Definitive 'best' PvE Sin discussion
Damian979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
I ran the DB/MS build today on my sin, and I was bored very fast.
Thank you, that was all I meant
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
I ran the DB/MS build today on my sin, and I was bored very fast. I usually never got to use MS, as my opponent was already dead, rarely I was able to use DB. Making a chain in PvE thus seems pretty useless to me. Any comments?
Hardmode, scythesin is usually better for areas where most enemies die whenever you look at them.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
I ran the DB/MS build today on my sin, and I was bored very fast. I usually never got to use MS, as my opponent was already dead, rarely I was able to use DB. Making a chain in PvE thus seems pretty useless to me. Any comments?
Get off Shing Jea Island.
Jebus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Get off Shing Jea Island.
Sorry, I didn't realise Kourna was Shing Jea Island.
steel singer
Everywhere expect on hardmode your targets die with wounding strike/ mystic/eremites combo..
And with your target mostly 2 others that are balled to..
Wich is 3 deaths in 2 seconds of attacking, so scythesin is better everywhere except perhaps the hardmode area's.. But then only because you need the extra armor from Save Yourselves..
And with your target mostly 2 others that are balled to..
Wich is 3 deaths in 2 seconds of attacking, so scythesin is better everywhere except perhaps the hardmode area's.. But then only because you need the extra armor from Save Yourselves..
Jebus
Would this be a good 'scythesin' build?
[A/D;Owpj8NjcKTQXff6PxZje1gDQLiA]
(Not so sure about attack skills...)
[A/D;Owpj8NjcKTQXff6PxZje1gDQLiA]
(Not so sure about attack skills...)
RavagerOfDreams
way of the sin is a wasted elite use [wounding strike] its broken as can be
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
way of the sin is a wasted elite use [skill]wounding strike[/skill] its broken as can be
Truth.
-Lotus-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
Sorry, I didn't realise Kourna was Shing Jea Island.
just dont make your heroes spike the same target you attack.
Kaleban
Ctrl+Shift+Space a different target, like an elementalist or warrior type, then go DB the healer.
If running Crit Scythe, USUALLY [skill]Way of the Master[/skill] + [skill]Critical Eye[/skill] combined with your points in Critical Strikes is more than enough chance to crit, especially when the scythe is hitting three enemies. Just a suggestion, you might drop [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] in favor of [skill]Assassin's Remedy[/skill] regardless of build, being immune to blind, cripple and everything else is VERY nice, and usually IME adds more efficacy to a build, especially if you let tanks gather aggro first then come in from the flanks and blast away. There are definitely better elites to use in a CritScythe build, as Ravager already mentioned.
fireflyry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
I ran the DB/MS build today on my sin, and I was bored very fast. I usually never got to use MS, as my opponent was already dead, rarely I was able to use DB. Making a chain in PvE thus seems pretty useless to me. Any comments?
As already stated it sounds like your using the build without any tactical awareness of how to utilize it to it's full capacity within a team, especially in the first three campaigns.
If your not getting 1-3 DB cycles in per mob I'd assume either your hero builds are way to offensive, your team is to melee heavy which is'nt required/desired with a decent DB spam build (try setting your team to all caster) or your only targeting mobs with assistance of focus fire. I'd assume the latter as just about any H/H team can drop a mob with focus fire in the first three campaigns before I even get close.Obviously that does'nt make the build bad as opposed to the way your playing it. The build is popular for a reason which does'nt include mobs regularly dropping on the first two attacks of the chain.If that was actually a common occurrence the build would'nt be used....ever. DB/MS spam is teh sex for a reason hence I'll assume your doing it wrong. Damian979
LOL Jebus you MUST be doing something wrong, you're killing things WAY too fast. Try slowing down and letting the enemies kill you more.
fireflyry
Don't be facetious and read my post.
Anyone can drop mobs fast without even contributing to the kill.You can kill groups faster with proper team structure and DB spam. The point is Jebus must either have a strange H/H set-up, a lot of single target damage as part of his focus fire, or some incredibly bad luck.It's not rocket science to conclude that the most effective use of a MS/DB structured build involves minimal damage to your selected target to increase over-all AoE DPS and spread in which case yes...killing your target to fast IS counter productive. Simple really. Damian979
All sarcasm aside, I feel that reducing the effectiveness of your overall team for the sake of seeing more numbers on your own screen is counter productive.
If what you're using is overpowered for the area you're in, run a different build that is more suitable for the team you have or the area you're in. Don't just gimp 7 other people that are rolling through mobs so you can feel like you are doing "more". Try using interupts or conditions, which can still include Moebius if you want,to compliment the damage being done by a team that is obviously doing the job well. Jebus
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireflyry
As already stated it sounds like your using the build without any tactical awareness of how to utilize it to it's full capacity within a team, especially in the first three campaigns.
If your not getting 1-3 DB cycles in per mob I'd assume either your hero builds are way to offensive, your team is to melee heavy which is'nt required/desired with a decent DB spam build (try setting your team to all caster) or your only targeting mobs with assistance of focus fire. I'd assume the latter as just about any H/H team can drop a mob with focus fire in the first three campaigns before I even get close.Obviously that does'nt make the build bad as opposed to the way your playing it. The build is popular for a reason which does'nt include mobs regularly dropping on the first two attacks of the chain.If that was actually a common occurrence the build would'nt be used....ever. DB/MS spam is teh sex for a reason hence I'll assume your doing it wrong. I sometimes get one cycle in on 'big' mobs (boss monsters and the like). Once I can finish my second DB the mob is usually dead. I don't believe I run a bad build (it's NM PvE, like anything can go wrong lol). As you recommended I ran 2 SH elementalists, with one monk (build varies) filled in with the two EOTN elementalists and monks. That's 4 Elementalists, 3 monks and me, as an Assassin. Mobs still went down fairly easy, with targetting other mobs for my heroes to attack. Maybe I should focus more on support (like necromancer/paragon/rit etc.) But why would I want to compromise damage, only to see more damage on my screen (if I wanted that I'd just go farm Raptors tbh...) I'll try the Scythesin build out. One question though, what kind of scythe should I use for that build?
Kiluna
Heh, i've tryed it with 4 eles(2 heros, 2 henchies), 1 fast casting fire nuker (the high casting time aoes, M shower and so on), 2 monks and me on my sin and most of the time stuff died before i even got near of them. And yes, that was in Kourna against Corsairs.
You have to also remember that Kourna is where you get around 17 lvl with Nightfall charracter so it can't be filled with too hard mobs. DB+MS spammer works fine for me in Vabbi and early desolation with slightly modified sabway (less defense more offense). I think you must be doing something wrong, as it's rare for me to not get blossom off at least once before stuff dies. Maybe it's that i just rush in without waiting for my H/H group, as most of the time this gives me 2-3 secs head before H/H damage comes in? My setup with low damage? Umm... Sabway (with less defense) 2 monks 2 eles or warriors, i randomly choose between them. Here is result with it in Unwaking Waters as a only human player (luxon group was controlled by AI):  I don't think the above is too bad time for the run, but i don't claim it to be uber or best. Edit: Cannot find the original screenshot with full screen, but if i remember right it was with 2 monk henchies, and a ranger and ele henchie. Edit: Here's little better quality picture as .png
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiluna
Heh, i've tryed it with 4 eles(2 heros, 2 henchies), 1 fast casting fire nuker (the high casting time aoes, M shower and so on), 2 monks and me on my sin and most of the time stuff died before i even got near of them. And yes, that was in Kourna against Corsairs.
You have to also remember that Kourna is where you get around 17 lvl with Nightfall charracter so it can't be filled with too hard mobs. DB+MS spammer works fine for me in Vabbi and early desolation with slightly modified sabway (less defense more offense). I think you must be doing something wrong, as it's rare for me to not get blossom off at least once before stuff dies. Maybe it's that i just rush in without waiting for my H/H group, as most of the time this gives me 2-3 secs head before H/H damage comes in? My setup with low damage? Umm... Sabway (with less defense) 2 monks 2 eles or warriors, i randomly choose between them. Here is result with it in Unwanking Waters as a only human player (luxon group was controlled by AI):  I don't think the above is too bad time for the run, but i don't claim it to be uber or best. needs less res, you should be to busy not sucking/killing things to need one ogre_jd
Meh. Most of the time I don't get to do my Dual Attack on the creature that I'm targetting, much less [[Moebius Strike] and reusing the Dual Attack, thanks to the H/H's automatically joining in** as soon as they can reach me. Even shift-calling a different target then attacking the one I want myself doesn't help.
That annoyance, plus the fact that I died very frequently, even with [[Critical Defenses] or [[Flashing Blades] up, while using Daggers is what led me to Critical Barraging. At least with that build I get to fully perform the duties I've assiged myself - and with far fewer deaths.  ** On the other hand, when my Warrior attacks something, even calling the target doesn't seem to help get the H/H's to join me, no matter how much I want them to. Doesn't help that I'm not good at multitasking and so can't really micromanage my Heroes in the middle of a combat. In contrast, the H/H's seem to obey my Monk's target calling almost without question - and also seem generally more competent and powerful, killing groups of enemies faster than when I'm on the front lines.
Damian979
Rofl.....unwanking, I needed a good laugh today thx
Kiluna
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Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid
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Maybe give me advice what my build would need, please? As i did understant that you think it lacks something.
Edit:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Damian979
Rofl.....unwanking, I needed a good laugh today thx
Lol, fixed :P
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiluna
Maybe give me advice what my build would need, please? As i did understant that you think it lacks something.
It has everything you need, most of MS/DB'ing is personal preference.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979
If what you're using is overpowered for the area you're in, run a different build that is more suitable for the team you have or the area you're in.
When is this EVER a problem? Its not like the MS/DB cycle has a 20 second recharge or anything, so just move on to the next target.
MS/DB really shines in HM, especially when whaling on a healer or boss, and the entire screen fills with yellow numbers! Kiluna your bar is pretty much standard, however its obvious what the problem is, and that is you have an offhand attack applying Deep Wound. That's good for a shattersin build sure, but not MS/DB, I'd recommend changing it to Wild Strike for the unblockable stance removal, which will also help any other melees when going up against AI stance RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs!  NOT having Deep Wound will actually make your DPS higher, since you can get off more than one DB chain, hitting all adjacent enemies, with enough mobs your aggregate damage will outdo any other skill in the game easily.The Deep Wound is just making it less effective, even though that may be counter-intuitive for most. I'd also replace the Rez with [skill]Assassin's Remedy[/skill] which helps a lot against Tainted Flesh Necros, blindbot Eles, and Throw Dirt Rangers.
Bobby2
Crowd control anyone? DPS isn't all there is to it ESPECIALLY in team builds
[skill]grasping earth[/skill][skill]deep freeze[/skill] Ohai
Kiluna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
Kiluna your bar is pretty much standard, however its obvious what the problem is, and that is you have an offhand attack applying Deep Wound. That's good for a shattersin build sure, but not MS/DB, I'd recommend changing it to Wild Strike for the unblockable stance removal, which will also help any other melees when going up against AI stance RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs!
NOT having Deep Wound will actually make your DPS higher, since you can get off more than one DB chain, hitting all adjacent enemies, with enough mobs your aggregate damage will outdo any other skill in the game easily.
Well, i did not say i've any problems with my build, i'm happy with the damage it does and foes dying too fast is not a problem for me because of the fast recharges. But i'll try your suggestions and see how it goes, so thanks anyway! Edit: and i understant your point with my current off-hand.
fireflyry
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Originally Posted by Damian979
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Logic therefore dictates:Change your team build if you want to run it to it's full potential.
Changing a team build to cater for DB spam is not reducing the effectiveness of your team at all, it's actually increasing it's overall effectiveness and efficiency which will lead to faster and easier farms, mission completions, etc, etc as your team is free to contribute in far more constructive ways.
If your running DB spam it's pretty obvious much of the AoE damage is in your hands hence you should'nt be running a uber-nuker team or have a H/H team killing mobs before you even get close and if your H/H team is'nt set up to compliment your build, in this case MS/DB, your off to a bad start ending in an inaccurate opinion of the builds performance.
In saying if the mobs are under lvl 20 you could roll nothing but [flurry] on your bar and still get by with an all hench team.
I'd rather have my H/H interrupting/spreading conditions/running e-management, etc, etc while I deal out the DPS.
If I'm a Sin with DB/MS....thats my job, leave interrupts to mesmers and rangers, especially with the AI's godly timing and the power of SY on my bar.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jebus
Maybe I should focus more on support (like necromancer/paragon/rit etc.) But why would I want to compromise damage, only to see more damage on my screen (if I wanted that I'd just go farm Raptors tbh...)
It's about overall efficiency imo and you really should'nt need to sacrifice much to have an totally kick ass team build which easily incorporates DB spam.In saying there is a plethora of things to think about and any team with a couple of good nuker builds can steamroll most mob groups but what you have to ask is how efficient and fast is your team is over-all and could you sacrifice damage for say, energy return for example, which would lead to better overall team performance and prioritize you as the major damage dealer.
If your running a team where your 3rd or 4th on the DPS list the build is obvious fail and will play that way. Obviously MS/DB spam builds are only as good as the team they are played with and how they work within that team structure.If your team is pumping out to much DPS or their builds are'nt allowing you to DB spam it's pretty easy to conclude your better off with something else (for my money any AP dagger build is great fun till they become useless in the later game). In saying just about every area in NM is pretty easy pre-end game and tbh it's more about using a build you enjoy.DB/MS will be an obvious choice by the time you get to end-game or HM. Good luck. Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Crowd control anyone? DPS isn't all there is to it ESPECIALLY in team builds
[skill]grasping earth[/skill][skill]deep freeze[/skill] Ohai
You mean, on an Assassin bar?
Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
way of the sin is a wasted elite use [wounding strike] its broken as can be
Makes me like scyther sins, awesome skill, good scythe sin bar would be this imo:
[build prof=A/D box crit 12+1+1 scythe=12][wounding strike][chilling victory][mystic sweep][eremites attack][critical agility][aura of holy might][critical eye][optional][/build] slot a skill of choice into optional slot, [i am the strongest] would be sweet for example.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
Crowd control anyone? DPS isn't all there is to it ESPECIALLY in team builds
[skill]grasping earth[/skill][skill]deep freeze[/skill] Ohai
You mean, on an Assassin bar?
You really should work on those leet reading skillz. And I really miss [skill]way of the master[/skill] on that last bar of yours 
Damian979
Running a build that is overpowered for what you are fighting is a big problem when you are wasting time and energy, and not using half your skills because everything dies before you can get off a chain.
Originally Posted by Bobby2
If I want to be doing all the damage, I'll run solo or bring a team focused on supporting me. If I was running a team with 4 ele's as mentioned earlier then the DPS would already be covered and snare/shutdown tactics would be far more efficient. It all comes down to what you are fighting and what the other 7 team members are bringing to the table. Heroes/henches don't really care if you boot them, but try asking 7 other members in a pug to change their builds so you can see more numbers. It's better to learn how to be versatile with your own skills. Or to better put it... Quote: Crowd control anyone? DPS isn't all there is to it ESPECIALLY in team builds
Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
And I really miss [skill]way of the master[/skill] on that last bar of yours
On energy heavy builds Critical Eye is preferable for the extra energy gained on a critical hit as you would get 5 energy return per critical hit with Zealous weaponry. With AoE weapons (Scythes) or skills (Eremites Attack, Chilling Victory) it all adds up.
Jebus
Okay, I've seen a lot of advice here, I'll try to build a different build around the DB/MS one.
One question though(Already asked before but it didn't get answered), what kind of Scythe should I use in the Scythesin build?
fireflyry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979
If I want to be doing all the damage, I'll run solo or bring a team focused on supporting me. If I was running a team with 4 ele's as mentioned earlier then the DPS would already be covered and snare/shutdown tactics would be far more efficient. It all comes down to what you are fighting and what the other 7 team members are bringing to the table. Heroes/henches don't really care if you boot them, but try asking 7 other members in a pug to change their builds so you can see more numbers. It's better to learn how to be versatile with your own skills. Or to better put it... |
Refer to the original quote I replied too:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jebus
I ran the DB/MS build today on my sin, and I was bored very fast. I usually never got to use MS, as my opponent was already dead, rarely I was able to use DB. Making a chain in PvE thus seems pretty useless to me. Any comments?
Your WAY off-tangent stating a player needs to be versatile in human grouping, especially if pugging, as the original request has nothing to do with build versatility but thoughts as to why they found the MS/DB combo largely redundant.
Circles? Damian979
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireflyry
Changing a team build to cater for DB spam is not reducing the effectiveness of your team at all, it's actually increasing it's overall effectiveness and efficiency which will lead to faster and easier farms, mission completions, etc, etc as your team is free to contribute in far more constructive ways. |
If you want to H/H everything with a one build wonder, then fine, but "efficient" to me who hates henching crap, would be changing one build that doesn't fit the team, not the whole team. Hence versatility.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jebus
Okay, I've seen a lot of advice here, I'll try to build a different build around the DB/MS one.
One question though(Already asked before but it didn't get answered), what kind of Scythe should I use in the Scythesin build? I don't scythesin much, but I found a zealous 15^50 fortitude works pretty good. Though there are probably better options.
fireflyry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979
If you want to H/H everything with a one build wonder, then fine, but "efficient" to me who hates henching crap, would be changing one build that doesn't fit the team, not the whole team. Hence versatility.
lol
Jebus was'nt asking about build versatility...at all...he was asking for specific comment on why mobs were dropping before he even got an off-hand in when using a DB/MS build. Again...your going off-topic to validate your point. I totally agree with your opinion and run a truck load of "versatile" builds but that has absolutely nothing to do with the original request for comments on a specific build issue. Going off into tangents of build versatility and total build changes really serves no purpose towards answering or helping with his query, it merely avoids it altogether. Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
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Might be interesting tbh, assassins like high enrgy stuff.:P
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And I really miss [skill]way of the master[/skill] on that last bar of yours
I dont like to go on overkill with enchies on my bars and usually prefer critical eye over wotm as it cant be stripped, left one slot as optional though so if you miss it use it, though, I think using both wotm and ce is a big overkill on crit bonus.
Damian979
lol The topic was actually best PvE sin, which in my opinion is the one that doesn't expect everyone else to change their build to cater to theirs regardless.
end topic
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979
lol The topic was actually best PvE sin, which in my opinion is the one that lets other people run bad or unfitting builds.
end topic how I read that Super Igor
I always bash over people's builds unless those people are good which is rare in pve community.
Damian979
Unfortunately if you are in a group running bad builds and you choose to stay, who's fault is that?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
I dont like to go on overkill with enchies on my bars and usually prefer critical eye over wotm as it cant be stripped, left one slot as optional though so if you miss it use it, though, I think using both wotm and ce is a big overkill on crit bonus.
Point well taken. But having to choose between WotM or IatS! for the last slot, I'd probably go with the first since Scythecrits are sooooooo juicy (and I haven't EVER had IatS! up all the time).
Someone (other than me! ) should do some number crunching on this one!
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