PvP vs. PVE

yes, it does -require- a simpler mentality
require = beat it, not beat efficiently without dying and a very fast time, etc

very true
but alas, efficiency is not -required- to beat top-end pvp
only to farm it

the point is:
in pvp, u have to play better than ur opponents, which is a challenge
in pve, u have to play better than the ai, which is quite easy
the challenge in pve that makes -great- pve'rs, comes in efficiency in being able to beat it
but like i said, it is not -required- to beat pve

if it takes u 2 months to become excellent at solo farming or running droks
then ur pretty bad at pve

i never said they had to be new to pve
jus new to the deep...

my point is that ur first experence in a specific place for pve will be a challenge
(especially without research/prep)
-even- for experienced pve'rs
(example: even high-end pve'rs found doa to be difficult when it was first released....granted, its much different now than it was then)

yay for readin comprehension
i said taking a -pve'r- into pvp
they can have ra experience (ta/ha perhaps too)
but it needs to be their first gvg experience
(since in ur example, it was the pvp'rs first deep experience)
and how many pvpr's was it again? more than 1 i assume
so lets say the gvg needs to have 4 or 5 pve'rs that r gvg'n for the first time? yesh?

i dun need evidence...
its pretty common sense

Except... those things aren't challenging.

I am mainly a PvE player myself but I have done a decent amount of GvG. The main reason why PvP players consider themselves better than PvE players is because of this.
The game never changes in PvE, whereas in PvP every single match is different.

From this, you can conclude PvE is easier than PvP because you can prepare for it. But what I would like to point out is this. PvE can be hard if you have no prior knowledge to what the heck you are fighting/doing. As an example the first groups to do "The Deep" had no freaking idea how to get past the first groups and were essentially stuck, you could say these are comparable to losses in PvP. But it doesn't change.

PvP is harder than PvE only after you have learned the area. I guarentee you if you put the best PvP team in lets say DoA hard mode and non of them had no prior knowledge to the area or had access to wiki or anything, they would fall flat on their asses for a couple of runs.

The problem is that PvP players don't recognize this, and a lot are very elitist, and a lot of PvE players are new to the game or choose to be more relaxed and play less. And it used to be that skill updates would affect either party at the same time, even if a skill was only broken in one or the other. Anet used to only care about PvP for the first year or so, until Sorrows Furnace about. Then it started to focus more on PvE until about nightfall. Now its a lot more balanced and care and consideration are taken to both.

what if they know about ursan? =O

This thread has gone way past its usefulness...

Mastering PvE involves your speedyness to type /help in chat then clicking a few wiki links. Tanking, solo farming, and running Droks is PvEAI; Player Versus Exploitable Artificial Intelligence.

Actually, no you don't. If someone is abusing Vent, in the middle of a game ofcourse, then they shouldn't be tolerated and kicked.
Unless you're not speaking about GvG, and talking about HA when you've got gimmick PuGs, you're right. Only because all those people consist of is c-spacing, unless they're below Rank 3. Which is understandable unranked.

But look at all of the high ranked PuG's. Rank 9 for Sway? Lol.

I remember a GvG against a team like that, except I think they were all newbies. A couple of Flashing Blades 'Sins for offense and a Burning Arrow Ranger without D-Shot and running Epidemic.
Aswell as a Wammo with Healing Breeze. Our Monk DC'd and we decided to gank their lord, it was good fun.

I agree.

@Shinjibukai -- Some PvP'ers trip up on their arses while trying to get used to a new build sometimes.
And don't forget that the vast majority of them migrated from PvE to PvP, more specifically, atleast 90% of the 2005 players.

The fact that PvP players can't complete UW faster than PvE players in an obscure player-run event doesn't change the fact that perhaps the PvP players would've done a better job of clearing the Underworld, id est, PvP players might've died less because of bad monking or whatever other possible condition, because let's face it, PvE-only Monk players are terrible.

Skill is defined, in most cases, by experience. People can still play things over and over and improve at different rates, mind. That's why we don't have a game full of gold-trimmed players.

From what you said there, I can tell that you're a total carebear. If you weren't, you'd know that PvP players ARE in fact, friendly people. The simple reason for the "attitude" they give to PvE players, is that PvE players come to Heroes' Ascent expecting to be spoonfed by higher ranked players. Any idiot could go to PvE, pick up a talentless scrub by spamming "LFG" in !All chat, go in, and lose.

It's funnier when they aren't level 20. I remember a team with a level 9 ranger.

PvErs are the players that arn't R11.

4) Within 6 months after release PvP was completly separated from PvE. They introduced PvP characters and Balthasar factions. So no need to enter PvE at all. They kept the idiotic dependency of favor on PvP. So PvE access to PvE areas, were controlled by PvP players. It took them 2 years to change that!

good luck finding any PvP players in the top 100 who haven't done DoA/don't know anything about it...anyone not in the top 100 doesn't really matter all that much. Most PvPers (the ones you'd call PvPers, who are supa hardcore) do PvE, play in PvE chars with tormented shields and elemental swords and 15k armor, etc.

Divine (holymasamune) is a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals for instance, and he is one of the better players in dR, the guild that won first in the last AT.

Divine is a particularly strong PvEr, though.

Almost every single person in a top 100 guild is a particularly strong PvEr, because when the game came out you were forced to PvE to PvP for about half a year, and its a nice (if easy) diversion as well.

That was my point.

This is a point that a lot of players seem to miss. The number of players that only play PvP is pretty low, most of the PvP community plays PvE as well. Just about every vocal PvP player on guru plays PvE.

You needed PvE characters to be competitive in PvP. For this reason, every major PvP player was also a PvE player. It wasn't until Nightfall that this was no longer necessary.

Definitely, everyone in the top 100 plays PvE, but I find it hard to believe that the majority have GWAMM.

Pretty sure myself and three other guys (whom you would refer to as 'PvP players') four manned the entirety of ToPK the day it became a PvE zone, on our first run through. Meanwhile 'PvE players' were posting QQ threads about how it was ridiculously hard even in 8 man groups.

We used two GvG boon prots (in an area with ridiculous amounts of enchant hate), an SS Necro with four skills on his bar, and a griffon farming Warrior bar. Shortly after this we were regularly farming the area (the Shield, Sword and Hammer were all considered pretty good in PvP at the time) with members of last pride, getting better completion times than anyone else.

PvE teaches you how to adapt your skill bars to particular situations. PvP teaches you how to adapt to any situation with an optimal response, regardless of your skill bar (though it helps).

As has been pointed out many times already, most PvPers these days are people who became bored of the lack of challenge in PvE and moved on. Most still do PvE on the side, and are good at it when they do - though actual player skill means less and less with the introduction of powerful PvE skills like Ursan/SY etc.

As Avarre pointed out, pretty much anyone that took PvP seriously ran a PvE character until Nightfall was released. Sure, they added balthazar faction, but it wasn't enough. it was hopelessly slow for unlocking when introduced, and there were more critical problems. PvP characters had only one armour set and two weapon sets. A PvE character should have as many as they could fit in their inventory.

So, again, anyone that took PvP seriously ran at least one PvE character (for the position they played best) for the equipment advantages. So, PvP players have been playing PvE for just as long as PvE players - but doing not only all the high end PvE, but also the more challenging PvP. Those players are better players, from sheer experience.

and there in is the reason for all the pvp/pve hate we have it never used to be like that all the old pvpers worked for every thing they are and we never had all this hate then anet gave them the unlock packs and the whole world went to shit

Actually it used to be considerably worse.

I understand that; having experience in 2 things... you have more exp. than someone with exp. in 1 thing only. I fully understand that.

But does it mean that PvPers should be so arrogant regarding their status? Because yes, calling PvEers "scrubs" and such IMHO is arrogant - the thing is that it's not every PvPer who does it. However, the ones who do give the rest a ****ing bad name throughout the PvP community. What's worse is, as I was saying in a previous post, that's the GENERAL comment I see coming from PvPers.

They think we suck. That they're the best and the rest doesn't matter, we're all "scrubs".

If it's not arrogance, I dunno WTF is it. And don't go telling me it's the truth and not an insult, I've heard it enough.

Note that when I say the general PvP community, I mean your average player. He probably never made the top100, held halls a couple times and LOVES to brag about what he did. But there ARE good PvPers out there with a good attitude, I've met some myself... too bad your average players give the community a bad name.

I think the biggest division betwen PvP and PvE players is really between casual PvE players and the hard core PvP people.

As has been stated most of the higher ups in PvP have done tonnes on PvE, but how many PvE players have put in 5000+ hours and have NEVER done PvP. The fact is most of the Hard Core PvE people agree with the simple fact that PvP requires a much more dynamic style of play, its not repeative or easy in the sense that you need to face the unexpected in almost every match.

This is one of the most exciting parts of ANY game, playing it through for the first time and learning how to be much better the second time around. Once a PvE player has completed 3+ runs through the game chances are they know all that needs to be known to efficiently build a skill bar to complete any portion of the PvE game. From that point on they are either tweeking the build to help others play or are working towards a title or farming gold for items. When an update comes along that alters or nerfs a farming build or a build they always run to complete a certain mission as fast as possible, or as easy as possible they get angry and blame PvP.

I am a PvE player, so I can only speculate on why some PvP players hate PvE players. After becoming good at PvP they are likely so used to having a flexible skill bar and changing it up often they can't understand why a player would WANT to use the exact same 8 skills all the time. So skill nerfs/buffs are only a positive to them and they have little sympathy for those that think otherwise.


Personally I have little care wheather or not a PvP player conciders himself "better" than I at GW. I play to have fun, fun for me is relaxed adventuring through the beatiful environments of GW.

idk scrub means someone who complains about stuff being cheap, ie: people in RA complaining about people moving because they didn't take an IMS/snare, not really someone who sucks, so thats probably improper usage of the word.

ideally, the thing you have to understand why the PvP (who also PvE) community hates the PvE (who don't PvP except for low tier stuff like RA/AB who no one gives a crap about) community is probably thusly these three reasons:

a) Complain about buffs/nerfs WAY TOO MUCH and OVER DO IT. Remember the Splinter Weapon nerf? Tonsss of people were saying they were going to delete their Ranger (because apparently rangers are only good with Splinter Weapon yeah ok). The nerf barely lowered the DPS. Remember Soul Reaping? It's still the best attribute in the game, and the best e-management. Remember every Paragon nerf? Still the most overpowered class.

b) They always say WHY CAN'T PVPERS LEARN TO ADAPT, and then bitch and moan when they have to change their bars, when most PvPers are proficient in 1-4 classes, and run a multitude of bars in a multitude of areas. For example, I am proficient in Coward Warrior, Hammer Warriors, Tree, in RA WoD Curses, Shock Axe, and I dabble in Paragon. That's ~9 builds, compared to your PvE person's 1-2, per character.

c) this one always bugs me, but when they talk about PvP and have no clue about it, especially when they say the HOLY GRAIL of all lines, "heh...why don't you counter it, here's a list of counters [insert a bunch of shitty counters here that no one would ever take because if you don't encounter what it is countering you are basically a 7 skill person.]. If I had 5$ for every time I've had to say that something having a counter wasn't balanced I would be a rich man.

The thing you have to understand is a lot of these players seem to be very greedy in some way. They want everything for themselves, including skill balances. Of course, when they get skill balances, they complain about nerfs on their shit. Which is why with the sep. of PvP/PvE skills, it is most likely Anet is going to make everything go up to Ursan level and never nerf a single thing.

*NOTE: if you think I mean every PvE person in this post you are dumb ty. i obviously mean the ignorant hardcore PvE community who thinks that they've had to suffer 3 years of getting bent over and raped because of PvPers.

EDIT:
Also a lot of PvEers do suck in PvP but that is ok we all sucked at some point, but a lot of them can't take "bad words" or something. Turn off chat channels, but leave team on so you can see calls, and go at it. Set yourself to offline. Not that hard. You just need to learn how to position yourself, use your skills properly, work as a team, kite, pre-kite, weapon swap, etc. Not all at once, but over time.

DESPITE DARK NINJAING ME, I'M POSTING ANYWAYS.

I'll try to toss out some ideas. Note that these are not my personal views, but what I've seen brought up. If you're on Guru, you'll have seen these come up before - not from the community as a whole, but there's always a few cases that give a bad name to everyone else.

1) Limited game view. Players that only play one area tend to have a poor idea of how the entire game functions as a whole, and therefore their comments about things like balance are sometimes terrible.

2) Lack of skill. PvE doesn't challenge you. It doesn't require skill, and doesn't require the player to develop beyond a point. When PvE players believe tanking is good and elementalists are the best DPS, respect tends to dwindle.

3) Arrogance. PvE players are arrogant. They are just as arrogant as PvP players. While this may not seem to be the case, the number of PvE players who talk as if they matter, when the most they have accomplished is maybe clearing FoW, is astounding. For examples of this, see DarkNecrid's post above.

4) Cluelessness. PvE-only players talking about PvP. Or game mechanics. While many PvE players have a solid grasp on mechanics, you can barely function in PvP without those ideas - and hence the whole PvP community is going to have those basic ideas, also considered 'having a clue'. The PvE players who, thanks to PvE design, can blunder through the game without knowing anything give a very bad name, especially when they insist they are right.

5) Complaining. PvP complaints largely focus around balance. Balance is as important to the survival of PvP as it is to a man on a rope above a sea of lava. PvE playerbase complaints are often about incredibly trivial things, sometimes stemming from their own incapability, and result in a collective facepalm from more experienced PvE players (a large part of which make up the PvP community). Examples of this, again, can be found in the list in DarkNecrid's post.

6) Assimilation. Guild Wars, competitive online game, skill over time. Fast forward, ANet cuts support for the GWWCs, and adds Ursan to appease grind over skill mainstreamers. GW has essentially abandoned it's initial focus and the playerbase in favor of generic PvE - and the exodus of most of the old PvP community is a result.

There's more, but I think that's enough to give an idea. If anyone is feeling particularly sad about this, I can do the other side as well. Then we can have a nice library of issues and instead of actually wasting space with threads people can just post 'ANTI-PVE ARGUMENT 2' and everyone will know immediately what the next 200 posts are going to involve.

That's an odd angle. I would certainly like to see you go into GvG and get some "instant gratification". Unless by that you mean getting stomped into the 3000s before being able to win any matches.


Other than that... this thread is new an original. Will read again, A++

I think "ignorant" is the term your looking for. At least thats my experience with some hardcore PvE-ers.

If I see a stance warrior in PvP, I usually drop some advice and say, "You know stances don't do damage" or "Defy Pain doesn't kill anyone". They usually respond with something like "Stop insulting my build, it owns". And you don't know how many times people complain about kiting in All chat with comments like "stupid runner" or "running is for noobs". Its ignorance that makes PvE-ers look bad to PvP-ers.

What can I say? I am a pro sin (sin OWNSSS). I like to overextend deep into the enemy base by myself and say I'm battle lioning because I'm so pro.

It's cool though, you took a way more explained approach, with more points, whereas I compacted similar points into 3 because I am lazy at the moment.

/agree

wrong!


After playing in many RA matches, I can safely say Defy Pain kills the user 9 times out of 10.

I agree to most of those, but I'm still dead sure that PvE requires skill if you want to do it effectively. You don't want to head into Destruction's Depths with fire nukers, no. You want armor-ignoring damage and snares (and conditions... gawd I hate those melee'ers). Take a few groups and even with the same team setup, some will still fail and find it hard. It's just... not the same type of skill as in PvP, I guess. If you know your areas, if you prepare in consequence, it becomes easy as hell. I remember the first time I went into Blood Washes Blood HM,

About skill balances, I've seen both parties not willing to change their bars and whine because of updates. Sure some nerfs sucked (WY!, pet corpses, and I'm still personally sour about Angorodon's Gaze) but so far I've always found replacements. Other nerfs that were needed for PvP didn't affect me OR affected me only a little (Splinter Weapon is still effective!).

And about arrogance, I see it more in PvP players though, probably because I don't PUG as much as I used to. I still PUG, I still meet arrogant players and everytime it bothers me, I dunno why. But what I can't stand are the PvP players who think it's okay to be jerks to the PvE PUGs they're with, thinking they're doing a better job than them only because they have a higher hero rank... while actually they're wiping the whole team or being less than effective. I've had my share of stories with those. But everyone who teams up with me regularly knows that I'm far from being lucky with groups in general, thus why I'd rather stick with my friends and alliance members.

I'm not about to go in other teams and saying that I do a better job than them... unless you're asking for it.

Oh and I agree about the QQing PvEers giving a bad name to the rest. Maybe we do generalize too much... and I'm no exception sometimes.

I was trying to find a point to disagree with, but your logic/truth slapped me in the face.

Seriously though, do the other side aswell. It would be nice to see.

PvPers rarely complain about not changing their bars. They want to win, so they do. PvPers complain about bad nerfs/overdone nerfs, usually (see: Ether Renewal, Grenth's Aura...). PvErs generally complain about changing their bars because now something they can do fast (a mission, farming) they have to do JUST A BIT slower. Rather than looking to win, a ton of PvErs look for speed with the lowest amount of skill needed to do so. (again, talking hardcore people here)

Knowledge and skill are two different things!

I think that is part of the problem with the LIST BAD COUNTERS thing with PvErs who talk about PvP like they know what they are talking about.

In PvE if there's MASS PARAGONS [vocal minority] can be taken because PvE is easy enough that having 1 7 skill bar guy sometimesisn't going to hurt you much, and it'll be pretty effective and you know it will be.

In PvP there is no guarantee you will encounter a Paragon making [vocal minority] bad since in PvP having 1 7 skill bar guy is gimping your entire team compared to the enemy, and losing that 1 skill is enough to cost you the game (see: well done diversions)

edit:
Avarre I'm going to predict the next 100 posts before you post the PvP thing (I am psychic)

-you post PvP thing
-random hardcore PvErs all /agree but completely ignore your PvE list or say you're elitist for it
-people say I'm elitist too
-thread locked

WHAT DO I WIN??? I SURE HOPE ITS SOME ZAISHEN KEYS

I think you forgot one reason:

most PvErs like their build. In fact, they love it unconditionally because it allows them to win and usually get place in party. Maybe they even base thier self-worth on running that build. Whatever that is, it is pretty unhealthy thing.

If something threatens viability if that build even if it is just one skill, they lash out to protect it. Because there is big unknown of what they would have to use instead. Fear that their main will end up unwanted in pugs. Fear that they will start loosing battles. Fear that their FoW armor was thrown out money as people would pass em to pick assassin instead to party slot they used to occupy.

So they do stupid things on forums.

Remeber, this also harms PvE. Big Time. because theese people consider their build best thing ever. Especially if it comes from PvX. So you have hard time coordinating in PuGs because people would at best just ignore your calls for even one skill change. Hardest thing in PvE ever is making heal monk put 9 points in prot and get prot spirit when you are heading to UW.

While understanding of the game is important, it does not necessarily reflect player skill. But you are right, obviously there is a level of skill required to play pve, but anet set the bar relatively low. PvE is mostly about experience and understanding that each 'zone' may have a different kind of 'meta' to deal with. In PvP though, if you play balance and you decide to ladder play, you will have to deal with a lot of potentially different builds but always maintaining the same standard balance build. This is where player skill truly becomes important.

Just like pve has bad players, so does pvp. People who moan about specific builds being nerfed are typically gimmicky players. Mind you there is also the possibility that Anet just made a really bad nerf or buff like they always do.

Ha players are teh bad.


both sides have their idiots unfortunately. Usually when a skill balance occurs, it's these idiots you're hearing from (unless, as I said earlier, an actually terrible update has been made, see dark pact, enchanter conundrum, etc...like anet couldn't actually figure out that these were bad ideas just goes to show their limited understanding of their own game).

anyways, I agree that there is obviously a level of skill that can be achieved in pve, but the bar is set so low that it is not a requirement. Most can get by on experience alone, or if you don't have that, you can simply check the wiki for tips on the area you're about to encounter. PvP obviously requires a higher degree of skills.

example:

take npc's for example, if I am on warrior, I know I can extend an NPC to a point where he will eventually begin running the other way, I could then turn around and bull's strike him (I do this all the time to warriors at the warrior shrine in AB). All NPCs are exploitable because they don't have an actual brain. At times I think people tend to confuse actual player skill with an understanding of how to exploit pve game mechanics. Fire nuking, curse nuking...both examples of exploiting game mechanics. Now go into a GvG and try to bull's Tommy or Langola....gonna be a lot harder.

Avarre is known for owning face.

It's sad tho..many will still argue one side is 'leeter' than the other...when in reality, there aren't any sides..just players with different ways to play GW for the fun they can get out of it.
(Avarre has been spotted in our guild hall dancing his mesmar to piss off Racthoh. Drop me a line Earth, and you can come torment him in 'person'.)

Then these people need to stop playing Online RPGs where things change.

I, uh, don't get it.

QFT. Everytime I see someone whine about how things get changed and they don't want them to, it makes me wonder why the hell they're playing a MMOPRG (well CORPG in GW's case).

yes, there r quite some arrogant ppl in pvp...but also jus as many in pve

now the reason that it -seems- like there is more in pvp is because:

pvp'rs have tough skins
we r hard on each other
i guess u can compare it to like an army style tough-love

if a teamate does sumptin wrong, u yell at em
but when the game is over, hes ur teamate, and ur still friends

and when u play another team,
trash talkin is generally jus part of the whole pvp scene
u dun really mean to seriously hurt em (in most cases...sometimes ppl can be jerks)

now pve'rs just arent used to this kind of behaviour
so they r overly sensitive and take it the wrong way (i.e. very personally)
even if wut ur sayin isnt even sumptin bad

The way I see it there is no such a thing as PvPrs and PvErs. There are two types of players: bad players and good players.

In PvE, bad players can be indentified who always QQ every single skill balance and defend the existence of Ursan. On other hand there are also handful good players who dont mind skill balance and generally dislike Ursan.

In PvP, bad players can be found in majority HA teams who always use gimmick builds to farm fame (IWAY, ritspike, sway, etc). Good players are the people who play balance builds and predominantly play in high end GvG.

It even says so on the damn box, thanks to ESRB: "Game experience may change during online play". (even though that's not *really* what it was originally for, but it proved right in both cases).

sorry thats not called skill. thats called not being dumb.

You just set yourself up...
In Pve, you play versus computer controlled monsters.
In PvP, you play against other players and sometimes computer controlled monsters.

So yes there is a such thing as pvpers and pvers and hybrid players including good ones and bad ones.

Pvpers probably think highly of themselves over pure pvers because they kill real people instead of mindless npcs, so they think they are better than the ones killing mindless beings coz the mindless beings are just computer controlled. Plus, the pver doesnt know any tactics such as kiting or cancel/quater knocks etc etc. that the pvper does that could give the hybrid player an advantage in pve. Im not saying the pver is noob im just saying they are less likely to get the most out of the games mechanics.