Definitive 'best' PvE Sin discussion
petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
One extra skill to get into the chain. Golden Fang Strike if you're not using Golden Phoenix as your lead, when switching targets under Critical Agility doesn't really going to make that much difference to be honest. Also in this case you could say one less Moebius Strike, which doesn't do AoE, in which case the Deep Wound would be beneficial.
fixed maybe? 
moriz
there isn't enough room to fit another offhand in the build, so golden fang strike is out.
also, if a moebius strike is all it takes to kill the target, then that's good. i'll have a fully charged combo ready for the next target, and it doesn't eat up a skill slot.
either way, a deep wound skill is not needed in the build.
also, if a moebius strike is all it takes to kill the target, then that's good. i'll have a fully charged combo ready for the next target, and it doesn't eat up a skill slot.
either way, a deep wound skill is not needed in the build.
petrorabbit
There probably is no need for DW if your goal is to Death Blossom spam. But vs single targets, the DW does speed up the kill significantly. Maybe let a derv or war in the group be the DW spammer, if you want an extra slot for utility.
dicecube
deep wound in pve is unnecessary on a DB/MS bar. On the otherhand, it's extremely viable on a AP bar.
shru
Wouldn't deepwound actualy hurt your damage ouput?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the goal of a MS/DB build to spam DB as much as possible? So if you're killing your target faster through higher single target dps (deepwound) you're spending more time restarting your chain, and effectively hurting the dps DB could be producing (with proper positioning)
ofc this is different verse high priority targets (healers and bosses)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the goal of a MS/DB build to spam DB as much as possible? So if you're killing your target faster through higher single target dps (deepwound) you're spending more time restarting your chain, and effectively hurting the dps DB could be producing (with proper positioning)
ofc this is different verse high priority targets (healers and bosses)
Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by shru
Wouldn't deepwound actualy hurt your damage ouput?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the goal of a MS/DB build to spam DB as much as possible? So if you're killing your target faster through higher single target dps (deepwound) you're spending more time restarting your chain, and effectively hurting the dps DB could be producing (with proper positioning) ofc this is different verse high priority targets (healers and bosses) This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team. For that straight into MS/DB is far more beneficial. Personally I just use it to spam double strikes on my target, the AoE is just a bonus to me. Hence why I pack Deep Wound, because it suits my playing style. petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
No the assumption aas made that the player was using Golden Phoenix to get straight into the AoE.
Odd, the way i read it, it sounds like you recommend bringing [Golden Fang Strike] when [Golden Phoenix Strike] is your lead. Problem is, GPS is an offhand, so what lead attack is going to trigger GFS? If you're assuming to bring GFS with a lead, you weren't very clear on that, considering you said to bring "one extra skill".
Not trying to bash your typos and whatever, just pointing out the lack of clarity.
moriz
he probably meant [golden fox strike] instead.
petrorabbit
^ maybe, hence why i said not using [Golden Phoenix Strike].
Unreal Havoc
Basically as used in the following build over taking just Golden Phoenix Strike.
[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1 cri=12+1+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Unsuspecting Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Save Yourselves][Resurrection Signet][/build] Which is a common MS/DB build run nowadays.
dicecube
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team.
do you recommend a sin to be tanking for the entire team? (excluding shadowform tank)
Unreal Havoc
[QUOTE=dicecube]
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team.QUOTE]
do you recommend a sin to be tanking for the entire team? (excluding shadowform tank) Excluding a Shadow Form Tank? Not in the slightest, hence my point. Super Igor
you never, ever, EVUR tank as an Assassin!
Niether Crit Agility or crit Defences give you tanking power, you deal damage, lots of it, so protect you Assassin ass till aggro is settled then kill everything, and dont rush into the mobs without flat/longbow aggroing and sending you minion wall in first and die... Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill] Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin: [skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB. So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks. btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either. |
Dont be funneh, [finish him] is DEFO better then Impale.
You dont need dw much untill the thing you are bashing is about to die soon anyway, in this case, sheer damage and activation time matters.
How come you say that and Instant, HUGE armor ingoring damage, unblockable, uninterruptable skill that can be used in the middle of any action is inferior to some crappy long casting low elemental damage skill that gets interrupted and can only be used after a dual?? You are so...so...so much wrong mate, terribly, terribly wrong. You also boast about [finish him] costing ~6 more energy, I tell you mate, if you, as an Assassin expirience any energy problems then sorry, you are bad at the profession and need to reconsider something. I dont care about the pve slot, if I take the shout it means I need a good finishing blow,a dn it does the job good, especially on a shattersin, I will not waste a slot on my bar for some crap like [Impale] on max 6-7 DA that wont do a damn to anything on HM.
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You, sir, need to learn to read. Specifically, the quote you used yourself:|
Originally Posted by moriz
on second thought, any deep wound on a moebius sin is quite bad. why? because that means 1 less death blossom, which means potentially a lot less aoe damage.
not to mention, the build certainly don't need a deep wound. it does enough damage to plow through most monsters in one go. <3 to you moriz. (not rrrly but you get the point) Exactly..again...the same thing i was saying about earlyer, dw makes the thing you bash with MS?DB die faster, you need everything to die pretty much at once without swapping targets much.
dicecube
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
you never, ever, EVUR tank as an Assassin!
Niether Crit Agility or crit Defences give you tanking power, you deal damage, lots of it, so protect you Assassin ass till aggro is settled then kill everything, and dont rush into the mobs without flat/longbow aggroing and sending you minion wall in first and die... my thoughts exactly.. I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence 
Super Igor
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Originally Posted by dicecube
I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence
Theorycrafting went too far maybe?
Bobby2
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You are so...so...so much wrong mate, terribly, terribly wrong.
'I'm never wrong, people just misunderstand.' | I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on. And Impale isn't crap - DW for 5 energy = good, the short duration at low DA doesn't really matter as it should be about a finishing skill anyway. Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on. By saying that FH! is not worth taking over Impale you have said that it is infact highly inferior to it, It was wrong, wilst you are clearly not knowing something and should fix it. FH! is infact highly.....highly superior to Impale.....the armor ignoring instant damage it deals is far greater then elemental damage Impale can deal at a such low DA level you can afford to use it at, it is also...i will say it again not armor ignoring which will render it even less powerfull. casting time, FH! doesnt have one, Impale is one second cast, it is long, it will be interrupted if something is able to do it in pve it will take long to apply dw with it and it will interrupt you chain, in that perior a lot of things could be done by fast paced mobs on hard mode. energy difference, meh, there isnt one, for assassiun who never has energy problems there is no difference at whether the skill he uses is 4 or 10 energy. So you see, no matter how you put it, no matter how you will turn inside out in front of this debate, you still cant prove FH! to be inferior to Impale. Lets just compare: There is no energy issues for a sin this way there is no matter about whever the skill is 4 or 10 energy. this way, for a same recharge time skill you get more damage, faster activation, more conditions, no risks which makes FH! a MUCH greater finishing move to use, and it is worth spoending a pve skill slot for such a finishing move if I would need such rather then wasting a skill slot for Impale that clearly wont do its job well, and if you dont have a free pve slot to use for FH! then you shouldnt take any of such skills at all OR take [Twisting Fangs] which will again, do a better job then Impale.
Kaleban
There's an exceedingly simple reason why [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is inferior to [skill]Impale[/skill], and that is FH! has the condition that the target be under 50% health.
Since we're talking Shattersin atm and its use of DW when compared to a MS-DB sin who gets more mileage by forgoing DW, it can be safely assumed that after the first combo, an enemy may not be under 50% health. However, using Impale, you get unconditional damage and DW, which makes the next use of the combo a possible killer. You also don't take into account the possibility that a monk is healing the target, keeping you from getting it under 50% health, making FH! completely and utterly useless. However, with Impale, you get the condition and damage at any point after you fire off Shatter. The difference between FH! and Impale is similar to the difference between MS-DB and Shatter. On one hand, you get great damage and can steamroll enemies when conditions are met, on the other you get versatility and reliability. In fact, since the "under 50% health" condition is ALSO found on [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] its obvious that FH! has more parity with that build than a Shattersin. In fact, FH! can be useful on a MS-DB sin who's facing boss packs, using the boss to kill off adjacent minions from DB AoE, then hitting the boss with FH! to, well, finish him. petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
There's an exceedingly simple reason why [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is inferior to [skill]Impale[/skill], and that is FH! has the condition that the target be under 50% health. As said before, Impale's damage can be mitigated because its elemental damage. It's 1 second activation time makes it susceptable to interupts, and yes it is likely to happen since many ranger and warrior mobs do have interrupts and knockdowns. Lastly, to make Impale be anywhere near effective to Finish Him, you need to invest points into deadly arts, which means you have 1 less rank in Dagger Mastery.
Kaleban
I'm a proponent of the shattersin builds for their versatility under almost any conditions within the game.
That being said, the shattersin's DPS is not that of MS+DB, so soloing a target to 50% or less is not as easy. Yes, in a party of 8 that's a relatively easy condition to meet, provided proper target calling and focused fire. However, optimal conditions are not always met, and since a shattersin build's main strength is the ability to fight and kill under any conditions, the use of Impale to me is better because you can apply DW after the first Shatter, rather than be forced to wait until a target is at 50%. In high end PvE and HM, applying a DW at the beginning of a burn down is better than halfway, since it inhibits healing and speeds up the kill process from the start. Of course, its all academic, and probably down to what you prefer. For my part, when playing a shatter build, I want maximum reliability, Impale in that regard is much better than FH!. And I'm less concerned about the bonus damage from either skill, compared to the DW.
RavagerOfDreams
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Originally Posted by dicecube
my thoughts exactly.. I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence
tanking as a sin is fairly easy with [skill]Critical Agility[/skill] and the common sense to only aggro one mob. That + a minion bomber and you should be able to absorb any damage that hits you.
petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
...snip
However, optimal conditions are not always met, and since a shattersin build's main strength is the ability to fight and kill under any conditions, the use of Impale to me is better because you can apply DW after the first Shatter, rather than be forced to wait until a target is at 50%. In high end PvE and HM, applying a DW at the beginning of a burn down is better than halfway, since it inhibits healing and speeds up the kill process from the start. Waiting until the target is at 50% is neglegable, especially in a full party. Besides, the Shattersin's strength is not to solo targets, so you won't often find yourself fighting a target alone. If you do, most likely, your party on the verge of wiping. Even the shattersin chain is supporting the whole group attacking that target, and [Finish Him] does that job better than impale. Yes, [Impale] DW can land earlier, but what is often overlooked is the application of cracked armor. Other than helping the whole party kill the target faster, there is also a cover condition in case one is removed. I really don't know which application covers the other, so if someone knows, please clarify. Either way, you will have at least one condition on the target that is benefiting the group. I know it is up to the player to decide what they want to use, but 9/10 times, Finish him will be more useful than Impale on the shattersin bar. Tyla
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
you never, ever, EVUR tank at all because it's bad!
Fixed for accuracy. Holding aggro is fine though, as long as you don't devote your bar to selfish defense. 
Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Fixed for accuracy.
Holding aggro is fine though, as long as you don't devote your bar to selfish defense.
Oh my, so nice of you Tyla! Butby "tanking" we mean holding or taking aggro and bringing it to were it should be. In this case Assassin are just not build for any kind of such actions, and are better off sending higher AL's or the minion wall first and then enterring battle themselves and destroy everything with their insane DPS. Unreal Havoc
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my thoughts exactly.. I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence
Solo farming MS/DB builds ring a bell here? Where you allow a mob to settle on you fully before laying into them with MS/DB? (A/D & A/Mo) That's what I was referencing to and seems you're not doing that in general PvE thats why I reccomend carrying Deep Wound because you don't have solid aggro around you all the time like when you are farming with MS/DB and is great for picking off lone targets that may have scattered etc.
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Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
/snip So you see, no matter how you put it, no matter how you will turn inside out in front of this debate, you still cant prove FH! to be inferior to Impale... /snip |
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'I'm never wrong, people just misunderstand.'
I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on. Don't try to argue for argument's sake. You'll look foolish.
EDIT (to reply): suit yourself
I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on. Don't try to argue for argument's sake. You'll look foolish.
EDIT (to reply): suit yourself
Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
You, sir, need to learn to read. Specifically, the quote you used yourself:
Don't try to argue for argument's sake. You'll look foolish.
No U!
Saying that FH! isnt worth taking over Impale at all means sayin that FH! is inferior to Impale, so gtfo.
Don't try to argue for argument's sake. You'll look foolish.
No U!Saying that FH! isnt worth taking over Impale at all means sayin that FH! is inferior to Impale, so gtfo.
Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
[crit agility] you have always...when you going out to MS/DB or to Shattersin you must have the enchie...so I dont have any idea why you have thrown it into optional....such a badness.
Anyone who doesn't run Critical Agility on their skillbar in PvE as standard better have a damn good reason not to or they just plain outright fail (Harsh? Yes... but defintiely true). +armour and maintainable IAS is godly for an Assassin.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
but hey! that leaves us with two PvE slots!
[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill]: you only have 1 slot left.
So to summarize this futile argument:
Everyone knows how you feel about [skill]finish him[/skill] by now. Some agree.
Me, I'd rather have a non-PvE slot for my DW: leaving room for [skill]you move like a dwarf[/skill] or [skill]great dwarf weapon[/skill] (the latter if I'm not the only PC melee in the party).
So to summarize this futile argument:
Everyone knows how you feel about [skill]finish him[/skill] by now. Some agree.
Me, I'd rather have a non-PvE slot for my DW: leaving room for [skill]you move like a dwarf[/skill] or [skill]great dwarf weapon[/skill] (the latter if I'm not the only PC melee in the party).
Super Igor
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill]: you only have 1 slot left.
You dont have to take SY!, it is not a must and you can do just fine without it. And i dont expirience any special feelings about FH!, just defending the skill from wrong statements.
Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
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The build already has [Deadly Haste] so [Arcane Echo] isn't really needed since your recharge times are lowered. 
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Learn the definition of irony and hypocrisy. "Narutard" is a term used to describe first generation sin players who derive their skillsets, mindset and playstyle from the Japanese anime "Naruto." The combination of "naru" and "tard" is used to designate those sin players who think that builds like the ones you post are effective... BELIEVE IT!
The following is a slight tangent, yet relative."Narutard" originated from what the naruto fans, who watch the japanese fansub and read the japanese manga, designated to the fanbois who only watch the english dub. This originated from the name of the anime, "Naruto" and "Retard" hence the word. Since Viz Media coudn't find a suitable translation for Naruto's catch phrase "Dattebayo", they turned it into what english anime audiances know as "Believe It". Hence someone who says "Believe It", pretty much reveals themselves as "Narutards". Ironic isn't it?
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
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Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor I do understand how frustrating, grrr, it is when you Kaleban have proven yourself to be just bad and understand that yourself, bad to an extent that all of your crap had to be removed, stating a fact, you got proved wrong, nobody agrees with what you say, happy? Hmm, no, you are not happy.....obviosly.....if you are not and can not hold all your shit in youreself, atleast dont splatter it all other the thread. Again, hate to burst your lovely little bubble that protects you from reality, but our little quarrel was removed on BOTH sides, so if you're saying my stuff got removed because its wrong somehow, then you are also implicating your own material as incorrect.
Regardless, it wasn't build info that was removed it was the pointless flaming that you for some reason desperately need to continue.
Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor What you say is a pointless omnom, that proves you even worse then you are, so stop making yourself look like an even bigger idiot, and just stop posting your shit here, harsh but true.
Harsh yes, true no. Your opinion, I'm sorry to say, does not seem to carry much weight, unless you're agreeing with everyone else, from where I sit it seems much of what you post is inflammatory and designed to start flame wars. Besides that, from what I've read, your "insight" is usually wildly off the mark, but that's my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
Ohm nearly forgot, if you Kaleban, like to shadowstepping into a mob in front of everyone to take all the aggro on yourself then you are....just such a bad player, consider uninstalling.
As I've said countless times before, you wait until the aggro settles on the tank/designated player, then you ss in and kill, which doesn't cause aggro to move to you. If you understood how the system actually worked, you'd realize the error in your own analysis, but what can I do if you choose to remain ignorant?
As I've said countless times before, you wait until the aggro settles on the tank/designated player, then you ss in and kill, which doesn't cause aggro to move to you. If you understood how the system actually worked, you'd realize the error in your own analysis, but what can I do if you choose to remain ignorant?Quote:
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
Yeah it doesnt matter, this why it is under *Off topic*, so why the hell you rage about it again?
Actually, this thread is under "The Campfire" sub-Assassin, Off-Topic is another forum, so you're wrong again as usual. Unless of course you're admitting to purposefully de-railing threads to start flame wars?Quote:
Actually, Kaleban, you did start throwing out the personal insults in the other thread first. Hence why I posted the following.
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