PvP vs. PVE - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

10 May 2008 at 14:26 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

I love both PvE and PvP. The problem I have had with PvP was stated earlier in the thread:

I dont take issue with the statement that PvP requires more skill than PvE. It does. PvE on the other hand requires a bit more experience with PvE to learn tendencies and the ways to defeat an area as quickly as possible (assuming no UB and consumables), as well as some knowledge of builds more effective in certain areas etc.

What I do take issue with is try and go into any PvP setting and announce yourself as still learning PvP. Heck, dont even announce it. They'll figure that out soon enough. Take stock of what they then say. Do the same in a PvE setting and see what happens.

You'll notice the difference in attitude. Its even present here in this thread.

It's called arrogance, that's what it is. It's the issue I have with a good couple PVPers... arrogance. And yes, it's present in this thread. This way to always turn stuff against the other person: "it's your fault if you feel insulted; go play Sims instead". I'm sorry, but this is a pretty arrogant thing. No no, it's not the fault of the guy who insulted, but the other's fault that he did. Mmkay.

Go ahead and tell you you're new at PVP. "lol pve scrub". But no, it's my fault for feeling arrogance coming from that guy.

But in all honesty, I've seen the same thing happen with PVEers.

The difference is that there is a double standard, from what I see. If you're a PvEer and you get trashed talked by a PvPer, it means you suck. If you're a PvEer trash talking PvPers, you still suck.

Then again I'm talking about the general community, and not everyone. But there's a load of arrogance... on both sides.

And I like neither. Doubt I'm the only one on this forum.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

10 May 2008 at 14:31 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

A matter of opinion. I can't speak for others who play this game, but my playing PvE exclusively does not make me an "incomplete player". I am good at the style I choose to play - it doesn't automatically mean I'd suck at playing another. I lack experience at PvP, not "skill".

A player with experience in all areas of the game is going to have a lot more experience. This experience is going to translate into skill. Specifically, with regards to tactical play, game sense, and reactiveness, PvP is going to add a lot of that skill, simply because PvE doesn't punish mistakes as heavily and hence doesn't force as much improvement. You haven't played PvP by your own admission, so how can you make statements of any sort regarding the nature of PvP?

I learned more about gameplay in my first month of GvG than I did in my first year of PvE. When the principle of the game is to punish enemy mistakes, you have to learn not to do anything exploitable.

Quote:

No, I'm saying that without assessing the abilities of every PvE player out there, your statement that only PvP players are skilled is based on arrogance, not fact. I just find it odd that some PvP players feel the need to belittle the playing abilities of everyone who chooses to play PvE - not because we suck at PvP, but because we prefer a different play style.

You made the bolded up. The line you were replying to stated that the best PvP players were most skilled than the best PvE players, not that PvE players have no skill.

The fact that the best PvP players have more skill than everyone else, PvE or PvP, isn't really disputable. Again, if you have played extensively in all areas, this would be apparent.

Quote:

The mindless antics of PvE mobs is compensated for by their overpowered skills and sheer numbers.

Speaking from experience at both group/farm PvE and top 50 GvG, no it is not.

Monk In The Box

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

Deutschland und in mein zimmer

[한국어]

Mo/Me

10 May 2008 at 15:03 - 83

PvE is patience and skill.
PvP is feel.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

10 May 2008 at 15:19 - 84

PvE: The beauty and learning areas. (STILL my favorite, for I am one for the looks and exploring.)
PvP: The next level into the game......
AFTER you have learned the skills, weapons, armors, guild structures...ect.
PvP players ARE the most experienced players in the game...they have already completed the first part (PvE) to gain the knowledge they needed to go higher in the game.
Don't get me wrong, but all I'm saying is.....PvP players are better at most aspects of the game. (Because they have already completed step 1: PvE)
And I love having a few of them come into the guild hall and chat in between matches, and do some 'hard Core' PvE with me.
*hugs-n-cookies*

Res Ipsi

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Canada

Angel Sharks [As]

Me/

10 May 2008 at 15:32 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You haven't played PvP by your own admission, so how can you make statements of any sort regarding the nature of PvP?

Actually, that's not quite true. I did quite a bit (HA and GvG) for a time, but found those environments more stale than PvE. The flexibility in builds, and the variety I was looking for just wasn't there. As to PvP experience generalizing to better PvE skill; basic skills like kiting, prioritizing targets, anticipating spikes, using the terrain, weapon swapping - these can be learned in both PvE and PvP; albiet the learning curve in PvP is much steeper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You made the bolded up. The line you were replying to stated that the best PvP players were most skilled than the best PvE players, not that PvE players have no skill.

I shouldn't have quoted your specific comment to make my point - but the message has been quite explicitly stated in other posts. It's the general "PvE players suxxors" that I (and many other PvE'rs) take exception to.

Stockholm

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Censored

R/

10 May 2008 at 15:37 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

There is allways someone better than you outthere
Why do you not understand this?

Accept it and move on

There fixed it for you.

Tamuril elansar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

N/

10 May 2008 at 15:56 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Imperial

I've seen top PvP players fail at Urgoz Warren Elite Mission.(this is going the old way not with ursan.) So how can they be better than other players?

because ''top pve players'' have done urgoz warren 650million times while top pvp players 1/2 times.

rohara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Rt/

10 May 2008 at 17:48 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Imperial

I've seen top PvP players fail at Urgoz Warren Elite Mission.(this is going the old way not with ursan.) So how can they be better than other players?

my old far-from-top-play pvp guild blew through urgoz faster than any pug i've ever been in. that was 3 of us with heroes, btw, and before ursan even existed. just because one pvp player failed doesn't mean they all fail at pve. exaggerate much?

besides, urgoz is the type of place where simply going in with a bad build or not knowing where the popups are = fail.

this whole thread is full of exaggerations and stereotypes.

for example...pvp players are not all mean, arrogant, etc. top gvg players are usually happy to come guest for your guild and give advice, or will answer questions if you pm them. if you you meet them with resistance, well then...you're probably not worth their time and you won't see them again. don't ask for help if you really don't want it - you'll never get better if you don't recognize your errors and correct them. everybody makes mistakes, and criticism is part of the learning process.

they are the most skilled players in the game and do have a little room to pat themselves on the back. if you've never truly played a game competitively, you just wouldn't understand.

razuel

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2006

10 May 2008 at 18:03 - 89

Let me rephrase the statement. The majority of PvPers I run into are mean and not willing to help teach.

I have experience in PvP in other games, but this game is unique in that it's very team-based unlike D2 for example. It's hard to get into without help.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

10 May 2008 at 18:10 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Imperial

I've seen top PvP players fail at Urgoz Warren Elite Mission.(this is going the old way not with ursan.) So how can they be better than other players?

I'd bet the rest of their PvE orientated team failed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I see no proof of them being the best. Since you have never witnessed every single pve monk I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. I could spout names too.

The ones who haven't been witnessed are obviously not good enough to get on observe. End of discussion.

Quote:

Master Rhys Mason is the greatest monk of all time, better than any pvp monk.

Please prove that wrong.

Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is he? (i think that's proof enough, nobodies are nobodies)

Musei Karasu

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Mo/

10 May 2008 at 18:24 - 91

Debating the difference between PvE and PvP is like debating the difference between writing a research paper and being in front line combat here. Writing a research paper requires the effort to research your subject matter, just like in PvE you research the enemies you'll be against, and you will know exactly how they react. Being in a combat zone is different, you try and gather what information you can, but when it comes down to it, you're fighting against someone with no rules in play.

PvE requires the skills to research your enemy, so that you don't encounter an enemy that you don't have a way to combat. PvP requires you to move quickly and respond on the spot, something everyone here is calling "skill". I play monk in both PvE and PvP. Playing the infuse monk in a GvG match requires every scrap of my attention and reaction. It requires me to focus every last bit of myself to the match. I can miss an infuse just because the phone rings or someone in my house calls my name. PvE I can hold a conversation and monk at the same time, but only because I equip my heroes and teammates with the correct skills to combat the enemies I know will be there.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 May 2008 at 18:25 - 92

This is a discussion about differences between PvE and PvP, not a "why I hate people who play PvE/PvP". Continual trolling will not be tolerated.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

10 May 2008 at 18:37 - 93

PVE doesn't stand for casual or low level entertainment or even rank of an individual. PVE stands for PLAYER VS ENVIRONMENT. After that there are many levels of players and each individuals players level of entertainment, fun, challenge even competitiveness in their rank in that community. There are no such things as scrubs or idiots except to those that actually are one themselves and gives those kinds of titles to others because of their inferority complexes. They are the more inferior type than the normal average joe that plays these types of games for FUN and ENTERTAINMENT foist and foremost.

Sorry hardcore players but you do not rule the world here (notice the changes we are getting lately?)

. You need to go back to gradeschool and learn how to play well with others, not boss them around or tell them they are idiots and scrubs because they don't play like you do.

Nothing on the box advertised anyone had to be perfect or even TRY to obtain perfection or experience or be as good as the next person. Most of the hardcore players made up those rules themselves trying to take over the sandbox just like back in gradeschool. I've also run into a lot of those types within the game who talked about how great and good they were and everyone can talk a "I'm better than you" story, but, doesn't always mean it's true and I've seen it in action to not be true in PUGS and PVP both. A lot of people THINK they are good, but, haha 99% of them are just average like the rest of us.

Alex Morningstar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Team Asshat [Hat] leader - [GR] Alliance

Mo/

10 May 2008 at 18:45 - 94

PvP doesn't take skill, it takes cookie cutter builds that their pugs can play because no one plays anymore. Skill left the equation around the same time WM/EviL/etc left. Sure, some people have skill, but also some people ebay their rank.

PvE is the same. Cookie cutter it and you'll win.

For as different as the two are, some things are the exact same.

Both sides have morons. Both sides have a debatable level of skill supposedly involved. Both any retard with more than 1 hand can play.

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

10 May 2008 at 18:47 - 95

Quote:

PvP doesn't take skill, it takes cookie cutter builds that their pugs can play because no one plays anymore. Skill left the equation around the same time WM/EviL/etc left. Sure, some people have skill, but also some people ebay their rank.

Why aren't you in top 100 then with your wiki build?

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

10 May 2008 at 19:11 - 96

Quote:

The flexibility in builds, and the variety I was looking for just wasn't there.

I think this says it best when defining the difference between PVE and PVP. In several types of the socalled elite PVP the flexibility in builds and variety just isn't there. You can see it in most of the PVP crowds post that they want the holy trinity balanced build groups in GvG/HOH play. Lord knows what the HA players want that single player an his heroes mess. lol Now, AB and RA and FA tend to allow variety and flexibility (they really have no choice as two of the three are random anyways), but, the hardcore PVP crowd does not accept AB, Ra or FA as a PVP class which is quite funny since all 3 are player vs players.

Heck even in your GvG matches you have PVE play as those are NPC's you are killing for the final victory aren't they? LORD anyone?

I find it funny that winning a high end GvG PVP match of what is socalled the highest standard of PVP involves killing an AI NPC LORD....now i don't know of another PVP game online that i've played that has that kind of silliness for elite PVP victory. There shouldn't be any Lords or NPC's at all it should be to the last man or the most kills in a number of minutes or the team that caps the most flags. GvG PVP is really a laughable joke when victory comes from killing an AI NPC LORD.

maraxusofk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

San Francisco, UC Berkeley

International District [id多], In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP], LOL at [eF]

W/

10 May 2008 at 20:16 - 97

wish people would really stop saying ha takes pvp skill. the only real form of pvp is gvg.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

10 May 2008 at 21:30 - 98

I hope Anet is happy. They made this happen and now are trying to do damage control with recent terrible updates. Just watch.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

10 May 2008 at 21:38 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Skill is about how you play, not where you play. The people who have just come into online gaming and think that Guild Wars is the best PVP ever in any game have a long way to go.

Exactly.

People playing IWAY and Vimway all day every day back when it worked and getting R9+ were not skillied.

I reckon 75% of R9+ players got there with skill less grind builds.

Lots of stuff in PVE (without Ursan mind you) is far more challenging and requires more skill then (some) PVP does.

HuntMaster Avatar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

Around

Pillar's of Earth [ROCK]

W/

10 May 2008 at 22:01 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~ Dan ~

I'd bet the rest of their PvE orientated team failed it.

The ones who haven't been witnessed are obviously not good enough to get on observe. End of discussion.

Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is he? (i think that's proof enough, nobodies are nobodies)

Well then I guess the people that have been meantioned fall under that catagory as well because I'v never heard nor seen them. So nobodies are nobodies. Thats proof enough they are not the best as you said.

And Rhys has never been defeated in pvp nor has his team ever lost.

His teammates also have never died while he was healing in pve. When you figure out why you havnt seen him you will figure out why I used him as an exsample.

No one is the best. There is always someone better.

enter_the_zone

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2007

R/

10 May 2008 at 22:08 - 101

To me, it seems that some PVP players take it VERY, VERY seriously. I can understand this in really high end stuff like top 100 GVG and MAT's, but in HA? Really? Getting so mad that you must be risking an aneurysm, over a game, is just plain stupid. Worse, over a single match, in a game where deaths don't matter and you'll be in another match in 10 minutes. Imagine these people playing a game with persistent death...

These people just ruin PVP for me, I just can't deal with that kind of attitude. Take a chill pill, light a splif, get counseling or anger management, drink more booze, anything really. They should learn not to care so much, it's just a game and if they actually care about winning and losing every match, they really are losers. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. The world can be a biatch, so deal with it already. They should get a life, or buy one on eBay if they have too.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about the pointless ragefests that HA can be. Raging about losing in high end GVG and MAT's is more understandable, since that's an actual loss, not just a waste of 10 minutes.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

10 May 2008 at 22:11 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

but in HA? Really? Getting so mad that you must be risking an aneurysm, over a game, is just plain stupid.

Thats the leading reason why I quit HA. H/H in PVE is far more enjoyable then any aspect of GW that involves playing with other people.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

10 May 2008 at 22:22 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Now look who's being silly. I play hockey. Why would a soccer team be interested in my slap shot?

thats a bad sports analogy...
heres a proper one:

pve = runnin a hockey obstacle course over and over again, tryin to get the best time

pvp = playin a hockey game vs another team, tryin to win

sure, perhaps some nobody can skate from one end of the rink to the other around pylons faster than gretzky can...
but does that really matter?

no matter how good ur slap shot is....if u cant beat the defenders/goalie and win games wit it...

GaladrielMoloch

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

Australia

Oh No Tinkerbell Died

R/

10 May 2008 at 23:19 - 104

The true problem is when people think they are good running builds that work in PvE but any person with a brain in PvP will counter it. For example a 10 second spike is crap or standing in AoE is moronic.

This is why you get huge amounts of animosity between the "PvP elitists" & "PvE scrubs" in such areas as RA and AB (lower ends of PvP). Not being one to generally insult people over their playing ability and meaning it, doing things such as casting fire attunement when backfire is on you and no one else is around, is bloody retarded (I saw someone doing this last night in AB 2-3 times; we lost by roughly 5 points)

There is a degree of expertize that people who play primarily PvE seem to lack on entering PvP, which is fine, as long as they listen. But not bringing a rez sig in RA, running towards a mob in AB, etc is just plain stupid and has nothing to do with your primary play style.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

10 May 2008 at 23:36 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

wish people would really stop saying ha takes pvp skill. the only real form of pvp is gvg.

This is the type of person I was talking about earlier.

Res Ipsi

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Canada

Angel Sharks [As]

Me/

11 May 2008 at 00:45 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

[font=century gothic]thats a bad sports analogy...
heres a proper one:

pve = runnin a hockey obstacle course over and over again, tryin to get the best time

pvp = playin a hockey game vs another team, tryin to win

My analogy was to show that PvE and PvP might as well be two different sports. However, let's use your example for the sake of argument. If the goal of the two aspects of playing (beat a mission vs. beat an opposing team) are different, why are even bothering to compare them?

Edge Martinez

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

NC

DKL

11 May 2008 at 01:28 - 107

I do both, pve/p. I just wish they'd dump the dishonorable combatant bullcrap. Nothing spells revenge like voting off someone you can't best. And nothing is worse than getting dropped and coming back to see you can't compete.

LifesRestorer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

London, England

Mo/

11 May 2008 at 01:54 - 108

guild wars is not an MMO, it is A CORPG
Competitive
Online
Role
Playing
Game

Look at GW: Prophicies. When the game was made, every aspect of play was built up to the grand pinnacle of the game: PvP.
You learnt to play as you went along and once you reached the latter stages of the game and completed your training (ascalon - jungle) you were put up to the final test: The desert. the introduction of pvp. Each mission represented a mission objective in HA.
Elona Reach - Relic Running
Thirsty River - Priest map annihilation
Dunes of Despair - Altar Holding

From the words of Co-founder Mike O'Brien...

Quote:

Guild War was built from the ground up to be a competitive game

Obviously the motives since then have been changed and Guild Wars will never be the Competitive masterpiece that it could have been. They realised that the real money is in the pve community, so that is what they catered towards.

So now, instead of a pve game being made to lead up to pvp game, which was at the time seen as the ultimate stage of the game, the game has been completely split in two. this started at the battle isles, continued through with the change of pve only skills and is now being taken onto even more drastic measures: separate pve/pvp balancing of skills.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

11 May 2008 at 02:07 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

guild wars is not an MMO, it is A CORPG
Competitive
Online
Role
Playing
Game

Look at GW: Prophicies. When the game was made, every aspect of play was built up to the grand pinnacle of the game: PvP.
You learnt to play as you went along and once you reached the latter stages of the game and completed your training (ascalon - jungle) you were put up to the final test: The desert. the introduction of pvp. Each mission represented a mission objective in HA.
Elona Reach - Relic Running
Thirsty River - Priest map annihilation
Dunes of Despair - Altar Holding

From the words of Co-founder Mike O'Brien...

Obviously the motives since then have been changed and Guild Wars will never be the Competitive masterpiece that it could have been. They realised that the real money is in the pve community, so that is what they catered towards.

So now, instead of a pve game being made to lead up to pvp game, which was at the time seen as the ultimate stage of the game, the game has been completely split in two. this started at the battle isles, continued through with the change of pve only skills and is now being taken onto even more drastic measures: separate pve/pvp balancing of skills.

You win the prize. The problem is that PvE has completely taken over. People wonder why there are bitter players.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

11 May 2008 at 03:01 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

No one is the best. There is always someone better.

Even in theory that destroys itself as in the end, you reach the best player. While that player may not be the best for long, as the top of the game shifts, they still are for that period, and are remembered as such.

By the way, if you don't know who the mentioned two monks are (Soul and Tommy), it's not because they're nobodies.

Quote:

To me, it seems that some PVP players take it VERY, VERY seriously. I can understand this in really high end stuff like top 100 GVG and MAT's, but in HA? Really?

Usually when I see this (and I've done it once or twice) is not because of the loss, but because the loss was due to someone making a mistake that is really beneath them. A team with a weak link is going to have problems, and for a player to play their best but still lose because of someone else doing horribly is more irritating than your team being outplayed.

To draw a PvE comparison, it's like having an amazing FoW run while being followed by a group member who magically steals all your drops while dying all the time. Sure, it's just a PvE run and you only lose time, but it's annoying.

Obviously, among players reactions will differ.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

11 May 2008 at 03:08 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

To draw a PvE comparison, it's like having an amazing FoW run while being followed by a group member who magically steals all your drops while dying all the time.

Actually, it's more like having an awesome FoW run and finishing all but 1 quest, and then someone decides to go afk, aggros three mobs, then when he gets back he brings those mobs to the griffons, killing them. You lose, but not because your whole team was bad, just one idiot.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

11 May 2008 at 03:11 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Actually, it's more like having an awesome FoW run and finishing all but 1 quest, and then someone decides to go afk, aggros three mobs, then when he gets back he brings those mobs to the griffons, killing them. You lose, but not because your whole team was bad, just one idiot.

That works too.

While groups that know each other might not make a big deal of it, when you PuG members and they end up wrecking you, there can be problems. Hence why most good groups don't PuG at all if possible; the players they get are unknown values.

RedNova88

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Behind you!

W/

11 May 2008 at 04:02 - 113

People just want to be on the "winning" or the "best" teams. And because PvP requires more skill in some instances people go ahead and assume that PvErs should be denied their right to enjoyment.

It's funny because this reminds me of a rant that went on while I was playing Halo 3, someone mentioned that they had gone through and beaten the whole game on Legendary. Some other person burst out instantly ranting/bragging that he won some Halo 3 online championship and that he was a "god" compared to everyone else. I guess what I'm getting at is that some people just HAVE to feel special, they either do it by winning, or by hurting others in some manner, so that they feel superior. So I suppose when someone rants about how PvP > PvE or vise versa they're just trying to self idolize themselves. You have no argument from me that PvP requires more skill and teamwork, but that doesn't make it better. Better is just an opinion, and opinions should be respected unless hard facts are shown to prove otherwise.

Live and let live, or sooner or later someone will come kick your ass.

maraxusofk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

San Francisco, UC Berkeley

International District [id多], In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP], LOL at [eF]

W/

11 May 2008 at 04:24 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

People just want to be on the "winning" or the "best" teams. And because PvP requires more skill in some instances people go ahead and assume that PvErs should be denied their right to enjoyment.

It's funny because this reminds me of a rant that went on while I was playing Halo 3, someone mentioned that they had gone through and beaten the whole game on Legendary. Some other person burst out instantly ranting/bragging that he won some Halo 3 online championship and that he was a "god" compared to everyone else. I guess what I'm getting at is that some people just HAVE to feel special, they either do it by winning, or by hurting others in some manner, so that they feel superior. So I suppose when someone rants about how PvP > PvE or vise versa they're just trying to self idolize themselves. You have no argument from me that PvP requires more skill and teamwork, but that doesn't make it better. Better is just an opinion, and opinions should be respected unless hard facts are shown to prove otherwise.

Live and let live, or sooner or later someone will come kick your ass.

i know im completely missing your point but beating the game on legendary single player is easy...... its the easiest of the 3 halos to do so.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

11 May 2008 at 04:32 - 115

OP: This is very simple. There are players that are very good at PvP. There are players that are very good at PvE. Each requires a very different mentality for success and significant time investment, so it's rare that you encounter players that are good at both. I'm not aware of anyone that has managed to concurrently do amazing things in both types of play.

With skill usually comes ego. With ego comes not listening to others. This is a problem in both communities.

Further, you've got a PvP community whose top players are used to filtering out the 'noise' of comments from inferior players that they do not respect (often rightfully so - there's a lot of idiocy in the lower echelons of the PvP community). This community is coupled with a PvE community that feels underappreciated and scorned, particularly given that members know they can do challenging things that the 'leet' PvP-ers cannot.

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

Wasn't that they were bad at the game; it was that several members had short attention spans and that several just didn't know the ins and outs of PvE in general. It was a good thing that they were mostly a gracious bunch that likes to succeed, or it could have gotten ugly. Instead, they realized that they were deficient, took instruction well, and completed the mission while generally playing like a mediocre PUG.

All told, this is a recipe for conflict. Doesn't have to be this way, but community relations invariably tend to play to the lowest common denominator in both communities - which often happens in life generally.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

11 May 2008 at 04:52 - 116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

My analogy was to show that PvE and PvP might as well be two different sports. However, let's use your example for the sake of argument. If the goal of the two aspects of playing (beat a mission vs. beat an opposing team) are different, why are even bothering to compare them?

thats teh whole point of comparing...lookin at the differences (and similarities)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

This is very simple. There are players that are very good at PvP. There are players that are very good at PvE. Each requires a very different mentality for success and significant time investment, so it's rare that you encounter players that are good at both.

no its not that simple

pve requires a simpler mentality and a lesser time investment
thats y pvp'rs can spend less time on pve and still be decent at it
pve'rs will have to spend a lot more time and effort to be decent at pvp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

lemmie aks u this, was it their first time doin the deep?
if u take an experienced pve'r, and have them do the deep for the very first time, it too would prolly produce similar results
however a pve'r tryin to fill in the roll of a pvp'r in a high-end pvp match for the first time will prolly have more disasterous results

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

11 May 2008 at 05:10 - 117

The two most common phrases I come across in PVE and PVP

PVE: (when mission or quest is completed successfully) wow you all are great, good work, good job, I'm adding you to my friends list.

PVP: when things go bad: "You all SUCK!" "Buncha idiot noobs" "Worst pvp players I ever saw". "You all need to go back to PVE".

PVE: when things go bad: "You all SUCK!" "You stupid noobs", "Idiots", "Morons", "Dumba**es", "You are all retarded","PUGS suck and all of them are iditos"
[Now I ask you do attitudes like that strike you as someone who is good at what they do in the game?? I've found more people who are actually worse players than those they complain about when they use these particular exclamations]

One thing I notice also between both, not one time does the complainer EVER take responsibility for the fail even when it's clearly some of their fault if not all of their fault. lol I've seen monks get blamed for everything, but, did anyone go back and protect the monk from getting banged on by 3 hammer warriors? nooooooooooo lol Like I said earlier I read a lot of people saying how good they are, but, I'm seeing a lot of people who ain't 1/2 as good as they say they are when it really gets down to it. Those that THINK they are elite like to talk a lot of smack online where of course it can't be proven. Heck I can do that. I'm the greatest player in GW's but I won't waste my time in silly childish guilds or playing GvG. See? How easy that is to say and nobody can disprove it.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

11 May 2008 at 05:27 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

pve requires a simpler mentality and a lesser time investment
thats y pvp'rs can spend less time on pve and still be decent at it
pve'rs will have to spend a lot more time and effort to be decent at pvp

All dead wrong, stereotypical thinking. PvE doesn't require a 'simpler' mentality, but it does require tolerance for different unpleasantness.

Couple of years ago, I used to monk HA extensively and guest top 100 GvG regularly. To play top-end PvP, you have to have a high tolerance for abuse and idiocy in Vent. Immaturity tends to run deep in the PvP community, because of the demographic that can commit to playing daily.

By contrast, to play top-end PvE, you have to have a high tolerance for repetitive activities. Gameplay changes incrementally, as small variances can yield lots of time savings - and therefore more efficient outputs.

Honestly, it took about the same period of time (2 months) to become excellent at backlining as it did to master all of the more challenging aspects of PvE: tanking, solo farm, running Droks, etc. It's a lot easier to backline PvE...if and only if you have competent aggro play from your group. A dozen Hard Mode monsters can put out a lot more pressure than 8 humans; good team play can make that pressure predictable and therefore manageable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

lemmie aks u this, was it their first time doin the deep?
if u take an experienced pve'r, and have them do the deep for the very first time, it too would prolly produce similar results
however a pve'r tryin to fill in the roll of a pvp'r in a high-end pvp match for the first time will prolly have more disasterous results

For several of them it was their first time playing The Deep. However, you can infer from the fact that it was their first time playing The Deep that they were NOT new to PvE. Your analogy fails.

Taking a top 200 player and sticking them into a top 5-10 GvG team is likely to suck a top 5-10 group down to the level of about a top 30-50 group these days. There have been times when the pool of top end players was deeper, and this might have dragged a top 5-10 guild down to playing like a top 75-100 guild.

That's bad, but not disastrous.

Overall, your post fails. You make unfounded assertions and expect me to take them on faith. Try backing up your points with evidence?

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

11 May 2008 at 05:33 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

One thing I notice also between both, not one time does the complainer EVER take responsibility for the fail even when it's clearly some of their fault if not all of their fault.

Yup, biggest problem in the community. There's only one solution to that problem - rigid discipline. Anyone that is consistently like that, no matter how skilled, has to be banished from play with your group.

What stinks is the only effective solution to that problem: to deal with it for months on end while you manage the necessary accomplishments to be able to replace highly skilled whiners with similarly skilled non-whiners. (Good players don't join you if you don't have something to offer, but once you reach the tipping point...they start banging down the door.)

Worse, then you have to upkeep the situation. This requires playing enough to keep everyone's attention and turning on people that become whiners and complainers without pity or mercy. Certainly, you try to work out those situations at the level of friendship first, but if that fails...you're doing your entire group a disservice by not solving the problem. That's poor leadership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaladrielMoloch

The true problem is when people think they are good running builds that work in PvE but any person with a brain in PvP will counter it. For example a 10 second spike is crap or standing in AoE is moronic.

Do you observe HA? People stand in AoE all the time these days. Even on "good" teams by today's standards. Bad play is everywhere.

Did you know that a spike with an 8 second recharge is one of the most successful builds in the history of HA? Took two nerfs of the Necro primary attribute to kill it, and even THEN it still rises from the ashes periodically.

TheHaxor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2007

two

W/N

11 May 2008 at 05:38 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

Haxor will lead you to victory.

He's not kidding. We're talking some of the most famous players in the history of the game.