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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
I give it a week before its either reverted or nerfed into total oblivion...or a combination of both.
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3/6/08 update
D8tura
The Way Out
The nature of everyone is to find the easiest, fastest, safest way to do something.... (the work of truly innovative people)
These builds then get labeled as "cookie-cutter" because lazy people copy and paste them (hence, easier and faster way of getting an end result)
Then Anet says "Nerf" and community balks... (on average)
The innovative people continue to create builds, and the cycle continues...
These builds then get labeled as "cookie-cutter" because lazy people copy and paste them (hence, easier and faster way of getting an end result)
Then Anet says "Nerf" and community balks... (on average)
The innovative people continue to create builds, and the cycle continues...
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Ctb
It's not that builds are "destroyed", it's that having to redo builds because of dumb side effects is annoying.
It's not that these broken skills that are created are necessarily game-ending changes, it's just that redoing the templates that used them isn't fun for PvE players because we're not readjusting tactics we're just trudging tediously through lists of skills to try and find a replacement. In PvE, when the skills change, the monsters still use the same tactics so we're not really readjusting for any sort of challenge, and it's just a waste of time for us. |
Personally, many PvE players (myself included) enjoy tweaking skillsets for each situation they face, to best match up with their enemy's strengths and weaknesses. This is no different...it definitely causes a change in tactics if you are unable to run that build that worked so effectively before...chances are, another build that uses a completely different set of tactics will work.
Most of the complaints I see are "wasted time". To me, if your time is so precious that you cannot sit and think about what you are going to do before you do it...you might want to re-evaluate why you play the game.
Aera Lure
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Originally Posted by quickmonty
I really enjoy reading these threads after a skill update. You can tell the difference between those that can think and those that get builds off forums and PvXWiki.
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I've never seen Anet say specifically why all the nerfs and occasional buffs week after week for years now. Maybe I missed it in my rather spotty readings on the forums. It could be one of two things: Anet has been trying to achieve balance since day one and never yet has pulled it off, so they keep trying; Anet believes the best way to keep the game fresh is to continually change the skills.
If the former, well, then to my one of my original points, please, for GW2, do try to test the skills a little further before releasing them so we dont have 60% of the skill base unused and the rest constantly changing.
If the latter, well, I can see the merit and the intent. Certainly it would make the PvP crowd happy and some within the PvE crowd as well. Being mostly in the PvE crowd myself, I would rather the monsters be constantly changing - their AI, their skillsets, their mob positions and composition, their skills. It would then force us to be constantly changing our builds. Granted, constantly changing the skills can be said to accomplish the same thing, but I find that route an awful lot less interesting and far more arbitrary, especially when the former state of affairs is also taken into account.
Just my two cents. This round of skill changes for the most part look fine to me, but this is why I called it tedious. Would much prefer they approached balance and keeping the game fresh another way, although I am not sure its possible to do so for PvP, since its founded on the skills alone.
Ctb
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| To me, if your time is so precious that you cannot sit and think about what you are going to do before you do it...you might want to re-evaluate why you play the game. |
And, no, there's no tactic in "tweaking" PvE bars after a skills change. Skills changes force PvP players to react and behave differently - which is the desired effect, of course - which means that each player now has to adapt to a new type of enemy.
That doesn't happen in PvE (save those occasional times they buff MOBs with things like ints and enchant stripping). The monsters you're up against are still vulnerable to the exact same things now as they were before this "balance", you just have to find a new way to effect the same outcome.
That, to me, is a waste of my time.
Tamuril elansar
pve doesnt need balance, ppl can just play with whammo's and win the game.
pvp needs balance, ppl that play whammo's their fail hard and won't win. ppl in pvp need use their minds and skill for most builds, whereas in pve you can just randomly use skills to win the game.
pvp needs balance, ppl that play whammo's their fail hard and won't win. ppl in pvp need use their minds and skill for most builds, whereas in pve you can just randomly use skills to win the game.
Made In Ascalon
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Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem
Wtf........ completely rework a skill so it is nothing like its past use? Thats thinking outside the box huh? -.-
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Whether or not WoD is overpowered is up for the metagame to determine, but until then, the change is very creative and intuitive. This update is great, for the most part, a lot of skills were given innovative updates. I can't help but laugh at the QQers in this board with absolutely no damn clue what they're talking about.
sindex
Oh, come on now this is getting to be so terrible. I know I get upset over some of these balance problems. However, we all should know by now it lays to the fault of the PvE’ers and PvP’ers equally. Usually it starts with the elitist PvE’ers comes up with some fantastic build that does wonders in PvE. Next comes the “other person,” who decides that particular build would work rather well in PvP, with a few touchups to it. Then the conservative elitist PvP’ers finds these new builds are kicking their butt’s (no pun intended), and have no method of countering them. So of course they call out “foul,” and A-net (just Izzy really) listens. Since some of these tournaments are E-sports and A-net pays money out of their own pocket, they want to take the PvP’ers a bit more seriously. This leads back to the balance you see today and the ones prior. However, it does not finally end since this cycle repeats repeatedly.
Nevertheless, some things can still be disputed as they are now. Of course this argument will never end, because you have a few people who play both PvE and PvP equally.
As for this balance, I think its okay (not the greatest).
Nevertheless, some things can still be disputed as they are now. Of course this argument will never end, because you have a few people who play both PvE and PvP equally.
As for this balance, I think its okay (not the greatest).
Pandora's box
To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.
Don't get me wrong, I have no complains about most of the changes, in fact I enjoy the changes of eles and necros, but the question remains: Was this really necessary??
Don't get me wrong, I have no complains about most of the changes, in fact I enjoy the changes of eles and necros, but the question remains: Was this really necessary??
![Ec]-[oMaN](/static/static/../Img/avatar8384_2.gif){kind=avatar}
Ec]-[oMaN
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Originally Posted by Pandora's box
To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.
Don't get me wrong, I have no complains about most of the changes, in fact I enjoy the changes of eles and necros, but the question remains: Was this really necessary?? |
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=30
There's about 1 month of readings worth there as to why things change.
Vl Vl D
I think lighting hammer needs a buff.
Savio
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Originally Posted by sindex
Usually it starts with the elitist PvE’ers comes up with some fantastic build that does wonders in PvE. Next comes the “other person,” who decides that particular build would work rather well in PvP, with a few touchups to it.
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jrk247
Wow I can't believe all the people whining about the update, this is probably one of the only skill updates where Anet didn't totally f**k up every skill. Sure your cookie cutter builds were weakened but there are many builds you can use and you can make better builds with some of the buffs.
Ele's where powerful and they got a few balances, necros were nerfed to hell a few months back and are starting to be buffed up some and most of the other skills in this update were buffed rather then nerfed, only skill I'm disappointed about is WY and that wasn't hit that bad, it could have been worse.
Ele's where powerful and they got a few balances, necros were nerfed to hell a few months back and are starting to be buffed up some and most of the other skills in this update were buffed rather then nerfed, only skill I'm disappointed about is WY and that wasn't hit that bad, it could have been worse.
Creeping Carl
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Originally Posted by Pandora's box
To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.
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Taurucis
Well, here's another update - I wonder what they nerfed now?
It was fairly small... and Watch Yourself is still lying shattered in pieces... any speculations?
It was fairly small... and Watch Yourself is still lying shattered in pieces... any speculations?
The Meth
Probably fixed the bug that broke DoA.
IllusiveMind
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Originally Posted by Vl Vl D
I think lighting hammer needs a buff.
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Lightning Hammer is ok the way is it. Non projectile and thus cannot be dodged, slow recharge time; but, high energy cost make it more than balanced.
aapo
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
I wholeheartedly disagree. If you find enjoyment in PvE because you use the same build over, and over, and over again rather than knowing all of your skills inside and out...you might as well be playing Halo 2.
Personally, many PvE players (myself included) enjoy tweaking skillsets for each situation they face, to best match up with their enemy's strengths and weaknesses. This is no different...it definitely causes a change in tactics if you are unable to run that build that worked so effectively before...chances are, another build that uses a completely different set of tactics will work. |
So much for PvE.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
- Eh, really?
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Giga_Gaia
I wonder if anyone else has noticed that with the recent destruction of WY!, that the Luxons gain yet another advantage in Fort Aspenwood? As in Gunther STILL uses that piece of crap Izzy calls a skill? Way to go Anet, next time why not just let the turtles have over 9000 hp and do over 9000 damage with their turtle siege attacks?
Savio
Maybe you should be worrying more about other aspects of Aspenwood than what Gunther is using to defend himself.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Savio
Builds migrate from PvP to PvE, not the other way around (except when you're NPC farming).
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sindex
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Originally Posted by Savio
Builds migrate from PvP to PvE, not the other way around (except when you're NPC farming).
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Giga_Gaia
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Originally Posted by Savio
Maybe you should be worrying more about other aspects of Aspenwood than what Gunther is using to defend himself.
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Regulus X
Updates are all neg's for the most part. There're too many elite skills that shouldn't be and vice-versa. Skills keep getting changed to suit PvP (due to Dev's own personal influences as opposed to actual, real balance). What's the point of skill updates if not to actually balance them? -_-
Numa Pompilius
Christ... Is it really that hard to modify your farm builds when they happen to get hit by a skill change?
I've got avatars from six different professions, I've played for three years, and yet the only skill balance that really, truly, hit me and really, truly, ruined builds for me was the nerf to mesmer energy stealing - and that was two years ago. What am I doing wrong?
I've got avatars from six different professions, I've played for three years, and yet the only skill balance that really, truly, hit me and really, truly, ruined builds for me was the nerf to mesmer energy stealing - and that was two years ago. What am I doing wrong?
Dryndalyn
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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl
I think the PVE community whines too much about balance. Especially when you knew damn well what kind of game GW is when you bought the game. Did you not think there would be skill balances?
And are you people really having that much difficulty playing the game because of nerfs? |
To tell you the honest truth, I did not know there would be nerfs. I didn’t even know what a nerf was before Guild Wars. In the beginning, I printed out all of the skills as I do in every RPG I play, expecting to make a permanent book that I can refer to as a list of rules. The first nerf was a complete and utter shock! Even then, I thought it was a one time thing. To this day, I still find nerfs difficult to get my head around and very hard to accept.
But this won’t happen to me again. I am already completely sucked into this game, but I will not let myself get drawn into another game that nerfs skills this much, especially when one half of the game dictates the play for the other half, when really they should have nothing to do with each other.
Dzan
I don't think MMOs are for you then.
Numa Pompilius
DoomFrost
I like skill changes, keeps the game interesting and I always enjoy experimenting anyways.
angmar_nite
Pandora's box
Logical for games with a monthly fee but... If I were a (non-fee) game develloper I would think in a more commercial way: Make the game stationary as quick as possible and use all suggestions for the next game!
aTT!kus
without skill changes (good or bad) the game would remain stagnant and people would lose interest much faster, any change shakes things up and revitalizes the game a bit so i'm all for it
ensoriki
whats fun is this was made on my b-day.
And nerfed the sin and cripshot.... 2 things I like >.>
And nerfed the sin and cripshot.... 2 things I like >.>
Melody Cross
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Originally Posted by netniwk
Skill Updates
Elementalist • Glyph of Lesser Energy: canceled spells now count as a use of the Glyph's effect. |
"No one should be penalized for having the reflexes and 'situational awareness' to cancel a spell in the first place. All this nerf does is give noob players more excuse to power through Diversion."
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| and removed the long aftercast for a bunch of mediocre skills |
Abonai Laguna
They hit Mystic Regen with the nerfstick AGAIN.
They nerfed GoLE which is no use, and crippling shot...
Anet.. why?
They nerfed GoLE which is no use, and crippling shot...
Anet.. why?
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Abonai Laguna
They nerfed GoLE which is no use, and crippling shot...
Anet.. why? |
GoLE stopped the retarded cancelcasting.
It's all good.
AJD
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Originally Posted by Dryndalyn
Actually, yes. I have stopped playing some of my characters and have made them mules because of nerfs.
To tell you the honest truth, I did not know there would be nerfs. I didn’t even know what a nerf was before Guild Wars. In the beginning, I printed out all of the skills as I do in every RPG I play, expecting to make a permanent book that I can refer to as a list of rules. The first nerf was a complete and utter shock! Even then, I thought it was a one time thing. To this day, I still find nerfs difficult to get my head around and very hard to accept. But this won’t happen to me again. I am already completely sucked into this game, but I will not let myself get drawn into another game that nerfs skills this much, especially when one half of the game dictates the play for the other half, when really they should have nothing to do with each other. |
It is not that hard to deal with. In fact it is nothing to deal with at all really, if something sucks, use something else.
Creeping Carl
Seriously, it's like this in every MMO. There's always a bunch of people who complain about nerfs and act surprised and angry that skills are being changed at all. Did people somehow not understand that an online world is always changing?
At least in GW, you can change your build around at a whim with almost no effort. I've played plenty of games where the builds were pretty much permanent and being allowed to change your build was extremely limited.
At least in GW, you can change your build around at a whim with almost no effort. I've played plenty of games where the builds were pretty much permanent and being allowed to change your build was extremely limited.
Colon's Fury
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Originally Posted by Melody Cross
I greatly disapproved of this nerf, even though I saw it coming. Looking at them online the other night with some guildies, one player made this observation:
"No one should be penalized for having the reflexes and 'situational awareness' to cancel a spell in the first place. All this nerf does is give noob players more excuse to power through Diversion." |