vow of Piety][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention][Dwayna's Touch][/build]

[build name="Morgahn Main" prof=P/W Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Vicious Attack][Stunning Strike][Anthem of Envy][Anthem of Flame][Hexbreaker Aria][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Morgahn Hex" prof=P/Mo Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Wild Throw][Swift Javelin][Anthem of Flame][Hexbreaker Aria][Empathic Removal][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Morgahn 4-Man" prof=P/W Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Vicious Attack][Spear Swipe][Anthem of Envy][Anthem of Flame][Angelic Bond][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Hayda Main" prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Command=0+1 Motivation=10+1+1 SpearMastery=10+1][Wild Throw][Spear of Redemption][Merciless Spear][Aria of Zeal][Song of Purification][Mending Refrain][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Hayda Hex" prof=P/Mo Leadership=11+1 Command=0+1 Motivation=10+1+1 SpearMastery=10+1][Wild Throw][Merciless Spear][Hexbreaker Aria][Aria of Zeal][Empathic Removal][Mending Refrain][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

Alternate builds for the player character (original post here):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shru
Ranger:[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12 expertise=12][distracting shot][save yourselves][triple shot][dual shot][rapid fire][ebon battle standard of honor][infuriating heat][resurrection signet][/build]

Assassin:[build name="SY Sin" prof=A/W criticalstrikes=12+1 daggermastery=12+1+1][Golden Phoenix Strike][death blossom][Moebius Strike][Save yourselves][critical agility][critical defense][critical eye][for great justice][/build]
with the attack speed of this guy, you're safe to drop [for great justice]and[golden phoenix strike] in favor of a better lead combo, something like [golden lotus strike]+[golden fang strike] or [golden fox strike]+[golden fang strike]

Dervish:[build name="SY Derv" prof=D/W Mysticism=12+1 ScytheMastery=12+1+1][protector's strike][eremite's attack][save yourselves][aura of holy might][heart of fury][for great justice][avatar of lyssa][eternal aura][/build]or mel derv[build name="SY Derv" prof=D/W Mysticism=12+1 ScytheMastery=12+1+1][wearying strike][save yourselves][aura of holy might][heart of fury][zealous renewal][for great justice][avatar of melandru][eternal aura][/build]

Warrior:[build name="SY War" prof=W/P Swordsmanship=12+1+1 Strength=12+1][Dragon Slash][brawling headbutt][steelfang slash][Save yourselves][flail][enraging charge][enduring harmony][for great justice][/build]

Necro:[SY Nec;OAFCQsxkKEU1NYngoHWxVBGH](thanks go to Moloch Vein for the build)


Ritualist:
And currently playing with the rit builds, I don't have a rit to test energy costs and such so no actual builds yet.
for Spirit's strength I've been toying with sword and axe builds using some of these:
[brawling headbutt] [steelfang slash] [whirlwind attack] [cyclone axe][dismember] [spirit's strength] [sight beyond sight] [save yourselves] [for great justice] [weapon of aggression] [great dwarf armor]

and a channeling caster similair in play style to the N/W
[weapon of fury] [save yourselves] [spirit rift] [splinter weapon] [ancestor's rage] [for great justice] [flurry] [warmonger's weapon]


I know some of these builds aren't optimal (help with mel derv and rits please?) but these are all just suggestions and examples. Post anything you think should be changed on them, and I'll update them as I see new and more powerful ones emerging. NOTE: The attached file contains the details within the pictures if they're not loading.

??Ripskin

??Ripskin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

Mo/

Oh I wish I could do awesome setups like these with my monk..

And very nice, Racthoh, or whatever your name is.

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

gz, finally some real competition for sab ^^
you may want to add the template codes in the thread as well =)

Blu

Blu

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2007

Michigan

Blades of Burning Shadows [GoDT]

R/

Used the other paragon team you suggested awhile ago and it was amazing ^ ^.

Lil Ferk

Lil Ferk

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2007

Texas

[GORD]

P/

Very nice i'll be sure to try this

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Nice guide rac, I just have one question for you.

If you have a friend who can come with you in an 8 man area, or if it's you+ henchman what hench would you bring with you? Any ideas for more heroes to group up with those 3 either for more synergy.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
If you have a friend who can come with you in an 8 man area, or if it's you+ henchman what hench would you bring with you? Any ideas for more heroes to group up with those 3 either for more synergy. Basically as much physical damage as you can get. Earthshaker warriors are pretty awesome and I love them to death, the problem is they have troubles staying on target and tend to run back and forth at the first sign of AoE damage. Rangers are the best route I've found so far, at least from what I can tell from using the henchmen as I typically have been H/Hing a lot on my paragon. Barrage and Broadhead Arrow are pretty awesome. Splinter Weapon is also a good idea. If you can get a second human, either a necro or an ele with Great Dwarf Weapon to toss around.

I like the death henchmen in Cantha for Putrid Explosion.

Tyria I've mostly been clearing with one person, and since most of the areas are 6 man, the last slot goes to Alesia. 8 man areas, dual Charge is awesome.

Elona I like Herta for the Ward Against Melee. Sogolon just because he's a ranged physical and can take advantage of the ward + order, although his elite is somewhat wasted.

EOTN; Zho, Aidan, and Herta for reasons already mentioned.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Nice update Racthoh

Quick question - why don't you use [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] ?
Is it because damage mitigation is already over the top with TNTF and SY?

I run a noobier defensive build on my toon to keep my target burning and the adrenaline pumping -

Aggressive Refrain
Focused Anger
For Great Justice!
Blazing Spear
Spear of Fury
They're on Fire!
Save Yourselves!
There's Nothing to Fear!

ToF is the core of the build for the extra damage reduction and to maintain AG between mobs. SoF is for a quick adrenal spike to keep up the Blazing Spear and SY spam. I also slot [skill=text]Finale of Restoration[/skill] onto the Motivation hero for some impressive over-healing

I haven't done any end-game vanquishing yet (easily vanquished areas thus far with this build) and will likely change to Rac's build when i become more attuned to the Paragon. It's working well for my needs while i learn the subtleties of managing appropriate adrenaline, healing and damage mitigation levels.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Now the only thing I will have to test, is what 3 heroes and builds can synergize with these 2 paragon+ order hero the best for general pve/ vanquishing/ whatever.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

I've been experimenting with two accounts for a one human, six hero team build. I've been running Sabway on the other account which works fine, but i'd prefer greater synergy.

A few skills i've been toying with are [skill=text]Mark of Rodgort[/skill] for the obvious tie-in with "They're on Fire!" as i usually equip heroes with pre-order fire damage weapons (Fiery Sunspear / Hourglass Staff etc). [skill=text]Splinter Weapon[/skill] and [skill=text]Ancestors' Rage[/skill] are always handy. [skill=text]Broad Head Arrow[/skill] and [skill=text]Barrage[/skill] are other obvious options. Maybe [skill=text]Warmonger's Weapon[/skill] could be useful for some interrupts.

Does [skill=text]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill] benefit from Ebon Battle Standard of Honor? It'd be hard to drop a Minion Bomber in favour of a Bone Fiend MM, i'm just curious about the damage potential.

If i could have 7 heroes i'd take 2 Paragons, 1 D/N Orders, 1 E/Rt MB/RI Warder, 1 N/Rt Healer, 1 N/Mo MM and a BHA Ranger. Given i can only take 6 i'd drop the BHA or the Warder... or both for the SS :/

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

I use Anthem Of Flame and Spear of Fury. Instead of Ebon Standard of Honor (since I havn't gotten that far) I use "They're on Fire!". It works pretty good, esspecually with my Vekk running an SF build, but I find myself having a severe overabundance of energy that I feel should go somewhere. perhaps that's why people use two spear attacks :P

I'm also running 16 leadership, which I suppose can be toned down. I run Tactics instead of command or motivation right now since I don't have any good sheilds for paragon req :/

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Quick question - why don't you use [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] ?
Is it because damage mitigation is already over the top with TNTF and SY?
They're On Fire! would just be extra reduction that I don't feel is necessary. Pretty much the only reason I'm taking There's Nothing To Fear! is for my own safety and the heal. Save Yourselves! is doing all the work. It also means I have to slot a reliable source of burning and I generally dislike eles save the few humans I get to play with who know the profession very well. But in those instances I don't have my heroes anyway.

Quote: It'd be hard to drop a Minion Bomber in favour of a Bone Fiend MM, i'm just curious about the damage potential. They should receive the bonus but there are two problems. There is no guarentee they will stay in the ward that well, even though I've never seen a minion kite there is no way to predict their behavior. Second they'll attack random targets. The benefits of the physical buffs present in this build are that you can overwhelm the biggest threat of the group very quickly. Minion masters throw around random damage, not my preferred style of play.

If I wanted a necromancer it would have to be human with a bar like this:

Barbs
Great Dwarf Weapon
Finish Him!
You Move Like A Dwarf!
Rend Enchantments/Rip Enchantment (depending on the area)
Signet of Lost Souls
Splinter Weapon
Offering of Spirit {E}

Just off the top of my head. Actually that's a pretty sexy bar. WT B necro friend.

Everything that a necromancer is good for becomes overshadowed by SY unless you're abusing Soul Reaping in some way.

Quote:
Maybe Warmonger's Weapon could be useful for some interrupts. Stunning Strike with Dark Fury will achieve the same thing PvE-wise.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

I've been following the evolution of your (and others') Paragon team builds and have also realised the problems.

It is very easy to overprotect in a Paragon team, and end up with less damage output. While not usually a problem, it just slows down the game with redundant defence.

However, perhaps as a better player than I am, you may not have encountered the situation of the player himself dying. That kinda removes quite a lot of defence from the whole team, if your Morgahn is solely there to output damage. I try to spread defensive and offensive responsibilites between myself and Morgahn to mitigate this. But it happens very seldom, and the team recovers from it quite fast.

I will definitely look at Empathic Removal, which I think is your main change in this version. Soothing Images still cramps my style.

Why is there less Swift Javelin this time round? I must say that Spear of Redemption is a cool idea for removing Blind.

And what is your opinion of the Orders guy carrying a Spear and a Blood focus vs. a staff?

Looking forward to the next improvement.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
They're On Fire! would just be extra reduction that I don't feel is necessary. --snip -- It also means I have to slot a reliable source of burning...
Figured as much, i'm over-prot'ing. I'm not keen taking an Ele squishy along just to apply burning, a little AoE (ineffective in end-game) and redundant wards. But it can replace Herta and Cynn in 2 player + hero parties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh The benefits of the physical buffs present in this build are that you can overwhelm the biggest threat of the group very quickly. Minion masters throw around random damage, not my preferred style of play. Good answer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh
Everything that a necromancer is good for becomes overshadowed by SY unless you're abusing Soul Reaping in some way. Another good answer. N/Rt FTW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Stunning Strike with Dark Fury will achieve the same thing PvE-wise. d'Oh! It pays to pay attention to the updated build

Thanks, you've given me something to chew on.

[edit] Anyone tried an Incendiary Arrows ranger hero (on the second player)? Could provide a healthy supply of both interrupts and burning...

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsie
It is very easy to overprotect in a Paragon team, and end up with less damage output. While not usually a problem, it just slows down the game with redundant defence.
This is the main reason I reposted the builds I was using. There was far too much defense with the original setup. That is what lead to the creation of the N/Rt, while lacking the healing power of the D/N it was a great boost to party's damage capabilities. However now I just run the D/N and completely drop a monk giving me a whole 8 slots to then worth with.

Morgahn had 12 spear and 14 leadership, Defensive Anthem and Anthem of Weariness in the setup that I used. I've pumped his spear up to 14, added a spear elite, and swapped Weariness for Flame. I've dropped a source of weakness and my unstrippable party wide block in favor of more damage. I feel it's a change for the better.

Quote:
However, perhaps as a better player than I am, you may not have encountered the situation of the player himself dying. That kinda removes quite a lot of defence from the whole team, if your Morgahn is solely there to output damage. I try to spread defensive and offensive responsibilites between myself and Morgahn to mitigate this. But it happens very seldom, and the team recovers from it quite fast.
The majority of my playing is with hero/hench; I have 590 health the henchmen do not. I even play on the side of caution and draw my bow well before I aggro ensuring all of the AI runs in ahead of me, if I feel it necessary that is.

There were times when I would die when I still ran the setup with two monks, along with the D/N bot. Even without my SY the group managed fine. It was situations like that which made me realize that I am really going overboard on the defense. However, things still die. I think this is mainly because I use the Ebon Battle Standard of Honor with Order of Pain; despite the lower level of Spear Mastery that my heroes had it provides a huge boost to their damage.

Quote: I will definitely look at Empathic Removal, which I think is your main change in this version. Soothing Images still cramps my style. It's also nice because it cleans the Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain, less Dismiss Condition from the protection henchmen. Nothing major but I know it is an issue for some.

Quote:
Why is there less Swift Javelin this time round? I must say that Spear of Redemption is a cool idea for removing Blind. Morgahn's originally setup was Wild Throw, Merciless Spear, and Swift Javelin if I remember correctly. With his spear being higher, so a higher chance of scoring the critical hit, I replaced Swift Javelin with Vicious Attack. Wild Throw was replaced with Blazing Spear, +24 damage and 3 seconds of burning is a fair amount of damage with Dark Fury filling it quite often. Between Stunning and Cruel I went with Stunning since the AI is rather smart with Merciless Spear (which I had already moved to Hayda at this point) and Dazed wrecks casters.

Pretty much I moved the utility spear attacks to Hayda as she was sporting a much lower level of Spear Mastery. Wild Throw for stances, Merciless for the deep wound, and Redemption to clean herself so she can get her chant up and clean everyone. 3 spear attacks is the most I'm willing to slot before I start thinking I'd be better off with a warrior.

The main reason I had Swift Javelin in the first place was because Spear of Lightning doesn't benefit from Order of Pain. The double speed and unblockable part hasn't had any real worth from my play experience.

Quote:
And what is your opinion of the Orders guy carrying a Spear and a Blood focus vs. a staff? I like the two 20% chance of faster cast on my Order of Pain and Dark Fury to kill stuff faster. Also since he is specced in blood I can set him to Guard or Attack to auto-attack on occasion in the ward with his staff.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsie
And what is your opinion of the Orders guy carrying a Spear and a Blood focus vs. a staff?
I actually always wanted my orders heroes to use a spear/offhand but there's one prob - for some reason, if they arn't close to the enemy being attacked, they don't seem to use orders. Tested it outside the pvp isle....it's pretty annoying. Kinda forces you to set your heroes to attack sometimes, and that means if they had a spear, they'd be pretty up close trying to attack with it =\

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Does [skill=text]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill] benefit from Ebon Battle Standard of Honor? It'd be hard to drop a Minion Bomber in favour of a Bone Fiend MM, i'm just curious about the damage potential. The best thing about the Honor ward: All non-armor ignoring damage gets the increase. That includes damage done by ele's.....it makes the earth hench's Stone dagger spam actually abit useful. Spells that do damage on each sec (Savannah heat, Sandstorm, etc) also get the +dmg each time. It's basically orders for everything. The AoE effect on Icy veins also counts.

Our guild has been running a similar setup for a while whenever we do high-end pve areas (DoA, Slaver's, etc). We usually always have a human nec with Dwarf weapon and it's a beast. When I'm henching I usually slap Blood ritual on the orders. I didn't really put it on a Derv primary but the recent buff made it easier on their energy.

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

I don't suppose you could try and build the whole thing with different primaries in mind? I run SY on my Warrior (Godmode ftw), and I'm assuming it won't make too much of a difference between me and your para, unless there's something I'm missing. What would you recommend people run with different primaries, and if the heroes would be adjusted in any way, is what I'm asking.

Also, it's nice to know what those 15AL shields for for

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
I don't suppose you could try and build the whole thing with different primaries in mind? I run SY on my Warrior (Godmode ftw) I run a God Mode D-Slasher too with Rac's previous build. I take Finale of Restoration instead of Aria of Zeal on Hayda, so mine is a more energy intensive build under pressure (no energy return from echoes). Hayda needs to do a bit more work (cos i'm taking more damage on the frontline) so maybe [skill=text]Blood Ritual[/skill] on the D/N as Cathode suggests is a good option to counter any energy issues on the Para's. That said, [skill=text]Mending Refrain[/skill] now costs 5e which should ease the energy load, and once the AR engine kicks into gear energy should be fine as long as the refrain is renewed.

For squishy classes, the loss of Save Yourselves is a big hit, so [skill=text]Defensive Anthem[/skill] comes back into play and [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] becomes more useful.

[update] I just did some 4-man vanquishing and i couldn't get the Paragons under enough pressure to crack their energy. I can't really see any need for Blood Ritual on the D/N, besides...what do you drop from the build?

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

I'm curious as to how you've noticed your heroes using Empathic Removal. The last time I slotted that one a heroes bar, they spammed it over and over to remove the cracked armor from all the paragons..

XDeadboltX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

R/

I was just wondering, do the heroes need any managing, or just pre casting AS before battle? I went to the temple of balth and melonni ran out of energy straight away, didnt bother casting arcane zeal first so should I do that before battle. However the reason she ran out of energy is that she doesnt have the staff yet, so she should probably have enough I think with the staff

Also, Im planning on using this with my ranger. Originally I was thinking a build something along the lines of

Apply poison, Burning Arrow, Flurry, Lightening Reflexes, Ebon Battle standard of honor, "FGJ!", "SY!" , res

Sorry dont know how to the skills yet. Anyway I was thinking maybe a little bit of degen could be good. Flurry for IAS to power SY, and Lightening reflexes keeps me safe for abit when needed, while still having IAS. Considering taking the res out for something like "You move like a dwarf".

After thinking though, I was wondering if BHA might be a better choice. If I use that, I could free up morghans elite, but not sure if it is necessary or needed.

Thoughts?

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Paragon and Mesmer heroes are smarter than average hero of other class by 50 IQ points, so they micro their builds and your build, if you are incapable of doing it.

Kidding, but seriously, paragon heroes fail at microing just one skill - Stand Your Ground. They use it, even if I already used it before or some other hero did. They just don't understand, that reapplying that shout will only make it last longer, but instead of 100% +24 armor, I have only 65% at best... So I have to disable it and activate when my shout is about to end.

Oh, and thanks for the guide anyway. Gotta get one of those shields (req 7, not 16 def), as I rarely put 9 or 10 to Motivation/Command, unless I play SoR para, then everything goes to Motiv.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
I don't suppose you could try and build the whole thing with different primaries in mind? I run SY on my Warrior (Godmode ftw), and I'm assuming it won't make too much of a difference between me and your para, unless there's something I'm missing. What would you recommend people run with different primaries, and if the heroes would be adjusted in any way, is what I'm asking.
I've been playing it on my warrior now with the same builds as I work through GW:EN and the biggest issue of all is that you are targeted with every hate spell first. If you're expecting an area with a lot of blind take Sight Beyond Sight so you aren't raging as much as I have been. There have been times where I'm just wanding the closest physical to build SY until the AI have killed everything, rather sad.

These builds are more suited towards a physical of some sort and would require some drastic changes for a caster primary.

Quote: Originally Posted by xDusT II I'm curious as to how you've noticed your heroes using Empathic Removal. The last time I slotted that one a heroes bar, they spammed it over and over to remove the cracked armor from all the paragons..
From what I've seen they won't use it unless they have a hex or condition themselves. I would always throw up my Aggressive Refrain first and they'd never use the Empathic Removal with just my cracked armor present. It's somewhat of a blessing and a curse, when you do encounter a lot of hexes you know for sure they'll be using it on recharge.

If the energy is becoming an issue disable it out of fights that are lacking in hexes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XDeadboltX
I was just wondering, do the heroes need any managing, or just pre casting AS before battle? I went to the temple of balth and melonni ran out of energy straight away, didnt bother casting arcane zeal first so should I do that before battle. However the reason she ran out of energy is that she doesnt have the staff yet, so she should probably have enough I think with the staff From what I gather from other players I can only assume that the hero has to have a wand or staff to use the build properly. When the master of damage was first introduced on the battle isles I sent my quartet to him and the hero never had energy issues for the whole 180 seconds of straight fighting. The only spells I have ever pre-cast are the interventions, and sometimes Dark Fury for a boss fight if I want SY up ASAP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XDeadboltX
Also, Im planning on using this with my ranger. Originally I was thinking a build something along the lines of

Apply poison, Burning Arrow, Flurry, Lightening Reflexes, Ebon Battle standard of honor, "FGJ!", "SY!" , res I would consider Volley or Barrage to take advantage of the ward and order, and to build SY faster.

Cherng Butter

Cherng Butter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Maryland

The Mirror Of Reason [SNOW]

E/Mo

Is the Ebon Vanguard ward pivotal to this build? My Ebon rank is only 4, and I want to use this on my God-Mode Dragonslashing Warrior.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

It shouldn't be mandatory, but of course it will help. It is basically a non enchant order that adds on extra damage to every hero so it speeds up the killing.

For me, I am just curious as to how we can use up the rest of the hero slots. Since I always play with my girlfriend and usually I have to set up the builds that require non ordinary skills, or needs the extra gear/ runes since she usually doesn't.

So, rac have you had any suggestions or ideas if your using the 2 paras, 1 dervish and then had access to 3 more heroes?

I would assume the n/rt weapon spammer could help since it adds healing as well as damage, and that with the d/n should probably be enough.

You could always add maybe another necro with fiends like someone else suggested since usually fiends will attack the closest enemy they can so they should stay around the range of the ward if even for a little bit.

Cowboy Nastyman

Cowboy Nastyman

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Me/Mo

not really jsut helps push the damage

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Kidding, but seriously, paragon heroes fail at microing just one skill - Stand Your Ground. They use it, even if I already used it before or some other hero did. They just don't understand, that reapplying that shout will only make it last longer, but instead of 100% +24 armor, I have only 65% at best... So I have to disable it and activate when my shout is about to end. Same with Defensive Anthem, Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!" and "Incoming!". They just don't understand what chaining means, apparently.



I'd like to find some way to fit this on my Ranger for vanquishing, do you think the following build would work?

[skill=text]Expert's Dexterity[/skill]
[wiki]Club of a Thousand Bears[/wiki]
[skill=text]Steelfang Slash[/skill]
[wiki]Distracting Strike[/wiki]
[skill=text]Savage Slash[/skill]
[wiki]"Save Yourselves!"[/wiki]
[skill=text]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
[wiki]Dwarven Stability[/wiki]

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

I find it funny heroes can't chain anything worth squat. Yet enemy ai like giants can chain giant stomp perfectly without any problems each and every time.

Seems like a.net could easily of made heroes smarter but they probably wanted to force some drawbacks to make us find real people.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick
I'd like to find some way to fit this on my Ranger for vanquishing, do you think the following build would work?

[skill=text]Expert's Dexterity[/skill]
[wiki]Club of a Thousand Bears[/wiki]
[skill=text]Steelfang Slash[/skill]
[wiki]Distracting Strike[/wiki]
[skill=text]Savage Slash[/skill]
[wiki]"Save Yourselves!"[/wiki]
[skill=text]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
[wiki]Dwarven Stability[/wiki] The buff to Penetrating/Sundering shot made it so rangers can dish out some pretty nice DPS.

One build i saw on GvG observe was Penetrating/Sundering/Quick Shot/Expert's focus. You could also use Read the wind + Prepared shot to keep your energy up, cause even with 14+ expertise spamming both of those skills is pretty hard on the energy The quick-cast times go well with Hornbows also, and will help fuel "SY". If you have Triple shot, that'd go very well with Orders + Ebon ward + Vamp mod.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
So, rac have you had any suggestions or ideas if your using the 2 paras, 1 dervish and then had access to 3 more heroes?
First thing that comes to mind is something that can dish out Splinter Weapons, a WoH Hybrid and a BHA ranger or Barrage guy. A little AoE wouldn't hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherng Butter
Is the Ebon Vanguard ward pivotal to this build? My Ebon rank is only 4, and I want to use this on my God-Mode Dragonslashing Warrior. My warrior running the same three heroes currently uses SY, You Move Like A Dwarf! and Finish Him! in his pve slots. I subbed in Zealous Anthem to help my energy out in place of the Spear of Redemption.

Quote: Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
I find it funny heroes can't chain anything worth squat. They seem to be pretty good with spells, chaining Aegis with no problem. Heroes, and enemies, fail with adrenaline skills, attack skills and shouts/chants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
One build i saw on GvG observe was Penetrating/Sundering/Quick Shot/Expert's focus. I recall seeing that build as well. With this setup I think it would work very well with the order + ward.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Perhaps an n/rt with channeling/ soul reaping/ death magic? Similar to an icy veins, rising bile necro to cause damage on death of enemies while supporting with splinter weapon and maybe ancestor's rage?

Also, any suggestions on a good bar for the woh hybrid/ bha ranger? I mainly ask since I have had quite a few failures with my own hero monks in the past. Using too many high energy spells or too much energy management.

I am assuming the monk hybrid is mainly because not only does it add heals but it adds protective spirit too which helps a lot when taking a lot of damage if for some reason save yourselves isn't up? Otherwise the n/rt weapon spammer would add damage while healing, but without any protective spirit.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

I hate hero monks, they're dumb as dogturd at managing energy. Because your team is almost permanently enchanted, *maybe* [skill=text]Healing Light[/skill] should be considered for the e-management. Party healing's covered by the D/N, so WoH is a clear choice for anti-spike.

The rest of the bar is pretty simple...Dwayna's Kiss, Signet of Rejuvenation, Cure Hex, Dismiss Condition (maybe leave this out given the amount of cracked armour flying around), Aegis and a couple of optionals. I'd possibly take Leech Signet & Power Drain given most prot you're going to lay down is redundant with Save Yourselves. Prot Spirit is better on a N/Mo MM as it has more energy to throw around and heroes fail at pre-prot. Shield of Absorption's a solid option. Reversal of Fortune helps under pressure.

Given Morghan is dishing out Dazed on a regular basis, Barrage makes sense in place of BHA. BHA can free up the elite on Morgahn, so he can use [skill=text]Defensive Anthem[/skill] for squishy support, or take [skill=text]Angelic Bond[/skill]. Volley can go onto a BHA bar and combines well with Splinter on Sab's N/Rt healer. It'll suffer without the minion energy machine, take [skill=text]Offering of Spirit[/skill] and energy is back on track.

For an AoE option, i'd go with a Mind Blast / Dual Attunement Rodgort's Invocation spammer with a couple of wards and Mark of Rodgort. Again, this synergises with They're on Fire. I'd probably only take the Ele if the D/N and N/Rt can handle all healing and drop the WoH...i'm providing a heap of prot with SY, TNTF and TOF. Alternately, you could run Splinter Weapon on the Ele and drop the N/Rt for the WoH.

Long story short - a WoH Monk, Offering of Spirit N/Rt, BHA + Volley / Barrage Ranger and/or a Mind Blast / Dual Attunement Ele. That's just my take on Rac's suggestions. Splinter and BHA+Volley or Barrage are hard to pass up. WoH or the MB can be swapped for defense / offense as needed.

When it comes down to it, you could save yourself the trouble and go Sabway on the second player

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

I have a question. Do heroes really stay in the ward? From my experience they never do. At least they never cared about a ward when I used earth ele. And what about the toucher lol, I would ba afraid to put a touch skill on a hero, you never know when he will decide to chase someone to touch him.

XDeadboltX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I would consider Volley or Barrage to take advantage of the ward and order, and to build SY faster. Thanks for the reply. Tried burning arrow and it was way too hard to keep energy up with constant burning arrow and flurry. I was considering barrage but thought it might be a waste since i normally only hit 3 or 4 foes at a time so ill try that. Might go /mes for epidemic, or just stick to splinter. Splinter probably best though I think. I will try out cathodes suggestions too.

Thanks for giving me a reason to use my paragon and derv heroes

Rubain

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDusT II
I'm curious as to how you've noticed your heroes using Empathic Removal. The last time I slotted that one a heroes bar, they spammed it over and over to remove the cracked armor from all the paragons.. [skill]Expel Hexes[/skill] would be an option, as Empathic Removal is used as a Hex remover

Zapper901

Zapper901

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Fire and [ICE]

W/

I for some reason cannot see the pictures. Could somebody please post the builds in writting? I know it's kinda asking alot, but I really want to see these builds.

Drake Keyotte

Drake Keyotte

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2008

Iowa

United Jedi

Mo/

RAC! GZ. Makes me want to start a Paragon class. thanks

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
I have a question. Do heroes really stay in the ward? From my experience they never do. At least they never cared about a ward when I used earth ele.
I won't drop the ward until after the AI have started to attack and everyone starts to do their own thing. It's easier to place it once you've engaged the mob; you get an idea of who will be standing still and who will be kiting. Placing a flag can help them stay still as long as they aren't under too much fire. Even if you're just getting a few people inside the ward it still adds a lot of damage over its duration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
Also, any suggestions on a good bar for the woh hybrid/ bha ranger? I mainly ask since I have had quite a few failures with my own hero monks in the past. Using too many high energy spells or too much energy management. I'm not too familiar with rangers so I can't really think of what BHA bar would look like at all. Another possibility I was thinking of today was Infuriating Heat since there already is a daze present on Morgahn. I don't run spirits ever so I'm unsure of how the enemy would deal with it; if they would kill it because of the lower level/health or just ignore it. If they do ignore it that frees up two slots on the SY bar, including your elite. Even still you could just micro it and pre-cast well out of combat.

Quote: Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight I am assuming the monk hybrid is mainly because not only does it add heals but it adds protective spirit too which helps a lot when taking a lot of damage if for some reason save yourselves isn't up? Otherwise the n/rt weapon spammer would add damage while healing, but without any protective spirit. Hex removals and Aegis. N/Rt cannot fill that role.

The monks I've been using usually run this:

Word of Healing
Dwayna's Kiss
Cure Hex
Signet of Rejuvenation
Remove Hex/Dismiss Condition
Shield of Absorption
Aegis
Glyph of Lesser Energy

Healing Prayers: 14
Divine Favor: 10
Protection Prayers: 10

I can't think of what to replace the glyph with, probably a 3rd hex removal since the only place I've been taking the monk hero recently has been FoW. With SY there is little use for Protective Spirit; if you want to slot it disable it and cast for boss encounters to use on yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Reversal of Fortune helps under pressure. I've never seen the heroes use RoF well, and with SY the heal isn't very significant. You'll get more use out of your 5 energy with Dwayna's Kiss when you can bank on the conditional for 2 enchantments with Dark Fury and Order of Pain. For the most part the best protection skills to use are going to be Aegis, Guardian, etc... mainly just to avoid interrupts and prevent adrenaline gain. That and hex removals for Empathy, Spiteful Spirit, Visions of Regret, Soothing Images, basically all the hate slowing down your killing and impacting your defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapper901
I for some reason cannot see the pictures. Could somebody please post the builds in writting? I know it's kinda asking alot, but I really want to see these builds. I've added an attachment at the end of the first post with the details written up for each picture.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Merc, i've been testing out a few bars in HM with my D-Slasher for a second team to complement Rac's. I chose my D-Slash Warrior instead of my God Mode Para to put the team under more pressure (without There's Nothing to Fear / They're on Fire, less Save Yourselves spam) -

E/Rt Blindbot Channeler

Elemental Attunement {e}
Air Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Blinding Flash
Enervating Charge
Shell Shock
Splinter Weapon
Ancestor's Rage

Air:14 E-Store:9 Channeling:10

A very powerful defensive hero, it can make the difference between a smooth run and a party wipe. I much prefer the dual attunement blindbot to Blinding Surge - BS runs low on energy (i don't like to stop between mobs to regen), dual attune spams spells better and has no energy problems. Dazed gets removed quickly via the SoR Para or the N/Rt healer, enchant stripping is an annoyance but easily overcome or avoided given Dark Fury & Order of Pain are covering enchants. Weakness, Blind and Cracked Armor are applied liberally. Shell Shock lets you take Chest Thumper on a Hero instead of Merciless / Vicious Spear for a spammable Deep Wound.

I tried a Mind Blast / Rodgort's Invocation channeler - the extra AoE damage can speeds things up, but the backline is too exposed to melee attack in HM without weakness / wards / blind in the team build. This is where They're on Fire may come in handy for the extra backline damage protection, but I'd take the blindbot over an MB/RI in a second.


N/Rt Reaper's Mark Healer

Reaper's Mark {e}
Soothing Memories
Mend Body and Soul
Spirit Light
Protective was Kaolai
Life
Signet of Lost Souls
Death Pact Signet

Soul:14 Restoration:12

Basically Sab's N/Rt without the minion energy machine. Reaper's Mark and Soothing Memories keeps energy buffed, Splinter is moved to the E/Rt, condition removal shouldn't be a problem when combined with a SoP Para. There are no energy management problems at all - most of the time the bar is maxed, making for a spam happy healer. If you're concerned about the delay of Reaper's Mark energy gain, take Offering of Spirit instead (change Soul Reaping to 10 and boost Channeling to 10).


R/Me BHA Volleyer

Broad Head Arrow {e}
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Volley
Needling Shot
Poison Tip Signet
Body Shot
Epidemic

Exp:14 Marks:13 WS:3

A solid interrupter with a spash of AoE damage. Needling Shot combines well with dazed on < 50% health targets. BHA frees up Morgahn's elite for hex removal if needed. Body Shot powers Epidemic to spread Dazed, Cracked Armor, Deep Wound, Blind, Poison, Burning and Weakness. Ebon Dust Aura is another option if you don't want to take the Ele, in that case also drop Epidemic (/D secondary) and Body Shot.

To be honest, i've tested this quite a bit and i'd rather just drop Epidemic onto Morgahn...he can spam Dazed more often than a Ranger uses BHA and has energy to burn for Epidemic. Forget the BHA and take a Barrager instead.


WoH Hybrid

I like Rac's WoH, use that. In this team build, hex removal on the physicals is more of a problem than condition removal, so two hex removals is sensible.
The WoH has no problems with energy management as long as you don't take Dismiss Condition. Given the N/Rt has unlimited energy to spam 3 good heals, and the Para shouts / blindbot's melee defense / Morgahn or the BHA's interrupts & condition spreading covers all defensive needs, i don't really see a need for a Monk just for WoH and Aegis. Nice to have but not essential when i can take Protective Spirit and Aegis on a minion bomber and offer a lot more to the team.


In Summary - this build has plenty of offense, defense, pressure and survivability. After testing the build in HM i'd take a N/Rt healer, E/Rt Blindbot and a Minion Bomber for heavy-hitting prots / hex removal, which also allows you to take Weapon of Remedy or Icy Veins on the N/Rt healer. I'd drop Aria of Zeal (it's not needed as this build is energy efficient) for Finale of Restoration - with Save Yourselves pumping out every 3 to 5 seconds you add a lot of healing support. I'd also drop Hexbreaker Aria from Morgahn for Epidemic - it combines really well with the blindbot.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
R/Me BHA Volleyer

Serpent's Quickness
Broad Head Arrow
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Volley
Needling Shot
Body Shot
Epidemic

Exp:14 Marks:13 WS:3 I've been using a similar build on my ranger.
'Cept not using bodyshot, needling shot or serpents quickness.
Troll Unguent, NatStride & Poison Tip Signet...meh, gets the job done though!

Seriously - great guide Rachtoh!

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

I never really run into energy problems anyway - so Body Shot isn't really needed for me.

EDIT: This was supposed to go after Antithesis's post after this one...Musta lagged or summin'