Definitive 'best' PvE Sin discussion
BlackSephir
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicecube
those IAS's stack?? omgwtf nerf sins!!!11!!111!!
Now imagine what would happen if someone doesn't have Nightfall.
OLOLOLO CR(IT AGI ISNT TEH ONLU ONE IAS ASSASSASSASSIN CAN USE!!!1
OLOLOLO CR(IT AGI ISNT TEH ONLU ONE IAS ASSASSASSASSIN CAN USE!!!1
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Even in the worst of cases, a Blossom spammer can retry in 2 seconds. No biggie.
And miss again. And have Moebius miss too. And then crit defense and agility drop before recharge because you can't hit for crits.
OR
Take a shattersin build, which can hit anything regardless of stance or enchants, does very high single target damage, destroys all defenses on the opponent, and repeat every 4 seconds.
So you're saying the choice is between continual misses with Moebius-DB every 2 seconds, or solid hits and defense removal every 4 seconds. Hmmm...
Of course, the argument becomes moot against opponents like target dummies that don't defend or anything, but against even PvE enemies who use defensive enchants and stances, a shattersin just blasts through them.
But its like any other profession, you have to adapt the build to the area you're in, if you know you'll be facing mobs that don't regularly use enchants or stances for protection, then yes, a Moebius-DB is better. If, on the other hand, you know you'll be facing kournan bowmen backed up by aegis spamming healers, then rather than take it in the face because you stubbornly refuse to play anything but Moebius-DB, you take shattersin and mow them down.
The nice thing too is that a shattersin can, every 4 seconds completely wreck an opponent, then move on to the next, quickly and efficiently destroying defense after defense with quick unblockable attacks. Rather than having your casters worry about disenchanting multiple enemies, the shattersin can do that while doing impressive damage, so the casters can focus more on damage mitigation or nuking.
Just recognize that playing Moebius-DB isn't the ONLY way to play a sin, and in many ways is inefficient in various areas. The numbers look good when you do hit, but that's not always a guarantee...
OR
Take a shattersin build, which can hit anything regardless of stance or enchants, does very high single target damage, destroys all defenses on the opponent, and repeat every 4 seconds.
So you're saying the choice is between continual misses with Moebius-DB every 2 seconds, or solid hits and defense removal every 4 seconds. Hmmm...
Of course, the argument becomes moot against opponents like target dummies that don't defend or anything, but against even PvE enemies who use defensive enchants and stances, a shattersin just blasts through them.
But its like any other profession, you have to adapt the build to the area you're in, if you know you'll be facing mobs that don't regularly use enchants or stances for protection, then yes, a Moebius-DB is better. If, on the other hand, you know you'll be facing kournan bowmen backed up by aegis spamming healers, then rather than take it in the face because you stubbornly refuse to play anything but Moebius-DB, you take shattersin and mow them down.
The nice thing too is that a shattersin can, every 4 seconds completely wreck an opponent, then move on to the next, quickly and efficiently destroying defense after defense with quick unblockable attacks. Rather than having your casters worry about disenchanting multiple enemies, the shattersin can do that while doing impressive damage, so the casters can focus more on damage mitigation or nuking.
Just recognize that playing Moebius-DB isn't the ONLY way to play a sin, and in many ways is inefficient in various areas. The numbers look good when you do hit, but that's not always a guarantee...
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
stuff
you seem to be ignoring the fact that other characters can do this sort of thing from a much safer position. With the exception of maybe h/h'ing Asura areas (because of raptors), [moebius strike] is much more useful than [Shattering Assault].
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
(yada yada yada, very much /snip)
Of course you could sacrifice huge amounts of DPS because you're too stupid/stubborn to put [skill]rip enchantment[/skill]/[skill]corrupt enchantment[/skill]/what-MFing-ever on any of your Heroes' bars, go right ahead. It's a free world.
As a reminder: [skill]critical defenses[/skill] Yes, that's a 30sec recharge. One removal effect should be enough. Considering a Blossom spammer's DPS
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Of course you could sacrifice huge amounts of DPS because you're too stupid/stubborn to put [skill]rip enchantment[/skill]/[skill]corrupt enchantment[/skill]/what-MFing-ever on any of your Heroes' bars, go right ahead. It's a free world.
Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.Oh, I see, the player is supposed to micromanage all the heroes' skills on every single target. How fun.
Did you ever think that perhaps the reason people play with other builds is because it suits their playstyle, or because the convenience of point-and-click and NOT whiff is more fun than having the screen filled with hero bars and frantic clicking all over the place? Or perhaps you're just too stubborn/stupid to realize that not everyone shares your opinion that Moebius-DB is the only way to play? Or that your opinion is just that, opinion, and far from fact?
As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad.
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
yeah you may have your own different play style, but when it comes down to it MS/DB is the most efficient build out there. If you don't agree with everyone else on the sin forums, STFU and stop feeding us +1's, trying to argue against the best idea is only setting yourself up for failure.
Quote:
They actually are. If it's available, and an enchantment is on their target, they will use it.|
I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom
yes
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]?
lolz @ teh Pee Vee Ee leetness
...or, notsomuch. btw +1
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid
yeah you may have your own different play style, but when it comes down to it MS/DB is the most efficient build out there in my dumb opinion. If you don't agree with everyone else on the sin forums, STFU and stop feeding us +1's, trying to argue against the the cookie cutter build is only setting yourself up for failure due to the sheep like mentality I possess fix'd Define efficiency in this context. Is the Assassin class designed to sit in the middle of a mob and dish out PBAoE damage? No, its a happy coincidence, and one used to great effect. But that does not mean its the most efficient, since you don't even know the definition. If the commonly accepted wisdom (lol) is to turn every sin into a Moebius-DB clone, well you all have fun. I kinda figured that since there's thousands of skills, and yes, other elites even, that assassin builds focused on spiking a target, or completely exposing them to more damage would be just as viable. Ironically, I too use a Moebius-DB build, but I've actually had more fun and enjoyment with a shadow stepping AP build, as well as the shattersin build for the sheer enjoyment of not having to rely on h/h or other players to make sure my sin can do his job. wtb open-mindedness...
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
wtb open-mindedness... enjoyment =/= efficiency I enjoy my [skill]assassin's promise[/skill]-[skill]finish him[/skill] more than my Blossom spammer (especially since I got my Norn rank up to a decent level) but I'll never claim it's more efficient. Truth remains the MS-DB build does the job (which is, killing stuff ASAP) a lot better. End of discussion?
FlamingMetroid
Onoz Everybody's Using It!!!!11!! It Must Be Bad!!!!!1!!
I Must Use A Less Effective Build, So I'm Not A Conformist!1!!!!111 edit-damn guru turned my mother f-ing fury off Q_Q
Kale Ironfist
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Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.
|
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The only problem you should be having is blocking enchantments (which is where Shattering Assault comes in). Everything else can easily be covered by varying the MS/DB Assassin slightly or having the rest of your team do their job properly. IE:Wild Strike for stance removal, Assassins Remedy for Blind, Monk to remove Blurred Vision (which also applies to a Shattering Assault Assassin too). The ability to be able to change the build around like this and still have it be effective is what makes it so strong compared to other builds. |
As a reminder:[Critical Defenses] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [Protective Spirit][Shield of Absorption][Shield of Deflection][Shield of Regeneration]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad.
If you can handle having enchant strips on the midline (which doesn't take much to workaround), it's better to go MS/DB. The only time Shattering Assault is better is if you don't believe you'll get enchantment removal assistance. In a team of 8, this is standard to have.
zling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.
Oh, I see, the player is supposed to micromanage all the heroes' skills on every single target. How fun. Did you ever think that perhaps the reason people play with other builds is because it suits their playstyle, or because the convenience of point-and-click and NOT whiff is more fun than having the screen filled with hero bars and frantic clicking all over the place? Or perhaps you're just too stubborn/stupid to realize that not everyone shares your opinion that Moebius-DB is the only way to play? Or that your opinion is just that, opinion, and far from fact? As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad. oooh so your Assassin has Prot Spirit/SoA/SoD/SoR in his build?  you need some sort of self survivability and Critical Agility+Critical Defenses is just the best combo for Sins... as for the rest, you have heroes for a reason... use them PROPERLY!!!
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
enjoyment =/= efficiency I enjoy my [skill]assassin's promise[/skill]-[skill]finish him[/skill] more than my Blossom spammer (especially since I got my Norn rank up to a decent level) but I'll never claim it's more efficient. Truth remains the MS-DB build does the job (which is, killing stuff ASAP) a lot better. End of discussion? As I said, depends on what you define as efficient. A sin who is blind or blocked can MS-DB all he wants and his efficiency at killing = 0. I wasn't claiming that enjoyment = efficiency either, merely stating that I enjoy other builds more. And in super heavy condition/hex/enchant heavy areas, such as a lot of HM and such, [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill] on one necro isn't going to cut it. Its like asking what build is most efficient for a Paragon? Sure, you can make them into a crit spear, but will that contribute to a team's overall efficiency more or less than an imbagon build? Yes, Moebius+DB deals the most sustained AoE damage, but if you're knocked down, not hitting, blocked, blinded or any other conditions, it doesn't do anything. So logically, a build that is able to still deal out respectable damage whilst negating many of those conditions would necessarily be more efficient than one who cannot. Overall DPS might be lower on a straight up comparison, but over time the ability to strike through anything MAY make up for it. You guys have your opinion, I have mine, let's leave it at that?
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by zling
oooh so your Assassin has Prot Spirit/SoA/SoD/SoR in his build?
you need some sort of self survivability and Critical Agility+Critical Defenses is just the best combo for Sins... as for the rest, you have heroes for a reason... use them PROPERLY!!! Might want to learn to read first, those are enchants a sin has to deal with on enemies, which a shattersin breaks, while a Moebius+DB build does not. I thought that was painfully, glaringly obvious? Guess not. Unreal Havoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Raptor Farming... a discussion best had elsewhere (the build is truly degenerate). If you're in a party just vanquishing for the hell of it, better to have someone else take Rip or Corrupt and happily keep Blossoming.
No one mentioned Raptor farming. Also Shattering Assault (correct me if I'm wrong) has a much shorter recharge than most other forms of enchantment removal. Hit Raptor with chain, switch to next Raptor, hit with chain, switch target, etc.
MS/DB is strong, there's no doubt about that, but it's not appropiate everywhere. petrorabbit
Personally, I jump between Moebius Strike / Death Blossom and Shattering Assault sin, sometimes I like to play Assassin's Promise for zits and giggles. But when it comes down to it, I think Shattering Assault is just more flexible because it can deal with the enemies defense. Yes, the dps on MSDB is insane and rewarding when you actually do pull off all the big numbers. But there have been times when a blind, block stance, or block enchant can screw up my cycle and leave me doing 0 dps till the defenses are taken care of. There are times when switching targets becomes a problem because Golden Phoenix Strike still needs a few seconds to recharge because Moebius Strike didn't hit or something else.
When I play Shattering Assault, I dont' run into those problems i run into with a Moebius build because of the unblockable chain. Sure its fun and can get boring because of the lack of big numbers, but the fact that you hit with every attack just makes the chain more consistant. The only thing you need to worry about is blind which can be taken care of with Assassin's Remedy. Yes i know i have H/H to compensate for all those weeknesses, but there are many times where i'd rather do it myself than rely on the AI to do it for me. There is a reason why many people play different builds. MS/DB is very efficient with damage till the enemy blocks, blinds, or blurs vision you. But I still feel the attacks from a Shattering Assault chain are efficient because the energy you put into your attacks will more likely translate into damage. But that is why I play different builds for different areas. Just don't count out shattering sins because their damage is less than MS/DB. ogre_jd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
Ironically, I too use a Moebius-DB build, but I've actually had more fun and enjoyment with a shadow stepping AP build, as well as the shattersin build for the sheer enjoyment of not having to rely on h/h or other players to make sure my sin can do his job.
I've been having more fun, and been far more effective, with a Critical Barrage build. Nowhere near the front line when I can help it (any reduction in damage-dealing efficiency compared to the standard DB/MS combo is more than made up for by the fact that I don't get squished by Jotuns and such while I'm trying to get the combo off), deals lots of damage against groups (especially in Factions, where they seem to clump up a lot more than Proph/EotN), lots of bleeding against fleshies, no worries about broken chains, and few energy problems.
[Barrage][Distracting Shot][Sharpen Daggers][Critical Eye][Way of the Master][Critical Defenses][Heart of Shadow][Antidote Signet] 13 Critical Strikes, 12 Marksmanship and 3+ Shadow Arts (how much more depends on if you rune in a way to save a 20 point block, of course) and a Zealous bow of some sort (love my Ironwing Flatbow I just got today after Shiro). Can replace [[Heart of Shadow] with [[Viper's Defense] if you prefer to punish the relatively rare swarmings (or charge into the middle of a group, activate, then Barrage against that group to stack the degen), or maybe [[Shadow Refuge] for more reliable healing. Of course, if you have Nightfall, dump the shadow step for [[Critical Agility] (I find keeping the [[Antidote Signet]'s vital - Blindness sucks). Doing a lot better with this build than my Barraging Ranger has ever been able to do.
RavagerOfDreams
^needs more critical agility
anyway in pve Moebius>Shattering for the very simple reason of DPS as for your arguements of enchants...just switch targets as monsters are to retarded to re prot your new target right away. Also Shattering assault has abosutley shitty damage vrs high al targets so your limited to squishes which is baed in pve.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
^needs more critical agility
anyway in pve Moebius>Shattering for the very simple reason of DPS as for your arguements of enchants...just switch targets as monsters are to retarded to re prot your new target right away. Also Shattering assault has abosutley shitty damage vrs high al targets so your limited to squishes which is baed in pve. Somewhat incorrect. [skill]Death Blossom[/skill]'s AoE damage IIRC is armor ignoring, so yes, when you're mobbed as a sin, DB does very good damage. However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better. The other thing to consider is [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] only recharges on <50% health, on high health enemies (such as bosses or in HM) this can take some time, which allows monks to re-prot with protective or healing enchants. There's nothing more annoying than being in an aggro with a couple of dolyak herders casting multiple [skill]Mark of Protection[/skill] around, especially on boss types. In cases like that, you can MS+DB til the cows come home, but it seems to take forever. With SA, you remove it instantly and four seconds later remove any more (remember, its a dual attack so two enchants removed per instance). Point is, MS+DB is great in situations where multiple melee mobs are likely, that do not possess any blocking or blind (including blurred vision). However, is higher end PvE, where protections of all sorts are quite common, SA may be better simply because its a 4 second recharge unblockable dual enchant remover, which I'm pretty sure beats out any other enchant removal in spades. Not to mention the added damage as well. Both camps have their unique advantages, I'd say a shattersin is more versatile in more situations, making the entire party more efficient in killing, whereas a MS+DB sin has the advantage in DPS but depends heavily on support from the group plus being mobbed, which is not a great situation to be in with low armor anyways. Pretty sure most groups would appreciate a shattersin running around busting monk enchants like [skill]Aegis[/skill] and [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] every four seconds, as opposed to depending on [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill] which is only 1 enchant every ten seconds and gives them Bleeding yay! 
petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
...snip
However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better. Just to expand on this for those who are unaware, [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] damage is considered base, so it IS effected by mods like 15^50 and affected by critical hit damage modifiers which the bonus damage on [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] is not. This also means the damage is affected by armor, so naturally warriors and paragons will take less damage from it. But i've seen an SS with a double crit SA hitting for 99 and 140 damage. The target also had armor reducing hexes. As much as [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] and [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] go hand in hand, so does [skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill], [skill]Wild Strike[/skill], and [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] do go together also. With MS DB, usually [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill] and [skill]Critical Strike[/skill] are included, but is also prone to be affected more by target switching and attacks missing much more than the Shattering Chain. Of course, some problems with the Moebius Chain can be fixed by going: [skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] But that doesn't seem to be a popular choice. For a while i used [skill]Wild Blow[/skill][skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] But that doesn't seem to go well burning adrenaline for [skill]Save Yourselves[/skill] Unreal Havoc
Popular choices I've seen with Moebius Strike and Death Blossom that makes stuff explode in high level PvE areas generally has Golden Fang Strike in the build. The base template is normally something like this, and is pretty much the optimal build for serious damage that supplies AoE also with an Assassin in PvE:
[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Unsuspecting Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] Popular optionals are (but not restricted to): "Save Yourselves!" (Reccomended) Death's Charge "I Am The Strongest!" Assassins Remedy "You Move Like a Dwarf!" (For snaring and interrupts). Critical Defenses (Reccomended) Brawling Headbutt (For spamming knockdowns) Restful Breeze Different lead, offhands, and dual attacks such as: Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike can be used to provide stance removal against stance blocking Sneak Attack Golden Phoenix Strike could also be used to open up a second optional slot, at the cost of losing Deep Wound from Golden Fang Strike (Reccomended to have cover enchantments to ensure you can land it). Critical Strike is a common replacement for Critical Eye as alot of people like the energy on demand, I however find it unnessacary with Critical Eye as you keep the critical hit rate up giving higher DPS overall and it takes seconds to regain energy by auto attacking should you need to. Twisting Fangs (Taken alongside Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike normally as a source of Deep Wound) Here's are some examples of builds using different leads and offhands alongside Moebius Strike and Death Blossom: [build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Twisting Fangs][Resurrection Signet][/build] [build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][Critical Eye][Golden Phoenix Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Twisting Fangs][Resurrection Signet][/build] The Moebius Strike and Death Blossom combo is also a popular choice in Assassin farming methods. Here is the solo farming variant commonly run today since the Mystic Regeneration nerf that is capable of farming areas on Hard Mode: [build prof=A/Mo name="Death Blossom" dag=11+1 cri=10+1+2 healin=10][Golden Phoenix Strike][Critical Strike][Moebius Strike][Death Blossom][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][Vigorous Spirit][Live Vicariously][/build] Conclusion I've only touched the tip of the iceberg, seriously. Moebius Strike and Death Blossom is a strong and versatile combo with much room for running different variants that can be quite effective in the majority of areas. There isn't an Assassin build in PvE that matches it for sheer DPS and AoE together with such a short recharge on the skills (that are normally recharged by Moebius Strike anyway). It IS unsuitable in some areas, but those areas ARE few and far between and that DOES make taking Moebius Strike and Death Blossom the "Definitive Assassin build for PvE"
Bobby2
EDIT: Ignore! mustlrn2reed.
Unreal Havoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
EDIT: Ignore! mustlrn2reed.
Indeed you must!
Super Igor
anywai gais, for sins its either DB/MS or Shattersinning, cear?
RavagerOfDreams
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better. ^ incorrect go hit the 100al 80al and 60 al dummies outside of GTB and see how the damage goes just to save you the trouble you hit 24ish on 100 40ish on 80 and 50ish on 60 no criticals 14 Dagger Mastery
CagedinSanity
Arguement was over when someone mentioned how things are situational. I don't want to rehash what has already been said, just read the last 2 pages and it basically sums up my thoughts on why I run Shattering most of the time.
Super Igor
Shattersins are good in areas packed with powerfull monks and lots of blocking enchies/stances on foes.
For example the Stone Summit: they have monks with MoP and similar damage reducing spells and their melee hits very very hard, when you run into a mob with about three mellees and two monks you are in trouble as the melee, enchanted with MoP is hard to kill without ench removals and could wipe important characters of your team, stripping the enchies from the could be very helpful. It some area you get bond monks alongside strong mellee that has ways to kd and similar sutffs, in these cases shattersin is too, very helpful. Overall Shattersin damage is lower than that of MS/DB though. Unreal Havoc
Shattering Assault Assassins are actually pretty damn good to have in the Fissure of Woe. As I said above, MS/DB is the definitive build but it isn't best for every area. Some areas require specific skill setups to work around specific mobs that MS/DB won't cope with, dependant on the teams proffessions you go with too.
If you want to be the sole enchantment remover, Shattering Assault all the way. Want to be the melee AoE inflictor? MS/DB all the way. There is no right or wrong, it depends on who you go with, what they're running, and what you aim to achieve with your build. Super Igor
I use Shattersin quite a lot, it does help gainst those enchie heavy mobs.
petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
It IS unsuitable in some areas, but those areas ARE few and far between and that DOES make taking Moebius Strike and Death Blossom the "Definitive Assassin build for PvE" Although this is true, when it comes to later areas in any campaign, including many areas of EotN alot of enemies are more likely to have blocking stances and prots to a lesser extent. Caster enemies will hex you with blurred vision, or use blindingflash/surge to blind. EotN enemies were designed so people would have to find alternatives to cookie cutter builds. Just look at how this forced many fire elementalists to go a different direction by making destroyers immune to burning. This is also where the weaknesses of MS/DB are exposed by enemies using blind/blurred vision, any kind of block stances, and enchant based prots. This is also where the Shattersin shines because it can bypasses stances and prots. Since a shattersin can run with a 3-4 skill combo, have Critical Agility, and 3-4 more utility skills, the build can easily run Assassin's Remedy to counter blind. At this point, only hexes can really deter a shattersin. Of course MS/DB can run assassins remedy and wild strike to overcome stances, they will definately have to compromise their bar by running a 4(single dual)-5(two duals) chain combo with critical agility leaving room for 2-3 slots for utility. If you use Assassin's Remedy and Save Yourselves, now you have no slots, maybe 1 for Critical Defense if you decide to go with just Death Blossom as your dual attack. So yes, MS/DB is good for a bulk of the areas, which are about easy to moderate in difficulty. But the Shattersin is better for the harder areas because of its ability to bypass defense and counter melee hate. Basically it comes down to what you think is best for where you are in the game and how you want to play. [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] = DPS and Dual Combinations [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] = Utility and reliability Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by petrorabbit
This is also where the weaknesses of MS/DB are exposed by enemies using blind/blurred vision, any kind of block stances, and enchant based prots of all kind. This is also where the Shattersin shines because it can bypasses stances and prots. Since a shattersin can run with a 3-4 skill combo, have Critical Agility, and 3-4 more utility skills, the build can easily run Assassin's Remedy to counter blind. At this point, only hexes can really deter a shattersin. Of course MS/DB can run assassins remedy and wild strike to overcome stances, they will definately have to compromise their bar by running a 4(single dual)-5(two duals) chain combo with critical agility leaving room for 2-3 slots for utility. If you use Assassin's Remedy and Save Yourselves, now you have no slots, maybe 1 for Critical Defense if you decide to go with just Death Blossom as your dual attack. So yes, MS/DB is good for a bulk of the areas, which are about easy to moderate in difficulty. But the Shattersin is better for the harder areas because of its ability to bypass defense and translate energy into damage more frequently. |
Save Yourselves is nice to have on your bar but you don't need to take it if your team runs an Imbagon allowing you to run Critical Defenses if you need to (personally I've never bothered running CD in PvE) or a Resurrection Signet. Failing that just drop your Resurrection Signet, the only person who should ever need resurrecting in the party is you if everyone else has +100 armour. If your Monks can't keep you alive with +100 armour spammed on the whole party then they fail hard. Sad, and harsh, but true.
[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Assassins Remedy][Save Yourselves][/build]
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Basically it comes down to what you think is best for where you are in the game and how you want to play.
That I agree with wholeheartedly, just that 9/10 times it's MS/DB spamming. 
petrorabbit
^ posted before i was done editing.
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
Also wanted to add that a Shattersin also has no problems keeping up SY because of ias. Its the same in my conlcusion, Shattersin offers more utility and reliablity, while MS/DB offers more DPS. Quote: ^ incorrect
go hit the 100al 80al and 60 al dummies outside of GTB and see how the damage goes just to save you the trouble you hit 24ish on 100 40ish on 80 and 50ish on 60 no criticals 14 Dagger Mastery Although the damage from SA is mitigated by higher AL, it can easily be remedied somewhat by swapping to elemental daggers vs wars, so they only have 80AL. When that target is at the 50% breakpoint, just order your group to [skill]Finish Him[/skill] and DW and CA will do the rest. Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by petrorabbit
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Seen and changed to reflect.
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Also wanted to add that a Shattersin also has no problems keeping up SY because of ias. Its the same in my conlcusion, Shattersin offers more utility and reliablity, while MS/DB offers more DPS.
What makes MS/DB so strong at maintaing SY over Shattering Assault is spamming MS/DB, you have a short downtime of using Shattering Assaults chain which leaves you autoattacking leaving you with much less DPS. Also you have a much higher recharge on your Deep Wound (if taken: Impale) that isn't recharged by your attacks and is none spammable on multiple enemies and is time spent not attacking to maintain adrenaline. The only thing I see that Shattering Assault has any advantage is in removing enchantments to be honest. Both builds use four attack skills (mostly except in some variants) which leaves the same amount of room for utilities in both (which in both builds is almost pretty much the same skills anyway). Also Shattering Assault doesn't have as good energy management as MS/DB as it's not spamming it's dual attacks enough and has a costly dual attack too. Here's both matching up side by side with stance removal included (for those who are wondering wtf we're going on about, lol): [build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] [build prof=A/any name="Shattering Assault" dag=11+1 cri=12+1 dea=6+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Shattering Assault][Impale][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] All in all, both builds are good at what they do. If you need enchantment removal (which in all of Guild Wars I have only really needed to use it as an Assassin in two areas) Shattering Assault is great. If you want something thats going to make stuff explode then it's MS/DB all the way. The difference here is that MS/DB is versatile enough to be used almost anywhere with just a few modifications to the build, meaning that with its heightened DPS compared to Shattering Assault there's not really any reason you shouldn't be using it except for enchantment removal. petrorabbit
When it comes to [skill]Save Yourselves[/skill] all you need is adrenaline to fuel it, not dps. And remember, when you're not hitting your target, you're not building adrenaline, which the Shattersin is very capable of. I agree, the DPS of SA is not as good as MS/DB, i just think SA is more reliable without having to compromise your main combo. The main reason why many love MS is because you can bring more than one Dual attack to chain. Even in your example, you reference having a spammable DW through Twisting Fangs. This makes your attack chain 5 skills with GFS and WS. This also means you lose a utility skill, like Critical Eye for energy management, or assassins' remedy for blind, or even SY for group buff. I really can't say spammable DW is that much of an advantage since you're giving up a utility slot. Yes the utility may be the same, its just a Shattersin can bring more utility to the group even if it is one more slot.
Although MS/DB is great overall, I just don't think it is that much better than a shattersin. MS/DB may be the "Definative Best" for the easy to moderate areas, but the utility and reliablity of a Shattersin is just better for those less common harder areas.
Bobby2
/agree
My thoughts exactly... even if I may use harsher terms. Except for the final part, I still believe ench removal should be left to those classes better suited to such a task. The Sin's main strength is front-loaded damage, any sacrifice in this area should be justified imo; Shattering reduces your damage output to mediocre at best and results in the entire attack chain essentially being devoted to the removal of enchantments (CritDefenses is the main tripping block here right -.-' ). As said before: Heroes are that 1337. @ petro: ANY Sin with CritAgility can keep up SY! for nigh constantly by just c-spacing. Damage inflicted doesn't influence adrenaline gain - so Blossom spammers and Shattersins will be equally adept at using this skill. To round off, in my mind there was never any question about whether one should go /W for SY! - imo any class able to build adren doing what it does already (W, A, R, P, D) should VERY strongly consider bringing it. For Assassins, normally offering NOTHING besides DPS to their party, never using adrenaline in the first place, it feels like a crime not to bring it. (Of course this doesn't apply to solo builds.) EDIT in response to petro's last... I'll take DB spam into the most notorious areas. Luckily my Guild leader does too so we're happily Blossoming together. We've both settled on: [skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill] I haven't had any of my attacks miss on our last run... but with a lot of Mesmer fanboiz one can expect a heavy emphasis on debuffs on any occasion
petrorabbit
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
Except for the final part, I still believe ench removal should be left to those classes better suited to such a task. The Sin's main strength is front-loaded damage, any sacrifice in this area should be justified imo; Shattering reduces your damage output to mediocre at best and results in the entire attack chain essentially being devoted to the removal of enchantments (CritDefenses is the main tripping block here right -.-' ). As said before: Heroes are that 1337. |
Usually, I have 1 Necro Hero running [skill]Blood is Power[/skill] on an MM template to ensure my healers and nukers constantly have energy. But that is my preference and why I see more value in a ShatterSin
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@ petro: ANY Sin with CritAgility can keep up SY! for nigh constantly by just c-spacing. Damage inflicted doesn't influence adrenaline gain - so Blossom spammers and Shattersins will be equally adept at using this skill.
I am aware of this, that's why I brought it up. Maybe this should have been @unreal? Quote:
But here's the main point. MS/DB maintains Save Yourselves spamming AoE double striking and doing a load of damage to go on top of it. There's little point in taking an Assassin that doesn't kill stuff. Shattering Assault does not make things explode like MS/DB does, it's a utility build to setup targets for other classes to take care of the targets stripped defenses. Unless you really NEED enchantment removal, that your support proffessions can't take care of, there really is little reason to run a Shattering Assault Assassin over MS/DB in PvE, especially to maintain Save Yourselves due to your double strike rate in building up adrenaline compared to Shattering Assault.
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The main reason why many love MS is because you can bring more than one Dual attack to chain. Even in your example, you reference having a spammable DW through Twisting Fangs. This makes your attack chain 5 skills with GFS and WS. This also means you lose a utility skill, like Critical Eye for energy management, or assassins' remedy for blind, or even SY for group buff. I really can't say spammable DW is that much of an advantage since you're giving up a utility slot. Yes the utility may be the same, its just a Shattersin can bring more utility to the group even if it is one more slot.
In PvE you will rarely need anything else other than MS/DB dual attack wise. However the most common builds that run two dual attacks swap Critcal Eye for Critical Strike which provides refreshment for your enchantments and critical hits and energy management on demand on top of doing critical damage. You can also run Golden Phoenix Strike and skip your lead for an extra utility slot. Blocking enchantments and stances aren't a major issue because you should be targeting casters in most areas anyway. However the main point here is that the MS/DB build is flexible and can be changed to suit just about any foe you face and still maintain a solid DPS rate compared to using Shattering Assault which in comparison has poor DPS. The builds I showed with Twisting Fangs in were just example builds to show how flexible MS/DB can be, it's main advantage is that you can keep up the double strike hit rate. Unless you need a second dual attack to serve a specific purpose there's no point in wasting utility for it. What skills you take with a MS/DB build depend largely on the area you are heading into, and with good forward planning you can use MS/DB on almost anything in the game. Quote:
Here we go.
CE wasn't the only example I noted but it is irrelevant, since all scenarios you describe differ from the (my) norm. Bad pulls tend not to occur. Guardian can be avoided by switching targets (and let Blossom's and Splinter's AoE damage nab the Monk anyway). There you have the main source of our party's damage output: our (scarce) Eles favour Water and Earth - so no nukers to please! Everybody happy If you are truly worried, your MM Hero can always slot [skill]well of the profane[/skill]. I'm just trying to emphasize it's not worth your Elite. Quote: I am aware of this, that's why I brought it up. Maybe this should have been @unreal?
Guess so, then.
Oh dear, what have we gotten ourselves into Quote:
I prefer both actually. SA still kills stuff, it just leans more on utility.
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Exactly =)But Hence, Quote:
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