Quote:
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Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker
i think i'll play necro some more in PvP
[skill]wail of doom[/skill] here i come! |
3/6/08 update
arcanemacabre
xDusT II
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
That, and I heard cover hexes own? (couldn't be bothered to find the original person)
Lots of changes but as usual only a few actually matter. Recharge on Guardian makes me sad  |
ManMadeGod
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mickey
All I can say is, Arcane Echo + Wail of Doom, goodbye Duncan.
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Wail of Doom lasts 4 seconds at 16 Soul Reaping, so 2 seconds on Duncan only. Not worthy at all. Spoil Victor + SoS is better.
Iuris
PLEASE don't fix the Monster skill bug, just for a little little while! PLEASE!
I just want to give some of those /#$%(& a taste of their won medicine. Just this once! Pyroclastic shot, Corrupted dragon scale, Wurm bile, Crystal hibernation, Wave of torment...
Doesn't have to work well, just... payback.
I just wish I could use Twisting jaws on a dinosaur...
I just want to give some of those /#$%(& a taste of their won medicine. Just this once! Pyroclastic shot, Corrupted dragon scale, Wurm bile, Crystal hibernation, Wave of torment...
Doesn't have to work well, just... payback.
I just wish I could use Twisting jaws on a dinosaur...
Scary
Again skill nerving... Positive/negative doesnt matter.
The only thing they can think of is how can we spend more time in nerving
skills.
Je...sssss They are like bunch civil servant always doin things you dont ask for.
The only thing they can think of is how can we spend more time in nerving
skills.
Je...sssss They are like bunch civil servant always doin things you dont ask for.
Hyaon
Psychic Instability: this skill has been moved to the Fast Casting attribute; decreased casting time to .25 seconds; functionality changed to: "Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a spell that foe is knocked down. (50% failure chance with Fast Casting 4 or less.)"
Well that's pretty much wrecked my kd build for aspen. Not happy at all, that's bringing up bad memories of SWG when the devs outright removed things from the game instead of merely adjusting. Thumbs down from me on that extreme change..
Well that's pretty much wrecked my kd build for aspen. Not happy at all, that's bringing up bad memories of SWG when the devs outright removed things from the game instead of merely adjusting. Thumbs down from me on that extreme change..
Shakkara
Dammit, they REALLY want to kill the motivation paragon eh?
Redfeather1975
There isn't one person balancing skills Longasc.
It's a group of people!
And if they stopped doing it, GW population is going to drop.
More people will quit from stale, unchanging gameplay than people who refuse to keep experimenting when things change.
It's a group of people!
And if they stopped doing it, GW population is going to drop.
More people will quit from stale, unchanging gameplay than people who refuse to keep experimenting when things change.
Cacheelma
Dynamic gameplay isn't equal to keep changing skills back and fourth.
Longasc: I wonder the exact same thing when I saw this week's Heal Party change. There's no new skills to worry about now. How long will it take for them to get it "right"?
How exactly do they balance skills? Shouldn't they set a standard "power level" for normal skills and another standard for elite skills and keep all skills at the standard level? This way, when a new skill come out, they just make sure the skill doesn't go too much below or above (at the standard would be the perfect place but...) the standard level and that's it. There'd be no need for them to keep changing old skills around when they're at the standard level already; the newer skills should be the "unbalanced" ones, not all of them.
That's how they do it in Magic the Gathering research & development (nowadays). Is it so much harder to do that GW's dev don't do it that way?
MtG's R&D team has like less than a year to playtest & balance a set of 150 cards+. Of course they make mistakes and let some overpowered cards slip out, but that happens like, once a year (if ever) and only in a set or two (out of 3-4 set of like 800 cards total) and only just a few cards.
It has been, what, nearly 3 years now for Prophecies, nearly 2 for Factions, more than 1 for Nightfall AND nearly 1 for EoTN (which has a lot less skills in it that it shouldn't matter much to begin with), yet they still haven't got it right. Are they really THAT incompetent?
Longasc: I wonder the exact same thing when I saw this week's Heal Party change. There's no new skills to worry about now. How long will it take for them to get it "right"?
How exactly do they balance skills? Shouldn't they set a standard "power level" for normal skills and another standard for elite skills and keep all skills at the standard level? This way, when a new skill come out, they just make sure the skill doesn't go too much below or above (at the standard would be the perfect place but...) the standard level and that's it. There'd be no need for them to keep changing old skills around when they're at the standard level already; the newer skills should be the "unbalanced" ones, not all of them.
That's how they do it in Magic the Gathering research & development (nowadays). Is it so much harder to do that GW's dev don't do it that way?
MtG's R&D team has like less than a year to playtest & balance a set of 150 cards+. Of course they make mistakes and let some overpowered cards slip out, but that happens like, once a year (if ever) and only in a set or two (out of 3-4 set of like 800 cards total) and only just a few cards.
It has been, what, nearly 3 years now for Prophecies, nearly 2 for Factions, more than 1 for Nightfall AND nearly 1 for EoTN (which has a lot less skills in it that it shouldn't matter much to begin with), yet they still haven't got it right. Are they really THAT incompetent?
zwei2stein
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
Dynamic gameplay isn't equal to keep changing skills back and fourth.
Longasc: I wonder the exact same thing when I saw this week's Heal Party change. There's no new skills to worry about now. How long will it take for them to get it "right"? How exactly do they balance skills? Shouldn't they set a standard "power level" for normal skills and another standard for elite skills and keep all skills at the standard level? This way, when a new skill come out, they just make sure the skill doesn't go too much below or above (at the standard would be the perfect place but...) the standard level and that's it. There'd be no need for them to keep changing old skills around when they're at the standard level already; the newer skills should be the "unbalanced" ones, not all of them. That's how they do it in Magic the Gathering research & development (nowadays). Is it so much harder to do that GW's dev don't do it that way? MtG's R&D team has like less than a year to playtest & balance a set of 150 cards+. Of course they make mistakes and let some overpowered cards slip out, but that happens like, once a year (if ever) and only in a set or two (out of 3-4 set of like 800 cards total) and only just a few cards. It has been, what, nearly 3 years now for Prophecies, nearly 2 for Factions, more than 1 for Nightfall AND nearly 1 for EoTN (which has a lot less skills in it that it shouldn't matter much to begin with), yet they still haven't got it right. Are they really THAT incompetent? |
So you have to examine impact of every skill to all other skills. Thats kinda hard.
If you have lots of crap skills, you dont need to worry about them that much. You just nerf imba skill and KNOW people have only 2-3 options on replacing it. Hell, you can provide those options yourself.
It is like having sealed deck of ~150 skills total. You remove skill from deck by overnerf, you return it there by buff. And you only ever have to worry about 150 skills, not 1500. Its easy.
Longasc
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
And if they stopped doing it, GW population is going to drop. More people will quit from stale, unchanging gameplay than people who refuse to keep experimenting when things change.
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I am not really in the mood to play GW anymore, as the PvE gameplay just became the standard usual grind exercise of most MMOs.
And PvP does not become more appealing or interesting because Izzy shuffled the cards for high-end GvG again.
I still hate the fact that he balances after the meta of the few 1% freaks that still like to PvP and really play in higher level pvp, they better improve the PvE game instead of fiddling around with skills based on the woes and gripes of a minority.
Splitisoda
Mind Blast and Rodjorts nerfed? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO YEAH SEAKING!!
Cacheelma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
There is huge problem in comboability: All skills can be equally powerful alone, but make certain combination and its imba. (That is reason why, i.e. 100b is elite skill. )
So you have to examine impact of every skill to all other skills. Thats kinda hard. If you have lots of crap skills, you dont need to worry about them that much. You just nerf imba skill and KNOW people have only 2-3 options on replacing it. Hell, you can provide those options yourself. It is like having sealed deck of ~150 skills total. You remove skill from deck by overnerf, you return it there by buff. And you only ever have to worry about 150 skills, not 1500. Its easy. |
And when MtG's R&D balance cards in each set, they have to think of limited play (seal deck in your example, and something else), Current T2 play (2 latest block + core set), AND also (but not limited to) Vintage format (all cards in MtG history. Hint: more than 1,500). They use banned & restricted rules for past mistakes (read: early MtG years). I don't think that's easy.
Did I mention they NEVER change cards' functionality (intentionally)? Some cards may change their functions, but that's due to rule changes. And that only happen like twice or so in the entire MtG 10+ years history.
I don't know if I've missed your point. But what were you trying to say when you say "it's easy"? That balancing GW's skills should be easy because there're not as many skills when compare with MtG's cards? If that's the case then I'd agree (which was also the point of my previous post).
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
I don't know if I've missed your point. But what were you trying to say when you say "it's easy"? That balancing GW's skills should be easy because there're not as many skills when compare with MtG's cards? If that's the case then I'd agree (which was also the point of my previous post).
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You see, as far as game balance is concerned, there are not 35 warrior elite skills. There are about 6. As far as balance is concerned most energy attacks on warrior do not exist ... And you never need to consider effects of Warriors cunning either ...
That simplifies process greatly.
Pandora's box
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Originally Posted by Longasc
This might be attributed to the fact that their skill balancer has nothing else to do but to permanently balance skills. If he would stop doing it, he would be unemployed. He is usually best when he does nothing and does not show up for extended periods of time.
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*Balance*; halve of the community will like it, the other halve will complain.
*do nothing*; halve of the community will complain, the other halve won't have a problem
Conclusion?
Abedeus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Taurucis
Look, Paragons got nerfed... well, I pretty much expected that. I think the Mending Refrain nerf was due to Ursan Roar, however.
Are you Ursan haters happy now? |
RhanoctJocosa
Mending Refrain nerf was due to Ursan Roar? Hahahaha.
I haven't played yet, but these updates look pretty good. Wail of Doom is OP like hell though.
I haven't played yet, but these updates look pretty good. Wail of Doom is OP like hell though.
Cacheelma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Now, point is that by overnerfing and by having inherently bad skills total amount of skills which need to be considered when balancing can drastically change - by order of magnitude. And that makes it easy.
You see, as far as game balance is concerned, there are not 35 warrior elite skills. There are about 6. As far as balance is concerned most energy attacks on warrior do not exist ... And you never need to consider effects of Warriors cunning either ... That simplifies process greatly. |
Magikarp
these are 90% typical trash updates making little to no effect on the real issues. paras, nerfed again,warriors get some junk buffs, and like always, you overpowered necros get yet another great buff..... sigh
Trub
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
Yet we still have all these back-and-fourth changes in skills, why? When will they get it "right"?
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The balancing 'back and forth' mostly comes from the need in PvP:
You get (cookie cutter as everyone seems to be calling it) builds exploding within the winners circles, and gameplay gets stale.
To shake things up a bit, and make game play more challenging, skills are nerfed, or buffed depending on the experimentation going on.
Many will complain, because a certain skill bar they were using since the dawn of time got 'nerfed', and many will celebrate, because they can see synergies in different skill/team combos.
So don't look at skill balancing as a bad thing...it's a wake up call to your brain to try something different..
Abedeus
Cacheelma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ctb
There is no "right". Skill balances fix social 'problems', not technical problems. Everytime they switch something up they're nerfing down some sort of flavorplay, but it's only a matter of time until somebody else finds some new way to "exploit" the skill designs to dominate PvP for a little while.
You can't fix unbalanced skills because there's never going to be a perfect balance between players unless all the players have to use all the same things. That's really all the "metagame" the PvPers hype up is: a race to find the handful of new builds that will annoy enough PvPers long enough to cry to ANET for another set of skill changes. In effect they're all working to stagnate their own play by focusing on a few new builds. It's really quite silly, IMHO, but to each their own (if only game companies would be smart enough to stop tying PvE and PvP skill behavior together... if only). |
I used to think that this whole balance change thing is for PvP to reach the "balance" status (which is why I never complain about it as I kinda understand that for PvP to reflect players' skill, everything else should be "balanced"). Now you're telling me that's not the case, and that Anet make these changes simply to "change which skills PvP players should use at a given time"?!
If that's the case, I'd say PvE players have all the reasons in the world to complain, really.
Trub
Quote:
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Quoting my guildie about someone who "any1 selling assassin tomb" Quote: Follow an assassin around... he'll have a tomb soon enough. |
Ok, I got my chuckle for the morning!
But hey, we have an ass'n in our guild that learned the synergies very very well...and our guild leader enjoys having him in our team for the fast destruction he can cause.
OT:
I didn't want to mention the 'blessings' in my previous post for obvious reasons...but I think you and I are on the same mind set..."Give the PvE kids their uber leet blessings for finding the hawt lewts' other than letting us play the way the game was originaly meant to be played....balanced skills for all.
But, that's just a wild guess on my part.
Gun Pierson
It's nice they finally added the weapons. I don't like the 'watch yourself' and 'heal party' nerf though. Same for another 'death pact signet' nerf. Sure I will adjust again, like I'm doing for 3 years now.
I have no problem that skills need to be balanced for pvp, but I do have a problem the pve base gets hit by doing this. Seperate the two, they're two different kind of games!
Pve is like playing golf, you just need to get the ball in the hole, everybody can do that. But how many times does one have to hit the ball to get it into the hole, that's the real question. PvP is more like soccer and other teamsports. Tiger woods is an elite player in golf, Ronaldino in soccer. It would be silly if they called eachother noobs and if they had to play with the same ball size for example.
I have no problem that skills need to be balanced for pvp, but I do have a problem the pve base gets hit by doing this. Seperate the two, they're two different kind of games!
Pve is like playing golf, you just need to get the ball in the hole, everybody can do that. But how many times does one have to hit the ball to get it into the hole, that's the real question. PvP is more like soccer and other teamsports. Tiger woods is an elite player in golf, Ronaldino in soccer. It would be silly if they called eachother noobs and if they had to play with the same ball size for example.
Dronte
Watch yourself nerf and WoD change? Why??
Axe Rake and Axe Twist still useless!!
Others are nice, nerfs arent surprising after all (except WY and SP.. why make SP totally useless?)
Axe Rake and Axe Twist still useless!!
Others are nice, nerfs arent surprising after all (except WY and SP.. why make SP totally useless?)
Brayolnne
I think part of the reason PvE players have a problem is because, simply stated, many of us do not have the aggressive playing style of PvP players. Nor do we have as much familiarity and comfort in min-maxing attributes/skills/equipment. Despite playing for nearly two thousand hours only one character has completed one campaign (yes, I own them all). The other time being spent chatting, assisting new players, AFK, etc (heck I'm playing right now).
Initially I was annoyed with the changes because they're changes. Not because I have any real idea of their impact on the game in general or me specifically. It was more like "Hey, I just found something that works! Now you want to change it?" It's not so much about whether the game needs balancing so much as us less aggressive players feel like we're finally catching up to all the Ubers we see in town.
Game re-balancing efforts are perpetual; stopping only when Anet finally decides to turn off the servers. I also realize that PvP players are going to drive the game more than PvE players. PvPers stress test attributes/skills/equipment combos in a manner that PvEers do not. The problem is that this game can never be balanced. Foremost because PvPers will simply create new combos. More importantly because the only way Anet can accomplish balancing the game is to create a new, cross-profession skill:
Skill/Spell/Attack/Hex/etc
Energy Cost: 1
Casting Time: 1
Recharge Time: 1
When used this inflicts/reduces/absorbs/prevents/heals/etc 1 point of damage. Unless it's a hex/condition/interrupt/knockdown/etc in which case it lasts for 1 second.
In other words - once everything means nothing. Because the game will stagnate at that point.
Initially I was annoyed with the changes because they're changes. Not because I have any real idea of their impact on the game in general or me specifically. It was more like "Hey, I just found something that works! Now you want to change it?" It's not so much about whether the game needs balancing so much as us less aggressive players feel like we're finally catching up to all the Ubers we see in town.
Game re-balancing efforts are perpetual; stopping only when Anet finally decides to turn off the servers. I also realize that PvP players are going to drive the game more than PvE players. PvPers stress test attributes/skills/equipment combos in a manner that PvEers do not. The problem is that this game can never be balanced. Foremost because PvPers will simply create new combos. More importantly because the only way Anet can accomplish balancing the game is to create a new, cross-profession skill:
Skill/Spell/Attack/Hex/etc
Energy Cost: 1
Casting Time: 1
Recharge Time: 1
When used this inflicts/reduces/absorbs/prevents/heals/etc 1 point of damage. Unless it's a hex/condition/interrupt/knockdown/etc in which case it lasts for 1 second.
In other words - once everything means nothing. Because the game will stagnate at that point.
odly
Off topic, but
Dark Fury is actually being used a lot in builds centered arround physical damage with paragons and warriors. When they have a (hero) orders spammer along he'll bring dark fury as well.
Here's an example : Racthoh's build
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Taurucis
I beg to differ.....
I still think that the 100+ skills that never see the light of day (Dark Fury is one good example) need to get some serious tweaks or buffs. |
Here's an example : Racthoh's build
Scary
He said... Men indeed its stupid to nerve the skills again 
Cacheelma
So basically the whole thing is done not to "fix" the game (as I used to understand), but to shake things up for PvP players and prevent PvP games from becoming stagnated?
Really?
Then why has the PvP community died? I read the-guild-hall too and if you go there you will see that THAT community (which is supposed to be pvp community) has died a bleeding death. The main reason is because Anet keeps changing skills back and fourth and never get the skills to reach the "balance" state, which seems to be something they had wanted for a long time.
Then why do PvP players think that introducing new skills and new professions are bad things? Aren't they help prevent PvP games from becoming stagnated? They say new skills and new professions mess up the balanceness (or whatever the game has at the time) of the game and it's such a bad idea and will eventually kill the pvp games. Why and how?
Really?
Then why has the PvP community died? I read the-guild-hall too and if you go there you will see that THAT community (which is supposed to be pvp community) has died a bleeding death. The main reason is because Anet keeps changing skills back and fourth and never get the skills to reach the "balance" state, which seems to be something they had wanted for a long time.
Then why do PvP players think that introducing new skills and new professions are bad things? Aren't they help prevent PvP games from becoming stagnated? They say new skills and new professions mess up the balanceness (or whatever the game has at the time) of the game and it's such a bad idea and will eventually kill the pvp games. Why and how?
Taurucis
Alright, this goes to show how bad the Warrior tactics line was nerfed.
I just logged on to work on my skill capping, and my skill capping build is usually Ursan, Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Defensive Stance, Signet of Capture, Savage Slash, Healing Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet... I have 2 empty spots in my bar. There are hardly any Tactics skills that do much anymore except for Desperation/Drunken Blow, Stances, Ripostes, and Healing Signet.
Don't tell me "l2adapt" when pretty much half an entire skill line just got shut down.
I just logged on to work on my skill capping, and my skill capping build is usually Ursan, Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Defensive Stance, Signet of Capture, Savage Slash, Healing Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet... I have 2 empty spots in my bar. There are hardly any Tactics skills that do much anymore except for Desperation/Drunken Blow, Stances, Ripostes, and Healing Signet.
Don't tell me "l2adapt" when pretty much half an entire skill line just got shut down.
MithranArkanere
Yah! At last a damage skill with conditional energy gain for Air!
And it's great against martial weapon users!
Most my air builds are against those!
Blind them! Weaken them! Crack their armors, and than gain energy when they try to attack! Nice!
And it's great against martial weapon users!
Most my air builds are against those!
Blind them! Weaken them! Crack their armors, and than gain energy when they try to attack! Nice!
Inde
Really, as much as I like coming to this thread and deleting out 50+ comments every time.. I have to repeat:
Any insult to an individual or the community as a whole will be deleted. Please stay on topic and contributing.
Any insult to an individual or the community as a whole will be deleted. Please stay on topic and contributing.
Trub
But Inde...you have to admit...
The rock hard turd comment was priceless.
OT:
PvE and PvP will stay melded as one until GW2.
Then, we MAY see a seperation.
Until then..we roll with the punches, and get more creative with what we do have to work with on our skill bars (nerfed or not)
The rock hard turd comment was priceless.
OT:
PvE and PvP will stay melded as one until GW2.
Then, we MAY see a seperation.
Until then..we roll with the punches, and get more creative with what we do have to work with on our skill bars (nerfed or not)
Numa Pompilius
I thought I was contributing?
So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.
That PvP builds like D/A-spike have been destroyed is obvious, that was the whole point of the update, but I've yet to see anything about why the farmers are so upset beyond "I really liked that skill and now it's completely useless".
I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers.
EDIT: Maybe Assassin solo green farmer?
So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.
That PvP builds like D/A-spike have been destroyed is obvious, that was the whole point of the update, but I've yet to see anything about why the farmers are so upset beyond "I really liked that skill and now it's completely useless".
I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers.
EDIT: Maybe Assassin solo green farmer?
Taurucis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.
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When I do skill capping I run Ursan with some defensive shouts from Tactics, WY and shields up got nerfed hard so I can't really run the defensive shouts anymore.
What's worse than the skill nerfs is that it's almost impossible to find any cohesive reason behind them. Why was Watch Yourself so bad? It was perfectly fine before this nerf, and the nerf before this, and the nerf before that one, and the one before that... Someone said it's been nerfed 9 times in a row.
Wildi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining
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awesome logic
Quote:
| I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers. |
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Taurucis
When I do skill capping I run Ursan with some defensive shouts from Tactics, WY and shields up got nerfed hard so I can't really run the defensive shouts anymore.
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Taurucis
I'm capping in Cantha, with the lovely 2x damage bosses. With stuff like Elementalist or Ritualist bosses who can wipe out most of your party in a couple shots. Usually I'm sacrificing SRS for Pain Inverter, which means I can't bring save yourselves and I have to use Res signet instead. That would mean either Ursan has to go (which wouldn't be a good idea) or Pain Inverter has to go (Another bad idea) or Signet of Capture has to go (...)
Even if I'm not capping from bosses who do ridiculous amounts of damage, I always prefer a rez that can move the target to you (which is why I go /Mo for Rebirth if I can) because most of my GW'ing is spent with H/H, and my henchies aren't the best at running back to me when I rez them. I have saved myself many, many times from restarts by bringing SRS even when I could have used res sig.
Even if I'm not capping from bosses who do ridiculous amounts of damage, I always prefer a rez that can move the target to you (which is why I go /Mo for Rebirth if I can) because most of my GW'ing is spent with H/H, and my henchies aren't the best at running back to me when I rez them. I have saved myself many, many times from restarts by bringing SRS even when I could have used res sig.
The Way Out
The PvE Monk is looking pretty lame now... *sigh*... if they nerf heal party again, I may start playing a Rit.
Stockholm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
I thought I was contributing?
So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining. That PvP builds like D/A-spike have been destroyed is obvious, that was the whole point of the update, but I've yet to see anything about why the farmers are so upset beyond "I really liked that skill and now it's completely useless". I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers. EDIT: Maybe Assassin solo green farmer? |
It's not so much specific builds as the time it takes away from actual game play when you have to set up a new skill bar.
Some people who play for the casual fun, might not like to figure out a new skill bar when they have limited time to play (real life commitments and such), they rather spend that time actually playing the game.