Changes to PvE Skills, and Consumables

Unless you've been living in a cave these last few months, the use of PvE skills and consumables has been a hot topic. This thread is'nt to go into the pros and cons of these but to suggest a way to change their effects such as to continue to make them fun to use, but also encourage more versitile skill usage and play styles.

Now,what i'm suggesting is that we leave pve skills and consumables exactly as they are. Many people enhoy them and for loads of people they are a great fun way just to mess about in game. However it is clear that their use has affected high end PvE in a negative way in terms of player skill, builds and profession usage. So how to balance it up.

In many video games(esp consoles) cheats are provided by the developers, but progress is often hindered or the same games are marked with CHEAT etc.

My suggestion is that if a player uses A PvE skill. or a party wide consumable then that player forfiets the ability to place the statue in the HoM and recieves reduced drops from the end reward chest. Ofc the rest of the team wont be affected to stop griefing.

Therefore people can ursan away to their hearts content kill everything, still farm the areas, but to earn the acheivement or maximise drops they need to run a non pve/cons build. Like hardmode rewards people for upping the difficulty, this would do the same.

That sounds really good imo. It will promote creativity at least until the next gimmick is created

You do realize you are proposing that the following scenario should occur.

Person A, B, and C are playing a dungeon.

Person C uses Signet of Capture somewhere within the dungeon to get an elite.

Person A and B get drops from the chest, person C does not.

After all, person C used a PvE skill.


Why should Triple Shot prevent me from getting drops? Is Ether Nightmare breaking the game? Why should using "Don't Trip" against the Great Destroyer negate the event for handbooks?

This is, sorry to say, not a good idea.

I dont like the idea of the person that uses the cons or a pve skill decreases the drops of the end chest, seems a little too harsh for something that isnt a cheat in the first place.

Itll havr to affect something but im not sure what. Maybe increase the rewards for the people who actually run proper team builds? Like old school style.

So I shouldn't be able to use TNTF on my paragon because you hate Urasn blessing?

What does that accomplish other than allowing players who don't use PvE skills to say "Look how 1337 I am"?

Let's look at them individualy.

The Factions PvE skills from Luxon/Kurzik, they are immensely powerful in many cases, but require a fairly excessive grind to get them up to a high level. The worst offender, "Save Yourselves" is more of a problem due to how the Paragon works than it is by itself (Warriors don't get the benefit when they use it themselves, making it slightly less effective as they're often the ones needing it most), though that doesn't mean it's still not ridiculously effective.

The Faction Endgame PvE skills are not an issue, as they are built into the endgame areas only.

The Sunspear PvE skills aren't wholely nasty, and while they are a little more powerful than some normal skills, they aren't so powerful as to make themselves vital to any and every build.

I admittedly haven't used the Lightbringer skills, but I believe their effectiveness is limited to NF, making them much less of an issue.

The EotN skills are a different animal all together. Some are quite powerful. A majority of them are in a similar space to the Sunspear skills, where they are effective, but not needed in some builds. Others are significantly more powerful than normal skills, to the point of finding their way on most PvE builds that don't look to exclude them.

The big problem children are the transformations, that override your entire skill bar, and there's a thread discussing them elsewhere. Basicly, most players think changing those to something similar to the Dervish's Avatars, where they augment you, but you continue to use your other selected skills is a good compromise, and then making the transformation skills valuable, but not so powerful where they might be a required part of builds.

I don't have a lot of experience with Consumables, but given they require Skill points, and some of their effects are not unlike consumables given out during festivals, I don't see them as a big problem.

Ultimately, here's the issues. Are the people that using them and having fun having wrongbad fun and need to be stopped? Are people who don't use these skills losing out on something or directly harmed by their use? Do the PvE skills fit into the campaign they're in and add to the value and lore of the game? Do any skills cause serious functionality problems or overpower other options extensively?

Well, my answers are 1) No, 2) No, 3) the EotN ones are the only truely problematic ones, and some of them do feel squeezed in to add something cool, and 4) Unforuntately, yes. Ursan, Pain Inverter, "Save Yourselves" are probably the three worst offenders, but there are others that are a bit over the top in power.

Just to clarify, only the person who uses PvE skills would be affected.

It's not just ursan. SY and TNTF are just as broken, only that people don't know what they can do. Seed of life, in spite of the nerf is also too good not to be on most monks bars. Consumables just break the game full stop.

This way, people could choose what they wanted to do. Play for rewards or play for fun. Same as hard mode, call it harder mode

and for places that do not have an end chest, jack shi* happens? kewl.

The original point of this thread is utter non sense, the implied premises being:

-All players must conform to my personal playing prerogatives.

My reply to this is: You don't have to use cons or PVE skills, or for that matter party with people who do. Modern Governments were setup to prevent people like you from imposing their will on the masses.

If you don't like how the use of an as of yet un nerfed skill, you don't have to use it. Stop trying to shape Guild Wars into the game you want it to be.

If you have a problem with how the new skills might affect the game economy don't forget many, and I mean MANY FoW/UW runs are ruined by total newbs who don't know how to do quests/hold aggro/leech etc etc. I don't buy the argument that Ursan is a newb only skill. Calling it such is an easy dismissal and a cop out of a real argument.

Personally I think you might want to show more respect for the game developers who are obviously doing quite a good job to attract and maintain such a large community, of which you are a voluntary a contributor.

Peace out.

As long as you are a monk, ele, or a warrior.

The problem here is that this proposes rewarding people who CHOOSE to gimp themselves because they consider the road to the reward to be more important then the reward itself. I just don't see why the extra reward is needed for such individuals because they had clearly voted against it.
So no - I don't see why people should be rewarded for not using the best options available.
It's just forcing a concept on the userbase THAT can already be achieved now.
If you don't like - don't use it.


(Ohh and in case if anyone who is working on GW2 is reading this - clearly this ONLY aplies to GW1 because it's broken beyond words!)

No it's not that at all. I never even mentioned the economy, by doing this people can still farm areas with Pve skills as much as they like. Only the end game chest and ability to put a shiny statue in the HoM. The effect on the economy would be minimal.

I'm sorry if you can't see the harm to the game in having skills that are so powerful they obliterate all other builds and professions in the game. Read the many millions of threads on it in the riverside forum.

Maybe the simplest thing would be to not allow cons and pve skills in hard mode, which is how hard mode was designed to be in the first place.

Is this the reason why you made this suggestion?

No. I want to give people who like whoosh bang kickass the ability to do so and also open up the game again to other builds than those crammed full of over powered skills and sweeties.

Nerfing the skills would destroy the whoosh bang aspect so many enjoy so would be a bad option. This one gives them the option and incentive to do something different as well. Currently there is no in game incentive to do so.

Before you open the game to other builds, you also need to terminate the cookie-cutter builds; before the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they dominated every PvE areas into the game. Even with the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they still managed to dominate some areas into the game such as Slaver's Exile.

Couldn't agree more. Long before pve skills and consumables there was class restriction and specific builds only allowed in "high end" pve (that still sounds funny to me) Who benefits from taking away the monument from a player who got it by using a pve skill? The only thing I can see is that the people who got it without pve skills can boast about it. And really, who cares about what you did in the game other then youself? E-peen is a truly sad thing and I hear this kind of thing all the time. People who are somehow "harmed" by anothers success. You can't add multi reward systems to GW and not have a HUGE backlash. There's absolutley no reason to change the reward sysyem. The people who use pve skills or consumables aren't cheating so there's no need to punish them as if they're doing something wrong.

Be the good little player and don't use pve skills like Ursan and we'll reward you. Be a bad little player by using Ursan and we'll F*****G PUNISH YOU! Yeah I can see that going over really well.

We have a title that awards people who do things in game called hard mode. How is this any different?

Not signed.

Dont like pve skills? Dont use them. What makes your cookie cutter build better or more deserving than my usan grind build. At least i put in my hours to max the title. You got your coookie cutter build within 5 minutes from guru. PVE skills is anet's way of keeping players intresteded in the game.

I'm KOBD 4 thanks to ub and pi. I do everrything with h/h! Without pve skills i would have lost intrest and quit playing a long time ago.

Go anet! Keep it appealing to a broad base of players.

Remove Pve Skills and consumables, add two skillsets ( For PvE and PvP) and the problem will stop.

Quoted for the truth.

Hopefully this is how they will do it in GW2.

GW1 is just broken beyond broken with all the PVE only crap that turns everything in the game into easy mode for dummies.

I find fun in GW from running my own builds and the creativity that the diverse skill selection allows. Ursan removes this entirely from the game.

However, I cant actually play FoW or UW anymore because I cant ever find a non ursan group. This is how it affects me negatively.

Class selection was a previous problem yes, but that is due to the inability of the person forming the group, not the class. There have been many mesmer UW clearing groups, and you can even try to create your own custom group whenever you like. But you cant while every tom dick and harry is playing Ursan.

People who use PvE skills and Consumables would no longer get any real worthwhile rewards...

So then what would be the point of using them?

Not only that, but you're suggesting that only the person who activates a party-wide consumable would be at fault. I understand why that works for anti-griefing purposes, but it's very unfair at the same time. One person shouldn't have to take the hit for the entire team.

/notsigned

Another attempt to "fix" the game ...
The argument against is, it's YOUR opinion the game is "broken", so then of course the "fix" makes sense.
I dont see the game as broken, so why fix it?

Your opinion is that the game should promote a challenge by forcing the players into creating builds.
My opinion is that pvxwiki would be populated with builds to circumvent what you propose in a very short time, so there is no difference.

Your opinion is one player should be rewarded better than another for not using something the game developers clearly saw fit to put in the game.
My opinion is if one player chooses not to use something readily available in game, they are foolish not to, but anyway who cares?

The basis of all of the Ursan and other "broken" skills argument is that there is some unspoken higher form of game play and ethic that needs to be adhered to.
That is utter nonsense, simply because it is a game. If you live your life with that same "higher" ethic, great, awesome for you. You chose to live that way, so it effects your life
Do you walk around imposing that ethic on strangers? Do you insist that your neighbors live by the same ethic and carry out their lives as you do because you think its right? Do you act a certain way in life in expectation of a reward?
No ... well, i hope not ... so why insist it be imposed in a game?
That you acted a specific way and completed a task as you saw was the correct way, whether in life or in a game, should be enough of a reward.
So why impose it on others?

So, if I'm not a warrior, elementalist or a monk, how the hell am I going to get any statue at all?

/not signed, stop trying to make people play the way you want.

Nothing to do what what I personally think about Ursan etc.

Common sense dictates that in game with 11 professions, thousands of skills to have but 2 (Ursan and monk) that eradicates every other profession and every build just has to be bad for it.

I play a mesmer, a lot. It has'nt stopped me getting done what I wanted to do. It takes extra effort for sure, but it is doable. Neither has it stopped assasins, rits, Paragons etc.

Anyway, I'd still suggest hardmode be changed to exclude Pve Skills and cons use for the increased challenge and options it gives.

just learn to play better and there is never a need for cons / PvE only skills !!!

only thing I am against is SS rez signet - its a fair rez and shouldnt be counted towards it IMO
firstly see above about rez sig - but yay good idea!!! Hm isnt challenging anyway - but why make it even easier with cons and rubbish alike! ursan *cough cough*

at Serod - heard of a non-nooby Guild? that does runs without ursan / trinity teams?
I get teams as a ranger or mesmer when I play ^^

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off topic - any chance of an opening in DVDF??? - can post "crudentials"!

I dunno, those sunspear res teams, just destroys Mallyx :O. just wondering if it would be possible to do a a mission or vanquish just using SS res.

As for the OT, PM on me guru and we'll see.

Truth be told ... Most of the 11 classes and thousands of skills were damaged at inception. Cookie cutter builds quickly weeded out the useless skills and the creation of pvxwiki further compounded the disuse of thousands of skills for ones with only favorable attributes.

You feel HM should be buffed ... others would say HM is hard enough as it is.
Should the game developers now begin catering to a small sect of players that feel the game isnt challenging enough?
Most casual players feel the game is more than challenging, so should they be penalized and not receive rewards because they dont want to invest entire days of their life in crafting "old school" builds?

I could follow the same path as easily and say that players who use quality time tested builds like Imbagon, 55 and 600 monks and 3 hero Necro teams (that list can go on and on) should be rewarded better for having the ability to see when something works well, and the sense to use it.

A change such as you propose would then open the doors to many other similar demands ... such as;
The game now detects when you have a Guildwiki window open, and will be counted as cheating for reading quest or mission descriptions while in game.

It sounds silly, but really its along the same lines as what your proposing, and would follow the strict "old school" edict, so why not?

As i said before, if a player wishes to play the game following some edict they feel makes them leet ... awesome for them.
This edict shouldnt be imposed on the community as a whole.

honestly don't really know much about that one ^^ haven't DoA'd for a while as Guild-less and don't want to ursan / use cons / waste money on cons in the first place to get to him!

so - maybe remove them in HM - but wouldn't mind keeping legal to NM use it on my newb ele atm! better then rez signet! - rebirth work in the same way as SSRS? in terms of transporting allys to your location? or were you commenting on the full HP / mana restore (soz been playing star ocean) :P
HP/energy - for hypocrites :

- 12 classes - Chuck Norris has his own class with 7 heroes 2 elites and lvl22 as max lvl - taken from other threads I read!

vote for uber mode:: /sign

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off topic - any chance of an opening in DVDF??? - can post "crudentials"! if you actually care at all ^^

Ah crap I guess Summon Spirit and Vampirism is too uber for HM?

Before the last update my Vampirism 75% of the time just stood there and did nothing.

Shanaeri, there is problem: People who cared already got their shiny statues with Ursan/consumable crap. Your ideas would be just symbolic nerf, not real one.

Fact still remains thou, it messed up PvE real bad. And i think its irreversible.

then why use it ? lol

tbh i liekd that it was a step in a new direction but besides pve skills there are only 3 main roles for soem areas, Healer,Tank and Nuke.

Also what would happen if one person used a party wide buff (a la Essance)? would 1 person only get restriced drops or everyone?

Well it was always a good way to block a mob for a second and the description seemed to be so uber! deals damage and heals you looked awesome.


Oh yeah Light of Deldimor with 20 sec recharge and mainly used for hidden chests shouldn't be considered "cheating" skill.

I like the idea in principle, however as zwei2stein said, the horse has bolted and every existing achievement has been devalued to nothingness. The correct solution at this stage is to add an extra set of achievements on top for those who play the game without relying on the pve crutches much like what was done with the introduction of HM.

another valid reason to introduce uber mode :P or make a new type of monster that can strip the effects of cons / ursan from your character :P yippee problem solved

Zwel.

It might help going forward tho. Like people got mega rich from pre prot bond nerf and trader resets. It got fixed and the game adjusted in time.

My heart says you are right, my head wants to see something done to bring things under control

Some skills would obviously be excluded (SS res etc) but I think we all know the difference between SS Res and TNTF for example

Mischivous mode on
They could always delete everyones elite mission statues, put this in and make em do it again

*hides*
Mischivous mode off

So... they add PvE skills and consumables so people that cannot get the statue gets it, and you suggest the opposite...

So, why would people use them, then? It would be the same as removing them.

So, this is not the solution.

good idea really wipe all statues - and only allow them to be gotten by not using PvE/cons - only two drawbacks I can see here -

1: people who didn't use the above will have to redo - FoW with just 3 heroes takes alot of time - I know
2: service thread is full of runners - I know very well from being friends with a few they don't use PvE/cons () small flaw there - and can't introduce you must do a certain amount of moving or damage or something as this would mess up the monks - who would have to atk and heal to get a statue with the team dying in the so-called "elite" areas
<<<just throwing the ideas out there!

The reality is, is that Anet screwed up the design of DoA so that only a few professions could ever beat it. Instead of changing it to be more like the UW/FoW which are a reasonable challenge, but can be done by everyone they put a few skills in the game which negate the needs for different professions at all. People then took the tools Anet put in to bandaid over their messed up design and used them elsewhere, which is where we are today..

I fully acknowledge that people love rampaging everywhere and any nerf to skills would ruin their enjoyment of the game. I am also aware that people without Gwen, or the time to grind out a title are put at a significant disadvantage in terms of finding a team. More than ever I was as a mesmer. Added to this that the areas were balanced and designed for teams with non super power buffs and the issue becomes clear.

By rewarding teams more who play in the areas, as they were designed(Doa needs a redo), while not overly punishing those who still want to whoosh bang seems a good idea IMHO

which in some ways comes back to the argument of making PvE only skills only usable in their areas - luxon in luxon areas; kurz in kurz areas; SS / LB in Elona only; ursan in norn areas only! etc.

and yes DoA does need a redo so all professions can play together - like happy tree friends (without the mindless death as it is now!)

game / profession / rank discrimination is still the main problem incorporated by these add-ons / titles / skills / profession all together!

play monk and your always wanted ^^

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off-topic crudentials? want to join ^^