PvP vs. PVE

What I do not like or understand is the animosity that exists between these to aspects of the same game amongst its players. Is there a way to over come this? The "PvE scrubs" or the "PvP idiots". It should not exist. It is 1 thing to talk like that amongst your guildies and friends but to post this all over forums and in game? Why? PvP and PvE both have good players and bad ones but to say my side is better than the other is plain stupidity on the part of those that think this way. Stupidity can be overcome with knowledge and the point of this thread is to create awareness and to discuss possible ways to do overcome this mindset.

PvP isn't getting any more balances and will stagnate and die, I don't see how this is an issue anymore. This thread won't last long either...

A lot of people are dumb. A thread isn't going to change that.

the difficulty levels for any game:
easy>normal>hard>pvp

you raise a very good point, as i know some very good, (and also some very bad), players in each aspect of the game.

each of these aspects is aimed at a different type of game player. pve being for more casual players who enjoy the rpg storyline side of the game, and pvp is for the more hardcore players, who like to spend more time playing, and also playing at a higher (percieved) skill level.

personally, i enjoy both parts of the game, but i play more pvp than pve, as i find it more engaging. but that doesnt mean i dont enjoy the odd hard mode mission or farming trip with friends.


however, on a side note, this thread is probably going to turn into a flame-fest, or go completely off-topic within another few posts, but oh well, good job on starting this anyway ^^

There are a lot of things that should not exist but do.

The typical PvP player for me would be a person that feels the need to be the best (or at least very good).
The typical PvE player would be someone who plays more for relaxation and less to be the best.
There are some exceptions, specially PvE players who like to be the best in PvE but that cannot really be compared to fighting and winning against human players.
It's like comparing people who play Counter Strike to people playing let's say Sims Online.

Now with two distinct types of players there will be tension.
That's not good, not bad, just different kind of people.

I'm a PvE'er. I do not PvP due to the fact that I am bad at it. Very bad indeed. My ability to strategise and think on the fly does not work for PvP. I would like to, PvP sounds like a lot of fun, alas it is not fun I can have.

This does not make me at all bitter to PvP or PvP'ers, mind you. I find my fun elsewhere and leave PvP alone. Well alone (my involvement is an insult to proper PvP'ers, I feel).

I understand why some people choose to taunt PvE/P'ers, but I still think it child-ish and unnecessary. So what if someone has fun in a different aspect fo the game? Big whoop, why should it bother you (if it's not harming you)?

Honestly, just leave the divide alone. It's there, it always will be, no need to touch it.

Better version:

Random Arenas (wammos, lol) >
Normal PvE Areas (average areas) >
Team Arenas (go go gimmicks) >
Hard PvE Areas (Realm of Torment) >
Heroes' Ascent (go go metagame) >
Elite Missions (they're here for time required and the lack of an H/H option) >
Guild vs Guild (difficult forming decent teams) >
Standing Around In Towns Haranguing The Masses (also the most fun)

At least, that's pretty much the order of things as I did them from least to hardest. Now I pretty much hover around SAITHTM, what I view as the true Guild Wars endgame.

PvPer vs PvEer animosity exists for the same reason Jocks vs Nerds exsists in RL. Same reasons people live beyond their means just to show off better stuff to their neighbor.

It's nothing to do with the game, it's just human nature.

QFT, thats what i was exactly going to say

Mostly, it comes from the fact that they have opposing interests when it comes to game updates. For a very long time, PvP issues were given top priority by the devs, even at the expense of doing serious damage to the PvE experience -- which is something that ended up happening quite a bit. Every time they got their builds ruined or their favor skills nerfed to dust, PvEers became more and more resentful (and understandably so), thus the PvE-to-PvP animosity. I'm not quite sure where the PvP-to-PvE animosity comes from, but I'd speculate that it's a combination of (1) disliking the PvEers who dislike them right back, (2) disliking anyone who's speaking out on the forums against changes they need/want/like, (3) a feeling that "well, if a-net treats me special, maybe I really am special," and (4) general asshattery.

3 Things started PvP hate.

1) Ascalon Arena's in Prophecies 10th level and under.

People got ran to Droknar early in the game. They had better armor, skills, equipment for characters of 10th level and under. This left a sour taste in the mouth of many people just learning the game. Since they had to compete with people who who had an obvious uncontrolled advantage. This still happens today.

2) Rank E-motes

Before Rank Emotes for H&H people would just join up with teams and have fun. When the Rank Emotes appeared people were discriminated against on a daily basis, it only got worse over time. Fun became less and less a factor.

3) Skill updates.

It was one thing to update a skill to reflect a change that was needed in the game. For example ranger spirit spamming was a serious problem as you could create physical barriers to prevent enemies from moving into your area. For thoes that remember Power of My Rangers created some serious challenges for many teams during this H&H exploit. However ANET took another approach to the updates. They no longer fixed skills and did minor adjustments. They effectively eliminated entire skill line ups. Not just one skill in the game but multiple lines. It first started with the Ritual Lord Nerf then moved onto other entire lines of builds. Now we can argue all day if these skills were over powered thats not the point. These nerfs ruined the PvE experience that is just as important as the PvP challenge and balance. Failure to separate PvP and PvE ideals and concepts created an even stronger division. Thus the two became bitter rivals like twins trying to control the attention of a single parent.

In conclusion I don't blame the community for the division I blame ANET for promoting the hostility that continues today. In short ANet created the hostility by not fully understanding the mentality of both worlds and forcing the combination of the two on the player. This can be achieved by forcing the login to one of two servers, a PvP server and a PvE server. One server has one set of skills the other another more balanced set of skills for PvP play.

To date there is no separation of PvP and PvE skills as there should be.
Grind for PvE skills for power that prohibits many PvP players from enjoying the fun aspects of power PvE play. (For those who know what I'm speaking of I'm not referring to Ursan) PvP emotes discriminate vs. someone who might want to begin learning PvP play. Both area's of the game discriminate vs. the other.

I and almost all of my friends are both a Jocks and a Nerds. You will find now and days less and less of a separation. Although this might have been true 20+ years ago.

You are kidding with the no more balances part right? If not you truly are disillusioned. You think there will be no more skill balances ever again? Stop your QQ and be realistic, of course there will be.


As for the Elitism/snobbery done by pvp/pve people, it really is annoying, you have the pve = greaterest of all and pvp sux, then you have the pvp people the same way. Both look down on anyone that isnt X or Y because they were. In the end, all it does is fracture the community into fragments. You wonder why there are less PUGS (besides heros) it is the snobbery that people have bred from their elitist attitude toward their "skill" in this game.

In the end, it is a game, it has pve AND pvp, both are integral parts to it surviving now and in the future. To say you are better cause you are pro pve OR pvp is just foolish, its a game, go have some fun, stop all the snobbery and enjoy yourself and let others do the same

I'm pretty sure the tension is related to skill updates.. the PvE's would complain when their farming builds were nerfed and would come QQ here (I should know, I once did just that) where they would get flamed.

Recently anet reverted a skill balance because they didn't want to affect the PvE aspect of the game, this gives the PvP group the idea that anet no longer cares about balance and just want to cater to the PvE'ers happiness.

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill, and therefore, call the competitive players "Elitist" to give them a bad image.

And +1.

So true. Different people with different mind sets play whatever suits their need for entertainment. It's just a shame we all can't respect each other's differences and not resort to insults because someone else is "different".

(In before the flamefest )

You see that's part of the issue right there. What you are saying can be debated since there are many area's that require just as much skill in PvE. I think the DVDF UW competition proved that theory. There were many UW teams that had strong PvP players in it who simply could not complete that task before them, complete all UW quests in a fast amount of time, and yet failed in that task.

Skill in a video game can be defined as many things to many players. Overall skill usually equals the amount of time within your enviroment. Your argument is more subjective than fact. Fact would be the strong discrimination that occurs because of Rank Emotes in a public video game.

Go to H&H and tell people you are rank 1 wanting to learn the PvP game, and then see what happens. Now go to any PvE starting area and start LFG. Right away you can see the difference in attitude as the PvE area's have a friendlier approach to new players. This fact of attitude to new players PvE or PvP cannot be denied as it can be proven in actual game play. I'm not saying this is the only element of dissention between the two just one factor of many.

Skill is about how you play, not where you play. The people who have just come into online gaming and think that Guild Wars is the best PVP ever in any game have a long way to go.

I agree.

I would also add that skill happens over time in any game. The more you play it the better you get at it. Skill is not just defined by what you play (PvP or PvE) or how you play it.

As a former championship level Counter Strike player I can fully agree on your brief synopsis. I would continue to play at a competition level but I just don't have the time any more. I'm sure I'm still very skilled at the game but I have not touched the game in over a year and two months. Less time playing less skilled I became. Same goes with PvP, the more you play the better skilled you are same with PvE, only PvE has an easier introduction.

First, I'm dead tired of hearing the term "PvE scrub". Such comments give the PvP community a bad image and yet they expect to be loved and praised? Yeah right. They make it sound like it applies to the whole PvE-only community while it doesn't.

PvP takes more skills, yes. I agree. (See, I agree!)

But PvE takes skills to be done effectively as well. See how bad a team does when no one listens or even cares for the current map, and see what a good PvE team is. They'll plow through the mobs.

To me, if you're in my PvE team and you cannot play your build correctly, or your class, or whatever... you could be R9 Hero and I wouldn't give a ****. I can tell you this because I've had it happen; some guy who bragged and bragged of being an awesome R9 player overextended and blew up at the monk for not healing him (was a Tombs run), that he was still an awesome player and the rest of the team sucked before raging. I was later PMed and insulted.

Well tell you what. If you behave like this, I'm sorry, but no matter what your rank is, no matter how long you've been playing, TO ME, in PVE (what we're currently doing!)... you're pretty awful.

Therefore I don't give a **** about your title. SHOW ME YOUR SKILL instead of bragging about it. It's your current performance that matters the most, IMHO.

Same applies to PvP... I'm not very good at it. But when I do it, I try. I give my best, but I make mistakes. I'd need more practice, let's face it. But I'm not about to blame the others when I'm at fault though, it's just common sense.

EDIT: The worse is that such examples pretty much sums up my encounter with PvPers. But then again, ask me for PvEers example of behaving the same and I'll have a ton too. I think average players in both parties simply - in GW in general - lack common sense.

This animosity does not exist nearly as much in other games who have PvE and PvP as in GW.

PvP was expected to become the endgame, and ANet zealously tried to convert PvE players to become PvPers.

However, they did not.


Most new "content" was given to PvE, skill balances were dictated by PvP. This increased a rift that not necessarily has to exist at all.

Some ANet people once said the players created it, that ANet was meant to be a game for everyone.
Sure, but I blame their game design for nurturing seeping animosity!

That the game works or worked at all is/was the great basic idea behind it, all their other design decisions show that they have no clue why veteran players started playing and loving GW.
Nowadays they manage to piss off most of their veterans, PvP and PvE players alike.

Two opposing sides will always hate each other... even if it's something trivial they disagree about.

Personally I hate PvP with a fiery passion, I've gotten nothing but grief from it... PvP drama ruins guilds, PvP kidnaps my friends, and PvPers in general just tick me off... but I don't really care, if you like PvP go ahead and play it, just stay out of my face and I'll stay out of yours.

Yes, but if ANET had properly anticipated their target audience's desires and built the game appropriately, there wouldn't BE two opposing sides.

Some people think there is only one correct way to play the game. If you don't play the game like they do, then you are considered a [insert invective here]. People need to realize that different people play the game for different reasons, and that each population has approximately normal distribution in terms of skill and personality.

And I thought this was going to be a rationale, friendly discussion until you decided to insult every PvE'r out there. It certainly doesn't help the image most of us PvE'rs have of PvP. I've done a bit of PvP, with varying amounts of success (HA and GvG). I enjoyed the different play style, but I wouldn't consider one form of playing harder than the other. I've also come to appreciate that most of the better PvP players are nice and friendly folks. It's the ones who think they're great (but aren't) who are the arrogant asshats.

I am PvE, and i enjoyed what PvP did with game.

Without PvP i would still be running warriors as tank and not damage dealers. And dont get me started about much more interesting (but less obvious) strategies.

PvP slowed item and skill powercreep and allowed me to enjoy tackics based game. It gave us low level cap. It gave us armor and weapons that we use because they look cool not because we have to. It gaves us assuarance that retarted imba stuff would be eradicated asap.

Well, that was 2 years ago.

I dont give crap what PvPers think about PvE, but its PvP mode that made GWs what it was even in PvE.

People fear what they do not understand.

There is a rift because pvp is not part of the game world. In all other MMORPG pvp is part of the game world.

In GW there is only 2 pvp that are/were part of the world : HoH when it gave the divine favor and AvA. Now there is only AvA. And you can see that there is less inimity in AvA than in any other pvp.

GW pvp is designed like a sport not a war system. You don't pvp because you need (like in a war) but because you want. Or most pve'rs are just peasant (they farm aren't they?) they want a quiet piece of land to harvest from. It is not about skills. Fighting a human is always harder than an AI... except when the AI is set up by a human better than you (see heroes battle or legend). But skill is not the point. The point is that the two world don't share thing in common.

That why all skill in the game must be usable in pvp, because NPC and PC should not be different in front of the game. And, WE ARE ALL PLAYING THE SAME GAME so two set of skill is just meaningless. This will mean that there will be two game, this would be the end of the initial GW. There should be no pvp character that allow people to ignore just a whole aspect of a game.

Why in most game pvp end pve do collaborate. I give an example : you want to do the caravan quest but you know that among the ennemy their is human player wanting to raid the caravan they you will ask pvp'er to come with you.

GW created a rift between the 2 world that lead to clash.

Game that are pure pvp (CS for one) don't have pve side of the game. Why? because gold and xp farming are not what they are looking for. They are looking to imporve they xp not the one of their character (well I begin to thing that xp for character is stupid anyway but that because I am old). Therefore I am not sure such player want a MMORPG. All the RPG aspect is not for them. They are not in character, they are are the character. I mean for them there is no character and player separation, there is only the player. The character is inexistant.

All the RPG aspect is about meking a difference between the xp of the player and the xp of the character. That why having pvp with character of different level, though unfair for people with same skill level, is fundamental to RPG. Otherwise it is not possible to play a good warrior when you are actually a weak warrior (or, for most of us, not a warrior at all).

But why it all failed? because GW end up not being a RPG at all. It became just a puzzled game. But with 2 kind of puzzle, a bit like in chess :
- you can play chess against an oponnent (pvp)
- you can take pre-set problem and try to solve them (pve)

That are nothing to do with RPG. Anet have mix experience point that is something that tell that your ability in game is not link to your personnal skill with an arena battle that just don't need xp but personnal skill? That is the root of the problem.

To sum up :
- Anet misunderstood what a RPG is
- We need a world with pvp/pve related to each other not segregated from each other.
- no differences between pve and pvp.
- if we want a personal skill game, the suppress the xp altogether.

There is no PvP vs PvE.
There is a 'Dumb people that favor a side vs dumb people that favor the other".

They are different, you cannot compare them. It's like saying Hot Chocolate vs Coffee. It's all about taste.

I find this to be quite insulting, it is a pity you did not start it by saying IMHO or some such.

How in the hell did you get insulted over that?

I agree. PvP is more an instant gratification type of format, whereas PvE is more of a slow methodical style of play. Anyone who thinks that they are better than someone else based on anything in a game needs to rethink their perception of reality.

Thank you all. so far this thread has remained mostly civilized for 30+ posts. I Do understand that there is a rift and 2 different "flavors" as MithranArkanere has said. But is it possible, by player interactions/interventions in and out of the game to become more of a caffe' mocca with marshmallows? I am not saying here that the game needs to be recreated or to create a different game, I am however looking for what we can do as players to bridge the gap.

I think you summed it up nicely.

The latest dev update is probably going to increase the gap, read giving skills different effects in PvE.
I hope they design fewer but better skills that are meaningful in either mode, without the constant need of heavy rebalancing over and over in GW2.

I also wonder if they find a way to integrate both kinds of gameplay into the game without pissing off the one or the other side.

Quoted for emphasis.


Now, I won't say that PvE doesn't take some skill, but for the most part you can be carried by henchmen through whatever you try to do. If you suck and join a group in any PvP format besides RA, AB, or TA where the other team is an RA group, you will get stomped. Bad players can get by in PvE, so they continue to play it, but fail in PvP so generally don't bother. Of course there are still a great many people in PvP who think they are good when they flash the bambi they got from Sway or whatnot... but they will fall flat on their face when they try to play anything other than a button mashing gimmick, so it's alright.

I like pvp to fight and compete.
and i like pve to chill, explore the world etc


too bad pve farmers here felt they had to unite against pvp and skill balance.(cos utimately they do not want balance) ruining the game for all.

lots of of the angst of pvp players towards pve ...comes cos of that. they see pvers as the guys who are ruining the game. (cos in pvp skill balance is ALL...while in Pve just an excuse to whine about not bein able to use same old farming build)

pve needs to face it, winning a GvG against a team thats better/as good as yours is MUCH harder than vanquishing or anything else in pve (i've done both).

PvE is better than PvP. For example PvE is about 75% of the game and PvE has 3 Continents while PvP has a couple small islands. The majority of titles/items remain in PvE. People should stop saying they are both equal as it is clear that PvE has more "Meat" in game play. I'm not trying to offend anyone or be "That bad guy that dislikes PvP" But in my view PvE is better than PvP.

it is a stupid, stupid argument tbh. if you don't like pvp/pve...don't play it - there's no reason to go around trashing people who do, no matter which "side" anet seems to favor at any given moment. there's plenty of douchebags on both sides.

i'm in a pvp guild (gvg-focused, play in daily tourneys when we can) yet we play pve plenty too. in fact, we all just made new characters and played through factions for kicks. gve is ftw.